cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: TomMyyY on May 13, 2011, 02:49:53 am

Title: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: TomMyyY on May 13, 2011, 02:49:53 am
I like the fact that the devs balanced the heirlooming a bit concerning horses and shields, but the heirloomed stats on crossbows + bolts are insane.

Here the stats of arbalest and steel bolts normal/MW.

Arbalest
missile speed: 60
weight: 3.8
accuracy: 96
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 18
missile speed: 60
max ammo: 1
thrust damage: 79 pierce

missile speed: 64 (+4)
weight: 3.8
accuracy: 99 (+3)
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 21 (+3)
missile speed: 64 (+4)
max ammo: 1
thrust damage: 87 pierce (+8?!?)


Steel Bolts
weapon length: 63
weight: 2.3
weapon length: 63
max ammo: 12
thrust damage: 8 pierce
slots: 1

weapon length: 63
weight: 2.3
weapon length: 63
max ammo: 13 (+1)
thrust damage: 13 pierce (+5)

slots: 1

So in the end you get a massive +13 damage and substantial increases in all the other stats as well, these increases are the same for every crossbow.

Is it just me or is this way over the top?
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 02:58:29 am
agree....
that damage...
and yes i have that mw xbow and bolts....

and don't complain about cost of that xbow...
i have 97 000 gold on my graveflower char....

100 damage who can survive that????? 

i know not you... and me and tomyyY and he and....

that all nerfs but
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Trael on May 13, 2011, 03:46:16 am
I like the fact that the devs balanced the heirlooming a bit concerning horses and shields, but the heirloomed stats on crossbows + bolts are insane.

Here the stats of arbalest and steel bolts normal/MW.

Arbalest
missile speed: 60
weight: 3.8
accuracy: 96
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 18
missile speed: 60
max ammo: 1
thrust damage: 79 pierce

missile speed: 64 (+4)
weight: 3.8
accuracy: 99 (+3)
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 21 (+3)
missile speed: 64 (+4)
max ammo: 1
thrust damage: 87 pierce (+8?!?)


Steel Bolts
weapon length: 63
weight: 2.3
weapon length: 63
max ammo: 12
thrust damage: 8 pierce
slots: 1

weapon length: 63
weight: 2.3
weapon length: 63
max ammo: 13 (+1)
thrust damage: 13 pierce (+5)

slots: 1

So in the end you get a massive +13 damage and substantial increases in all the other stats as well, these increases are the same for every crossbow.

Is it just me or is this way over the top?

With all respect i would like to remind you to do math... Crossbows dont get bonus to damage or any stats (not counting reloadspeed and accuracy) from anything in game. PowerDraw archerbuild can get 100% damagebonus, meaning that if that one would get half bonus in his/her heirloom statraises, it still ends up being same ammount of added damage.

Sure boost is quite huge, but so is crossbows crappy without heirlooming at moment. Bolt speed is pretty much joke as atleast with lighter crossbows it feels more like placing bolt to hang mid air and hoping that someone runs into it.

What i personally would like to see would be slight reduction in crossbow base damage and making bolt speed and damage raise with wpf. so that builds really going for crossbow by putting wpf to it would have bolts flying with speed that would allow them to hit anything without needing to hope that they get lucky and someone dodges by change to their bolt hanging and slowly gliding throught air.

And before anyone goes saying "but thats not realistic, crossbow launches bolt at same speed as long as it is same crossbow lauching it, no matter who shoots it"... Newsflash: _SO DO BOWS IN REAL LIFE TOO_ :P no matter how much better someone is at aiming with bow, with same bow & arrow, they just cant make it fly faster. But still bows seem to get damage and projectile speed boost with wpf.

Would also solve whine about crossbows not needing any skillpoints, after that they would end up needing weaponmaster for user to get wpf points to get crossbows wpf up for them to get better.

wpf 1 crossbows could have lower damage and maybe even slightly lower projectilespeed to discourage "but people can use them as sidearms" whine and usage.

bottom point, ones putting wpf points in them would end up getting proper weapons with fast enough projectiles to even sometimes hit targets that are aware of them (unlike currently) and sidearmwhiners could be happy to know that they took less damage becouse user had no extra points of wpf in crossbows.

For some reference, when used in ranged duel, currently mastercraft lightcrossbow with 170 wpf can be used to duel slow archer, if timing of user is near perfect and acher has bad aim, as minimum time user needs to be stationary when reloading is just less that time archer needs to end shootinganimation and getting bow back up for next arrow. Wpf 170 needs some serious wm and dedication to crossbows with current system, also crossbows have str as req, so wpf boosted system would not cause them to be one attribute wonders. In addition things already cost more that bows (not that there is nothing wrong with that).

Crossbows currently are allright in other areas but projectile speed, atleast with lighter crossbows slow projectilespeed requires targets to be completely stationary (and not know your aiming at them) or shootingrange to be meleerange at maximum.

With heavier crossbows (arbalest and heavy crossbow) well i think kind of idea is that they can again sometimes oneshot someone with that heirloom progression, what other boost they could get or what else boost would have any idea in it. Becouse there isnt any multipliers applied to damage, 8 points ends up being something around 10% boost to damage max anyways, for arbalest that will cost much, take 2 slots (meaning only 1h melee or cheapest staff if one wants to shoot more that once with it), reload slowly (meaning in most events one wont end up shooting too many bolts with it), thanks to how movement is handled have extremely hard time hitting anything is targets are even half aware of shooter aiming at them (and thanks to long reloadtime dodging isnt nessessary for most of time, as crossbower will end up spending most of time reloading instead of aiming in normal conditions.) and as all projectileweapons (atleast on my computer) suffers from high rate of bolts just vanishing on impact with target player thanks to lag (sure all other projectileweapons have this atlast on me, but with bow thanks to high arrowstacks and high firerate its wont matter all that much). :P

Sure current meleeweapon heirloom bonuses are quite small and atleast comparing just purely numbers those are quite big looking, but cant say my masterwork lightcrossbow would be overpowered, atleast without heirlooms even 7 bolts wont bring blackarmor user down (thats highest i have been able to deliver to someone using black armor, in ultimate feat of accuracy and blackarmoruser just noticing "hey i simply dont need to dodge"), most leatherarmored targets are 2-4 hit frags and naked targets 2 hit kills (sure complete peasants die to 1 hit, but hey they get fragged even by other lvl1 peasant by 1 hit of peasantknife, same knife that will 100% bounce of anyone armored with anything costing 20gold or more for upkeep for couple more levels) :P

Edit: oh yeah, one of reasons i dont use heavier crossbows much anymore on my crossbow chars is that i got kind of fed up by nonheirloomed arbalest not being able to onehit kill even naked people running around exept quite rarely.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 13, 2011, 04:24:46 am
I would like to say crossbows should not be tampered with anymore. They were fine before this buff. But now I think a lot of people are going to cotton onto this buff and overuse the crossbow. Then the crossbow will be nerfed. And balance will be shite again...
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 13, 2011, 07:57:39 am
I agree everything got nerfed except crossbows its really smell like the dev use this sidearm

Also look at my suggestion thread about makeing the regular xbow 2 slots before everyone will be using that instead of the sniper...
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Native_ATS on May 13, 2011, 09:13:41 am
I agree everything got nerfed except crossbows its really smell like the dev use this sidearm

Also look at my suggestion thread about makeing the regular xbow 2 slots before everyone will be using that instead of the sniper...
its bullshit, people cry about throwing, oh throwing needs to be nerffed into the ground cuz its too easy to throw, they can 1shot you... they do like 60p+pt damg so they do like 97p...
then they nerff throwing to shit and Buff the skill-less xbows.... now xbows can deal 100p, that shit can 1 shot you and it has better aim with 0wpf then throwing did at 100wpf  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 13, 2011, 09:18:02 am
its bullshit, people cry about throwing, oh throwing needs to be nerffed into the ground cuz its too easy to throw, they can 1shot you... they do like 60p+pt damg so they do like 97p...
then they nerff throwing to shit and Buff the skill-less xbows.... now xbows can deal 100p, that shit can 1 shot you and it has better aim with 0wpf then throwing did at 100wpf  :rolleyes:

1 thing i noticed so far in all the patches ect ect xbow users have a helping hand among the dev team... must be the only reason why they never nerf that shit weapon..

