cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tanken on February 14, 2014, 11:07:28 pm

Title: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 14, 2014, 11:07:28 pm
With the recent changes to Master of the Field (MOTF) I see no reason why Ladders should not be implemented back into the Mod. The main reason they were removed was the abuse resulting in late-round camping of roof tops--but the MOTF change removes that problem. There have been hundreds of statements in server about Bringing Back Ladders, I would like to start a petition for Admins to reinstate them.


Pros:

Cons:


Recommendations:


I would LOVE to hear the Community's input on Bringing Back Ladders. We need this Dynamic part of gameplay back. This suggestion is primarily geared towards Battle. I would implement it in Battle Servers first and see if it can work--then possibly consider taking it to Siege (some maps may be mega-broken with the low populations and use of ladders on Siege).

Sign the Petition, and please Admins see this as a true request and suggestion and not a slight to bring back what was previously viewed as a Trolly Element to the game. Ladders need to be reinstated and given a purpose in our glorious mod once again.



Signed,

Tanken_KUTT



If you Support, please place this image in your Signature or Avatar on the Forums.

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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Life on February 14, 2014, 11:10:56 pm
Signed,

Assassin_Life
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 14, 2014, 11:11:43 pm
Signed,

No Fun Allowed Anders.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Pistachio on February 14, 2014, 11:11:55 pm
Signed,

Pistachio
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Johammeth on February 14, 2014, 11:12:05 pm
I am defending the [L]adders!
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: oreshy on February 14, 2014, 11:12:08 pm
...this would fits to a certain theme.

...to deploy ladders was a strategically part of any prior battles in the medieval past, this is historically authentic.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: phnxhdsn on February 14, 2014, 11:12:47 pm
Ditto
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Sauce on February 14, 2014, 11:13:29 pm
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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kamirane on February 14, 2014, 11:15:22 pm
i am totally against it... oh wait... i am not.

+1

dont forget about the poll, more + than votes....
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: dynamike on February 14, 2014, 11:26:16 pm
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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: San on February 14, 2014, 11:27:06 pm
I think 12 ladders on a map is too much for battle, I would much prefer 3-4 per team.

I also think the team destroying their own ladders should be addressed. Perhaps make ladders unable to be destroyed by the team that threw it. Makes breaking ladders to otherwise inaccessible areas the folly of the other team (and hilarious if it happens).
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: zagibu on February 14, 2014, 11:28:24 pm
Remove the largest ladders, and make the others 1, 2, 3, 4 slots respectively.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kafein on February 14, 2014, 11:28:31 pm
Whoever upvoted this either forgot what was it really like either is ranged.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kamirane on February 14, 2014, 11:30:07 pm
I am defending the [L]adders!

Wow, you are multitasking. u can defend the stairs AND the Ladders at same time :D
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Life on February 14, 2014, 11:33:33 pm
Whoever upvoted this either forgot what was it really like either is ranged.

you see...

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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 14, 2014, 11:34:21 pm
Whoever upvoted this either forgot what was it really like either is ranged.

But you forget that we had no remedy for this. Read my suggestions, you will see that we can have the best of both worlds, all it needs is the devs and balancers taking what I said into consideration and formulating a plan that everyone is comfortable with. These are just a basis for the argument to bring them back. Trust me, I am not ranged nor is 95% of my clan--but this Mod is missing this element of gameplay. It needs something like this back, and we have these old glorious items collecting dust and decay yet they could bring a whole new level of enjoyment back to the mod especially because there is a built in counter to this now.

Also, if you are downvoting me as opposed to using the poll; Go fuck yourself with a ladder.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kafein on February 14, 2014, 11:35:44 pm
you see...

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Flags won't change the fact that ladders bring nothing to anybody except people that camp roofs. I prefer to be able to use cover, thank you.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: XyNox on February 14, 2014, 11:36:11 pm
I would really like to see ladders back but at the same time I cant forget what they did to siege. Even if there were just 4 attackers working together and ninja cap the flag 4 times in a row with ladders, defenders would still not adapt and will continue to fight at the front walls. It made maplayouts pointless in some cases.

