cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 02:41:56 am

Title: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 02:41:56 am
Ok, so I've thought up 4 things that should be easy/quick to implement that I think would make c-rpg even better. Most of them have been mentioned at some point, but I would like to remind the devs about it, and hear you opinions. :)

1. LEADERSHIP CHAT

Give the person with the highest Win:Loss ratio on each team a special Leadership coloured team-chat. (Like, purple or bright green)
With this he can issue commands, and the players would be free to follow them or not. One can argue that players would refuse to follow etc, but I think this would only be true in the beginning. Once a commander has developed trust with the players and an outstanding W:L ratio people will start following him. If they will not follow a commander, his W:L ratio will naturally worsen and another one will be no.1

Of course, players that can "carry teams alone" will have an advantage, but I think it's ok if the commander is also a hero! Over the long run though, autobalance will take care of his W:L ratio, and only his commands will be there to shift the balance back. (A cool additional feature would be that the commander could give away command to the next on the list if he has to go etc. )

Reason:
I do believe we can have tactical battles like in the old days when there was proximity based XP. Often one could see the effectiveness of charges and interesting teamplay going on. I think this would also lead to an awareness of teamplay among the players that we haven't seen much of yet.

How?:
Start to track the win loss ratio's of all players, the only true measure of their battlefield effectiveness and teamwork. Each MAP nominate the leaders of both teams after 10 seconds of the first round. *Would be awesome if it was a full screen message to both teams. Players should be able to tick a box on the website if they would like to be leaders.

To me this doesn't look like a lot of work for a dev, and could be worth testing in c-RPG before M:BG anyway. Ozin? you busy? :)

2. REMOVE HX
One can ask a moral question here: Do the class substract or add to the overall "Fun For Most" of cRPG?  I think HX leads to most fun for the HX, and is generally too detrimental to other classes. He also doesn't fill a vital need on the battlefield that can't be replaced by HA, which is a more active class with higher shots per minute, lower accuracy and lower damage, though probably higher dps. Point is, the HA needs to sacrifice more than the HX in terms of points and armor.

In general, I think most players agree they are lame. Lame to fight and lame to die from. They also seem a bit lame to play, but what do I know. Not everyone likes to melee.. Overall I think they are detrimental to c-rpg, as well as OP.

HX battle features:
(click to show/hide)

How?
Simple, remove reloading of crossbows on horse in the weapon attributes.

3. GIVE RANGED FULL POINTS FOR HITS
Lately I've seen ranged with staggering K:D ratios but low points. I think a buff to their points would do two things: 1. Give them valour, 2. show everyone a more accurate estimation of their effectiveness on the leaderboards. I think archer-hits do slightly more damage per hit than melee strikes in most cases, so why not give them full points for it?

How?
I'm sure devs knows how to do this! :) probably just a parameter somewhere and thus a 3 minute job.

4. INCREASE CROSSBOW WEIGHT
Skilled crossbowmen already drop their ranged weapons for melee. I think this is a reasonable tradeoff for their ranged abilities. They can always pick them up again. Besides, many bows are already heavier than xbows, something which doesn't make any sense realistically.. (If that's an argument) I also think it fits nicely thematically, what crossbowman would fight with his heavy crossbow on his back?
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Bjord on October 17, 2013, 02:44:17 am
I seriously burst into laughter at the "REMOVE HX" part. :lol:
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Rebelyell on October 17, 2013, 02:48:21 am
Remove HX :evil:
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Son Of Odin on October 17, 2013, 03:07:03 am
No nerf to horse speed or manouver? Not even heavy lance nerf?! Thomek you gone soft!
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Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 03:26:06 am
Well, the ranged True Points, will make it clear to everyone that they are OP, so they will get nerfed back, the we will have a cav surge, and THEN, ONLY THEN! my friend, will cav be nerfed. Give or take 2 years. :D
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: HappyPhantom on October 17, 2013, 04:40:07 am
+ Add higher STR requirement for Plate armours.

(Edit: I'd like to see this bumped from 16 to at least 18)
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Hoppster on October 17, 2013, 04:51:19 am
1- not too sure about weather or not this would work, great in theory but what if the person doesnt want to do it? pass it on to next one?

