cRPG

cRPG => Scene Editing => Topic started by: Falka on November 07, 2013, 11:05:30 pm

Title: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Falka on November 07, 2013, 11:05:30 pm
Yup, that's true, new DTV maps suck. They're all made with the same pattern; invisible walls everywhere and narrow passages which let us play in only one way: slaughter bots with overheads in one narrow gap. No more charging (invisble bariers basically everywhere), no more "trains" (did I mention about walls? bots can move only along corridors leading right to the virgin).

On a few maps there's even no place for everyone to fight, so when server is full half of the team can leech in peace cause gateways are too narrow to let everybody fight. Bah, in a few cases even archers can not shoot at bots cause there's no accessible roofs or some other platforms.

Fips, you said "no more abusing maps". According to me new maps mean no more variety and flexibilty, no more tactics, only endless spam in tiny passages.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on November 08, 2013, 02:46:35 am
But having Yaragar/Rizi/Istiniar almost 24/7 on the server didn't bother anyone either.
Like there were any other tactics than the ones you are using on the server now with the new maps and the ones that exploited huts/roofs/barns/fences. I'm just getting rid of the latter.

About that ranged aspect, i've seen 2 maps where they are completely useless and i'm going to fix that, but the rest of the maps are basically a ranged heaven.


And most invisible walls will stay. I'm not going to put some retarded walls, stakes or anything else where the invi walls are right now just because they shouldn't be invisible. Like a rounded circle of walls around the entrances to the chokepoints of the maps would look any good. People will get used to the placement of the walls and the maps won't look like shit.

Also i'd like to remind you that you should be happy that Shik and myself are actually working on the mode at all, because noone else gave two craps about it. I could have just gotten rid of the exploitable maps and be done with it as well. But no, instead of just letting Shik nerf the bots i decided to rework some maps and make new ones, so give me a fucking break, gosh. It's been on a testrun for not even a day and there is also EU7 with the old rotation ~_~
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Hellsing on November 08, 2013, 04:18:37 pm
Bots stuck on this map:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Falka on November 08, 2013, 06:27:49 pm
Also i'd like to remind you that you should be happy that Shik and myself are actually working on the mode at all, because noone else gave two craps about it.

so give me a fucking break, gosh.

I appreciate your work Fips, I really do, but you can not expect only praise :P I tried to keep my whinning at reasonable level and point out flaws in your work, so that you could improve it :P

Old maps aren't perfect, that's obvious, but I think they let us for more diversified approach. Mindless spam in narrow passages can be funny from time to tiem, but on all maps? Meh, not my cup of tea. Also, as I mentioned, a few maps don't let all players actually particpate in a fight. E.g. map borrowed from siege, flat village on a shore with liftgate in front and small passage on the left. When gate is closed there's room only for 3-4 melee players, the rest of them can not fight cause there's no place for it.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Uther Pendragon on November 08, 2013, 09:27:25 pm
I was sceptical about this new tight map-stuff, but when I saw the good ol' Sea Raid...
My eyes were sweating, I swear. Keep up the good work.

EDIT: After playing the new maps for quite a while, I have to say some are indeed broken, but some are brilliant. What is a perfect example of a balanced map are the Arena and the Sea Raid
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Sir_Hans on November 24, 2013, 12:51:15 am
I enjoy about half of the DTV maps and welcome a change of new maps.

But I do agree with everyone on that there shouldn't be invisible walls. When I did QA game testing contracts for EA and Namco that was a Class A or B bug... aka high priority to fix, whenever you ran into invisible collision on games.

I can see where your coming from it would look shitty with fences along all of the invisible walls on some of the maps. But if that's the case we need new maps with cliffs or very steep hills/ terrain along the invisible walls. There seems to be a lot of willing people to make DTV maps, Just tell them what you need is closed off "Corridor" type maps. Instead of picking up wide open maps and adding a ton of invisible collision (invisible walls) everywhere.

Ohyeah and that one corridor map with the single ballista and Steep Cliff on the left side needs an invisble wall near the AI spawn (or maybe there already is one and they spawn on the other side of it) either way that map needs a fix... There's always a bot or two going 50ft up the mountain side and is unreachable except for range.

Other than that I think maps are pretty good, there is a decent variety and I really like that one that puts the viscount indoor with enemies spawning above and going into the 2nd floor as well as on the beach running through the 1st floor door eventually... there should be more unique dtv maps like that one. (though there are some exploits on the map like running out behind one of the invisible wall/fences near the main building.


PS: Take out those trashy Helms Deeps maps... neither are fun, they both look like crap, and I hate them with every fiber of my being.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Razz on November 29, 2013, 04:17:57 pm
I must  say, those invisible maps are the most annoying, they block ypuff and basically get slaughtered by the bots.
It's like you are inviting us like ''wow look at all this room to play'', but yeah half the map is blocked off anyway..
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on November 30, 2013, 09:57:53 pm
On this map, the viscount spawns inside the wall sometimes and bots can't reach him.

And the map with the mountain road usually has the last bot stuck on the mountain until an archer shoots it or luckily it decides to come down after a while.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on December 07, 2013, 12:15:46 pm
But having Yaragar/Rizi/Istiniar almost 24/7 on the server didn't bother anyone either.
Like there were any other tactics than the ones you are using on the server now with the new maps and the ones that exploited huts/roofs/barns/fences. I'm just getting rid of the latter.

About that ranged aspect, i've seen 2 maps where they are completely useless and i'm going to fix that, but the rest of the maps are basically a ranged heaven.


And most invisible walls will stay. I'm not going to put some retarded walls, stakes or anything else where the invi walls are right now just because they shouldn't be invisible. Like a rounded circle of walls around the entrances to the chokepoints of the maps would look any good. People will get used to the placement of the walls and the maps won't look like shit.

Also i'd like to remind you that you should be happy that Shik and myself are actually working on the mode at all, because noone else gave two craps about it. I could have just gotten rid of the exploitable maps and be done with it as well. But no, instead of just letting Shik nerf the bots i decided to rework some maps and make new ones, so give me a fucking break, gosh. It's been on a testrun for not even a day and there is also EU7 with the old rotation ~_~

Did anyone actually complain about the rizi/instinar maps? Why do you feel like they were a problem?

I'm guessing people liked and exploited them because they gave a ton of xp. But not nearly the fuckton that the new map, where people make shieldswall at entrance to city give; that always fills the server; but is boring as hell. I don't see how it's a 'better' map than rizi or istinar?

Why is it such a binary choice? Can't we have both kinds of maps? Why not?

And I'm sorry but those invisible walls are fucking stupid, unintuitive, and bad game design. Put visible barriers up so we know where our boundaries are. It's impossible to memories all invisi-boundaries. I just don't understand your view on this at all... Aesthetics? Please.

Fips, do you play DTV?
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: MountedRhader on December 07, 2013, 01:06:06 pm
Did anyone actually complain about the rizi/instinar maps? Why do you feel like they were a problem?

I'm guessing people liked and exploited them because they gave a ton of xp. But not nearly the fuckton that the new map, where people make shieldswall at entrance to city give; that always fills the server; but is boring as hell. I don't see how it's a 'better' map than rizi or istinar?

Why is it such a binary choice? Can't we have both kinds of maps? Why not?

And I'm sorry but those invisible walls are fucking stupid, unintuitive, and bad game design. Put visible barriers up so we know where our boundaries are. It's impossible to memories all invisi-boundaries. I just don't understand your view on this at all... Aesthetics? Please.

Fips, do you play DTV?

This.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on December 07, 2013, 01:21:03 pm
The new maps are fine, except those wrong-placed spawn points, but it would also be nice to play on some open maps like the old ones, making sure they would have no access to rooves at all and no fences or any other type of exploitable object (forget about Yaragar, Rizi or Istiniar).
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 08, 2013, 01:45:52 am
Some of the new maps are great, some are absolute trash, I'll post a list with the maps I feel need change/removal and what.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Sharpe on December 08, 2013, 03:55:07 am

Fips, do you play DTV?