You're right Tank, didn't read OP carefully enough. My apologies.

I also think the team destroying their own ladders should be addressed. Perhaps make ladders unable to be destroyed by the team that threw it. Makes breaking ladders to otherwise inaccessible areas the folly of the other team (and hilarious if it happens).

Sadly people would abuse this to troll their team as in blocking passages, trapping teammates etc.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 14, 2014, 11:38:15 pm
I would really like to see ladders back but at the same time I cant forget what they did to siege. Even if there were just 4 attackers working together and ninja cap the flag 4 times in a row with ladders, defenders would still not adapt and will continue to fight at the front walls. It made maplayouts pointless in some cases.

Sadly people would abuse this to troll their team as in blocking passages, trapping teammates etc.

Refer to my original post, I said they would not work for Siege at this given time due to lower population in Siege and the current layout of most maps.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Life on February 14, 2014, 11:39:32 pm
Refer to my original post, I said they would not work for Siege at this given time due to lower population in Siege and the current layout of most maps.
actually, its just NA siege thats dead. EU siege is well alive. Lucky EU's.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 14, 2014, 11:44:12 pm
Whoever upvoted this either forgot what was it really like either is ranged.

I didn't forget what it was like, and I am not/was not ranged.  MOTF negates archers camping rooftops.

I also like  San's suggestion, where only the enemy team can break the ladder (But I doubt that's possible).  Or only allowing a certain amount of ladders to be thrown at any given time (like how Strat limits the amount of ladders that can be thrown and ladders thrown afterwards just disappear). 
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: protox2k on February 14, 2014, 11:47:46 pm
And let it be possible to loom ladders to add more hitpoints to it :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kafein on February 14, 2014, 11:49:25 pm
I didn't forget what it was like, and I am not/was not ranged.  MOTF negates archers camping rooftops.

You are saying ladders will not hurt. That's not true. They will hurt regardless, making some classes invulnerable to others and able to attack almost anywhere on the map at the same time. Said classes don't need any help getting to vantage points anyway at the moment. Which brings me to my second point: what is the positive impact of ladders? Would I use ladders? No I wouldn't, what is the use of a ladder to me, or any melee or cav player for that matter? Bringing back ladders would be a purely negative change.

But hey whatever, add ladders to battle mode, I don't really care. Maybe that will actually bring more melee and less ranged to siege.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 14, 2014, 11:58:06 pm
Well for the most part I don't even really like maps that have buildings in them.  I think those are "siege" maps to me, not battle maps.  Battle maps are open field maps, that require use of terrain if you want to get any advantages over your enemy (and obviously teamwork/tactics/formations, etc). 

Adding ladders is going to get archers off the ground and less vulnerable to me (lancer cav), so that's a negative for me, positive for them. 

There's nothing that would benefit me from archers being able to go on rooftops, it would only hurt my chances to kill them.  I still think it should be brought back because MOTF should (in theory) allow melee to win rounds if archers want to camp on a rooftop. 
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Life on February 14, 2014, 11:59:18 pm
You are saying ladders will not hurt. That's not true. They will hurt regardless, making some classes invulnerable to others and able to attack almost anywhere on the map at the same time. Said classes don't need any help getting to vantage points anyway at the moment. Which brings me to my second point: what is the positive impact of ladders? Would I use ladders? No I wouldn't, what is the use of a ladder to me, or any melee or cav player for that matter? Bringing back ladders would be a purely negative change.

But hey whatever, add ladders to battle mode, I don't really care. Maybe that will actually bring more melee and less ranged to siege.
Well, archers can't use ladders, most already have full slots.
So, if you wanted to help out your team, you could bring a ladder (since you are a melee player you most likely have a spare slot or 2), place it on a nice roof to get some cover fire.