ANd yes the 2 slot did help but its not enough
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Native_ATS on May 13, 2011, 09:22:31 am
1 thing i noticed so far in all the patches ect ect xbow users have a helping hand among the dev team... must be the only reason why they never nerf that shit weapon..

ANd yes the 2 slot did help but its not enough
.... light xbow dose 68p, 1 slot....
all weapons take 2 slots... i dont count that as a nerff....
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 11:39:31 am
Trael sorry but i can agree....

xbow have best hit ingame best missile speed best acc best everything....
 and they buffed bolts with 5 damage on mw.... oky i can live with that

after throw weapon nerf xbows are op....
it have better damage than throwing lance and you can take 13 or 26 bolts....
it slow weapon but with that acc you don't need be fast.

we need balance for xbows(not nerf but...) almost all archers will die with  1 shot, and ninjas and a lot of shielders and many others players.....

in version 220 i hit somene behind huskral shield....

i dont wan't nerf that weapon i want balance it (some skill more strength req)

i want that x-bow for pure xbowmen 
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: ThePoopy on May 13, 2011, 11:46:15 am
make it 3 slot  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Wulzzz on May 13, 2011, 11:58:43 am
we need balance for xbows(not nerf but...) almost all archers will die with  1 shot, and ninjas and a lot of shielders and many others players.....

I use MW sniperxbow + MW steel bolts..that's like 100 pierce but i still rarely 1 shot anyone strangely.Even many archers in peasant clothes survive 1 shot.
Like everyone puts Ironflesh now i guess.

Btw sniperxbow only makes sense for dedicated (150+wpf) xbowmen anyway imo, else you can just fire 1 shot and have to engage at the enemy with a 1 slot weapon cause of you gotta go close to the enemy with low wpf.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rumaahinen on May 13, 2011, 12:02:05 pm
I agree with Trael. Crossbow heirloom bonuses might look like huge but crossbow damage doesn't increase from skills. For example bows gain damage from powerdraw and wpf. Bows bonuses from heirlooming will actually become bigger bonus than crossbow has. On top of that I think that wpf also increases arrow speed. Lower tier crossbows projectile speed seems to be like joke: 3x heirloomed light crossbow has missile speed 50 while unheirloomed strong bow has missile speed 51. What I think should be done is to nerf base damage of crossbows and make it so that wpf increases damage and projectile speed. Perhaps that way this endless sidearm whine would end.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Vibe on May 13, 2011, 12:25:50 pm
Have to agree that Arbalest loom is a bit too much.

To those who are saying that xbows do not benefit from skills: true, but crossbows have PIERCE damage.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Native_ATS on May 13, 2011, 12:27:55 pm
I agree with Trael. Crossbow heirloom bonuses might look like huge but crossbow damage doesn't increase from skills. For example bows gain damage from powerdraw and wpf. Bows bonuses from heirlooming will actually become bigger bonus than crossbow has. On top of that I think that wpf also increases arrow speed. Lower tier crossbows projectile speed seems to be like joke: 3x heirloomed light crossbow has missile speed 50 while unheirloomed strong bow has missile speed 51. What I think should be done is to nerf base damage of crossbows and make it so that wpf increases damage and projectile speed. Perhaps that way this endless sidearm whine would end.
xbows cost any skill points? Bows need like 7pd to deal crazy damg like your xbow
do you even need wpf to use it at all? bows need like 100wpf+ to even get ok aim... your xbow has better aim at 0wpf then my long bow at 126wpf....
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its is op because anyone can pick it up and 1 shot people... Great range weapon for no trade off...
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: v/onMega on May 13, 2011, 12:33:54 pm
I blame Fasader.

+1 tommyyy, its too much of a buff.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 12:38:17 pm
lets make anty xbow warrrrrrrrrrr


but yea.... we need balance
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Dravic on May 13, 2011, 01:12:06 pm
100 damage who can survive that????? 


A lot of people. + you need to heirloom 6 times, that's impossible for new players, so...
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: UrLukur on May 13, 2011, 02:09:43 pm
Loom your plate of choice 3 times, loom your gauntlet of choice 3 times. Enjoy your 75-86 body armor.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Paul on May 13, 2011, 02:15:08 pm
100p final tier arbalest+steel bolt against a 60 body armor(vest+gauntlets) target, body hit at POINT BLANK, stationary target:

minimum damage: 34
average damage: 49
maximum damage: 68

hp of a 18 str, 4 IF guy: 61

Due increased air friction compared to Native these damages are lowered significantly at distance, especially against high armor.


Seems ok.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Dravic on May 13, 2011, 02:17:55 pm
100p final tier arbalest+steel bolt against a 60 body armor(vest+gauntlets) target, body hit at POINT BLANK, stationary target:

minimum damage: 34
average damage: 49
maximum damage: 68

hp of a level 30, 18 str, 4 IF guy: 61

Due increased air friction compared to Native these damages are lowered significantly at distance, especially against high armor.


Seems ok.

Thank you Paul, you've just rescued cRPG from losing all dedicated crossbowmen AND showed why we are NOT 1hitting people. I'd add speed bonus of character you aim at to your calculations and the max dmg will be less than 60 if character is backpeddaling.

Be proud!
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: bredeus on May 13, 2011, 02:21:32 pm
Agreed with the fact that heirlooming crossbows has more sense now than any other stuff.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Casimir on May 13, 2011, 02:55:52 pm
Add speed bonus of people moving towards you = 1 shot.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Darkkarma on May 13, 2011, 03:17:50 pm
xbows cost any skill points? Bows need like 7pd to deal crazy damg like your xbow
do you even need wpf to use it at all? bows need like 100wpf+ to even get ok aim... your xbow has better aim at 0wpf then my long bow at 126wpf....
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its is op because anyone can pick it up and 1 shot people... Great range weapon for no trade off...

Your valid points are totally overshadowed by your blatant exaggerations. NO xbow at 0 wpf has better accuracy than a bow at 126 , even with the bare minimum power draw for that bow, stop acting like it does. And to get anywhere near 1-shotting people consistently you need AT LEAST 100+ WPF in the sniper bow to pull that off. Even then it's not guaranteed. And you can totally forget about 1 shotting anything moving or stationary if it's raining(Which it is a good portion of the time) Even with the masterworked arbalest and bolts, in most cases, if I miss on a character, i'm usually only going to get one shot off. There are some valid points to be made against the new heirloomed stats of crossbows, but saying that they are an "automatic 1 shot kill" isn't one of those points. Also, masterworking a defensive item such as body armor or gloves will pretty much offset the masterwork damage you get from the offensive items, in this case, the masterworked arbalest.(This is even considering that  the battle conditions are ideal for the crossbow.)