His clan has a server, that has to count for something right?
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on December 09, 2013, 09:33:53 pm
His clan has a server, where they all go and strategize like hardcore nerds and then expect everyone else who isn't in the same TS to copy them play-for-play. Because obviously everyone thinks just like the HRE and enjoys being pansies hiding behind shieldwalls and such instead of charging into the mindless slaughter that is DTV.



tl;dr HRE apparently doesn't know how to have fun, and simply made themselves a game mode to make their grind easier.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Dalfador on December 09, 2013, 11:11:16 pm
Giving my opinion on these forums is never something I have been fond of, but in this case, I feel it is necessary.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I hate the new DTV. The only reason I played it before was for the familiar community of DTV heroes and having to actually fight. NOT vertically swing between two shields or easily take down 2-3 enemies with a ballista. All of the XP and gold has attracted the worst part of the community and it is now filled with power gamers. I know from first hand experience. I have a friend, who shall remain anonymous, barely even touched DTV before this. Now he won't shut up about the fucking game even at school. He plays games to level up and be the best (power gamer), so no wonder why he loves this XP grind that some of you call a game.

I used to hop on cRPG daily and play DTV for an hour or two, and have played it for over 3 years. However, ever since the patch that brought these invisible funnels, shieldwalls every game, and a server full of power gamers, I fear I have lost taste for cRPG entirely. You have hurt not only me, but many others who loved this server for what it once was.

Good day.



Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on December 10, 2013, 12:31:04 am
Giving my opinion on these forums is never something I have been fond of, but in this case, I feel it is necessary.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I hate the new DTV. The only reason I played it before was for the familiar community of DTV heroes and having to actually fight. NOT vertically swing between two shields or easily take down 2-3 enemies with a ballista. All of the XP and gold has attracted the worst part of the community and it is now filled with power gamers. I know from first hand experience. I have a friend, who shall remain anonymous, barely even touched DTV before this. Now he won't shut up about the fucking game even at school. He plays games to level up and be the best (power gamer), so no wonder why he loves this XP grind that some of you call a game.

I used to hop on cRPG daily and play DTV for an hour or two, and have played it for over 3 years. However, ever since the patch that brought these invisible funnels, shieldwalls every game, and a server full of power gamers, I fear I have lost taste for cRPG entirely. You have hurt not only me, but many others who loved this server for what it once was.

Good day.

Totally this.

New DTV purely exists for the maps that give massive XP and money. I have made more money in new DTV since I don't know when... and yet, it lacks all the fun, and as you say Dalfador, camaraderie of old DTV. New DTV has attracted a different type of player. I find myself on Siege and Battle (god, I never thought that would happen) instead now. And only pop in to DTV to farm map Blank11.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Kirbyy on December 10, 2013, 02:32:59 am
Well I love it.  Call me a bundle of sticks, I don't care, I lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve the new DTV.  The old DTV consisted of using map bugs to grind xp on the rare but extremely easy maps.  This one actually requires a LITTLE bit of teamwork to actually succeed. So yeah, fuck that.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on December 10, 2013, 03:11:27 am
Well I love it.  Call me a bundle of sticks, I don't care, I lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve the new DTV.  The old DTV consisted of using map bugs to grind xp on the rare but extremely easy maps.  This one actually requires a LITTLE bit of teamwork lot of shielders to actually succeed. So yeah, fuck that.

Fixed.

Winning maps still involves a) boring ass shieldwalls, or b) exploits. Or else you die to the french ladies every time.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: MountedRhader on December 10, 2013, 05:32:11 am


tl;dr HRE apparently doesn't know how to have fun, and simply made themselves a game mode to make their grind easier.

Not only that, but that tard Fips even got his own character in a DTV wave. What the **** this isn't justice this is bullshit, he both aids in ruining DTV and gets his own ass in a DTV wave.

Well I love it.  Call me a bundle of sticks, I don't care, I lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve the new DTV.  The old DTV consisted of using map bugs to grind xp on the rare but extremely easy maps.  This one actually requires a LITTLE bit of teamwork to actually succeed. So yeah, fuck that.

I could write out a long, well-reasoned, fair, all-encompassing, indisputable contradiction to what you just said, but I'm not going to.


Instead I'll just say fuck you.


And Fips' aim was to improve the DTV community and make maps not exploitable. Well look at what you've done Fips. You've only changed the way the maps are exploited. And as if it were a hellish cherry on top your ilk have removed the fun maps which required REAL COHESION like Rizi and Old Istiniar, not simply hiding behind 2 goddamn shielders while the rest of us LEECH. 
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on December 10, 2013, 06:13:49 am
Oh wow.  :P
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Kirbyy on December 10, 2013, 06:22:05 am

And Fips' aim was to improve the DTV community and make maps not exploitable. Well look at what you've done Fips. You've only changed the way the maps are exploited. And as if it were a hellish cherry on top your ilk have removed the fun maps which required REAL COHESION like Rizi and Old Istiniar, not simply hiding behind 2 goddamn shielders while the rest of us LEECH.

And how is hiding behind shields exploiting?  You're using a tactic that's been used for THOUSANDS of years, sure it's quite odd that there's no way for the AI to push them back, but still it's somewhat realistic other than just walking backwards and swinging up.  That's not skill, that's somewhat from your own definition exploiting.  I for one prefer the arcade-ish feel of the game. To be blunt, you seem to be taking this way too seriously and won't let anyone voice their opinion other than the ones that support your own, you projecting asshole.  If you're so angry about how it's changed, why don't you make a fucking poll about it, instead of attacking one's views on an innovative update.  You're not the only fucking person on this planet you know.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Sharpe on December 10, 2013, 12:13:06 pm
Yeah but Kirby he's TheTeutonicPaladin, Righteous Defender of the Crossdressing Virgin, Self Proclaimed DTV LEGEND. Im pretty sure this guy knows what hes talking about.

In all seriousness I like the new DTV to some aspect, but would like to see some of the older maps in the rotation as well, it wouldnt be a bad thing to have some of the old with the new.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Uther Pendragon on December 10, 2013, 03:40:57 pm
FYI, it was Shiks idea to add Fips as a boss, not his own invention.
Shik - bots and stats
Fips - maps
While yeah, its all bad and bleh, I still love to see the Sea Raid map back again, even if retardedly closed from all sides. Always some sort of handicapped nostalgy :cry:
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on December 10, 2013, 05:13:02 pm
You can tell that this is a pretty serious issue when I find myself agreeing with Teuts and disagreeing with those that disagree with him.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on December 10, 2013, 09:27:24 pm
Yeah but Kirby he's TheTeutonicPaladin, Righteous Defender of the Crossdressing Virgin, Self Proclaimed DTV LEGEND. Im pretty sure this guy knows what hes talking about.

In all seriousness I like the new DTV to some aspect, but would like to see some of the older maps in the rotation as well, it wouldnt be a bad thing to have some of the old with the new.

Variety is the spice of life.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: defodijabox on December 10, 2013, 11:32:14 pm
not simply hiding behind 2 goddamn shielders while the rest of us LEECH.

Yeah because 20 dead people watching 2 pikers slowly kill all the bots from the other side of the fence was so much better. Yep, none of the dead people were leeching there, and that totally wasn't abuse either. Bring back the old DTV!!!! No abuse there ever!!

Fixed.

Winning maps still involves a) boring ass shieldwalls, or b) exploits. Or else you die to the french ladies every time.

New DTV does take a bit of teamwork, there's always that retard that backs up and gets everyone killed, so the whole team has to be on board with actually doing the sheildwall. Old DTV all it took was 1 guy with a pike on the other side of a fence
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Kirbyy on December 10, 2013, 11:51:58 pm
You can tell that this is a pretty serious issue when I find myself agreeing with Teuts and disagreeing with those that disagree with him.