What would YOU get outta that? Maybe because of that well strategically placed ladder of yours, you could win the round and you gain a multi.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kafein on February 15, 2014, 12:02:02 am
Well, archers can't use ladders, most already have full slots.
So, if you wanted to help out your team, you could bring a ladder (since you are a melee player you most likely have a spare slot or 2), place it on a nice roof to get some cover fire.

What would YOU get outta that? Maybe because of that well strategically placed ladder of yours, you could win the round and you gain a multi.

Or, I don't be an asshole to the other players and let ranged scum deal with their own problems. I'm always there if they need to be shield bashed down those rooftops if need be.

This is called cooperation. If every sane player does the same, we all win.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Teeth on February 15, 2014, 12:02:22 am
For those who still haven't realized it, on the subject of ladders there is a strong correlation between having a positive opinion of ladders and being NA, similarly there is a strong correlation between having a negative opinion of ladders and being EU.

The removal of deployable ladders is literally my most celebrated change in the history of this mod and there are many people who agree with me. As far as I know we have more archers and crossbowmen on this side of the pond and I have heard many an NA say our archers are better. I think our ranged are also bigger my old friends on average. Ladders on EU were unbearable. I don't see how giving ranged relative immunity from infantry and complete immunity from cav is in any way a justifiable piece of game design, reducing any round to capture the flag is not a solution whatsoever for my experience with ladders. Seeing as you all believe it is confirms my believe that NA's experience with ladders is something quite different from the turd we have had here.

In short, you won't understand our opinion, we won't understand your opinion. Don't bother arguing about it please. Give NA ladders for all I care, but keep them the fuck out of EU.

Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Grumbs on February 15, 2014, 12:07:31 am
Ladders could be great fun and made the maps more dynamic and added more tactical options for players.

But ranged made them something that should never be reintroduced to Battle unless we had some kind of cap on ranged. Flags aren't going to change the situation, you will still get the laziest players that don't care about anything but their own amusement, shooting people that don't shoot back while in a nearly inaccessible place
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: dynamike on February 15, 2014, 12:16:06 am
I like the idea, especially with the addendums that San and zagibu made:

Limiting the ladder height, availability and especially increasing slots will make the use of them a real teamwork undertaking. Think about it: archers with a longbow and 2 sets of arrows (or a smaller bow and a melee weapon) will hardly have any slots left to bring a ladder and need to rely on their team to bring one along.

The team members having slots available to carry ladders will likely be melee heroes and will only bring them if they see a benefit in getting their team into advantageous spots. Again, this encourages teamwork and would be reducing the large amounts of team members running off on their own.

I'd say let's give it a shot, it's always good to switch things up once in a while.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Latvian on February 15, 2014, 12:19:17 am
signed,
entire community.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: _GTX_ on February 15, 2014, 12:32:18 am
For those who still haven't realized it, on the subject of ladders there is a strong correlation between having a positive opinion of ladders and being NA, similarly there is a strong correlation between having a negative opinion of ladders and being EU.

The removal of deployable ladders is literally my most celebrated change in the history of this mod and there are many people who agree with me. As far as I know we have more archers and crossbowmen on this side of the pond and I have heard many an NA say our archers are better. I think our ranged are also bigger my old friends on average. Ladders on EU were unbearable. I don't see how giving ranged relative immunity from infantry and complete immunity from cav is in any way a justifiable piece of game design, reducing any round to capture the flag is not a solution whatsoever for my experience with ladders. Seeing as you all believe it is confirms my believe that NA's experience with ladders is something quite different from the turd we have had here.

In short, you won't understand our opinion, we won't understand your opinion. Don't bother arguing about it please. Give NA ladders for all I care, but keep them the fuck out of EU.
This. Stay the fuck out of EU, but you are welcome to do it in NA. You clearly dont have the same experience with ranged, as we have. I am already being a little bitch trying to hide from ranged, whenever i play on EU 1, because i can not get to them without being killed.

PS: Since EU and NA have conflicting opinions on this subject, you should probably make a poll for only one of the two.