Lets also keep in mind that in the best case scenario you'll have 13 shots if you're using the arbalest or the heavy. Unless you're just running around shotgunning people(which in itself is very risky), you're going to miss at least a few times.(I usually miss my first 2 or 3 shots.) Also, if said sniper/heavy user gets surprised or flanked, all they have to defend themselves now is a little one handed sword.I'll tell you right now that for most, that's not going to be enough. The bows that really benefit from this are the Lower end ones. The regular crossbow at masterwork level is better than the regular heavy in nearly every way, god forbid they have masterworked steel bolts.(potentially 26 of them if they still use a 1 hander.) The mid tier crossbow buff is what worries me a bit. Those are still VERY flavor of the month friendly.

Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 13, 2011, 03:18:21 pm
If you listen to yourselves calling for nerfs on the crossbow, you sound just like the other who call for nerf, with the exception of a few good arguments. The arbalest is indeed a good weapon. When masterworked the upkeep is nearly as much as a horse. Of course the damage means you can shoot stuff do a lot of damage. It is good for 1 shotting lightly armoured people coming towards you, or horses. But, when you reload you are vulnerable. And isn't the arbalest still less "accurate" than the other crossbows too?

Edit: in a one on one situation in the open, I would put money on level 31 dedicated archer beating a level 31 dedicated crossbowman of equal skill.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Darkkarma on May 13, 2011, 03:24:34 pm
If you listen to yourselves calling for nerfs on the crossbow, you sound just like the other who call for nerf, with the exception of a few good arguments. The arbalest is indeed a good weapon. When masterworked the upkeep is nearly as much as a horse. Of course the damage means you can shoot stuff do a lot of damage. It is good for 1 shotting lightly armoured people coming towards you, or horses. But, when you reload you are vulnerable. And isn't the arbalest still less "accurate" than the other crossbows too?

Edit: in a one on one situation in the open, I would put money on level 31 dedicated archer beating a level 31 dedicated crossbowman of equal skill.

Yes, the reticule is larger than the others at the same WPF. The bolt will go straighter and fly farther, but there is more wiggle room. It also calls for a steeper WPF requirement to close the reticule. For example, 70 WPF in a light crossbow may be enough, but it's nowhere near enough for the arbalest if you expect to be decent in any way.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 13, 2011, 03:27:24 pm
If anyone has played WFaS, using an arbalest with no wpf is comparable to using musket that reloads quicker, needs more trajectory adjustment, and does less damage (due to lower average armour in WFaS).
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 13, 2011, 03:33:14 pm
xbow is bullshit its amazing everything gets nerfed except that friggen no skiller weapon
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 13, 2011, 03:37:46 pm
xbow is bullshit its amazing everything gets nerfed except that friggen no skiller weapon
It takes a different skill. Slower than the bow, you can't afford to spam higher tier crossbows (you can spam the light and hunting with wpf but hey who uses those?  :wink:). Also, I doubt you've been playing as a crossbowman recently Tzar. Hitboxes seem to be quite different and this hasn't favoured ranged combat at all. I don't think the crossbow heirlooms should have been buffed. But I definitely don't think they should be nerfed. They do need dedication, or good risk assessment with no wpf.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Paul on May 13, 2011, 03:50:01 pm
Add speed bonus of people moving towards you = 1 shot.

Actually the damage bonus from target movement speed is rather low compared to weapons with lower projectile speed. Reason for that is that the bonus is calculated based on which percentage the movement speed has compared with the shot speed. For a high shot speed weapon like a sniper crossbow the possible movement speeds are small and thus the bonus damage is small too. Throwing weapons profits the most if the target is running into the shot because of their low projectile velocities.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Gurnisson on May 13, 2011, 04:28:32 pm
xbow is bullshit its amazing everything gets nerfed except that friggen no skiller weapon

... you've ever been a dedicated crossbowman? I doubt it.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 13, 2011, 06:38:17 pm
Its clear to me that u guys never played dedicated xbowman. It is not that easy, for first u need great awareness of the surroundings, a lot of planing before u do anything and wise choice of cover. Yeah 100 dmg is huge, in fact it is in most cases one shot wepon BUT 6 heirlooms is not that easy to have AND for this 1 shot ability u get sloooooooow reload, dunno what u think but in 5 minutes round u fire like 10 bolts which is not only boring but not THAT effective inlcuding the miss chance. On the long distances u will always lose with archers what ususally forces u to go shotguning where u lose to throwers, and shotguning is only a oneshoot thing unless u want to go for cover after every shoot. Xbowing is not easy, Xbowing is not OP and sometimes is ass boring.

However the light xbow should take 2 slots.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 06:44:08 pm
i played.... its how to say that..... 1 hit all around
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: MadJackMcMad on May 13, 2011, 06:46:22 pm
i played.... its how to say that..... 1 hit all around

I smell shite.

The other day I point blank hit someone in the upper chest who was wearing a Leather Jacket.  15 armour vs 89p.  He lived.

The simplest solution to this is to remove the slot restrictions and instead restrict crossbow usage based on proficiency.  For example, to pick up and use an arbalest, you would require at minimum 140.  There goes your dreaded hybrids and your dedicated crossbowmen can be historically accurate crossbowmen again.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 07:02:13 pm
no i know the true.....

xbow(arbalest) is ultimate sniper weapon

i am able to hit archer from 100 meters and kill him.

YES IA FUCKIN XBOWMAN and i have to say the the nerf all around.... and bufed xbows again
i like to play as a xbowman that should be powerfull but....
i have cav char and shielder and HA and thrower.

i and see then something is wrong...

I want balance for xbows!
skills higer req ect.

BALANCE


Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: MadJackMcMad on May 13, 2011, 07:05:10 pm
i am able to hit archer from 100 meters and kill him.

So can I, although, he will have to be on 5% health, and the bolt will only have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting him (based on the reticle of 161 prof).  You seem to be equipped with some sort of mythic crossbow that embodies all the exaggerated assumptions of it's effectiveness.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 07:06:56 pm
So can I, although, he will have to be on 5% health.  You seem to be equipped with some sort of mythic crossbow that embodies all the exaggerated assumptions of it's effectiveness.

yes mw one

and yes 5 gen char and yes
balanc for xbows

Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: MadJackMcMad on May 13, 2011, 07:12:07 pm
You are suffering from a grand case of selective cognition.  You do not kill everyone in one shot.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 13, 2011, 07:13:55 pm
Quote
am able to hit archer from 100 meters and kill him.


If u have shit load of time and hes not moving u forgot to add...... The truth is that even tho xbow is very accurate u cant 'chase' the trajectory of ur bolt so u cant bring in any corections into ur aiming.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Phew on May 13, 2011, 07:25:11 pm
A non-heirloomed Arbalest with non-heirloomed steel bolts does an average of 48 damage to someone with 38 armor (i.e. lamellar vest+leather gloves, typical archer loadout). Use 6 heirlooms on the Arbalest+bolts, and that goes up to 58 dmg. A typical 8 PD archer build has 59 Hit Points at lvl 30, not even including Ironflesh.

6 heirlooms, and you still have less than a 50% chance to 1-shot an ARCHER with the slowest weapon in the game.