2- Excellent idea, remove it now, ill be so happy :D adds nothing to the game, never played it, probably never will. free respecs to HX players though

3- the points for archery are silly, it's impossible to top the board just shooting, even if u kill half the server every round.

4- seems legit, weights are abit crazy anyway, not much realism there, i mean a stack of arrows weighs 2.5 flamberges

But u already made cRPG a hundred times better by banning jarlek again :D
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: POOPHAMMER on October 17, 2013, 05:32:39 am
make a siege ladder only server
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Gurnisson on October 17, 2013, 07:51:19 am
5. Remove Katana
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: no_rules_just_play on October 17, 2013, 08:14:47 am
The person with the best k:d or score is not always the best leader and certainly not in siege where this often is the guy that sullied out to the front while leaving the flag alone, to be taken a minute later.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on October 17, 2013, 08:23:02 am
The OP says win:loss ratio, not k:d.

I guess it's possible to be bad and win a lot if you get put on good teams all the time though.

I'd like to add

Reduce repair chance when server does not have enough players for multis.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Kafein on October 17, 2013, 09:26:33 am
the we will have a cav surge

In the current sorry state of horses, riding skill and cav weapons, that's not going to happen.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Strudog on October 17, 2013, 09:49:38 am


3. GIVE RANGED FULL POINTS FOR HITS
Lately I've seen ranged with staggering K:D ratios but low points. I think a buff to their points would do two things: 1. Give them valour, 2. show everyone a more accurate estimation of their effectiveness on the leaderboards. I think archer-hits do slightly more damage per hit than melee strikes in most cases, so why not give them full points for it?


oh god no, 40 + chances of getting 3-5 points, would mean a potential of 200 points every round, would mean archer valour every round
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Kafein on October 17, 2013, 09:55:51 am
By the way afaik the system works exactly the same for archers. It's just that arrows do the damage of intercontinental ballistic missiles and that's not how you valor whore.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: F i n on October 17, 2013, 11:08:05 am
1. LEADERSHIP CHAT

Might be useful sometimes.


2. REMOVE HX

No. Definately not. Have you ever played as HX ? It's actually not as easy as you might think.

Horses and their riders are an easier target for throwers and archers than Infantry - bcus they're moving less dynamically.

Tho, i kind of can agree to the "no reloads on Horseback" part... I was always wondering how that's even possible :). At least in real life it wasn't.

But if the devs choose fun & diversity over realism here, i think its fine.

I actually really like HX Players. Think of Hate - he hardly delays any round, playing quite a risky style.

There are others tho, trying to survive as long as possible, avoiding fights - but the problem here is not the class they're playing but the player himself (and for that we've got admins like you right? :) )

3. GIVE RANGED FULL POINTS FOR HITS

Why should someone get valor for fighting on long distances?

They can attack without any threats to their weak bodies, if they know what they're doing and if they're keeping their distance.

Tho if a melee dude is in the middle of 3 enemies attacking him, killing them all - i think he'd rather deserves the valor.

 (low risk - low reward / high risk - big reward) i think thats a good system)

4. INCREASE CROSSBOW WEIGHT
100 % agreed
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Molly on October 17, 2013, 11:51:59 am
5. Rework of the the whole xp-system incl. the removal of valour (at least for the winning team)
This is so desperately needed. I don't really have a proper suggestion on how to rework it but the current multiplier system sucks ass...

And remove valour either completely or make it only achievable for the losing side. Being exceptional in a good team is way easier than being exceptional in a bad team. The winning team already gets the multiplier raised as bonus.
Giving valour only to those who do exceptional in the losing team would finally make valour meaning- and useful.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Kafein on October 17, 2013, 11:55:29 am
5. Rework of the the whole xp-system incl. the removal of valour (at least for the winning team)
This is so desperately needed. I don't really have a proper suggestion on how to rework it but the current multiplier system sucks ass...

And remove valour either completely or make it only achievable for the losing side. Being exceptional in a good team is way easier than being exceptional in a bad team. The winning team already gets the multiplier raised as bonus.
Giving valour only to those who do exceptional in the losing team would finally make valour meaning- and useful.