PS2: In my opinion i would prefer implementing ladders in siege if anything, since it would be a bonus for everyone. It would also make siege a little more dynamic, instead of walking up the same ladder and getting chopped to pieces by 10 weapons waiting for you.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: ARN_ on February 15, 2014, 12:35:06 am
This. Stay the fuck out of EU, but you are welcome to do it in NA. You clearly dont have the same experience with ranged, as we have. I am already being a little bitch trying to hide from ranged, whenever i play on EU 1, because i can not get to them without being killed.

PS: Since EU and NA have conflicting opinions on this subject, you should probably make a poll for only one of the two.
Shut up GTX and bring back ladders! Bring back some fun!
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 15, 2014, 12:36:24 am
Ah, I wasn't aware of such the contradicting opinions between NA and EU. Most of the problems NA had with it were camping related and delaying--not so much that it gave the archers an overpowerment. With our map rotation, there's only a hand full of maps it could effectively make a difference on, but perhaps we don't share the same map cycle currently?

Anyway, it's too late to accurate gauge the poll between NA and EU. I would love to see from a Dev standpoint if we can possibly get it back--perhaps try it in NA (we need the population boost) and see how it goes since we seem more receptive to them coming back as opposed to the EU servers.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Armycook_of_KSantiago on February 15, 2014, 12:36:39 am
signed
Roof Restaurant Lead Chef
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: LordBerenger on February 15, 2014, 12:59:46 am

(click to show/hide)
WHAT THE FUCK..is THAT!?
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Miwiw on February 15, 2014, 01:01:06 am
And if you play a map with many houses and the flags spawn in the middle of those? That's surely fun for the team that doesn't camp the roofs. :P
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: _GTX_ on February 15, 2014, 01:01:20 am
WHAT THE FUCK..is THAT!?
That's a cat.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: San on February 15, 2014, 01:46:00 am

Sadly people would abuse this to troll their team as in blocking passages, trapping teammates etc.

That may be possible on the 2 maps with tunnels, but that's what admins are for. I also think stakes are worse, yet they are abused very rarely. Definitely not perfect, but it would be interesting if used correctly. Storming their ladder or waiting them out would both be strategies with their pros and cons. I always found it silly to have to bring another ladder to reach the enemy when we all know they're going to break it anyways.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Torben on February 15, 2014, 02:11:35 am
ladders seam to me a relic of times long gone,  where flamberge wielding man-women  archers where ladderpulted off of long wide stone bridges,  my horse ate faces and my lance wasnt overly nerfed.  archers headshooting people from spawn to spawn,  captain georges flamberging through hoards of enemies,  cooties dancing fairylike through flocks of cut down men,  nakid dima urbans running about,  superbeast crushing skulls suited in a real black armor and a dehorsed finn clumsily swinging his looney toons axe.