Crossbows are fine.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 07:31:57 pm
i see xbowmen voice here now....

i am off

You all still don't understand... read my posts again and repost.

BALANC i want that for xbows!!!!!!!!

and nOO they are not balanced.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Keshian on May 13, 2011, 07:34:45 pm
A non-heirloomed Arbalest with non-heirloomed steel bolts does an average of 48 damage to someone with 38 armor (i.e. lamellar vest+leather gloves, typical archer loadout). Use 6 heirlooms on the Arbalest+bolts, and that goes up to 58 dmg. A typical 8 PD archer build has 59 Hit Points at lvl 30, not even including Ironflesh.

6 heirlooms, and you still have less than a 50% chance to 1-shot an ARCHER with the slowest weapon in the game.

Crossbows are fine.

A typical archer has 5-6 powerdraw (most common not the average) and most commonly use 4.5 weight armor not the 9.5 weight armor you describe, so yes should be 1-shotted 50% of the time or more.

Crossbows are fine though don't know why anyone wouldn't just triple heirloom normal xbow instead of sniper now.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 13, 2011, 07:49:47 pm
Light is the way to go now, fast and usable on horseback. Also pretty accurate. Just not as good at long range (lacks that speed and trajectory that made the MW Sniper soooo nice).
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Siiem on May 13, 2011, 07:55:14 pm
Agreed with the fact that heirlooming crossbows has more sense now than any other stuff.

Crossbows don't have any PD or PS bonus, therefore they need a bigger base damage buff.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Phew on May 13, 2011, 08:05:29 pm
A typical archer has 5-6 powerdraw (most common not the average) and most commonly use 4.5 weight armor not the 9.5 weight armor you describe, so yes should be 1-shotted 50% of the time or more.

Crossbows are fine though don't know why anyone wouldn't just triple heirloom normal xbow instead of sniper now.

OK, I never played an archer so I was guessing on the PD. At least on NA siege, black lamellar vest is the predominant archer gear, followed by light strange. You're right on the regular x-bow though; kills most people in 2 shots (just like the arbalest), while being cheaper, faster, and using only 1 slot.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: EponiCo on May 13, 2011, 08:31:48 pm
I smell shite.

The other day I point blank hit someone in the upper chest who was wearing a Leather Jacket.  15 armour vs 89p.  He lived.

The simplest solution to this is to remove the slot restrictions and instead restrict crossbow usage based on proficiency.  For example, to pick up and use an arbalest, you would require at minimum 140.  There goes your dreaded hybrids and your dedicated crossbowmen can be historically accurate crossbowmen again.

Arbalest needs 15 str, Longbow needs 18 str and 6 PD, yet with these stats longbow damage is lower, reload is only a wee bit faster (I might be off on that, correct me if I'm wrong). How does that go with historical accuracy where trained longbowmen were able to shoot 5 arrows where trained crossbowmen fired only one? Why are all other bows cut and all crossbows pierce?
And, yeah, no matter how awesome he looks a pavise crossbowman is dreadful to play against because even if he has 1 wpf in 1h, he can just turtle up with 8 shield skill until someone else shoots you (and then swing his steelpick just as you have to turn around and deal with that other crossbowman). Heck, I'd take sniper crossbow all wpf in 2h over that any day. I think having them take weaker crossbows is a fair trade off.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Native_ATS on May 13, 2011, 08:46:07 pm
Crossbows don't have any PD or PS bonus, therefore they need a bigger base damage buff.
ya buff the weapon that cost no skill points or wpf to use.... that seems fair  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Siiem on May 13, 2011, 09:40:10 pm
ya buff the weapon that cost no skill points or wpf to use.... that seems fair  :rolleyes:

From heirlooming you idiot.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 13, 2011, 11:12:28 pm
i see xbowmen voice here now....

i am off

You all still don't understand... read my posts again and repost.

BALANC i want that for xbows!!!!!!!!

and nOO they are not balanced.

lol so what did u expect??? to make a cry post to nerf xbows and u expected xbowers to stay away form commenting on it, and now u are upset cose they dare to comment ur opinion and surely as an xbowers they can not tell anything about it??(sarcasm)
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 13, 2011, 11:31:16 pm
but in your opinion xbow always need buff...
dude look at weak throwers with max 8 axe in bag...
 

Only 15 str req... so yo can have 24 agi and 8 wm .... (aroun 180wpf)

it make xbow fast....
and holy shit i want balance it

1) more str req 18 (in my opinion)
2) skill for xbow with 2 slots (xbow is weapon of pesants but that best should have some better req)
and some thing els what can make you better faster ect(with xbow)

and less damange(100p is from tincan age)
in my opinion 95-90 on mw(arbalest)
bolts buff is fine.

and spee of reload should be based on str Xbow skill and req from xbow


and give back my 1 troll point XD
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Darkkarma on May 14, 2011, 12:09:28 am
but in your opinion xbow always need buff...
dude look at weak throwers with max 8 axe in bag...
 

Only 15 str req... so yo can have 24 agi and 8 wm .... (aroun 180wpf)

it make xbow fast....
and holy shit i want balance it

1) more str req 18 (in my opinion)
2) skill for xbow with 2 slots (xbow is weapon of pesants but that best should have some better req)
and some thing els what can make you better faster ect(with xbow)

and less damange(100p is from tincan age)
in my opinion 95-90 on mw(arbalest)
bolts buff is fine.

and spee of reload should be based on str Xbow skill and req from xbow


and give back my 1 troll point XD

Take away the fact that rain makes it lose about 15% of it's effectiveness and i'd agree.

Also, throwing is still very much viable. However, it definitely is a shell of it's former self, but only because throwing was so ridiculously good before that last patch.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Banok on May 14, 2011, 12:11:49 am
the + accuracy means NOTHING. all xbows are virtually same accuracy even at different modifiers. when will people learn this :/

but yeah I agree, they are op. s'why I hierloomed a arberlest. but I dont really enjoy playing it that much so I'm all for it being nerfed.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Siiem on May 14, 2011, 02:13:59 am
the + accuracy means NOTHING. all xbows are virtually same accuracy even at different modifiers. when will people learn this :/

but yeah I agree, they are op. s'why I hierloomed a arberlest. but I dont really enjoy playing it that much so I'm all for it being nerfed.

Lol, you are all for the arbalest beeing nerfed but pre-patch you heirloomd your barmace so it reliably crushed through blocks.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Shablagoo on May 14, 2011, 09:51:26 am
Arbalest needs 15 str, Longbow needs 18 str and 6 PD, yet with these stats longbow damage is lower, reload is only a wee bit faster (I might be off on that, correct me if I'm wrong).

It takes forever to reload.  I imagine you can get off like 6 or 7 shots with a bow before getting a second with the arbalest.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Native_ATS on May 14, 2011, 11:49:54 am
Take away the fact that rain makes it lose about 15% of it's effectiveness and i'd agree.

Also, throwing is still very much viable. However, it definitely is a shell of it's former self, but only because throwing was so ridiculously good before that last patch.
no... just no
go shot your self for telling me that throwing is still viable....
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Darkkarma on May 14, 2011, 12:10:08 pm
no... just no
go shot your self for telling me that throwing is still viable....