Valour for the losing team would further encourage dickheads to camp and play hero at the end when their team starts losing in battle.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 12:05:46 pm
W:L Ratio and leadership

ok I will explain a bit more,  the theoretical basis for Win:Loss ratio.  (Which is Round based, or map based, it's undecided atm)

a. One of the factors of the autobalancer is K:D ratio
b. Autobalance to some extent nullifies your Win:Loss ratio by shifting you to the weakest team.

The only way to "Beat the system" is by teamwork, most powerfully:doing things that are good for the team that doesn't result in personal kills for you.
(It could be kiting/splitting enemy team, bumping, staggering opponents at the right moment, moving cleverly in melee, etc.)

Or, you guessed it, leading the team to tactical victories.

Removing HX
Well Fin, I don't mind fighting them. It's just that in the greater equation of gameplay, in the sense of "Most fun for Most" I think they are detrimental. I know what you say fin, I'm  a thrower too :) and probably throwers are probably the best infantry "counters" to them. Hate is not the worst of them though, he is a kind of HX with a conscience :). He doesn't bump as much as he could have done, or avoid fights he should avoid.

Ranged Points
Take a look at K:D ratio's of good ranged, and you will see their points are way way off where they should be. I think giving them valour is fine, and soon enough they will get nerfed, because it will simply be too clear to all how powerful they are...  :twisted:
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Torben on October 17, 2013, 12:06:53 pm
Ranged Points
Take a look at K:D ratio's of good ranged, and you will see their points are way way off where they should be. I think giving them valour is fine, and soon enough they will get nerfed, because it will simply be too clear to all how powerful they are...  :twisted:

get a shield xD
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 12:08:25 pm
@Benkei

We are just listing easy fixes here!

@Torben
Think ranged has just as good reason as being afraid of me as I have of them.. Just look at their K:D ratio's and pay attention.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: rufio on October 17, 2013, 12:25:04 pm
half ranged stagger, oui?
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Paul on October 17, 2013, 12:52:52 pm
No to all points. Thank you for your feedback.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 01:18:31 pm
come on paul, you can do better.. write a proper reply pls.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Fartface on October 17, 2013, 01:21:53 pm
come on paul, you can do better.. write a proper reply pls.
IRONY
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: DaveUKR on October 17, 2013, 01:39:38 pm
Thomek got owned by classes that counter him and made a ragepost, I can't see anything else here :D
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Segd on October 17, 2013, 01:42:43 pm
No to all points. Thank you for your feedback.
Even this?   :(
5. Remove Katana
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 02:00:07 pm
Thomek got owned by classes that counter him and made a ragepost, I can't see anything else here :D

Pff, no! Ask Hate, I think we are about 50/50 when it comes to who kills who the most. Xbowers are fucked the moment I see them. :)  I carry tools to deal with both range and cav, that's just the way my build works..

But of course, I only have my point of view to write from.. Though, I think I'm not the only player to be sick of HX, no teamplay, xbow power and range points. I honestly think these changes would make crpg better overall. Trying to shift metagame away from the ranged bump-fest that exists currently.

The reason for this is of course that the better people can block, the less effective melee is, because it takes much longer to kill any given enemy.

Thus the deciding factor for 70% of individual deaths are either cav bumps or ranged. Those things are skill-nullifiers, removing a sense of control, something arguably important for gameplay.

To me, and many others the real deal with c-RPG is kicks. I get kicks and adrenaline when fighting in melee, like no other game out there can produce. The fixes I proposed would increase the chance of kicks, and reduce the lame rage.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 17, 2013, 02:11:02 pm
1. People wont listen, its not like having a different colored text will change much.

2. No just nerf them.

3&4. Ranged is fine.

5. Get a shield  :twisted:
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 02:15:48 pm
1. I think they will listen. What if someone really talented in commanding comes along? What if achieves a great W:L ratio? People will listen, because they want to win rounds. We've even seen it before with Merc_Phaz for example. Without any real confirmation that his tactics worked, without any special text. (or phaze or whatever :)

2. No just remove them, they are the no1 timewasting class as well. Removing HX=More crpg playtime for all.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Torben on October 17, 2013, 02:31:49 pm
the majority will enjoy a commander,  as teamwork is fun.  everytime tw happens spontaniously its great.

using w/l will however favor good players in a very good clan.  which is ok though,  as they might get the team to work with the clan presented in the team.  bla,  at work,  cant think of better words ^^
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Paul on October 17, 2013, 02:41:38 pm
The only non-bleh point is the leadership chat but automatically giving it to the most successful guy doesn't mean he wants to lead. Instead of this it would be vote based, elected once per map or until the old commander leaves. I'd also like to have that the commander spot receives access to  bird eye view like in strategus beta (spawn) with class indicators over the own troops but that would take work.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Phew on October 17, 2013, 03:09:27 pm
Give the person with the highest Win:Loss ratio on each team a special Leadership coloured team-chat. (Like, purple or bright green)

Oh god no. On NA2, the last thing we need is for demento's capslock ragefests at his team to be more prominent.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 17, 2013, 03:20:19 pm
@Paul: If you read my post, it's clear that players must tick a box if they want to be commanders. As well, in the field, the commander can give command to the next on the list.

Yes, I know there are potential for lots of features, but this post is all about relatively easy fixes, within current dev-effort levels. :)

Your idea would make it less likely to be implemented because it sounds like work. My idea sounds like a cool little feature, easily and quickly made, and worth a shot! (If it works, you can repeat it for melee)

If it is a success, it can of course be expanded upon. And yes, downvoting a bad commander should probably be an option, but I think that after a while, most commanders that deserve the spot will be rather competent.

This is step by step how it could be implemented:

1. Track Win:Loss ratio. (Some code that adds 1,0,-1 to a W:L ratio database field to each player at the end of each round)
2. Harald makes a tick box on the website for players who wants to try for commander.
3. At map start: Check who has the best W:L ratio, award special text to one commander on each team.
4. At 15 seconds: Display server side chat message to all players (or full screen message)   "Paul is now commanding Blue team, Bjord is now commanding Red team"
5. Add button to each commander to give away command to next on list. If done, display new server message accordingly.

To my eyes, it looks like a few hours work to implement, but what do I know. Worth a shot imo. 

(click to show/hide)

@Phew: Sorry forgot, this is obviously for battle. In siege it wouldn't work because of the aggressive autobalancer, as well as tactics are OP there.. :)
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 17, 2013, 04:39:42 pm
Thomek try using teamwork for once, you'll see how much better the game is, and how much easier it is to not get picked off by Horse ranged, xbows, or archers when you're a lone straggler.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Torost on October 17, 2013, 04:57:36 pm
Crossbows are unholy abominations. Burn them all in a big pyre.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on October 17, 2013, 09:46:43 pm
Leadership chat is retarded, nothing is more annoying than retards playing internet general acting as if he's entitled to have everyone follow his commands, people won't follow someone just because of his chat color, also, some byzstacktium is always gonna have the magic leadership chat due to bannerstacking. Teamwork already happens when a large amount of people feel like doing teamwork, teamwork doesn't require teamspeak, magic chat colors or anything, we got voicecommands, bat flags, and team chat, that's all we need.

After the latest HX nerf Horsecrossbowmen are fine, their superior (to HA) damage, accuracy, and riding skill is offset by their reloads being extremely slow. I hate(_more) horsecrossbowmen as much much as the next guy, but they're fine as they are. Fun fact: The amount of bolts they can carry and their reload time leaves them with it taking about the same amount of time for them to empty an ammo stack as it does an archer.

The only issue with ranged points is that ranged don't get proximity points for their own hits, as a horsethrower I get nearly twice the points if I headshot a cav from facehug range as I would if I headshot him from far off, also, ranged isn't OP, it is annoying, but certainly not OP.

I wouldn't mind crossbow weight being increased, kiting crossbowers are gay as fuck.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 17, 2013, 09:59:41 pm
bullshit
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: San on October 17, 2013, 10:07:52 pm
Fix valor to be separate for each team, too. No screwing over one team's valor because the other team was unbalanced with a few more outstanding players.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 17, 2013, 10:24:54 pm
Fix valor to be separate for each team, too. No screwing over one team's valor because the other team was unbalanced with a few more outstanding players.

This x100.  It shouldn't matter how much the average score of the other team was.  Especially if you're on the losing team it seems like it's going to be harder to get valor in the current system.  The valor system should only take your team's score into account. 

Thanks for bringing that up, one of those things I think about in game fairly regularly, but forget about on forums.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Phew on October 17, 2013, 10:25:37 pm
Fix valor to be separate for each team, too. No screwing over one team's valor because the other team was unbalanced with a few more outstanding players.

Yeah, especially on siege, since attacking and defending are so different, they should have separate valor calcs.

Although, the multiplier/point/valor system is crappy to begin with, so I'd rather the devs just implement a reward system that is actually a function of difficulty (kill a high level/loomed player and get a big reward, kill a peasant and get nothing) and performance, rather than just praying you get on the bannerstack team and/or attack team on siege.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Paul on October 17, 2013, 10:37:31 pm
I looked into the commander chat stuff. Seems like new things involving strings being sent can't be done without moving old stuff around because TW hates us. Dunno if it is worth the risk and effort. Make a poll for commander chat. At >80% approval I might consider thinking about it more.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Bjord on October 18, 2013, 01:05:35 am
Paul, we appreciate you. :*
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Butan on October 18, 2013, 02:28:34 am
At >80% approval I might consider thinking about it more.



80% of those who will vote no probably "dont think it would work" but I'm pretty sure 100% would like a try.
New policies are often frowned upon whatever their merits...
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: rufio on October 19, 2013, 01:04:14 pm
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half ranged stagger
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Nightmare798 on October 19, 2013, 03:04:50 pm
(click to show/hide)

To be honest, i think that less points for ranged is perfectly justified. After all, they are able to inflict harm upon others, while being in no danger themselves.

note: Ranged vs ranged is a different story.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Nehvar on October 19, 2013, 04:39:28 pm
I +1'd your ideas but I've been playing this game too long to think you have a chance of realizing any of them.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: _Deadeye_ on October 21, 2013, 01:24:33 pm
Remove crossbows from game! And horses too... So we can make sure there are no HX. There were no xbows and horses in that era anyway right?
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Kafein on October 21, 2013, 02:29:54 pm
1. Track Win:Loss ratio. (Some code that adds 1,0,-1 to a W:L ratio database field to each player at the end of each round)

Nitpicking : this is not how a ratio works.

I very much like the commander chat idea. I think it's simple and could be effective.


Another simple change I have to suggest is to remove "teams are not fair". It penalizes low pop servers way too much.


And also this :

Fix valor to be separate for each team, too. No screwing over one team's valor because the other team was unbalanced with a few more outstanding players.
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 21, 2013, 09:19:11 pm
Nitpicking : this is not how a ratio works.

You are right of course,  I just thought a point system would be easier to visualize for readers. A ratio would be more accurate determining if people have close to the same wins and losses that's for sure.  And a point system would increase more over time, sementing the position of the good commanders who played a lot more.

Perhaps the best way to express a ratio in game would be to convert it to points vs 1.

So a great commander has: 2.56:1    a bad commander 0.6:1  , or omit the 1 just display 2.56 and 0.6
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Torben on October 21, 2013, 09:26:57 pm
what happened to the poll? :/
Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Real_Dece_Guy on October 21, 2013, 09:31:55 pm
The only suggestion I'll comment on at the moment is 2.  I think the problem is already largely fixed.

First off, since the last nerf, the ratio of HA to HX has gone down tremendously.  Before I saw roughly even amounts of both, with a slight HA edge, now I barely see a single HX. The ratio has to be at least 5:1, and most probably higher. 

Second, every time, bar none, I have seen someone delaying at the end of round since then, it has been a HA, not HX.

Title: Re: 4 easy fixes to make cRPG better.
Post by: Thomek on October 21, 2013, 09:36:06 pm
idk about NA situation.. there's usually one or 2 HX on eu1 at any one time. Not many HA at all.