fond memories in a seasoning mind. 
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Xeen on February 15, 2014, 02:32:29 am
It sounds fun.  I'd still want them to take motf further, though.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Fips on February 15, 2014, 02:42:55 am
Oh god, the horrors...
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: LordBerenger on February 15, 2014, 03:53:16 am
Bring back ladders but as soon as someone with a bow or crossbow climbs on them he/she insta-dies.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: bavvoz on February 15, 2014, 10:45:35 am
For me that would be killing blow to eu1. I try to protect our ranged very often with stakes and spears but this would be to lame. Shooting slow moving targets who cant shoot back from a place where they cant touch u, what would that be good for?
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tovi on February 15, 2014, 10:54:19 am
4 slots for ladders sounds good. You can still hold a 0 slot 1H and grab some weapon on the ground.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Hecur on February 15, 2014, 12:35:43 pm
Signed
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Prpavi on February 15, 2014, 01:04:23 pm
Seriously... No
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Voncrow on February 15, 2014, 05:04:21 pm
Personally, I don't see the point of ladders on battle, laddering up to roofs does seem unfair to me. So allow them on duel(already used for practicing building why not ladder throwing) and siege. It would make siege a lot more dynamic, not just people camping specific spots, we'd actually need to watch the rest of the wall. I know I would find siege a lot more fun, and the 4 slots idea from some guy was also good.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Keshian on February 15, 2014, 08:39:51 pm
Only fun thing about battles anymore would be ladders - otherwise boring and repetitive.  We desperately need ladders.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tydeus on February 15, 2014, 08:55:35 pm
Maybe after we manage to fix MotF not ending rounds 1/3 of the time. Until then, it can't really be considered. Although archers have been nerfed in a few ways since the last time we had ladders in battle, they're currently much more accurate and also dealing slightly more damage than they were back then. Weight isn't much of nerf when you're on top of a house camping, you're essentially just a turret at that point.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: MURDERTRON on February 15, 2014, 09:31:28 pm
Maybe after we manage to fix MotF not ending rounds 1/3 of the time. Until then, it can't really be considered. Although archers have been nerfed in a few ways since the last time we had ladders in battle, they're currently much more accurate and also dealing slightly more damage than they were back then. Weight isn't much of nerf when you're on top of a house camping, you're essentially just a turret at that point.

But horse archers are OK.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tydeus on February 15, 2014, 09:36:54 pm
Define "OK". They did just get nerfed harder than any other class with the most recent patch.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Leesin on February 15, 2014, 09:58:17 pm
Horse archers are the most nerfed build in the game so yeah they're more than ok.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Moncho on February 15, 2014, 10:25:11 pm
Nostalgia goggles are a very bad thing to see the world through. Honestly, I still sometimes have nightmares about ladders in battle.
About motf, even if it changes to say 10 people remaining, what if there are 12 people on various roofs? It happens more often than not.
What about staying on top of the building after the ladder gets destroyed? What if a friendly destroys it? What if?...
On paper, they may be a great idea, but not with this community that will exploit every single minor detail they can
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Snufalufagus on February 15, 2014, 10:31:54 pm
Beringer genious!
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: _GTX_ on February 15, 2014, 10:39:58 pm
Only fun thing about battles anymore would be ladders - otherwise boring and repetitive.  We desperately need ladders.
And which class do you mostly play again?
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Andswaru on February 15, 2014, 10:57:09 pm
IF ladders ever return, im preety sure 100% of my time would then definatly be devoted to warthunder or paradox strategy trash.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Thranduil on February 16, 2014, 12:51:24 am
Let me look at this from a map maker's perspective.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kafein on February 16, 2014, 01:24:43 am
Let me look at this from a map maker's perspective.
(click to show/hide)

Just don't put any building or tree on battle maps, as any map maker worth his salt would do.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 16, 2014, 01:37:09 am
Maybe after we manage to fix MotF not ending rounds 1/3 of the time. Until then, it can't really be considered. Although archers have been nerfed in a few ways since the last time we had ladders in battle, they're currently much more accurate and also dealing slightly more damage than they were back then. Weight isn't much of nerf when you're on top of a house camping, you're essentially just a turret at that point.

Yeah the MOTF bug is annoying as hell with it getting stuck. I still think that Ladders (at this point I'd separate it to EU and NA if they want it or not) should strongly be considered being brought back by the Dev team. Ladders may be nostalgic, but they're also becoming dust-collectors on our c-rpg page. Many new players see Ladders and other Siege Equipment items and buy them--only to find out they can only use them in Duel of all places :/

If balanced correctly with the current MOTF setup and class balances, and with potential changes to the ladder slot system as Zagibu mentioned briefly and a limit on them per-side--they could be done. I would not consider it a moot point or dead cause at this point--if anything it should be something for the Dev Team to discuss and see if there is a good, solid way to re-implement them and make it optional for the separate servers.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Fips on February 16, 2014, 01:40:37 am
Just don't put any building or tree on battle maps, as any map maker worth his salt would do.