Oh woe is me, I can't one shot anyone anymore if I want to have a large stack of throwable items! Oh but wait, the mid tier throwables still do a good amount of damage, can be thrown on the move, can be stacked in good numbers and still have the best rate of fire of any ranged weapon! Sorry they aren't a total skill compensator anymore man, but they are in a good place right now. I know you don't agree, but you're also the one that thought crossbows were actually easier to use and where better off then throwing before the 2 slot patch.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 14, 2011, 12:13:21 pm
Xbows are the least effective ranged weapon right now.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Cup1d on May 14, 2011, 01:05:53 pm
I've got foot crossbower char for once. Standart build 15\24, 160 in xbow 85 in 2H. Nonheirloomed Sniper and Steel bolts. IMHO this build was too good to be balanced. Yes, I was an archer for 20 gens, so I know how to shoot people. But with 3,5-1 overall k\d with this char, all I can say - xbow bonuses from heirloom is too good to be true.

And you can be effective without:
+13 to damage,
+1 ammo,
+ 3 to accuracy
+ 3 to weapon speed
+ 4 to projectile speed


comparison with bow
+ 5 to damage
+ 2 ammo
+ 2 to accuracy
+ 2 to weapon speed
+ 3 to projectile speed


And there no sense to comparison this with throwing, because in case of throwing you have only projectile, there no weapon+projectile system. But well:

Throwing
+ 4 to damage
+ 0 ammo
+ 0 to accuracy
+ 1 to weapon speed
+ 0 to projectile speed




Also, there is no requirement for heirlooming xbows. At 31 level 95% of players have 15 str. You can be cavalry\infantry\thrower\professional peasant - but you can heirloom top-tier xbow.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: MadJackMcMad on May 14, 2011, 01:40:53 pm
I've got foot crossbower char for once. Standart build 15\24, 160 in xbow 85 in 2H. Nonheirloomed Sniper and Steel bolts. IMHO this build was too good to be balanced. Yes, I was an archer for 20 gens, so I know how to shoot people. But with 3,5-1 overall k\d with this char, all I can say - xbow bonuses from heirloom is too good to be true.

I have this build also, and it is incredibly situational.  k/d's are a poor indicator for class balance.  I have had a high k/d for every class I have played simply because I work out how to get the most out of them.  The 85/160 crossbowman with an Arbalest's performance depends greatly on the map and game mode in question (defending on siege being the best).  For maximum efficiency you must aim at targets unaware of you, for you are unlikely to hit a target that is aware and will dodge.  You must essentially be a sniper, shoot, skirmish, hide.  And what are snipers good for except good k/ds?  %80 of my Crossbow kills are unaware of my presence or location. 

For example one melee with a shield is aware of you and enclosing at 10m.  To his right, there is another melee running the other direction at a ninety degree angle.  Commonly I will shoot the ninety degree enemy, most likely not killing him unless he has been hit before or is wearing a shirt, then focus on the one targeting me.  Then, I will either fall back to friendlies if available, or attempt to kill him in melee.
  This situation most commonly arises in battle, which is generally harder for this class, particularly on plains.  Your long reload makes you succeptible to cavalry, other ranged, and most annoyingly cavalry archers.  With the latter, if you miss or do not kill with your first shot, unless you have support you are stuffed.  Most commonly in battle I find my Millitary Pick picking up more kills than my crossbow because I can't get off enough shots before the battle is joined and people generally underestimate a crossbowman's ability in melee.

Frankly, I do not think crossbows are overpowered.  They were fine in the previous patch before this two slot nonsense, take away two slots and remove the damage bonus.  It's archery that is feeble.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Paul on May 14, 2011, 01:45:03 pm
EXAMPLE TIEM

Level 30 crossbowman with arbalest+steel bolts.
price: 18796+2263=21059

Mundane:
base damage: 79p + 8p = 87p
final damage: 87p (get no bonus from wpf or skill)

Triple heirloomed:
base damage: 87p + 13p = 100p
final damage: 87p (get no bonus from wpf or skill)

damage difference: 100p-87p=13p
percentage increase: 100p/87p * 100% - 100% = 15%

Level 30 archer with 18 str, 6 PS and 150 wpf using a longbow + bodkin arrows
price: 9974+5058=15032

Mundane:
base damage: 26p + 6p = 32p
final damage: 67p (bonus from wpf, PD and str)

Triple heirloomed:
base damage: 29p + 8p = 37p
final damage: 77p (bonus from wpf, PD and str)

damage difference: 77p-67p=10p
percentage increase: 77p/67p * 100% - 100% = 15%









Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Cup1d on May 14, 2011, 03:59:45 pm
You must be lawyer?

Ok, let's work with your proofs.


EXAMPLE TIEM
Level 15 horsecrossbowman with light crossbow+steel bolts.
price: 6560+2263=8823

Mundane:
base damage: 46p + 8p = 54p
final damage: 54p (get no bonus from wpf or skill)

Triple heirloomed:
base damage: 54p + 13p = 67p
final damage: 67p (get no bonus from wpf or skill)

damage difference: 67p-54p=13p
percentage increase: 67p/54p * 100% - 100% = 24.07%

Versus
Level 30 horse archer with 15 str, 5 PD and 160 wpf using a strongbow + bodkin arrows
price: 7896+5058=12954

Mundane:
base damage: 25c + 6c = 31c
final damage: 60c (bonus from wpf, PD and str)

Triple heirloomed:
base damage: 28c + 8c = 36c
final damage: 70c (bonus from wpf, PD and str)

damage difference: 70c-60c=10c
percentage increase: 70c/60c * 100% - 100% = 16%

Also, we both know that + 13 piercing damage is much better than +10 cut damage.
Also, with 140-160 wpf in xbow, your reticule is way smaller than archer reticule with 5PD and same wpf.
Also, in this case we must comparison 30 level archer and any (above 4) level peasant with light xbow. xbow have maximum damage at start.
Also, your line of defence ignore another bonuses:


EXAMPLE TIEM
arbalest

Mundane:
base weapon speed: 18
base projectile speed: 60
base accuracy: 96


Triple heirloomed:
final weapon speed: 21
final projectile speed: 64
final accuracy: 99


weapon speed difference: 21-18=3
percentage increase: 21/18 * 100% - 100% = 16%

projectile speed difference: 64-60=4
percentage increase: 64/60 * 100% - 100% = 6%

accuracy difference: 99-96=3
percentage increase: 99/96 * 100% - 100% = 3.125%

versus

longbow

Mundane:
base weapon speed: 50
base projectile speed: 55
base accuracy: 95

Triple heirloomed:
final weapon speed: 52
final projectile speed: 58
final accuracy: 97

weapon speed difference: 52-50=2
percentage increase: 52/50 * 100% - 100% = 4%

projectile speed difference: 58-55=3
percentage increase: 58/55 * 100% - 100% = 5,4%

accuracy difference: 97-95=2
percentage increase: 97/95 * 100% - 100% = 2,105%

What now?
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rebelyell on May 14, 2011, 04:14:45 pm
serwer 4

20 players left...
6 of them users of arbalest....
why?
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 14, 2011, 08:48:11 pm
just keep gettin 1 shot by heirloomed sniper gays its fuckin disgusting why the feck wont they nerf that loom like they did with every1 else fuckin braindead....
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 14, 2011, 09:18:42 pm
just keep gettin 1 shot by heirloomed sniper gays its fuckin disgusting why the feck wont they nerf that loom like they did with every1 else fuckin braindead....

Cose it needs some advantages..... do u know how slow this thing is???? and besides not everyone have 6 heirloms to spend into xbow.