Jona, the only use that HoC ever had out of DTV was recruiting noobs.  Stop finding away to interject yourself against me in all threads and get some friends.

I've barely seen you ever go on there, and to be quite honest all you do on here is -1 me on all my posts that you have no correlation with.  If you're going to agree with Paladin, atleast put SOME effort in proving that you actually give a shit.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Sharpe on December 11, 2013, 12:19:36 am
Jona, the only use that HoC ever had out of DTV was recruiting noobs.  Stop finding away to interject yourself against me in all threads and get some friends.

I've barely seen you ever go on there, and to be quite honest all you do on here is -1 me on all my posts that you have no correlation with.  If you're going to agree with Paladin, atleast put SOME effort in proving that you actually give a shit.

Actually Jona went on there quite abit, and in the past year or so I've been playing it with him you know how many people he recruited from there? 2. You know who they were? Gallonigher and Plumbo. But now since he transitioned more towards siege, and the fact that he hates the new DTV is the reason why he rarely comes on. And in all honesty from the way it looks your interjecting yourself against Jona. But thats from an outside opinion, and not from the internal IhateallHoCSpergLordz Point of View.

Back to the original topic.

Fuck the new DTV back with the old.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Kirbyy on December 11, 2013, 12:28:24 am
Honestly believe what you will, I really don't care.  I'm just pointing out the bullshit amongst the real ideas and perceptions.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on December 11, 2013, 12:55:08 am
Actually Jona went on there quite abit, and in the past year or so I've been playing it with him you know how many people he recruited from there? 2. You know who they were? Gallonigher and Plumbo. ...

Fuck the new DTV back with the old.

I miss the old DTV crowd.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 11, 2013, 05:54:08 am
The Helms Deep map needs to go, bots behave idiotically, inconvenient mapdesign (made even worse by the invisible walls on the ladders not allowing you to walk down from the walls) wastes massive amounts of time forcing players to waltz around the entire map because a single stray bot is being annoying, cavalry waves are completely broken as they can't get up the ladders, finally to make the map even worse smoke and fire is stacked everywhere leading to horrible fps. The map with the openable gate that's also a siege map needs either the gate removed or the map, gate is abusable to get bots easily stuck and have another player attack them from behind.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on December 11, 2013, 02:36:04 pm
Jona, the only use that HoC ever had out of DTV was recruiting noobs.  Stop finding away to interject yourself against me in all threads and get some friends.

I've barely seen you ever go on there, and to be quite honest all you do on here is -1 me on all my posts that you have no correlation with.  If you're going to agree with Paladin, atleast put SOME effort in proving that you actually give a shit.

You're literally retarded. I used to be your average dtv hero. Want to know why you don't see me, or much of the old crowd nowadays? Hmmm.... maybe because, as we have all come here to say, IT SUCKS. Just because it caters to power grinders like yourself doesn't mean that it is a fun game mode. Was the old mode non-exploitable? Hell no. Is the new one non-exploitable? Hell no. Was the old one fun? Yes. Is the new one? No. Did the old one give excellent xp? Meh... it was so so. Does the new one? Yes. Hence, all those tryhards come from Na_1 and other servers just to power level.


I miss the old DTV crowd.

I'm right there with yah buddy.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on December 11, 2013, 09:06:00 pm
Just some infos on what the next update brings:
- 80% of the invisible walls are now visible with fences or walls or whatever. Looks pretty stupid on most maps but whatever, too many people complained about it (I still think that they were not as bad as described by most guys, i got used to the placement pretty quickly). Only some walls behind the bot spawn stayed invisible.
- means i updated basically any map which is in the rotation now, removed bugged spots like the walls on the ladders at helms deep, moved spawns so noone should get stuck and made some maps more open, AI meshes n stuff

I did some other things that will be necessary before i start adding other maps to the cycle. There are some issues considering the scene editing now and i need to know if i fixed them or not, but i need an almost full server for that, so no way i can test that right now.

Meaning after the next hotfix i'll get together with Shik and we're gonna talk about what to do with the bots/maps. Because just simply putting some more open maps won't be happening, there also have to be more adjustments to the bots.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on December 12, 2013, 12:56:26 am
Just some infos on what the next update brings:
- 80% of the invisible walls are now visible with fences or walls or whatever. Looks pretty stupid on most maps but whatever, too many people complained about it (I still think that they were not as bad as described by most guys, i got used to the placement pretty quickly). Only some walls behind the bot spawn stayed invisible.
- means i updated basically any map which is in the rotation now, removed bugged spots like the walls on the ladders at helms deep, moved spawns so noone should get stuck and made some maps more open, AI meshes n stuff

Thank you for listening and acting on feedback.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Mikhail_Fe on December 12, 2013, 11:43:04 pm
Yes. They suck.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: no_rules_just_play on December 13, 2013, 06:28:27 am
Before there were 2 maps where people actually made a shieldwall. In both cases, the bots managed to break that wall easily by walking around a building etc...

I liked istiniar and yaragar for the xp grind, but LOVED the shieldwall maps because you actually were playing as a team.
Thanks for adding these new maps Fips, there are still absolute shit maps but a lot of them are very fun already.

The new Istiniar for example is an awesome example of how it should be done.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: En_Dotter on December 13, 2013, 07:02:49 am
Fips, i gotta share my view. Aside from the fact that i like trolling you about your maps (as most of us do) ill try to be objective here.

I understand all the reason for DTV rework - more team work, less grind and less leeching.
At this moment i find myself mostly useless because most of the maps dont support ranged (or most i have played). You should really add higher platforms or some kind of towers that bots can access. I dont play DTV anymore because most of the time i have to either nudge/punch ppl to pass time or to draw my pathetic sword which i am not proficient with. Even if there are some spots for ranged we need to "fight" for it...

Please add some range towers/platforms that we can actually use and be of help. I often th for the lolz just so i can trick myself im doing something...
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: BlindGuy on December 13, 2013, 07:19:31 am
... i find myself mostly useless...

But that's gonna happen reguardles of map or gamemode.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: En_Dotter on December 13, 2013, 09:08:13 am
But that's gonna happen reguardles of map or gamemode.
I like to pretend i am contributing. You dont have to crush my dreams in public... send a pm or something so i can cry under the cold shower and sob in peace...
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on December 13, 2013, 11:38:49 am
I understand all the reason for DTV rework - more team work, less grind and less leeching.

.... Bwahahaha!! Less grind, less leaching?? Moar grind and moar leaching.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on December 18, 2013, 05:04:36 pm
In the new Istiniar, bots can get stuck in an unreachable place at the new corridor near spawn and won't come out.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on December 18, 2013, 06:02:22 pm
Just thought I would drop this little tidbit in here:

I was actively playing DTV the other day... siege and battle were too annoying at the moment, and I figured I would try some DTV again, since it used to be my bored-of-all-other-servers retreat. I showed up and saw and old friend, who only plays DTV. So I decided to not go super tryhard, and sat behind the shieldwall catching up with him. We both killed any bots that got past the shieldwall. Sure, we could have spoken elsewhere, but hey, we weren't leeching, and no one even once complained of our chatter. Some even chimed in from time to time, and it was a nice laidback time.

Then, along comes some badmin, who tells us that we are not actively participating and are simply leeching. I tell him, as he can clearly see, we are both actively typing in chat, proving that we are here and not afk. Not only that, but we both had a decent amount of kills... my pal had 60-70, I only had 30-40 since I had only shown up a round or two prior (besides, 30 and 60 are both a decent amount for picking off the few that make it past the wall of doom). I then proceeded to tell him that with the new maps there simply isn't enough room for all 22ish people who were in the server to be in a shieldwall that is only 4-5 men wide. Also I mentioned that in the old DTV and the new, camping the V is a valid tactic... you could never count on the advanced party to kill everyone, and need to prevent the ninja bots from doing their thing. Nevertheless, he waits until the end of the round to kick us both, just 30 seconds before the tick came along.