Battle maps have been made and edited without having to worry about the ladders for like 2 years now. This is far beyond the simple motf change i had to do one or two patches ago. If there is anyone out there who would want to edit like 80 maps just to bring those goddamn ladders back, sure. I know i won't.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 16, 2014, 02:26:42 am
Battle maps have been made and edited without having to worry about the ladders for like 2 years now. This is far beyond the simple motf change i had to do one or two patches ago. If there is anyone out there who would want to edit like 80 maps just to bring those goddamn ladders back, sure. I know i won't.
Come on Head Scene Editor/Bad map selector Fips!

Might want to get a head start Fips, the polls seem to indicate a want for them ;)
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Fips on February 16, 2014, 02:33:19 am
Come on Head Scene Editor/Bad map selector Fips!

Might want to get a head start Fips, the polls seem to indicate a want for them ;)

No, sorry. Imo the disadvantages of bringing ladders back outweigh the advantages. If the dev and unbalance team would be all in to bring them back, then i might do it. Only thing i could see getting back without causing too much trouble in the maps themselves would be the small ladders and only them. But from a players perspective i'd still veto against even the small ladders only every time.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on February 16, 2014, 04:24:24 am
I have fond memories of all the hilarious hijinks you could do with ladders. They can be used to create deeper strategy and promote team play.

People would also use them to troll their own team or maybe even the entire server! Slow people from leaving spawn, fling allied players skyward, going outside of regular map bounds, etc. Why you gotta shoot yourself in the foot, crpg?  :cry:
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tydeus on February 16, 2014, 04:37:04 am
Yeah the MOTF bug is annoying as hell with it getting stuck. I still think that Ladders (at this point I'd separate it to EU and NA if they want it or not) should strongly be considered being brought back by the Dev team. Ladders may be nostalgic, but they're also becoming dust-collectors on our c-rpg page. Many new players see Ladders and other Siege Equipment items and buy them--only to find out they can only use them in Duel of all places :/

If balanced correctly with the current MOTF setup and class balances, and with potential changes to the ladder slot system as Zagibu mentioned briefly and a limit on them per-side--they could be done. I would not consider it a moot point or dead cause at this point--if anything it should be something for the Dev Team to discuss and see if there is a good, solid way to re-implement them and make it optional for the separate servers.
We talked about it for a bit like two or three weeks ago, talked about it again, briefly, thanks to this thread. It's being considered, but if I'm being honest and open here, I don't think it's likely to happen. If we decide to reintroduce ladders, it will be because we're sure it won't cause issues and will therefore plan on it never needing to be removed again. With steep requirements like these, it's hard for me to imagine cRPG with ladders on battle once again.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 16, 2014, 04:49:48 am
One can dream, and it's obvious a large chunk of the community wants Ladders back. As has been discussed--the opinion of them between EU and NA are vastly different in a lot of areas. But since most of the Devs are EU, the decision to ever do anything about bringing them back will likely remain there with that opinion siding with EU.


Simply a discussion though, but I think it largely shows how many people want them back via the poll and it is something that Devs should strongly consider for NA (at the very least). Give us back Fun. Right now the Maps feel too monotonous and grind-like. The combat happens in the same place almost every time due to how the maps are designed and played, ladders throw a kink in that and re-introduce an element that stirs the pot.


Food for thought.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: dynamike on February 16, 2014, 06:22:32 am
One can dream, and it's obvious a large chunk of the community wants Ladders back. As has been discussed--the opinion of them between EU and NA are vastly different in a lot of areas. But since most of the Devs are EU, the decision to ever do anything about bringing them back will likely remain there with that opinion siding with EU.


Simply a discussion though, but I think it largely shows how many people want them back via the poll and it is something that Devs should strongly consider for NA (at the very least). Give us back Fun. Right now the Maps feel too monotonous and grind-like. The combat happens in the same place almost every time due to how the maps are designed and played, ladders throw a kink in that and re-introduce an element that stirs the pot.