 I dont get u ppl, so what do u want?? xbow to deal healf HP dmg to light/medium poeple??? with its reload time?? in this case u can delete it at all.
To me it seems simple, sloow=high dmg, fast=lower dmg......

and the accuracy advantage is not that great cose as I said before u can not track the trajectory of ur bolt to make corrections to ur next shoot cose before u reload ur target will 95% move from its previous position.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 15, 2011, 01:17:17 am
Cose it needs some advantages..... do u know how slow this thing is???? and besides not everyone have 6 heirloms to spend into xbow.

 I dont get u ppl, so what do u want?? xbow to deal healf HP dmg to light/medium poeple??? with its reload time?? in this case u can delete it at all.
To me it seems simple, sloow=high dmg, fast=lower dmg......

and the accuracy advantage is not that great cose as I said before u can not track the trajectory of ur bolt to make corrections to ur next shoot cose before u reload ur target will 95% move from its previous position.

FU its fast enough plus u only need 1 correct hit and the user u point and click on is history

Its utter bullshit saying it should be able to 1 hit people there is no way in hell u can justify it by any means..
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Gurnisson on May 15, 2011, 01:29:00 am
FU its fast enough plus u only need 1 correct hit and the user u point and click on is history

Its utter bullshit saying it should be able to 1 hit people there is no way in hell u can justify it by any means..

Judging from your earlier posts, I wouldn't trust your opinions at all.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Darkkarma on May 15, 2011, 01:30:42 am
Judging from your earlier posts, I wouldn't trust your opinions at all.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 15, 2011, 01:38:44 am
Judging from your earlier posts, I wouldn't trust your opinions at all.

No1 likes it when their shit gets nerfed so offcourse my earlier posts are useless in your ears...

Plz tell me how its fair everyone else gets their looms nerfed and the xbow gets to keep their god stats when loomed?? do tell
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Gurnisson on May 15, 2011, 02:00:38 am
No1 likes it when their shit gets nerfed so offcourse my earlier posts are useless in your ears...

Plz tell me how its fair everyone else gets their looms nerfed and the xbow gets to keep their god stats when loomed?? do tell

Crossbows don't have any PD or PS bonus, therefore they need a bigger base damage buff.

Also, please do read Paul's posts as well.


I've played every class in-game now, and if you think crossbows are op you haven't got an overview at all. Fair enough, crossbows have a lot of damage, but they're slow as hell.

Now to the point of the thread. Because the crossbows doesn't get any extra damage for skills or attributes, heirlooming the weapon gives extra bonuses. This puts dedicated crossbowers at a decent level as well as keeping the ones with a crossbow sidearm less effective, since they probably won't heirloom a sidearm to masterwork. What did you hate you say? Shotgunners and sidearm whores? Well, there you go! The crossbow has a lower base damage and a higher heirloom bonus to lessen the effectivity of sidearmers. Happy now?
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 15, 2011, 02:01:11 am
Quote
Plz tell me how its fair everyone else gets their looms nerfed and the xbow gets to keep their god stats when loomed?? do tell


Cose xbow is a natural weapon for hybrid builds, in fact even in real life xbowers were as good in meele as in xbowing. As a main weapon to be dedicated to its preety dificult and not as efefctive as other ranged stuff. Taking away the possibility of being hybrid's weapon what was its main purpose(slot system) it is left alone as not as good ranged device therefore it needs to deal high DMG to have at least this one advantage over bows and throwing.

thats how I see it
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 15, 2011, 02:36:28 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/sounfair.jpg/)
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 15, 2011, 02:57:49 am
Your arguments are total fail..

1st. this aint a medieval war simulator ninja´s and samurai's and men in dresses killed that image a long time ago...

2nd. While xbow dont gain extra dmg from wpf the fact that it deals massive peirce dmg more than makes up for it...

3rd. it requires 0 wpf to be usefull i have played with the sniper xbow for ages so dont try and say that it does we all know its just a side arm for kdr whores....

4rd. You all know the massive gain of stats it gets its just pure overkill and should have been nerfed with the rest of the line of heirlooms...

Anyways not gonna borther arguing with lobbyists wanting to keep their awp...
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 15, 2011, 03:37:56 am
Quote
Your arguments are total fail..

good way to make ur arguments a less fail. And reasoning on very high level btw.
(click to show/hide)

Quote
1st. this aint a medieval war simulator ninja´s and samurai's and men in dresses killed that image a long time ago...

and cose of that xbows must be nerfed to the ground so noone use them anymore? hows that argument for xbow nerf?

Quote
2nd. While xbow dont gain extra dmg from wpf the fact that it deals massive peirce dmg more than makes up for it...

IT-IS-SLOOOOW therefore it needs that dmg..........

Quote
You all know the massive gain of stats it gets its just pure overkill and should have been nerfed with the rest of the line of heirlooms...

+6 heirloom is not that common +
(click to show/hide)

Quote
Anyways not gonna borther arguing with lobbyists wanting to keep their awp...

I am a shielder and even dont have an xbow. However I played an dedicated xbowmen almost from the beggining and I know the struggle so I am defending xbows from being nerfed even further.

So am I free to keep my fail arguments or  am I still a lobbyist?
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: MadJackMcMad on May 15, 2011, 11:38:33 am
Your arguments are total fail..

1st. this aint a medieval war simulator ninja´s and samurai's and men in dresses killed that image a long time ago...

2nd. While xbow dont gain extra dmg from wpf the fact that it deals massive peirce dmg more than makes up for it...

3rd. it requires 0 wpf to be usefull i have played with the sniper xbow for ages so dont try and say that it does we all know its just a side arm for kdr whores....

4rd. You all know the massive gain of stats it gets its just pure overkill and should have been nerfed with the rest of the line of heirlooms...

Anyways not gonna borther arguing with lobbyists wanting to keep their awp...

Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 15, 2011, 12:01:22 pm
and cose of that xbows must be nerfed to the ground so noone use them anymore? hows that argument for xbow nerf?

So your argument is that if you cant 1 shot people with the heirloomed awp sniper xbow they wont use it anymore??  :lol:

And thus it shouldnt get a heirloom nerf like every other item in the game??

Sound alot like the throwing lance whine crowd..  :arrow:

Anyways like i said yesterday im not gonna borther fighten with people who´s sense of balance is utter fuckin trash....


lmao....
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 15, 2011, 12:03:04 pm
Quote
Confirmation Bias

Read carefully and change ur life before its to late tzar. Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 15, 2011, 12:40:24 pm
So your argument is that if you cant 1 shot people with the heirloomed awp sniper xbow they wont use it anymore??  :lol:

And thus it shouldnt get a heirloom nerf like every other item in the game??

Sound alot like the throwing lance whine crowd..  :arrow:

Anyways like i said yesterday im not gonna borther fighten with people who´s sense of balance is utter fuckin trash....


lmao....

Buckle your seatbelts;

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Radix on May 15, 2011, 12:46:10 pm
Buckle your seatbelts;

(click to show/hide)

For tzar ur arguments are still fail cose they are not his arguments :)
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Darkkarma on May 15, 2011, 12:57:09 pm
Buckle your seatbelts;

(click to show/hide)

I think you're casting pearls before swines at this point.  :(
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Gurnisson on May 15, 2011, 01:05:27 pm
Your arguments are total fail..

My arguments are fair. I knew that if I got an answer like this, explaining it to you would be a waste of time, because you can't look at it from other's point of view.

Quote
3rd. it requires 0 wpf to be usefull i have played with the sniper xbow for ages so dont try and say that it does we all know its just a side arm for kdr whores....

3 Fucking slots with a reloadtime of half the round with 0 wpf. Sniper Xbow was a sidearm for many before the patches, it's not that anymore! You get killed by dedicated xbowers, and shouldn't they be able to kill you like any other class? No, according to yourself the crossbow should have a lot lower damage, as well as being ridiculously slow. I don't whine when I get one-hitted by GLA or GLB in medium armor. Why? I know it's not completely easymode, and being a crossbower is definitely not easymode.

Also, you want more speed and less damage on crossbows? Try native, and don't even dare say that it's more balanced. Crossbows are op on native, they're not on crpg.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Damug on May 15, 2011, 06:08:18 pm
My arguments are fair. I knew that if I got an answer like this, explaining it to you would be a waste of time, because you can't look at it from other's point of view.

3 Fucking slots with a reloadtime of half the round with 0 wpf. Sniper Xbow was a sidearm for many before the patches, it's not that anymore! You get killed by dedicated xbowers, and shouldn't they be able to kill you like any other class? No, according to yourself the crossbow should have a lot lower damage, as well as being ridiculously slow. I don't whine when I get one-hitted by GLA or GLB in medium armor. Why? I know it's not completely easymode, and being a crossbower is definitely not easymode.

Also, you want more speed and less damage on crossbows? Try native, and don't even dare say that it's more balanced. Crossbows are op on native, they're not on crpg.
One solution to all these 'omg xbow heirlooms' complaints would be to throw love to base crossbows and nerf the hell out of the heirlooms too, right?  That way people wouldn't see such vast improvements over the triple heirloomed item and the base crossbow and thus probably won't come crying to the forums about it after their favorite weapon's heirlooms were just neutered.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Gurnisson on May 15, 2011, 10:24:26 pm
One solution to all these 'omg xbow heirlooms' complaints would be to throw love to base crossbows and nerf the hell out of the heirlooms too, right?  That way people wouldn't see such vast improvements over the triple heirloomed item and the base crossbow and thus probably won't come crying to the forums about it after their favorite weapon's heirlooms were just neutered.

And then we're back to the 'omg sidearmers, lol high damagepierce!1! NERF!1!'.

I see your point, but with all these whiners, it's just a vicious cycle you can't get out of.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 16, 2011, 03:26:25 am
The dedicated crossbowman is a viable build finally which is wonderful, they are well balanced against other forms of ranged. The only real issue is players who take one as a sidearm with little or no investment and shotgun with it.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Jacko on May 16, 2011, 08:19:16 am
The dedicated crossbowman is a viable build finally which is wonderful, they are well balanced against other forms of ranged. The only real issue is players who take one as a sidearm with little or no investment and shotgun with it.

This. Xbows are in a good place. You might tweak the looming, but lacking scaling you can hardly call em OP.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Gnjus on May 17, 2011, 08:15:51 am
I agree everything got nerfed except crossbows its really smell like the dev use this sidearm

Yes, there is this smelly dedicated dev(iant) crossbowman, cca 170 wpf in crossbows, 3x loomed Arbalest:

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php?action=profile;u=8, on our thread poll he got 15 votes, i could name every single one of them, starting from Ronald Meliosandro, Dave, Gurnisson, Jacko and 11 more crossbowmen who's names i won't even mention here.  :wink:

(click to show/hide)

:twisted:


Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: DonNicko on May 25, 2011, 01:54:36 pm
I have played on DTV with heirloomed arbalest. And in the first wave there were peasants. Some peasants I kill with one shot, but some :shock: by two. wpf is 140. And if peasant stay far from me always by two shots. and this is 100 pierce. The air reduction does its work. Really I disappointed with that. So in theory I should kill them by one shot, but in practice it takes 2 shots, and I cant 1 shot the archers as I did before this patch. Maybe something will change
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 25, 2011, 01:57:19 pm
There something called minimum average and maximum dmg dipshits.....

So yeah sometimes you maybe wont 1hit evrything
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: DonNicko on May 25, 2011, 02:03:24 pm
But peasants, that wear I can say nothing, I should kill with 1 shot I think. About 80 % of shots doesnt kill. Peasants I kill about 70 % by 1 shot.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Siiem on May 25, 2011, 02:39:12 pm
But peasants, that wear I can say nothing, I should kill with 1 shot I think. About 80 % of shots doesnt kill. Peasants I kill about 70 % by 1 shot.

Actually you're better spent using your valuable steel bolt on someone armoured then trying to shoot a peasent... bring a cheaper crossbow to DTV, then you can have a better melee weapon aswell.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Cepeshi on May 25, 2011, 04:18:44 pm
how come Tzar is complaining about xbows when mostly i see him running around with the CT hammer :D cmon, man up, dodge the xbowers and ur fine...

to speak more about the issue, my friend rolled dedicated xbowman, loomed the arbalest three times, bolts unloomed, and it rarely happens he oneshot kills someone, unless he is like 10metres away :) (or headshot), for spending huge amount of time (3gens) in order to get weapon, which is slow as hell, to comparable lvl with bows (which, as mentioned before, get bonuses from stats) i would say its fine how it is now

PS: one of the bows is pierce aswell, so ur argument OMG XBOW PIERCE NURF is obsolete
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 25, 2011, 08:33:42 pm
have about 85 hp and 78 body armor 1 loomed xbow took me down to 10 hp with 1 bolt... balanced my ass
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 26, 2011, 12:28:19 am
have about 85 hp and 78 body armor 1 loomed xbow took me down to 10 hp with 1 bolt... balanced my ass
Headshot? Shot in the foot?
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tzar on May 26, 2011, 12:40:57 am
body

Headshot??? are we playing the same game??  pretty sure no1 can survive that..
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Darkkarma on May 26, 2011, 02:20:55 am
body

Headshot??? are we playing the same game??  pretty sure no1 can survive that..

You're crazy/working with a terrible build/gear if you get 1 shot by any bow regardless of masterwork level.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Cepeshi on May 27, 2011, 04:36:16 pm
With the pierce bow i get half hp down whilst hit in my triple loomed plate and gloves that got totally like 70body armor, but, on the contrary to the xbow, the bow can shoot me three times in the time it takes the xbower to reload, so yeah, its fine.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Phew on May 27, 2011, 07:31:33 pm
have about 85 hp and 78 body armor 1 loomed xbow took me down to 10 hp with 1 bolt... balanced my ass

A Masterwork Arbalest with MW Steel bolts at pointe blank range does an average of 34.5 damage to 78 armor, with a maximum damage of 48.

Even a head shot has zero chance of one-shotting you unless you are wearing below a Spiked Cap (32 armor). Again, that's from a 6-times heirloomed weapon at pointe-blank range.

Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Dravic on May 27, 2011, 10:27:02 pm
Phew, there was a post by Paul where he says that headshot from ranged is... 200% or 210% dmg


And there are different bones and places on human's body with different dmg possitive or negative bonus, so...

;)
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Jacko on May 27, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
Yeah, not sure about the rest but head shot, as far as I have experienced, always kills with a mw arbalest and bolts.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on June 02, 2011, 03:54:39 am
(click to show/hide)

lol xbow is better cuz it's a fukken xbow, have you ever tried to use a real xbow? noob archers..
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Rumblood on June 02, 2011, 05:23:21 am
With the pierce bow i get half hp down whilst hit in my triple loomed plate and gloves that got totally like 70body armor, but, on the contrary to the xbow, the bow can shoot me three times in the time it takes the xbower to reload, so yeah, its fine.

Blatant lie. Long bow takes 2 weeks to draw and THAT's the bow with pierce.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Bulzur on June 06, 2011, 01:13:49 pm
Back to the main post :

I clearly understand why xbow's heirlooms give so much damage (no benefit from anywhere else), and i agree with it.
BUT, cause there is a but, i don't understand why their other stats got so much benefits.

Let's compare it with the heirloomed bow (wich are REALLY interesting also) : (all stats BUT damage will be compared)

Heavy Crossbow (Masterwork)
Accuracy : 94 (97)           => +3  (+3,2%)
Speed rating : 23 (26)    => +3  (+13%)
Missile speed : 56 (60)   => +4   (+7,1%)

Strong bow (Masterwork)
Accuracy : 97 (99)           => +2  (+2,06%)
Speed rating : 63 (65)    => +2  (+3,17%)
Missile speed : 51 (54)   => +3  (+5,9%)

So... hum... basically, normal crossbows are balanced because they take lots of time to reload, compared to bows. But thoses heirloomed crossbows are 13% faster. o_O
Also, it's always possible to dodge arrows even at close distance, whereas it's close to impossible for crossbows. So why give heirloom crossbows so much better missile speed, speed rating and accuracy ?

I understand for damage, because wpf doesn't give any profits from it, but what about accuracy and reload time ? And may i remind people, that for bows, the more PD you have the less accuracy gained from wpf you have.

I really feel like masterwork xbows got the stats of a 4 times heirloomed (except for damage, wich is... fine.)

PS: I don't have longbow nor Arbalest, and didn't want to buy them just for a post who will be seen by may 40 people, 30 of them actually caring about balance, and 1 of them (hopefully) having a vote in it. So i don't know for other bow/xbows.

Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Paul on June 06, 2011, 02:50:27 pm
Missile speed is increased with powerdraw and it is a relative increase depended on the base projectile speed the bow provides.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Bulzur on June 06, 2011, 03:07:20 pm
Missile speed is increased with powerdraw and it is a relative increase depended on the base projectile speed the bow provides.

I didn't know missile speed was increase by power draw ! :shock:
Thanks for this information.

But it's not that big of an increase, since even with 6 PD and a mw strongbow, i "feel" like my arrows are less faster than a bolt shot from an xbow. It must be just a feeling though, i'll pay more attention to it ingame.

So we can say this missile speed "bonus" from PD, negates the "malus" for effective wpf from the same PD.
Wich still puts heirloomed xbow with greater accuracy and speed rating, wich are one of the (if not "THE") two most important things for a ranged weapon.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Gurnisson on June 06, 2011, 07:25:33 pm
Wich still puts heirloomed xbow with greater accuracy and speed rating, wich are one of the (if not "THE") two most important things for a ranged weapon.

Situational. Crossbows rock in sieges and some urban maps, while the higher rate of fire and maneuverability of the bowmen kicks arse in other types of maps (open fields, some urban etc.)

Also, bolts speed seems to drop a lot from medium range, making it deal quite a bit less damage. Nekkid people surviving shots from fully loomed Arbalest & Steel Bolts and such. Crossbows are awful in rain as well.

Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 06, 2011, 07:28:10 pm
Situational. Crossbows rock in sieges and some urban maps, while the higher rate of fire and maneuverability of the bowmen kicks arse in other types of maps (open fields, some urban etc.)

Also, bolts speed seems to drop a lot from medium range, making it deal quite a bit less damage. Nekkid people surviving shots from fully loomed Arbalest & Steel Bolts and such. Crossbows are awful in rain as well.

What is it again? Studies suggested something like a 10% penalty for bows and 30% for crossbows or some such thing in the rain? Does anyone have a link to one of those posts that talks about it?

Is the Snow treated as Rain for effecting athletics/shooting etc, or is it just a "fluff" effect like darkness/shadows? EDIT: Snow is not the same, thank you Fasader!

body

Headshot??? are we playing the same game??  pretty sure no1 can survive that..


I have seen it. Masterwork Warbow and Strongbows using regular arrows as well as bodkins, shot Tydeus in the head several matches and me/rest of the death squad were astounded to see him still ticking. One of the matches we even shot him twice in the head, or saw him take bolts to the head as well. I think he is a 24/12 or 27/12 build or something like that...

Of course, this was at long range with damage drop-off, as well as him being a STR build with that fantastic lordly top-tier helm of his.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Bulzur on June 06, 2011, 11:10:59 pm
Situational. Crossbows rock in sieges and some urban maps, while the higher rate of fire and maneuverability of the bowmen kicks arse in other types of maps (open fields, some urban etc.)

Also, bolts speed seems to drop a lot from medium range, making it deal quite a bit less damage. Nekkid people surviving shots from fully loomed Arbalest & Steel Bolts and such. Crossbows are awful in rain as well.

It's not situational since i'm talking about the heirloom bonus.

I won't compare the "base" bow vs "base" xbow, since i know they have different uses, different strengths and weakness. But the heirloom stats of the xbow are, imo, overpowered. Especially the accuracy and speed rating.
A slight -1 speed rating of the current masterwork xbows would already be better, even if it doesn't change that much.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Damug on June 07, 2011, 12:22:30 am
But the heirloom stats of the xbow are, imo, overpowered. Especially the accuracy and speed rating.
A slight -1 speed rating of the current masterwork xbows would already be better, even if it doesn't change that much.
You can greatly increase the performance of bows with skills.  Wpf for crossbows only increases the accuracy and slightly increases the reload speed.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Bulzur on June 07, 2011, 11:21:20 am
You can greatly increase the performance of bows with skills.  Wpf for crossbows only increases the accuracy and slightly increases the reload speed.

Are you mocking me ?
You're actually saying not to nerf the xbows BECAUSE you don't need skills for them ?
And wpf don't "slightly" increase the reload speed. A MW Arbalest with 125 wpf is pretty fast to reload.

And i'd also like a confirmation that armor efficient weight doesn't lower effective xbow wpf. (Whereas of course, everyone knows it lowers drastically archery wpf)

Edit : It does change the accuracy (even if the noticeable is kind of fun. You can try an archer and put on a plate, to see what's a real noticeable difference of accuracy). And i don't know if weight lowers the reload time.

Also, waltf4 did awesome research, but i think they're pretty much outdated now, concerning xbows. But i may be wrong.
And if it's still accurate then you can surely see the BIG difference between the sniper and the Heavy xbow in time of speed. Heirloomed are supposed to a small buff, but moving a weapon in another category (only in terms of reload speed) while still having better accuracy, missile speed and damage is more than a small buff.

And damn, stop comparing bows to xbows, i'm talking about heirloom buffs here. When you have 13% faster reload speed just from heirloom, then i definitely think it's overpowered.
Title: Re: Crossbow heirlooming.
Post by: Damug on June 07, 2011, 02:55:26 pm
And wpf don't "slightly" increase the reload speed. A MW Arbalest with 125 wpf is pretty fast to reload.
(click to show/hide)
I would hardly consider 1 bolt every 6 seconds (using the reload time for regular heavy crossbow at 150 wpf to simulate a MW arbalest) 'pretty fast'.

Also, weight does effect crossbow accuracy, because when I don my full plate my reticle gets noticeably larger.