If this had been the old DTV, I would have been actively charging, S key-heroing and racking up them kills. Just because I wasn't sitting in the shieldwall doesn't mean I am not participating. Since this my old friendmin decided to stick around for a while, my buddy and I decided to yolo charge at the beginning of each round, kill maybe 3 bots, and then just talk in dead chat. Apparently this satisfied the admin, when in fact it was far more detrimental to the team. The fact that there are only 2 acceptable playstyles: sit in a shieldwall constantly overheading or suicide charge, is just disgusting.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Rico on December 18, 2013, 06:12:32 pm
It should be noted, that this admin (who I shall keep anonymous to prevent further butthurt) is severely biased against me due to my clan. He singled me out from the 3 - 4 ACTUAL LEECHERS, noticed me talking with my friend, and decided to drag him down with me. So, there is that to keep in mind I suppose. :/ 
Keeping the admin anonymous means you dislike the shieldwall-or-charge dilemma, but don't actually complain about the admin?
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on December 18, 2013, 06:14:14 pm
So now you blame the maps for some admin making a poor decision?
Just stop it. Take this to his/her admin feedback, because this is not the place to discuss such a topic.


@Patoson: Will fix that, hope ranged can shoot the bot there.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on December 18, 2013, 06:55:43 pm
Keeping the admin anonymous means you dislike the shieldwall-or-charge dilemma, but don't actually complain about the admin?

So now you blame the maps for some admin making a poor decision?
Just stop it. Take this to his/her admin feedback, because this is not the place to discuss such a topic.


@Patoson: Will fix that, hope ranged can shoot the bot there.

I would take it to the admin's thread, but nothing is gonna happen since all these admins jerk each other off in their spare time and wouldn't ever act on something like this. It's smoothrich all over again. You guys might be different, but in NA we've got a problem with admins being douches and not getting their powers stripped away.

And it IS relevant to this thread because it is the map's fault that I was forced to do nothing but talk in order to participate. You can't argue that your maps give 70% of the server nothing to do half the time. Thats just how it is when you've got an impenetrable shieldwall and then a bunch of non shielders twiddling their thumbs. Point is, if this was the old DTV this would be a non-issue. But since it's the new DTV the admin was able to abuse his powers and kick us for "leeching." The old DTV didn't force this "playstyle" upon us.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: BlindGuy on December 18, 2013, 07:03:04 pm
Seems like 1 person in every 3 is admin in NA.

FIPS: maps work well as far as I can see. Im sorry to say that DTV is still the most boring thing I have ever played in any M&B mod, but that is far from being your fault.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Uther Pendragon on December 20, 2013, 01:47:48 am
Reaching you on steam is pain in the ass Fips, but, I think taking a look at Nordinvasion maps and maybe getting some "inspiration" from them would be a mind-blowingly good idea.
I can prepare some screens for you tommorow maybe :D
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on December 20, 2013, 10:05:14 pm
We need more open maps, or, at least, enlarging the gates/places where shieldwalls are set, so everyone can fight and not have 1/3 of the team idle.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: ARN_ on December 24, 2013, 01:55:40 am
We need more open maps, or, at least, enlarging the gates/places where shieldwalls are set, so everyone can fight and not have 1/3 of the team idle.
GENIUS! :D
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: stante on December 24, 2013, 07:42:04 pm
GENIUS! :D

How about writing in black so we don't get an eye cancer while trying to read those for hours!? :D
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on December 27, 2013, 12:53:45 am
The current DTV is a multi-mode: 3/4 of the server Defend The Viscount, while the other 1/4 Do The Viscount (stand still all round).
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Elio on December 27, 2013, 01:31:42 am
while the other 1/4 Do The Viscount (stand still all round).
+1

By the way Virgin dance was from far better.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on December 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am
Wait! Now that I think about it, that sounded very wrong.  :lol:
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Suchechka on December 29, 2013, 03:16:34 am
Shaddap. Gamemode perfect, xp/gold factory, where you can leech, if you want, or play - always will be players, who can do your duty. Just skip lame maps.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Uther Pendragon on December 29, 2013, 04:02:19 am
Shaddap. Gamemode perfect, xp/gold factory, where you can leech, if you want, or play - always will be players, who can do your duty. Just skip lame maps.
^ This is how it looks now, sadly.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Battlepriest on January 01, 2014, 09:54:34 pm
At least bring back the virgin and her clothing damage
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Leshma on January 05, 2014, 12:45:56 pm
This shit has been ruined by:
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Ronin on January 05, 2014, 01:29:33 pm
Actually I think scenery has a very big impact on DTV. In my opinion, DTV maps should be:

1-Equally balanced. So it won't feel like a waste of time to play harder maps, while there are easy mode maps.
2-Should be fun to play. the maps has the most impact on the gameplay. The maps that has no use for archers, are boring for archers for example.
3-Should consider the behaviour of bots. One of the waves have riders who use nothing but great lances, which is plain useless because there's no space enough for them to do a couched lance strike.
4-Shouldn't be too hard or too easy. Blank 8 map is too easy and Arena map is absurdly hard. Find a good balance for them.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on January 05, 2014, 01:51:23 pm
Old "non-ezmode" maps, please! I rarely stay for an entire map now. I always have to quit out of desperation - if you're not spamming overhead at the shieldwall, you're bound to leech or quit.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Sharpe on January 05, 2014, 03:18:16 pm
We had found  a way to get old DTV maps back, but then they turned Map Polls off. Honestly if multiple people are complaining about the status of the current DTV, wouldnt it be a good idea to mix in some of their ideas with your grandiose ones?
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 05, 2014, 04:57:21 pm
Jeezus christ, stop with the suggestions already. I told you guys many weeks ago that the last hotfix was just for me to figure out some problems with the spawnpoints and AI meshes, so i can review the suggested maps from other mappers better and more efficiently. And i also told you several times that there will be more open maps coming the next patch to balance out the smaller ones.

So you can either keep suggesting the same things over and over again until your hands fall off from all the typing or you can wait for the next patch to bring you guys what i told you so often already. There is nothing that i or anybody else can do about the current situation other than getting everything ready for the next patch.


Also, there are plenty of maps that allow everyone, even 30 players, to play constantly. Both ranged and melee. But i'm guessing those are still getting skipped because the xp and gold is not as good? Because when i still played crpg and dtv most of the times i saw people just skipping the more open ones (That eeeeeveryone seems to want) and instead playing the ones that get the most complaints. Yes, i see that there are 4 maps (Uzgha, Turin Castle, Istiniar(Although with the new spawn there should be way more people kept being busy) and sea_raid) that don't allow a full server to keep being busy all the time, but those are exactly the ones i kept seeing on the server because of the xp. So, until the next patch, maybe you should start skipping those maps instead of the more open ones.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on January 05, 2014, 08:18:46 pm
It's true that people change the map because they don't know how to play without a shieldwall, but that's not us posting here :P

I have a new suggestion then: just make one single open map, like random steppe, with no - I repeat, NO - objects or obstacles and make it the only map in the rotation  :mrgreen: At least it would be hilarious.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on January 09, 2014, 07:25:51 am
It's true that people change the map because they don't know how to play without a shieldwall, but that's not us posting here :P

I have a new suggestion then: just make one single open map, like random steppe, with no - I repeat, NO - objects or obstacles and make it the only map in the rotation  :mrgreen: At least it would be hilarious.