Food for thought.

Yeah that wouldn't work though. Maps are made for both the NA and EU rotation - you would have to separate them them completely AND then have someone who optimizes the maps solely for the NA side... this would also mean every time new maps come out, someone needs to adjust and balance them differently. Not likely for that to happen buddy, sorry  :(
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Jona on February 16, 2014, 08:06:27 am
Can we just have our little tea party and separate from the euro's already?

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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Teeth on February 16, 2014, 02:26:29 pm
Might want to get a head start Fips, the polls seem to indicate a want for them ;)
Classic, this is like the third time some NA goes 'if we get a majority on a poll it shall be done' and gets all smug about it. If you haven't figured it out yet, the dev team does not work that way. If you ever want to get anything done in this game you should probably quit feeling so arrogantly entitled to tell the devs what to do.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kafein on February 16, 2014, 02:37:27 pm
The thing is, correctly editing those maps would be equivalent of not allowing ladders at all. All roofs should be walled off in order to prevent roofcamping, and roofcamping is the only use of ladders anyway.

Think about it. What you are suggesting is "Bring back Roofcamping".
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Mr.K. on February 16, 2014, 02:55:25 pm
Hell no.

Roof camping is already a big enough problem when guys like Shokoshugi spend the first 30 seconds of every map jumping onto a roof and being untouchable by any other hard counters but other ranged. Most of us don't even know how to get on those roofs and doing it while being shot by an archer or three makes it so much more annoying... Flags might fix this unless they spawned below the archer roofs on most maps...

You can't blame the archers though for looking protection wherever they can. I blame Fips instead.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: darmaster on February 16, 2014, 03:40:45 pm
bring back winner taco

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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Grumbs on February 16, 2014, 04:35:50 pm
The main fun of ladders for me was being able to make a choice about how to progress through the map with a team. There were maps were plopping down a ladder meant you then had a better route to the enemy from your side of the map, or if a team was pushing a certain way each time you could put down a ladder and cut them off etc

Ideally we should come up with ways to simulate that but without it necessarily being with ladders. So dynamic maps that can be changed in different ways depending on which side you are on or which route you take. So maybe some destructible walls or gates you can open, areas that can be removed but only from one side. Kind of like you could in Red Orchestra: Ostfront on some maps

So ways to change the way the map is played each round that don't necessarily allow a team to camp high up, but just adds more tactical options and routes through the map
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Legion_PL on February 16, 2014, 08:17:12 pm
Ladders = <3 !


+1 ;***
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 16, 2014, 09:06:33 pm
Classic, this is like the third time some NA goes 'if we get a majority on a poll it shall be done' and gets all smug about it. If you haven't figured it out yet, the dev team does not work that way. If you ever want to get anything done in this game you should probably quit feeling so arrogantly entitled to tell the devs what to do.

Obviously it was a joke, Teeth, you clown. I'm not telling Devs what to do, I've said all along this is a suggestion and the poll indicates that a good amount of players want it back. I was fucking with Fips because he said he wouldn't do it. Get off your High Horse Teeth. I'm not being smug, if anything I'm being humble with my approach to how this should be handled and letting the community weigh in pros and cons. Puhleez.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Ubereem on February 16, 2014, 11:39:18 pm
i vote yes because it would greatly help NA siege which right now is shite
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: protox2k on February 17, 2014, 01:58:31 am
i vote yes because it would greatly help NA siege which right now is shite

I vote they only do it for siege and maybe DTV
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Osiris on February 17, 2014, 02:03:34 am
not on NA only EU! siege would make for lulz

As famous Creedence clearwater said

Some folks are born to wave the flag,
Ooh, they're red, white and blue.

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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Jeraz on February 17, 2014, 09:34:21 am
not on NA only EU! siege would make for lulz

As famous Creedence clearwater said

Some folks are born to wave the flag,
Ooh, they're red, white and blue.

