cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Nordwolf on October 19, 2013, 12:51:07 am

Title: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Nordwolf on October 19, 2013, 12:51:07 am
Ranged as a class is already overnerfed, and everyone agrees that the problem with them is their amount...
So as a solution it would be reasonable to make/buff some counters to them.

What do you think they are?

For me:
1. Groups of melee that are larger then ranged ones (gone away already :D )
2. Other ranged (Team ranged balance maybe? Still I think it will be completely broken... unless
(click to show/hide)
It isn't easy to do properly... So will never happen.
3. Cavalry groups against small groups of archers is good
(click to show/hide)
4. Ninjas?
5. Something else? Maybe make an advertising campain for throwing knives :P
6. And I know it's nerfing actually.... :oops: But.... Make missile speed on lower tire bows less, but buff their damage a bit. http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/i-don't-get-this/
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Corsair831 on October 19, 2013, 12:51:35 am
brainpower
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Moncho on October 19, 2013, 12:53:02 am
QQing on forums until they get yet another nerf seems to be the dominant strategy around here unfortunately.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Rebelyell on October 19, 2013, 12:54:01 am
other ranged
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on October 19, 2013, 12:57:31 am
what about a big group of kinngrimms?
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: bagge on October 19, 2013, 12:58:15 am
LeoKings, Kinngrimms and Xbows
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Matey on October 19, 2013, 01:02:28 am
Just need more Mateys around and then people wouldn't bitch about ranged. We would all be too busy merrily running down ranged players and bitching about horses.

p.s. i think part of the reason we have so many ranged is that the only reliable counter to cautious cav players is ranged.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: San on October 19, 2013, 01:09:59 am
Heavily armored 1h or lance cav with a shield. Even if he gets dehorsed, he's a huge threat to the ranged.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Panos_ on October 19, 2013, 01:10:54 am
whining
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: bagge on October 19, 2013, 01:11:52 am
Quote from: Sabjorn on October 19, 2013, 01:10:54 am
whining

shut your whore mouth ranged.. oh wait
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Panos_ on October 19, 2013, 01:14:17 am
Quote from: bagge on October 19, 2013, 01:11:52 am
shut your whore mouth ranged.. oh wait

 :lol:
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Fartface on October 19, 2013, 01:30:21 am
Nerfs.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Kafein on October 19, 2013, 01:30:33 am
Quote from: san. on October 19, 2013, 01:09:59 am
Heavily armored 1h or lance cav with a shield. Even if he gets dehorsed, he's a huge threat to the ranged.

I hardly ever see cav getting dehorsed by ranged survive their ground napping.

Quote from: Moncho on October 19, 2013, 12:53:02 am
QQing on forums until they get yet another nerf seems to be the dominant strategy around here unfortunately.

It also happens to be the most effective
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Leshma on October 19, 2013, 01:46:05 am
Right now, nothing can counter big blob of ranged other than big blob of ranged. But if we're talking about lonely archers, there are many counters. I used to be decent counter in my days, it's funny how every archer is (even the best ones) an easy prey when they are alone. Of course, that only goes if their clanmates don't "cheat", ghost on teamspeak. And in last year or so that happened too often.

Back in the days, there wasn't much ghosting and my agi build was a lot faster than it was a year ago. Archers also had a lot less awareness than they have now. My sword hit harder and all combined it meant I could ambush the nest of archers and kill them all in few seconds. That was a decent ranged counter, sadly big shots decided to nerf that build repeatedly and now it's impossible to kill blob of archers but it's still effective against single targets.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Jeraz on October 19, 2013, 02:45:58 am
As an archer my self:

Other ranged
Shielders
and Sneaking up on me (mostly ninja/agi)

Also 2 or more cav works very effective.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Grumbs on October 19, 2013, 05:14:58 am
Other ranged
Lots of shielders
Winning a decisive melee fight that makes the teams lop sided
Camping

They can be countered, its just they have a negative effect on the overall fun of the core gameplay when there are too many. Even ranged complain about ranged

So many choose to play ranged because you don't always have to fight other players in a pvp situation to do some damage. You can play passively and often in safety, and you can still hold your own if you are forced into melee (especially with new 1 handers). Risk versus reward is very very bad (injustice etc)
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Nehvar on October 19, 2013, 05:45:42 am
What counters ranged? More ranged...that's pretty much it.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: San on October 19, 2013, 05:58:14 am
Quote from: Kafein on October 19, 2013, 01:30:33 am
I hardly ever see cav getting dehorsed by ranged survive their ground napping.


I've done it many times in only 56 body armor (but 25 strength and 8IF). You have to be smart about where and how you get dehorsed when taking a risk. Definitely a 'no' in front of arbalests and throwers, for instance.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Legs on October 19, 2013, 06:29:30 am
The best way to kill ranged is with an armored horse and a shield. You're tanky enough to just eat their arrows, they can't outrun you, and even if you miss your actual attack they're squishy enough to be really injured by a good bump.

If you're too poor or if you don't want to be "that guy" bumpslashing on a heavy horse, you could try beating them at their own game. Get a crossbow and counter-snipe. Other ranged tend to be easy to hit since they stand still to shoot and don't carry shields. Of course depending on how sneaky you are and what kind of cover you're using they could try to surround you and shoot while you're reloading.

A third option is to use a high-agility build. Archers tend to get tunnel vision, zooming in and focusing on their target, and with a sneak attack you can often kill them with the first 1-2 hits before they can even switch weapons. You also approach more quickly with more athletics, giving them less time to shoot or even to notice you. It makes dodging much easier and prevents them from kiting or just straight up running away from you. The downside is that you'll still probably get noticed/kited/shot up if you try to approach a group of archers like this.

Some people might be tempted to try using heavier armor or getting a shield but these are poor choices imo since they just slow you down and make you easier to hit.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Tzar on October 19, 2013, 10:27:29 am
Shield and throwing weapons counters just about anything on the battlefield, pikemen, archers, cav and 2h/polearm heroes  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Leshma on October 19, 2013, 12:52:33 pm
That's correct Tzar. But way too many shielders are scared of everything, even ranged. For example, I'm easy prey for any shielder if they keep spamming me at point black range. Sadly for them, most are very cautious and try range game and thus die. Same goes for shielder vs ranged, many smart-asses try to kill little buggers from a distance. First bump, then slash, golden rule of fighting ranged when you're carrying a shield.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Torben on October 19, 2013, 12:58:48 pm
A heavy lance that can actually kill with a blow to an unarmored head,  mounted on a ninja cav.  good ol times :'/
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on October 19, 2013, 01:13:12 pm
High speed ultra light armour shielders.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Corsair831 on October 19, 2013, 01:15:44 pm
to be honest i rarely ever see ranged as a threat; they're more like sheep to be sheperded, or more frequently, free kills. This could have something to do with me being an agi shield build.

Even so, the way cRPG is balanced, I would rather have 5 heavily armoured noob cav on cataphracts with arabian cavalry swords; or 5 noobs in heraldric transitional with 2h / polearms, on my team than 5 archers.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: rufio on October 19, 2013, 01:17:33 pm
il just sneak in here and say ranged needs stagger atleast halfed. this is not rufio posting, this is someone else who never lobbyd against ranged,just borrowing his account.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Fartface on October 19, 2013, 01:42:31 pm
Quote from: rufio on October 19, 2013, 01:17:33 pm
il just sneak in here and say ranged needs stagger atleast halfed. this is not rufio posting, this is someone else who never lobbyd against ranged,just borrowing his account.
I agree with this.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Sharpe on October 19, 2013, 01:54:30 pm
People on forums , saying nerf ranged are a good counter
Then in game it goes
Ninjas
Shielders
Cavalry
Other Ranged
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Adamar on October 19, 2013, 02:01:52 pm
Other ranged, if the usual classes can't seem to get organized.

But quality of ranged rather than quantity. Ballance the game in a way that the most efficient shooters are the ones who also fight in melee. Thus the large numbers of light archers are gone, as they wont be able to play properly anymore.

Bring on the hate.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Ronin on October 19, 2013, 02:11:38 pm
First of all, the biggest counter to the class x is always class x.

You need infantry to stop infantry
You need ranged power to combat ranged power
You need a unit with high mobility to match the enemies' high mobility units

From a strategical point of view, if you're lacking any type of unit in your team, you will always be in a trouble; in most circumstances at least.

That doesn't mean, however; there are no counters to each class. Like:
- shields
- throwing weapons
- yet better, throwing weapons and shields
- cavalry, to prevent them from kiting
- killing the enemy main force, in other words infantry before the archers can do enough damage to your team; as the ranged damage/time ratio is no match for melee damage/time ratio.
- and most importantly, carrying the melee battle to them; high agility infantry excel better in this
- another reliable ranged fire, as it has been already said. And no, throwing is not considered as a "reliable" source of ranged fire in my book. Less ammo, low accuracy, short attack range makes throwing to fulfill a different role, more like skirmishing. (I don't mean any disrespect to throwing weapons. They are very reliable for what they are supposed to be)
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Tibe on October 19, 2013, 02:33:45 pm
Tankcav is the most solid offensive. Ive mostly played an average shielderbuild for quite some time now. 2 or more shielders moving with caution in a way that the rangedgroup cant flank em is the most effective. I occasionally charge em with caution solo. If they cant flank you, they have nothing, so charging with caution in a way that the rangedblob wont encircle you is the most solid way. Occasionally I take too long with this and the assisting gankinfantry arrive and screw me and occasionally I murder an entire towerfull of em at once. Bit of luck is in play here aswell.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Molly on October 19, 2013, 04:57:12 pm
Quote from: Jeraz on October 19, 2013, 02:45:58 am
As an archer my self:

Other ranged
Shielders
and Sneaking up on me (mostly ninja/agi)

Also 2 or more cav works very effective.
Sneaking up is only valid if there is a small amount of ranged. With the quadrillionz of archer lately, you will always be spotted and then shot to pieces. Not valid any more.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 19, 2013, 06:50:27 pm
As xbower I think the following things counter me:

- Archers
- Xbowers
- HA
- HX
- Cav (1 is enough if he doesnt ride away anymore, the more the harder)
- all kinds of Infantry that spotted me and continues to follow when I bolt (the heavier the Armour the easier it is to escape ofc)
- Ninjas
- Throwers
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: BlueKnight on October 19, 2013, 10:06:48 pm
Quote from: Grumpy_Nic on October 19, 2013, 06:50:27 pm
As xbower I think the following things counter me:

- Archers
- Xbowers
- HA
- HX
- Cav (1 is enough if he doesnt ride away anymore, the more the harder)
- all kinds of Infantry that spotted me and continues to follow when I bolt (the heavier the Armour the easier it is to escape ofc)
- Ninjas
- Throwers

Funny how they counter xbow when you can 1hit half of your counters...
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 10:10:57 pm
big piece of wood that you tie to your arm called shield.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: _Sebastian_ on October 19, 2013, 10:31:53 pm
Alcohol is the only solution...
Drunken players are able to counter anything!
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 19, 2013, 10:58:50 pm
Quote from: Corsair831 on October 19, 2013, 12:51:35 am
brainpower


This, which is why range will always be overnerfed and have how the bows work completely change multiple times a year in some futile attempt to find a "fix."


Pubbers are stupid, want to rambo, and you have to balance for them.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: LordBerenger on October 19, 2013, 11:34:19 pm
Quote from: Kafein on October 19, 2013, 01:30:33 am
It also happens to be the most effective

*2handed Greatsword lolstabber uses forum whining......It's Super Effective!*

*Archer defeated*
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Joseph Porta on October 19, 2013, 11:39:44 pm
2h, 2h counters everything
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Kalam on October 19, 2013, 11:53:02 pm
As a 'ninja', my biggest issue is that ranged these days can take two hits to the head. Honestly, solo ranged are easy enough to counter. Even two ranged who aren't used to working together. Ranged just makes setting up crossfires a no brainer. It encourages teamwork, much like pikes. Teamwork is the only real counter, unless your team has far less ranged.

The biggest problem with ranged (assuming both teams utilize good teamwork) is that they control the battlefield. Not the individual damage or rate of fire. Every ranged player has a chance to hit you, and there's nothing you can do until you get there. If you've got the athletics to catch up to them quickly, chances are, you don't have the power strike to end them quickly. Now, if there were enough 'mes' (or Mateys, anyone with high athletics who makes it his duty to chase ranged) then it might be a more effective counter.

Let's address the 'intelligence'. People, hiding in this game is boring and negated by open maps. Sure, if it was real life (or a weird game mode where respawn timers were set to 24 hours or more) I might move very cautiously from hiding place to hiding place and expect my team to do the same, all the while staying spread out until we converge on the ranged from multiple angles. That's time we don't have, and well, if I wanted to do that I'd play ARMA.

As an archer, my biggest counter are.. throwers and multiple crossbowmen. So still ranged.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 20, 2013, 12:55:14 am
Quote from: BlueKnight on October 19, 2013, 10:06:48 pm
Funny how they counter xbow when you can 1hit half of your counters...

Funny how all of these things can 1hit me aswell. Everything can kill everything in this game, still these are threats and ranged only kicks ass as long as ranged is left alone. If enemies put on pressure its pretty much over, speaking xbows.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Gurnisson on October 20, 2013, 01:20:20 am
Quote from: Grumpy_Nic on October 20, 2013, 12:55:14 am
Funny how all of these things can 1hit me aswell. Everything can kill everything in this game, still these are threats and ranged only kicks ass as long as ranged is left alone. If enemies put on pressure its pretty much over, speaking xbows.

If you're dedicated, yes. Still, a crossbowman hybrid is a handful in melee.

I find that a 15/21 turning into a 15/24 build with a scottish/short arming, good 1 slot shield, arbalest and steel bolts is an op set-up. A 1-slot shield with a crossbow able to one-shot and swords with over 30 pierce and cut at +3 is way overboard. No real down-sides to a build like that, especially after the buff to 1h thrust.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Grumbs on October 20, 2013, 01:53:05 am
The "brainpower" answer is kind of a cheap ego buffing answer imo. You can say that playing like complete idiots will get you killed easier by ranged, but playing smart will help you kill anything. Its no different against ranged, its just they have a unique ability that force multiplies in certain situations and detracts from the overall fun of the mod for a lot of players

You could buff the shit out of anything and say "brainpower" is a counter. Make great mauls super OP and you just have to kite them, see one and get your ranged to focus them down etc. Buffing maulers would not necessarily result in better overall gameplay though, which is the problem we have with too much ranged.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: DaveUKR on October 20, 2013, 02:32:28 am
Things that used to counter me:
- rain
- teamkills
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Rebelyell on October 20, 2013, 02:54:56 am
Quote from: DaveUKR on October 20, 2013, 02:32:28 am
Things that used to counter me:
- rain
- teamkills
so we need more kapikulu players ingame
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Bulzur on October 20, 2013, 05:33:38 am
Best counters to any kind of ranged is :

1. Xbows :
They usually 1hit the recharging xbow or the "not-moving-cause-shooting" archer, waiting for this perfect shot. Can also hide just after the shot, making the other range unaware of his location. Less effective in rain.

2. Heavy Cavalry with shield :
Range can't kill that one easily, so they'll have to pull out their melee weapon. It then comes to skill to bump-slash the range. Rather ineffective on mountains and such.

3. HA :
They can completely prevent an xbow from recharging, or an archer from aiming-shooting, when the bump is used. Less effective on mountains and such.

4. Fast Cav with 1hitting ability :
Range are bound to tunnel vision at one point of the round. "Damn that bastard, i'll get him, just you wait, i'll cru... WTF, WHERE DID THAT CAV CAME FROM. NERFFFFF" Less effective on mountains and such.

5. Ninjas and kinngrimms :
Dedicated footmen, ready to use 50sec just to circle around and kill thoses range. If spotted, ninjas should use dodging, while kinngrimms should avoid getting ganked.

6. Archers :
Only in this position. If an archer hits you, you may loose as much as half your health, but you'll be aware of him, and can : hide, go away, dodge his arrows. But when there's 5 archers targetting you, then yes, you're dead.


Tatar arrows are probably best against other ranged. But now, with lots of people with heirloomed armor and such, it's better to use bodkins for all expect unarmored horses and peasants.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Thorondor on October 20, 2013, 11:05:33 am
Quote from: Rebelyell on October 20, 2013, 02:54:56 am
so we need more kapikulu players ingame
we like to fuck melee up. can't do much about ranged. sorry  :P
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Thomek on October 20, 2013, 01:31:45 pm
Quote from: Torben on October 19, 2013, 12:58:48 pm
A heavy lance that can actually kill with a blow to an unarmored head,  mounted on a ninja cav.  good ol times :'/

Still can you shameless lobbyist. You just did it to me the other day from full hp. Skilled lance cav can still reap rewards.. No it's not as easy as it used to be.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: BlueKnight on October 20, 2013, 03:20:40 pm
Quote from: Thomek on October 20, 2013, 01:31:45 pm
Still can you shameless lobbyist. You just did it to me the other day from full hp. Skilled lance cav can still reap rewards.. No it's not as easy as it used to be.

Thomek, you shouldn't call Torben 'shameless lobbyist'. Seriously heavy glance is the worst weapon you can use on horseback, other weapons are way way better. Heavy glance may be good with a very special form of riding like on arabian, where you adjust your timing with your horse's speed and maneuver, not by timing attack properly. For other kind of horses that don't accelerate and slow down this quickly, lance is incomparably better.

Torben is right when it comes to heavy glance and I used to think everyone agreed with that.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Fartface on October 20, 2013, 07:42:13 pm
GTXing cRPG.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Adamar on October 20, 2013, 10:39:42 pm
Quote from: george on October 20, 2013, 07:42:13 pm
GTXing cRPG.

Sure you are
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: Torben on October 21, 2013, 06:38:52 pm
Quote from: BlueKnight on October 20, 2013, 03:20:40 pm
Heavy glance may be good with a very special form of riding like on arabian, where you adjust your timing with your horse's speed and maneuver, not by timing attack properly.

holy crap first time i see sb agree with me on that. thats why im begging at least for a speed buff,  its the most predictable weapon,  ahrg -.-

Quote from: Thomek on October 20, 2013, 01:31:45 pm
Still can you shameless lobbyist. You just did it to me the other day from full hp. Skilled lance cav can still reap rewards.. No it's not as easy as it used to be.

god knows why that happened.  I do know that i can hit an archer 2 times in the unarmored head without him dying unless he runs directly into my lance.  which doesnt happen a lot. never.
Title: Re: What do you think counters ranged?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 21, 2013, 06:53:50 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on October 21, 2013, 05:42:39 pm
Nothing is in a vacuum, what works in one round versus one enemy team may not work against another.  Everything we're saying is anecdotal and lot of is hyperbole.

Typically speaking, other archers/xbows will counter archers. 
Cavalry (lancers with shields, or 1h/2h) will counter archers.
Horse Ranged will counter ground ranged.
Throwers can counter ranged.
Melee in groups can counter ranged (especially if they have some ranged or cav support).


Using teamwork and tactics can counter any class in the game with pretty much any other class in the game.

I'm tired of the game being balanced for rambo tryhards who have no desire to use a little logic, teamwork, or adaptation to the conditions on the battlefield.  Let these fuckers whine and bitch and complain.  Let them continue bashing their heads into the wall and crying that the dev's won't remove the wall instead of them going around, or over, or under the wall (or asking a friend for a boost over the wall, or for a catapult to destroy the wall).