I would honestly love this map. There used to be an old village map that was almost entirely open in front (but of course it had a rarely-used xp shack so it got removed) and bots spawned far away. Even on the later waves I could inspire a bunch of guys to charge out and meet the bots in the open field. Was epic fun!
Title: Re: New DTV maps discussion
Post by: Patoson on January 12, 2014, 04:26:07 pm
I have another suggestion: keep a couple of maps of these new ones, and put back in the rotation the old maps, EXCEPT the exploitable ones - Yaragar, Istiniar, Rizi,... (all those with fences, elevated haystack, roof access, etc.).

I appreciate your work with the maps, Fips, but with 30 player limit, some of them are too small. The problem, in my opinion, is that people would rather go "ezmode", make a shieldwall at the small gate, and don't care about 1/3 of the team getting bored / leeching, than letting the bots inside the castle so everyone could fight. We can always blame the map, but every map can be played in many ways.

Still, I think that combining some of the old maps with the new ones and, if possibly, enlarging the access points so more people can fight, would be great.

OR give a percentage of bots in ALL waves a great maul and str build. That way shieldwall might not be unbreakable anymore.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 13, 2014, 01:15:56 pm
So, with the latest update i'm quite happy with every single map in the cycle. The 2 new ones need some bugfixing, of course, but other than that every map should support space for 30 players now, invisible walls are mostly visible and the maps are more open to begin with. Not saying there shouldn't be even more maps that are more open, but for now everything should work smoothly.
The old village maps won't make it in, though. The ones i thought should have a comeback are already in and i cba to edit more of them, because i generally feel that just using native villages is a little bit boring. I have some other ideas and the map submissions that didn't make it in, are definitely ready for the next patch. Might take a while, but with the current map cycle i don't see a huge problem with that. Plus, there will probably be some bot-changes too, then. Just need Shik for that (That will probably include mauls that actually crushthrough and not the mallet/maul from bandits)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on January 13, 2014, 11:55:01 pm
Well, as long as Fips is happy.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 14, 2014, 12:02:17 am
Well, as long as Fips is happy.  :rolleyes:

That was my plan all along.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Leshma on January 14, 2014, 12:07:25 am
Newest addition to map cycle, that huge castle, is full of glitches (places where players or bots can easily get stuck) and too big to actually enjoy DTV. Rounds last too long because it takes ages for bots to actually arrive near Viscount. Also whenever one of them is bugged, it's pain to find it and kill it.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on January 14, 2014, 12:29:17 am
I'm glad the bugs were fixed and there are two new maps, but I still don't understand why the old maps are out of the rotation.

Is it some kind of revenge from the siege players that didn't enjoy the old DTV? Now we who like open maps have to suffer? Why can't we all be happy with 50-50 type of maps?
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 14, 2014, 12:34:58 am
Newest addition to map cycle, that huge castle, is full of glitches (places where players or bots can easily get stuck) and too big to actually enjoy DTV. Rounds last too long because it takes ages for bots to actually arrive near Viscount. Also whenever one of them is bugged, it's pain to find it and kill it.

Yeah, i know, it's out of the rotation in the config, just needs a server restart.

@Patoson: Did you read the last post concerning the more open maps and the old ones at all?!
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on January 14, 2014, 02:47:45 pm
Sorry if I was a pain in the arse, but it was my way to vent the tension of the moment. I won't spam again. I just don't understand why they were removed in the first place.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: SyderOne on January 14, 2014, 04:48:48 pm
ILLO, estamos locos? ni pidas perdon que le follen, guiri. X)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Rico on January 17, 2014, 10:42:04 am
A map in which everyone can participate in a nice shieldwallish formation could work this way:

The server counts the number of players and substracts people who spawn with ranged weapons. Based on the number of melee players counted this way, the width of the choke-points is calculated. More melee players: Broader choke points, broader shieldwalls, everyone participates. Less melee players: Tighter choke points, everyone still participates, and formations can still be applied to win against bots and players do not fail every round because of bots running around the shielders and backstabbing them.

Similarly, the width of archer platforms, roofs etc. could be calculated dynamically, based on the number of players using ranged weapons.

Might be hard to implement, but it seems to tackle the problem.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 17, 2014, 11:40:47 am
I'm no expert in implementing new mechanics, but that seems nearly impossible to do. And if it isn't, it sure as hell sounds like it's way too much work for a gamemode that's not worth putting hours and hours of dev-work into when they could be implementing new things for strat, battle or siege. You are stuck with Shik and me and there's only so much the both of us can do =P


Anyway, what i still fail to see, is, how exactly did i ruin dtv? If it's ruined, why are there so many people who still play it on an almost daily basis? Player numbers are way higher than they were on the "old" dtv and more constant, if it wasn't for the admin password i'd have a hard time getting in most of the time i start up crpg. That tells me, as a scene manager, that i did something right.
If you have any specific ideas for the current maps to improve them further feel free to tell me them, but the overall layout will probably stay the same, there will just be more maps in upcoming patches.

I cannot satisfy everyone and i knew that from the moment i decided to apply as scene destroyer, so sorry, but a few posts in the forum won't change my mind, only if plenty of people want something changed, like invisible walls for example.

(Those last 2 parts were just general babbling, nothing about you, Rico ^^)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Leshma on January 17, 2014, 03:09:25 pm
You told me that huge castle map is removed but it isn't. Map truly sucks, because AI is not good enough to deal with it. Too many angles, too many glitched floors. Takes ages for bots to get to the flag. Also every map where bots climb ladders (siege DTV maps) are bad. DTV, being original defend the village mod isn't made for complex castles.

That other castle, where orange fog is quite common isn't a bad map. But it needs more ballistas pointing at bot spawns and not at narrow passages where they should pass on their way to flag. That's because bots usually never reach those places so those ballistas are mostly useless. If you have time, please put ladders on rooftops and ballista on each rooftop so that players can aim spawns. Why? Because we have too many high ping players and since there is no way to kick them out, better find them something to do, to be useless. Not all of them are unbreakable shield aggro stationary objects.

Maps should be remade in a way so that everyone is involved, but they shouldn't be too hard. Too hard or too slow map means less XP and gold which means less people playing. I know that during the day DTV is already full to the brim, but making lousy maps where no one can earn enough gold or XP isn't the way to deal with that.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 17, 2014, 03:23:09 pm
Then simply a server restart didn't happen yet.

And xp can not be a reason for any arguments here, neither can the chinese or australian people, they have their own servers or can make them. Maps are a lot smaller and the xp is still insane, even if the maps take a little longer. Remember, the xp was made for the old dtv where it was about what you get on average at battle/siege. Rounds on dtv can give you 40k xp in less than 5 minutes, so don't start complaining about low xp o_O

Also: The Desert map was made by Hellsing. His thread should be here in this forum, so please write whatever suggestions you have for his maps, in there. =)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Leshma on January 17, 2014, 03:54:38 pm
I'm not complaining about lack of XP, I complain about people skipping maps because XP is low. We can't ban them all, and there is no way to deal with non-EU players so I'm just trying to find a solution that will make them busy instead of leeching. That's all.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 17, 2014, 04:35:29 pm
I'm not complaining about lack of XP, I complain about people skipping maps because XP is low. We can't ban them all, and there is no way to deal with non-EU players so I'm just trying to find a solution that will make them busy instead of leeching. That's all.

Yeah, map changing is no longer allowed. Cmp edited the rules now, so if you see people doing that, you can post a ban request. The high pingers are still a problem though, yes. Can't ban them on some maps because they can be useful with their shields and somehow some of them even manage to get kills with ranged, but the overall uselessness of them sucks and is quite unfair to the EU players. But can't just blanket ban them. If we would, we might as well start banning the players that run around naked with a dagger while the rest of their team is fighting vitez or whatever. Then dtv would be empty, ha.

Also, cmp restarted the server, so the buggy map is gone.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on January 17, 2014, 09:35:34 pm
And xp can not be a reason for any arguments here, neither can the chinese or australian people, they have their own servers or can make them. Maps are a lot smaller and the xp is still insane, even if the maps take a little longer. Remember, the xp was made for the old dtv where it was about what you get on average at battle/siege. Rounds on dtv can give you 40k xp in less than 5 minutes, so don't start complaining about low xp o_O

One of the main problem with DTV is that you get MORE xp than ever before. The ONLY reason that it is any more populated (if it at all is... I am seeing the same population as before on NA) is due to the fact that people who want to power grind come to DTV now. It is plain and simple as that, and yes, in this case xp can very well be the reason for this argument, because as you said the xp was for old maps, and with this new, claustrophobic trash, we finish rounds too quickly, and get obscene amounts of xp, thus drawing the undesirables from battle into the server.

Say what you will about seeing higher populations than ever, and that proving you are a good map maker. Sorry, but is just not the case. NA is seeing the same population, any more is only due to the average of 3-4 high-pinged leechers, and perhaps the few battle-tryhards who come to power level. And even then the population still evens out to what we had back in the good ole days because so many "DTV veterans" have abandoned the server, and in some cases the game, entirely. A surprisingly large amount of players ONLY played DTV, and since the change many have left and failed to return.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 17, 2014, 10:31:55 pm
Well, how about you enlighten me on how to make a good dtv map then?
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Uther Pendragon on January 18, 2014, 12:10:52 am
Well, how about you enlighten me on how to make a good dtv map then?

(click to show/hide)
Take away the fences, entrances onto the rooftops (or just place your invisible walls and fences there) and whoopyboop, not longer abuseable gamemode that will only be played by people who actually fucking enjoy it, not the ones who want to power-grind the hell outta it. You CAN'T stop abusing the maps, but you CAN indeed annoy people by giving us maps tighter than a nun's ass. Just, please, some space to run around. :(
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 18, 2014, 12:19:30 am
I said i'll get you more open maps. Like a hundred times already. I'm very sorry that it didn't happen last patch, but it was too rushed for me to get something done in time. But no, no native villages, we can do better.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Uther Pendragon on January 18, 2014, 12:32:57 am
Last time you also asked me to remind you about it because you'd be drunk and then hangover by tommorow, so here I am  :oops:
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 18, 2014, 12:42:02 am
Last time you also asked me to remind you about it because you'd be drunk and then hangover by tommorow, so here I am  :oops:

I'm already working on them so gimme a break =P
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on January 18, 2014, 04:10:55 am
(click to show/hide)
Take away the fences, entrances onto the rooftops (or just place your invisible walls and fences there) and whoopyboop, not longer abuseable gamemode that will only be played by people who actually fucking enjoy it, not the ones who want to power-grind the hell outta it. You CAN'T stop abusing the maps, but you CAN indeed annoy people by giving us maps tighter than a nun's ass. Just, please, some space to run around. :(


^THIS THIS THIS THIS


Native maps were perfectly acceptable and very fun. Sure better than any new shit I've seen. We don't want castle maps in DTV. We want village and open maps. The fact that you define placing archers on top of highly-exposed rooftops as exploiting is hilarious in it's own right compared to what you've made DTV into. The few archers on top of a low roof are not only easily raped by projectiles, but can also be hit by melee if they don't watch their step. They aren't invincible and don't attract every single bot per map, which you seem convinced of. Same goes for fences. Walls like in Rizi are pretty 'exploitable' and perhaps shouldn't be around.

And if for some reason in your crusade against aggroing bots you still think exposed rooftops shouldn't exist, then fine! Take them away but leave the maps as-is. We don't want your definition of 'open' maps which is nothing more than a straight tunnel S-keying fest with borders full of rocks and other uneven outcroppings that you get stuck on like nobody's business. If you REALLY want to, I don't think anyone would mind the addition of ballistas to old native maps, since after all it keeps the peasants busy. However, maps based around ballistas, like that one that is simply a shooting range, are pretty dumb.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on January 18, 2014, 12:33:58 pm
Seriously, what the hell do you want to do on dtv?
You don't want to have a map that supports shieldwalls in a way that makes them very useful, you don't like ballista-maps, s-keying sucks too, what else is there?! Well, there was a lot of exploiting, but that's gone and won't come back. I don't see what the old maps supported what the new ones don't. More open maps are on their way and when you think that my definition of an open map is the ones we have in the cycle right now, then you're wrong. More open maps? Yes. Native Villages? No. But whatever, i'm the evil destroyer of dtv and it doesn't seem like i can convince you otherwise, so i might as well be talking to a wall right now.

The "old" dtv was about abusing fences, roofs or barns and if you couldn't do that the server was mostly empty and the few people that did play on it rushed towards the enemy spawn and then s-keyed their way back to the virgin. On a few maps people gathered at bridges or other chokepoints but that almost never happened when i played, even when i tried to encourage people to do it.

Also, when i think really hard about how many people actually complained about the new maps (since the latest patch) may it be ingame or here on the forum, i can count maybe 10. But 5 out of those 10 are playing the mode anyway so it can't be that bad. It's always the voice of the ragers that is the loudest here in crpg.

I'm done explaining myself. Like it or not, you are stuck with me as scene manager because teeth sure as hell doesn't give a crap about dtv. When Shik told me he wanted to spice up dtv i made decisions regarding the maps, a few of them i revised and solved otherwise, but from what i see on the server nowadays, from a scene managing point of view, i am satisfied with the result. There is plenty of teamwork going on and the few heroes that wanna do it their own way still can and still are doing that, ballistas are being constantly used and were a great addition to the mode and i experienced people coming to the very late rounds, engineers or even sexies, on every single map, with most of them being actually winnable.

I'm not going to close this thread, but i'm not going to answer anything from now on, either. For map feedback of new maps in the upcoming patch(s) go to the feedback thread or better, the threads of the mappers that did them and if you find any bugs or exploitable spots on current maps report them to me and i will fix them. That is all for this thread.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Mlekce on January 18, 2014, 12:52:56 pm
Give back old dtv maps and bot waves. I want to relax,run around and kill bots and speak to players,not jut kill endless waves of bots.
It sux,also repairs are too fucking big.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on January 19, 2014, 10:51:38 am
Seriously, what the hell do you want to do on dtv?
You don't want to have a map that supports shieldwalls in a way that makes them very useful, you don't like ballista-maps, s-keying sucks too, what else is there?! Well, there was a lot of exploiting, but that's gone and won't come back. I don't see what the old maps supported what the new ones don't. More open maps are on their way and when you think that my definition of an open map is the ones we have in the cycle right now, then you're wrong. More open maps? Yes. Native Villages? No. But whatever, i'm the evil destroyer of dtv and it doesn't seem like i can convince you otherwise, so i might as well be talking to a wall right now.

The "old" dtv was about abusing fences, roofs or barns and if you couldn't do that the server was mostly empty and the few people that did play on it rushed towards the enemy spawn and then s-keyed their way back to the virgin. On a few maps people gathered at bridges or other chokepoints but that almost never happened when i played, even when i tried to encourage people to do it.

Also, when i think really hard about how many people actually complained about the new maps (since the latest patch) may it be ingame or here on the forum, i can count maybe 10. But 5 out of those 10 are playing the mode anyway so it can't be that bad. It's always the voice of the ragers that is the loudest here in crpg.

I'm done explaining myself. Like it or not, you are stuck with me as scene manager because teeth sure as hell doesn't give a crap about dtv. When Shik told me he wanted to spice up dtv i made decisions regarding the maps, a few of them i revised and solved otherwise, but from what i see on the server nowadays, from a scene managing point of view, i am satisfied with the result. There is plenty of teamwork going on and the few heroes that wanna do it their own way still can and still are doing that, ballistas are being constantly used and were a great addition to the mode and i experienced people coming to the very late rounds, engineers or even sexies, on every single map, with most of them being actually winnable.

I'm not going to close this thread, but i'm not going to answer anything from now on, either. For map feedback of new maps in the upcoming patch(s) go to the feedback thread or better, the threads of the mappers that did them and if you find any bugs or exploitable spots on current maps report them to me and i will fix them. That is all for this thread.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on January 19, 2014, 10:23:10 pm
Seriously, what the hell do you want to do on dtv?

We want the old maps back and the dumb new waves removed. Then we don't want to see DTV messed with again.

You don't want to have a map that supports shieldwalls in a way that makes them very useful, you don't like ballista-maps, s-keying sucks too, what else is there?!

1) Many old maps supported shieldwalls, they just weren't used too much since people PREFER to charge. "Very useful" is not a synonym for "the only way to get past nomads."
2) I said ballistas were a decent addition in many cases, so that lower levels could still get involved. I only said that an entire map that is nothing more than a love-child of ballistas is just wrong (i.e. the firing line map). The ballistas are a fun addition for peasants to mess around with, but they shouldn't be shoved in our face like that.
3) S-keying sucks when it is literally all that you can do.. W and then S key. In native maps was there a lot of S keying? Sure. But before that came weaving in and out of enemies, selecting the best angle of attack, and THEN S keying, usually off to the SIDE (so that means A or D key as well) because if you lured the bots the the V, well, you're dumb. Old maps supported pulling in any and all directions, no ONLY straight forwards then backwards right to the V. THIS is what most of us miss from the old DTV... sure a couple new maps allow us to S key, and ONLY S key. But no one likes doing that.

The "old" dtv was about abusing fences, roofs or barns and if you couldn't do that the server was mostly empty and the few people that did play on it rushed towards the enemy spawn and then s-keyed their way back to the virgin. On a few maps people gathered at bridges or other chokepoints but that almost never happened when i played, even when i tried to encourage people to do it.

Sure, some people abused fences or walls and such to win and advance to later rounds. But you seem to generalize way too much. DTV is casual, where people go to hangout, actually have fun in this mod, and relax from the more competitive modes. Many of us would charge and meet the bots  head on, as previously described, but sometimes even that was too-tryhard, and we would camp at the V and wait for the bots to come to us. However, we would switch back and forth between both tactics frequently... it gets boring doing one or the other time and time again. With the new maps which altogether eliminate one option or the other, the game gets stale. The main problem with the new maps is that u have got ONE way to win rounds on each map, and thats it. No variety, no inventive strategies, nada. And for the record, shieldwalls commonly formed on bridge maps.

Also, when i think really hard about how many people actually complained about the new maps (since the latest patch) may it be ingame or here on the forum, i can count maybe 10. But 5 out of those 10 are playing the mode anyway so it can't be that bad. It's always the voice of the ragers that is the loudest here in crpg.

Well there are many reasons for that. First being that very few members of this mod actually have forums accounts, and if so they sure as hell don't come here posting every day. You will probably find that in DTV, the "noob" server, you will find the least amount of forum accounts linked with the game accounts. And I will admit, you can chalk me up as one of your 5/10, but I sure as hell aint playing this mode on any of the new shit maps. So not sure what you are accomplishing by saying that I still play the mode...

Also, leave it to someone receiving some QQ to instantly call their opposition in the argument 'ragers' and try to strip their arguments of any validity. That's a very common "Well, well... I don't have any more comebacks, so I am just gonna call your argument invalid and be done. There! I win now!"

I don't just post here with my own thoughts and observations, trying to keep DTV how I want it. No, I speak very often with other players of DTV and get their input before coming here. It is not just MY opinion that DTV is 'more popular than ever' due to the influx of power grinders, that is the generally accepted truth. And once we are on an oldie-but-goodie map, all those power grinders leave since we are getting average, acceptable amounts of XP once more... while u know, having a little something called fun. I am not nearly the only one that I have spoken with who feels claustrophobic in almost all new maps. I don't even bother bringing up the topic anymore and last time I was in the server someone I had never seen around before (who was an archer, btw) stated that he "hates all these DTV maps since there is no where to move."

I'm done explaining myself. Like it or not, you are stuck with me as scene manager because teeth sure as hell doesn't give a crap about dtv. When Shik told me he wanted to spice up dtv i made decisions regarding the maps, a few of them i revised and solved otherwise, but from what i see on the server nowadays, from a scene managing point of view, i am satisfied with the result. There is plenty of teamwork going on and the few heroes that wanna do it their own way still can and still are doing that, ballistas are being constantly used and were a great addition to the mode and i experienced people coming to the very late rounds, engineers or even sexies, on every single map, with most of them being actually winnable.

I think we all liked it better when DTV had no scene managers. You should probably take a page out of Teeth's book and stop giving a crap about DTV, since you obviously only have a faked interest in the mode itself. Just change the maps back to what they were, and leave it be is the best course of action for you. Also, when was the last time Shik was ever in DTV, or cared the least bit about it? The first, last, and only time I saw him in there was roughly 1 year ago. Sure, it's great that some guys show interest in keeping the mode feeling fresh... but shouldn't it be, well, a task force of people who actually LIKE the game mode, and frequent it?

Frankly, none of us players really care how you feel about the maps "from a scene manager's POV" since that has nothing to do with fun or reliability. You see people getting far on all maps? Great, that could always happen. All you need are one or two 500 ping 13 shield skill guys sitting in a corner and you can do that on any map. And those guys are far more prevalent and productive on these cramped, new maps. Only reason it was harder for that strategy to work is because the maps were large, and open. Now you've got a whopping TWO paths bots take. Well contrary to your belief, bots would often take many paths, and different ones each round, since it all depends on where us humans are sitting.

I'm not going to close this thread, but i'm not going to answer anything from now on, either. For map feedback of new maps in the upcoming patch(s) go to the feedback thread or better, the threads of the mappers that did them and if you find any bugs or exploitable spots on current maps report them to me and i will fix them. That is all for this thread.

And there it is... the white flag waving. GG, been fun, since old DTV wins time to revert back methinks.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Falka on January 19, 2014, 10:38:38 pm
(click to show/hide)

This guy should be map maker, not Fips  :wink:

I'm not going to close this thread, but i'm not going to answer anything from now on, either. For map feedback of new maps in the upcoming patch(s) go to the feedback thread or better, the threads of the mappers that did them and if you find any bugs or exploitable spots on current maps report them to me and i will fix them. That is all for this thread.

If you can't stand criticism don't apply for a job in the first place. And what's wrong with this thread that you wanted to close it? Where are "we" supposed to put feedback if not here, in "scene editing" subforum?
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: HappyPhantom on January 20, 2014, 07:39:21 am
< -- Well thought out rebuttal to Fips points by Jona that match my own thoughts -->

Thank you Jona for saying what I lacked patience and effort to explain.

I would also add, Fips I think you have destroyed DTV as a training ground for new players. If I had been presented with these maps when I first started playing, I would be both frustrated and bored as fuck, and probably stopped playing.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Leshma on January 20, 2014, 07:06:56 pm
Actually, new DTV is great when there's less than 10 players in a team and all are capable. Enough room for fighting, not too many bots to deal with, still max rewards.

If there was private DTV server where you could join based on invitation, I would totally dig it :D
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: En_Dotter on January 22, 2014, 02:36:03 pm
Ill add some fuel to this fire to keep it burning till devs start feeling at least the warmth...

New DTV is a total crap. Intensity of crappiness surpasses the speed of which the new "nerf ranged" threads appear.
Why is it crap?
1. It has become rather hard - no more pure fun in this mode unless you got enough drugs to keep your reflexes and senses rly sharp. And even then you are most probably doomed. Its no longer a chill game mode but fucking tetris on max speed (u cant win, since in tetris u always lose, and u cant have a decent score, meaning u can make a line or 2 and thats it...).
2. Only one tactic works - SHIELD. Where is the fun in playing every map the same fucking way and always having shield wall (aka 13 shield skill chinese with 24058205890258025ms ping) and some guys overheading and archers trying not to th or tk since its so fucking clumped.
3. Cus of the limited amount of space to fight (only 1/10000000000000 of my moooom can fit in those maps or less even) a lot of ppl MUST be "afk", or stay away cus there is no fucking space to do anything, and yet ppl get kicked/banned constantly cus "they are afk". (not saying there are no leeching ppl but that is irrelevant).
4. Devs dont even play this game mode and yet they change it constantly. WTF? ITS A FUCKING CHILL MODE WHERE PPL HAVE FUN BY NOT BEING UNDER FUCKING PRESSURE LIKE ON EU1 OR EU2 OR NA1 OR NA2...

Old DTV was way better. Why?
1. Newbies could get some lvls before trying to fight in the dog pits. Also, they could ask for advice and yet get a decent answer (impossible now since its arcade mode and perma grind so we dont lose to nomads or weeboos...)
2. More tactics used. Yes, Yaragar, Istiniar and Rizi had their "unique" tactics, but other maps demanded brians... If you want to get bots stuck (aka "exploit") you didnt need 13 shield, you just needed to actually use the brain and explore the map. Even if you find a good location its not 100% guarantied (unlike 13 shield skill in new "non-exploitable" DTV). Not even 3 most famous maps were 100% safe. One mistake and bots are at V on istiniar if u lure to the left or right (impossible on new DTV with 2 guys and 13 shield skill and 504063403960ms ping).
3. Role playing. There were ppl who were meat grinders and didnt role play. There were ppl dressing up and taking roles - "afk" bodyguards next to V (making sure nothing passes) with their weapons sheeted; some pike guys "patrolling" the area using walk function; snipers on faraway locations trying to snipe the impossible; etc...

Im sure there is more to write but cba...
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Kamirane on January 23, 2014, 11:20:11 pm
i totally agree with En_Dotter.

And another thing...

I dont want to be a racist or something. But is it rly necessary that ppl can join with a constant ping of 350+?

Its not about, that they are bad... its more about TH´s/TK´s in fatal situations. It just makes it even more difficult as it is.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on January 24, 2014, 02:01:11 am
i totally agree with En_Dotter.

And another thing...

I dont want to be a racist or something. But is it rly necessary that ppl can join with a constant ping of 350+?

Its not about, that they are bad... its more about TH´s/TK´s in fatal situations. It just makes it even more difficult as it is.

Don't forget the 13 shield skill guys, haha.

Seriously though, I would define sitting in a corner until you die as leeching. They could easily have held RMB, and then alt tabbed away from warband until they hear themselves respawn next round. If admins are ever in the servers I just encourage them to constantly pester these players to see if they are indeed leeching. I guess if they reply (assuming they know english, which they should since this is apparently an english-driven mod, regardless of your country of origin, unfortunately) then they are indeed not afk, and since they are arguably contributing to the team they can stay. However, should they fail to reply, either through being afk or from lack of understanding... I think the usual punishments for leeching should apply.

Luckily, at least in NA, the 2h or polearm heroes of china tend to stay away, and only show up very rarely in which cases it is indeed a disaster. Especially since they generally all show up at once, like some hive-minded hoard! :D
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jeade on January 24, 2014, 11:24:51 pm
Don't forget the 13 shield skill guys, haha.

Seriously though, I would define sitting in a corner until you die as leeching. They could easily have held RMB, and then alt tabbed away from warband until they hear themselves respawn next round. If admins are ever in the servers I just encourage them to constantly pester these players to see if they are indeed leeching. ... However, should they fail to reply, either through being afk or from lack of understanding... I think the usual punishments for leeching should apply.

It's a smart way to AFK and not necessarily a bad one.
Leeching, to me, is not contributing in any way. If a high ping player with 13 shield comes in and pulls everything into a corner, they are contributing, AFK or not.
If they are contributing by standing in a corner, what difference does it make if they're actively holding right click and staring at the screen or not?
It's just a downfall to bots in DTV and something that can't be fixed. If the point is to "tank" and kill the bots, the 13 shield skill guys are doing exactly what they should be doing.
Eh.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Kamirane on January 25, 2014, 08:09:02 pm
I wish DTV wouldnt be a Gamemode, where the Key is to have a few Shielders in some Corners. Thats all.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Maksimus on January 28, 2014, 09:09:55 am
When there are few players I play with my main character BeaRed and I'm always on the first place. But when there is 30 players I play with 13 shieldskill character luring bots to the corner. And fips calls this griefing, and he wants to make all corners unreachable with his lovely invisible walls. Then what will happen. Half of the team die in the first wave even on peasants. Leave dtv alone, leave the corners.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on January 28, 2014, 10:38:30 am
What should happen is that people eventually learn how to play without exploiting glitches.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: DonNicko on January 28, 2014, 11:12:00 am
I think they will never learn to play, half are just trollers.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on January 29, 2014, 06:24:24 am
What should happen is that people eventually learn how to play without exploiting glitches.

While I agree, the only problem with this is that exploiting and strategy are often times confused. Some might say "Well I can do it, so I am simply using my brain, hur dur I am so smart look at me pike through a wall" while others would of course call that exploiting. I for one think that open roofs are more of a strategy than an exploit. Ranged bots kill at least 60% of the more skilled players in DTV. Keeping your archers on top of a roof will indeed draw a crowd of melee bots, but the archers will then get torn to pieces by enemy ranged. Fips and co. call this exploiting though, I for one would say it is a sound strategy. You are not invincible and more often than not the bots can indeed get up a ladder on the roof. On some of the old maps houses would blend into the hillside, and while bots might not be able to get up from one side, they can get up from the other side... but nope, still exploiting. I don't think I have ever seen anyone beat DTV using only a roof "exploit." Only times I've seen DTV beaten with exploiting is with a solid wall (rizi), a fence, or a shack. Never have I witnessed a rooftop pull win the day, since those crossbows of later waves tear the campers apart.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on February 15, 2014, 05:02:07 pm
As much as i hate to dig this damn thread up again, but i need to throw it out there anyway.
One of the reasons the dtv is so damn easy sometimes might be because 20% less bots spawn than they should. Instead of the spawn proximity or whatever, entry point 5 didn't work at all. Funny coincidence though, every spawn point that was too far away (that got me thinking about a spawn proximity) was exactly entry point 5. Thanks to urist this is fixed now and all the spawns work correctly. That means on full server there should be about 15-20 bots more now. Or maybe the amount stays the same and the bots just got spread out on the 4 working spawn points, no idea. But there definitely is a limit to how many bots each spawn point can spawn.
Just take a look at the numbers now and watch what happens tomorrow (tonight after patch) in the numbers, not completely sure about that issue. Can't test it because i can only play alone on my server.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Paul on February 15, 2014, 05:25:51 pm
The amount of bots should be the same. They were just spread on 4 instead of 5 entry points.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Andswaru on February 15, 2014, 09:38:02 pm
DTV gives far to much xp... thats why it pulls leechers and trolls. Nerf XP and gold and let people who enjoy it play.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Fips on February 16, 2014, 01:03:48 am
The amount of bots should be the same. They were just spread on 4 instead of 5 entry points.

Hmyeah, probably need to raise that amount otherwise then. The 20 maximum for each spawn would mean 80 bots right now, never saw that happen though.

@Andswaru: When double xp is gone. With double xp on siege and battle the amount of xp is okay. It's just more easy to leech than on other gamemodes.
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Patoson on February 16, 2014, 01:22:18 am
20 maximum (...) 80 bots
OH YES BABY!!! Bring it on!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New DTV map sucks
Post by: Jona on February 16, 2014, 01:33:28 am
Well you only get ~2 bots per player, hence you will never get 80 bots per wave with a 30 player maximum. Right now, on a full server there are usually 50-60 bots per wave, which more or less follows the 2 bots per player per wave rule.