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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: tisjester on February 17, 2014, 03:29:02 pm
Aw-men  :oops:
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Homey_D_Clown on February 18, 2014, 02:17:56 am
Ladders made the game much more fun, bring em back!
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: LEKIS on February 18, 2014, 08:32:04 am
I have thought that something was missing for a year or two...
But that it would be ladders i never knew.

BBL2014


Signed,

Lekismurderer
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Corwin on February 18, 2014, 08:46:13 am
Hi,

It's signed,

I can only approved.

Once again the time is rebellious and servers the ladders deserves!
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tzar on February 18, 2014, 09:49:21 am
Fuck off!!!

Ladders make ranged immortal, it was bullshit when we had ladders on battle server...

But sure if NA wants it on their server go ahead, but spare EU

Maybe after we manage to fix MotF not ending rounds 1/3 of the time. Until then, it can't really be considered. Although archers have been nerfed in a few ways since the last time we had ladders in battle, they're currently much more accurate and also dealing slightly more damage than they were back then. Weight isn't much of nerf when you're on top of a house camping, you're essentially just a turret at that point.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

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 :arrow: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/remove-ladders-from-battle-14774/

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 :arrow: http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/the-state-of-crpg/

I could go one an one n one... more screen shots of ranged players farming kills, an half the server cant touch em.... this have been discussed to death...

But if you really wanna add ladders back in, an make the final death blow to EU1 go ahead...


If NA wants it back go ahead but dont bring this shit to EU1

Or you could host your own server with polestagger, old lance angle, ladder pulting an roof camping huehue
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Corwin on February 18, 2014, 10:01:51 am
Well, the point is THERE IS NO TEAMWORK 95% of time. Accept it. That's not gonna change. So the first picture is just a fantasy.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tzar on February 18, 2014, 10:09:34 am
fantasy.

Thinking that they will implement a tool to make ranged immortal to melee, an turn EU1 into a camping fest is fantasy...

Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Gurnisson on February 18, 2014, 03:33:31 pm
I don't see how giving ranged relative immunity from infantry and complete immunity from cav is in any way a justifiable piece of game design

Basically this.

Imagine being ranged and have cavalry with armours and horses that took absolutely no damage from ranged weapons. That's basically what ladders did balance-wise. Right now ranged and cav prey on eachother and I see nothing wrong about that.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Berserkadin on February 18, 2014, 03:38:57 pm
Ladder is serving tools of the most dynamic one in the battlefields of the past. Does not resolve a Grand cause, as was fighting sorrow in the groin tweak. In the brave fighter of great combinations of this mod and ass ladder brings many joys and tears. M0D is dead.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Prpavi on February 18, 2014, 04:03:33 pm
ok how about ladders only on NA servers and everybody is happy
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Sagar on February 18, 2014, 04:19:46 pm
I only remember that everyone abusing ladders.

Ladder spam siege madness (October, 2011)
(click to show/hide)


Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: _GTX_ on February 18, 2014, 04:25:53 pm
I only remember that everyone abusing ladders.

Ladder spam siege madness (October, 2011)
(click to show/hide)

Is that not the greys right beside it? If it is, then i am not surprised.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Tanken on February 18, 2014, 09:33:47 pm

I could go one an one n one... more screen shots of ranged players farming kills, an half the server cant touch em.... this have been discussed to death...

But if you really wanna add ladders back in, an make the final death blow to EU1 go ahead...


He could go one an one n one guys. Just playing Tzar. Glad to see screenshots still exist of ladders though.
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 10:08:31 pm
Is that not the greys right beside it? If it is, then i am not surprised.

Abuse the shit out of everything, because eastern bloc mentality
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 18, 2014, 10:42:40 pm
Abuse the shit out of everything, because eastern bloc mentality

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Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Nazurdin on February 19, 2014, 02:43:47 pm
http://nooooooooooooooo.com/
Title: Re: Bring back Ladders, Seriously..
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 22, 2014, 12:12:18 am
DO not Let the EU oppress NA! Bring back ladders to NA! :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: