cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: TugBoat on September 25, 2013, 01:09:22 am

Title: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 25, 2013, 01:09:22 am
Hi.

If the devs will give map rotation control of NA_2 to an oligarchy consisting of active clan members who enjoy siege, I will donate however much the devs want to cRPG development.

HoC, HG, SKoT, KUTT, OATH (lead by Smithy, Bullet, Hawk and company), and MB are groups I see actively in Siege and would like for one member from each of those groups to be appointed to the council to decide the map rotation.

I think this move would increase activity in the server, increase the active membership of cRPG, and thusly grow this community.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jarold on September 25, 2013, 01:15:23 am
It is in control of the community, we can make new maps and Teeth and Fips can change maps in the rotation!!!!!
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Teeth on September 25, 2013, 10:58:38 am
If you get this council together and let them create a list of maps they do want and don't want, current scene management can implement that. I am not going to act much on the whims of one player against mine and Fips his judgement, but if a group of active NA 2 players wants to seriously look at the rotation, I'd fully support that and follow their decisions. 

Here is the current rotation with screenshots. Fips even screenshotted most of the maps that are in the module but not in rotation, usually with a reason. Everything listed here could be removed or added from the rotation with a restart. Which still requires bugging cmp or chadz for hours, but that might be doable.
http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/current-map-cycle-with-screenshots-(wip)/
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jacko on September 25, 2013, 05:52:07 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Molly on September 25, 2013, 05:54:06 pm
Gnjus is famous!
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 25, 2013, 06:17:31 pm
Just let siege die and come play on NA1 (only half serious)

Or remove battle and siege and implement strategus style battle mode and rotate between castle/city/village and open field maps.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on September 25, 2013, 07:33:53 pm
APPOINT FRUMPTY! (Who else will give a voice to the my old friendcher masses?)
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Armycook_of_KSantiago on September 25, 2013, 08:55:40 pm
U FORGOT ASTRALIS.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 25, 2013, 10:45:35 pm
If you get this council together and let them create a list of maps they do want and don't want, current scene management can implement that. I am not going to act much on the whims of one player against mine and Fips his judgement, but if a group of active NA 2 players wants to seriously look at the rotation, I'd fully support that and follow their decisions. 

Here is the current rotation with screenshots. Fips even screenshotted most of the maps that are in the module but not in rotation, usually with a reason. Everything listed here could be removed or added from the rotation with a restart. Which still requires bugging cmp or chadz for hours, but that might be doable.
http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/current-map-cycle-with-screenshots-(wip)/

Teeth, thank you. I will contact each of the clans listed above, plus Astralis and get a council of NA members active in siege together. I will organize a meeting, and we will work on a new list. Once this is done, I will contact you with a new list with each representative contacting you to confirm they agreed to the list to let you know it was not done on the whim of one person.

Thanks Teeth. Mind if I message you directly with further questions?
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Gmnotutoo on September 25, 2013, 10:51:15 pm
Do not remove Helms_Deep.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Scervo on September 26, 2013, 12:12:23 am
Helms Deep is a cool place but the c-rpg map is bad =P
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Sharpe on September 26, 2013, 12:15:30 am
Helms Deep is a cool place but the c-rpg map is bad =P

It is known, and I'm sorry Scervo I had to minus the post not because I hate you or disagree, but because no one should have 0 Infamy on this forum.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Scervo on September 26, 2013, 01:28:25 am
:c you sadden me
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Gmnotutoo on September 26, 2013, 01:32:24 am
Helms Deep is a cool place but the c-rpg map is bad =P

I disagree, it was broken because of the centuries of battles held there. My immersion feels legit playing on that map and is the only reason I'll join siege.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Earthdforce on September 26, 2013, 01:32:43 am
Native Turin Castle and Forest Attack would be cool to have back :D
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Canuck on September 26, 2013, 02:15:09 am
I know they aren't on the forums much but don't forget about Le Bloc Quebecois, these guys here play siege all the time as well.
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=ladderoverviewclans#!?page=claninfodetail&id=1867
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 04:53:23 am
I know they aren't on the forums much but don't forget about Le Bloc Quebecois, these guys here play siege all the time as well.
http://c-rpg.net/index.php?page=ladderoverviewclans#!?page=claninfodetail&id=1867

Just talked to DrDemento, either he or Manduin are going to rep their banner in the council
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jacko on September 26, 2013, 03:56:03 pm
Incase my gnjuspalm wasn't clear enough:

The rotations are already made by players, Teeth and Fips. Both active Sceners and players. If you want to change the rotation head over to Scene Editing and make your voice heard, I guarantee you it will be there. A 'council' of players deciding the rotation will never happen. It is by it's nature a nothing short of a circle jerk of self entitled player thinking they deserve to run it, on no other merit than that they play.

We have perfectly able bodied Scene Managers doing this, whom have played for years and have made maps currently in rotation. And you have donations..? Are you trying to bribe me ? :lol:

Now, if you want to advice these guys, go ahead. Everyone is free to do so. We'll listen anyway, with or without a council or donations.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: karasu on September 26, 2013, 04:03:01 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Penitent on September 26, 2013, 04:51:33 pm
I like Forest Attack and Native Turin.  I don't remember there being bugs on those maps...

There's a map missing from the list (active and non-active siege maps) that I remember playing.  The attackers had to go through a village on a curved path before having to knock down a gate/door on a low wall to get to the flag.  The attackers could also go right, climb a hill, and throw ladders up on a burning roof of the keep. (Yes, this was back when you could take and throw ladders in seige).   

Sorry I don't know how to describe it more accurately right now. :(

Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 05:38:17 pm
Incase my gnjuspalm wasn't clear enough:

The rotations are already made by players, Teeth and Fips. Both active Sceners and players. If you want to change the rotation head over to Scene Editing and make your voice heard, I guarantee you it will be there. A 'council' of players deciding the rotation will never happen. It is by it's nature a nothing short of a circle jerk of self entitled player thinking they deserve to run it, on no other merit than that they play.

We have perfectly able bodied Scene Managers doing this, whom have played for years and have made maps currently in rotation. And you have donations..? Are you trying to bribe me ? :lol:

Now, if you want to advice these guys, go ahead. Everyone is free to do so. We'll listen anyway, with or without a council or donations.

Teeth, who is in charge of this, has already stated if he hears from a large group of clan people, and not individual whiners, he will do it. Unless you want to overrule him that is what's going to happen.

I will bribe you though, yes, and chadz, and cmp, and whatever. If me throwing some money at you guys is what it takes to revitalize the NA servers, I don't mind doing that. You guys put in a lot of hard work, and I appreciate that.

I'm not selecting a group of "self entitled" players. I am contacting the most active clans/banner stacks who play in siege in NA, and each clan is selecting a representative who is familiar with siege play, maps, etc.

The group is diverse, and fair.

These are not "Self entitled" players. These are leaders in active cRPG communities who care about this game, and this mod, and want it to succeed. They want better and more diverse gaming experiences within the mod and community that they care about. These are not random assholes.

Please be a bit more respectful if you can. Yes, this is an internet forum, but as a developer I believe you should recognize that we are people, and we deserve respect.

Siege promotes objective based gameplay, and teamplay that many members really enjoy. It also gives the opportunity for newer players to play more actively, and not have to worry about sitting out for 5 minutes sometimes to play again and learn and improve.

The effort I am going through is selfish in a way, because I enjoy playing in siege, but it's not just about me. Many players love siege, but some of the maps and the rotation currently going is just miserable, and siege population gets cut in half when certain maps come on. Siege has great potential, and with a group of cRPG community leaders working actively to keep the rotations interesting, fun, and balanced, I believe we will benefit the community as a whole.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 05:41:25 pm
Also, this is for NA_SIEGE! If you are a Euro who is not actively involved in the map selection process for NA Siege, your input really isn't required!

We know that NA is the dirty step child of the EU servers, and we would like more NA direct involvement! Teeth and Fips are nice, but they are NOT NA PLAYERS! We want NA players working on the maps for our server, not Euros. No offense, you're all great and NA wouldn't exist without EU, but we don't care about your opinions on the servers we play on or your random European inside jokes that we don't understand.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2013, 05:59:02 pm
Also, this is for NA_SIEGE! If you are a Euro who is not actively involved in the map selection process for NA Siege, your input really isn't required!

We know that NA is the dirty step child of the EU servers, and we would like more NA direct involvement! Teeth and Fips are nice, but they are NOT NA PLAYERS! We want NA players working on the maps for our server, not Euros. No offense, you're all great and NA wouldn't exist without EU, but we don't care about your opinions on the servers we play on or your random European inside jokes that we don't understand.

What a nice way to say "please don't get offended, but fuck off 'MURICA" lol

NA-t surprised you took this approach, even though you could be polite, but that's out of character.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 06:17:31 pm
What a nice way to say "please don't get offended, but fuck off 'MURICA" lol

NA-t surprised you took this approach, even though you could be polite, but that's out of character.

I thought I was polite. I did say you guys are awesome and we know we wouldn't exist without you guys. I just am tired of the gjus spam and European players +'ing and -'ing stuff when it doesn't concern them. I have no idea who gnjus is what he plays or where, and I don't know how he's relevant to this discussion, or frankly how any Europeans not involved in the NA map selection process are relevant to this discussion.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Macropus on September 26, 2013, 06:27:24 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Sorry, EU humour again...
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Osiris on September 26, 2013, 07:03:25 pm
i see our last Donkey invasion of NA failed to teach them our superiority!
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 26, 2013, 07:06:30 pm
I wish I would have been there to pick you off on my lancer
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on September 26, 2013, 07:19:08 pm
How about instead of all this whining, go to Scene Editing, look at the thread where all the current maps are in with screenshots, decide on which maps you don't want to play on NA Siege and post why (!) in the feedback thread and then we can talk about editing the rotation. If you want new maps in there, post them as well and provide proper feedback for them and if we see them fit the servers they will surely get in there. But "put this" or "delete this" won't get you anywhere.
Also, next patch brings defenders spawn timer based on server population, so that will probably solve a lot of the issues for NA siege (as well as EU siege when low pop) and there are still no automated server restarts happening that allow teeth and myself to edit the cycle as often as we want to. Until then, there is not much we can do but to discuss what maps are never going to work for NA. And that is done in Scene Editing.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 07:20:34 pm
How about instead of all this whining, go to Scene Editing, look at the thread where all the current maps are in with screenshots, decide on which maps you don't want to play on NA Siege and post why (!) in the feedback thread and then we can talk about editing the rotation. If you want new maps in there, post them as well and provide proper feedback for them and if we see them fit the servers they will surely get in there. But "put this" or "delete this" won't get you anywhere.
Also, next patch brings defenders spawn timer based on server population, so that will probably solve a lot of the issues for NA siege (as well as EU siege when low pop) and there are still no automated server restarts happening that allow teeth and myself to edit the cycle as often as we want to. Until then, there is not much we can do but to discuss what maps are never going to work for NA. And that is done in Scene Editing.

I didn't really whine, and I'm not sure why this discussion is even continuing. Teeth has already said he would listen to a group of active NA Siege clan leaders and their suggestions, and we've already started that.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on September 26, 2013, 07:25:09 pm
There have been several threads like this already in the General Discussion and usually noone ever bothers to go to Scene Editing and do some proper feedback or anything beyond the usual QQ, so go ahead and surprise me.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 07:31:42 pm
There have been several threads like this already in the General Discussion and usually noone ever bothers to go to Scene Editing and do some proper feedback or anything beyond the usual QQ, so go ahead and surprise me.

Fips, I am TugBOAT, nice to meet you.

In real life I do a lot of community management type things, and if there's one thing I'm capable of, it's getting things done.

I have already created a Steam group, in which I am inviting leaders or representatives from the following clans:

SKoT, MB, Astralis, HG, HoC, OATH, (DrDemento & Manduin's clan), Scervo, etc. Basically leaders who are very active in siege. Some of these clan leaders I have spoken with have nominated other members of their clans more active in siege to represent their interests in this group (For example, Aldog of MB has admitted he isn't interested enough in Siege, and MB is currently selecting their representative).

As soon as the group has been established, we will begin discussions about the rotation and doing the feedback within the context of the Steamgroup. Once a consensus has been reached among the group of a decent list, we will send this to you/Teeth, as well as have the members of the council messaging you to let you know of their approval of this list.

You guys give it a look (bearing in mind that you're dirty Euros and it's none of your business ;) jk) and make it happen.

This process is going to take a couple of weeks, but I have already made contact with most of the clans above, and we will begin our discussion by this weekend.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on September 26, 2013, 07:37:05 pm
Haha, wow  :P

I'll still wait for my final judgment on this when it's done.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Teeth on September 26, 2013, 07:43:05 pm
I guess I kinda ignored the derp in the thread because I saw an opportunity for quality feedback the on rotation, but of course the map rotation is already controlled by the community as in me and Fips and nothing is stopping you from giving good feedback and being listened to. 'Map rotation is shit' and 'bring back old maps' is not good feedback by the way. Suggesting a council of players as official map rotation management is a down right horrible idea from an organizational point of view.

The assumption you make that playing on the server makes you the best available at deciding on a good map rotation is simply incorrect, similarly incorrect is the assumption that not playing on the server makes you unable to decide on a good map rotation. EU siege and NA siege are simply not that different, the only real difference when it comes to maps is the lower player count. A difference which next patch will hopefully bring some goodies for, which caused us to be hesistant about cutting big maps beforehand. Combined with the difficulty of getting a server restart. On the subject of a lack of respect, your insistence on the superiority of NA siege players when it comes to selecting maps could be taken as insulting by me and Fips, luckily 3 months as a scene manager does wonders at growing a thick skin for misguided criticism.

Nevertheless I'd love some quality player feedback, makes hard decisions to cut 'okay' maps a lot easier. As it is a group discussion providing feedback it saves me the effort of asking around for third opinions and I am sure you will quickly find that preferences for maps differ wildly between players and that there are barely any 'right' decisions. I might have misworded the degree of support I am willing to give to the outcome of your council. I won't blindly implement whatever gets decided. I will take it seriously though and revise the rotation together with Fips if any quality feedback ever comes out.

Lastly, be sure to not get carried away by nostalgia, old =/= good, and think about balance, routes and spawns. I'd love it if you could manage get Jarold or Elindor in the discussion as well. Also, PM away.

I like Forest Attack and Native Turin.  I don't remember there being bugs on those maps...
Forest Attack literally had 2 entry ways into the castle, one being a very awkward backdoor and one being a ladder that could easily be locked down for the full 6 minutes. Running into mauls for 5 minutes like its a singleplayer siege. Sure sometimes it played quite well, probably more often on low pop NA, but it is not a good map by any measure.

Turin Castle has a backdoor that is way too good. When it breaks, which is not that hard to accomplish, it takes 30-40 seconds to get to the flag, while the defenders have a 30 second respawn and often spawn quite far away from the flag.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jona on September 26, 2013, 07:43:39 pm
Let's surprise him, NA peeps!


By the way, have you contacted anyone in HoC yet?
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Elindor on September 26, 2013, 07:57:25 pm
A separate rotation for NA2 is something I discussed with Fips right after he and Teeth became Scene Managers, due to the population differences on both servers, certain maps are not as playable on NA2 usually.

I think the verdict was that it was possible if the devs allowed it.

I could help in this endeavor if people wish...

-----------------------

Here are the steps that need to happen:

1) Find out if it is possible/allowed by devs
2) Come up with NA2 rotation as a community (or small group) - I could help with this as well
3) Put into action...

----------------------
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 07:58:12 pm
A separate rotation for NA2 is something I discussed with Fips right after he and Teeth became Scene Managers.

I think the verdict was that it was possible if the devs allowed it.

I could help in this endeavor if people wish...

-----------------------

Here are the steps that need to happen:

1) Find out if it is possible/allowed by devs
2) Come up with NA2 rotation as a community (or small group) - I could help with this as well
3) Put into action...

Done.

Yo Elindor. I talked to Phew yesterday and told him to give me your Steam. Add TotallyTugBoat on steam and I'll get you in the Steam group


Let's surprise him, NA peeps!


By the way, have you contacted anyone in HoC yet?

Smegmar is in the group!
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Elindor on September 26, 2013, 08:01:10 pm
Cool will do Tug...

also...this

Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but myself and the rest of the people in the mapping community did get the attention of Paul and he wrote up a code for us that would make a dynamic spawn timer on defense, lowering the spawn time according to the population threshold. 

This should be in the next patch, and should be a BIG thing for NA2, which will hopefully retain players, actually leading to NA2 growing again.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jona on September 26, 2013, 08:04:12 pm
Cool will do Tug...

also...this

Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but myself and the rest of the people in the mapping community did get the attention of Paul and he wrote up a code for us that would make a dynamic spawn timer on defense, lowering the spawn time according to the population threshold. 

This should be in the next patch, and should be a BIG thing for NA2, which will hopefully retain players, actually leading to NA2 growing again.

While I think that this will help NA 2 1000 times over, I still think some maps are just boring, no matter the population, and therefore a community-voted map rotation would still help retain a constant population.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Elindor on September 26, 2013, 08:05:50 pm
....and therefore a community-voted map rotation would still help retain a constant population.

I endorse this.

Put the maps up with pictures, and have a poll with as many votes as people want (can vote for all if they want).

The maps with the lowest votes don't go in...I think something like that is a good idea ultimately and will get more people involved in the map situation.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 08:07:33 pm
While I think that this will help NA 2 1000 times over, I still think some maps are just boring, no matter the population, and therefore a community-voted map rotation would still help retain a constant population.

We're not going to find a map rotation that everyone is going to agree with 100%, but if we can find a map rotation that all of these representatives agree with 85% in addition to the population/timer fix, we're going to see drastic improvement. I think a combination of bringing back old popular maps, deleting maps with balance issues, as well as this script fix, we're going to have a drastic improvement.

The first change will be the big major one, and after that we can suggest tweaks and adjustments over time, adding new maps, etc.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Teeth on September 26, 2013, 08:15:05 pm
The first change will be the big major one, and after that we can suggest tweaks and adjustments over time, adding new maps, etc.
Do not forget that scene management is unable to do server restarts and patches. Now I am willing to devote myself to constant nagging of chadz or cmp until we get a server restart when it comes to a big change, but incremental adjustments are barely an option. We have been clamouring for a system that does automated regular restarts, but no success so far.

As for adding maps that are not in the module, it could take till dec 2010 for all we know.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jona on September 26, 2013, 08:45:01 pm
Smegmar is in the group!


Hahaha, have fun.

(click to show/hide)


As for adding maps that are not in the module, it could take till dec 2010 for all we know.

Um, what?
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Digglez on September 26, 2013, 08:51:24 pm
ok, so only 2 devs, which no longer work on the game are the only ones that can do server restart.  Can we get 3 more people who can do them? And maybe even someone in the NA that can do it while you guys are asleep so we can get stuff done?

Good initiative Tugboat.  Look forward to playing SIEGE more
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jacko on September 26, 2013, 10:26:21 pm
I do wonder which these old popular maps are. They wouldn't be really terrible maps that were removed for a reason, would they?

Anyway, what you are suggesting we already have in place (simply by writing in scene editing and suggesting maps, changes etc), and it works well. The rotation has always been driven by the community with scene managers acting as gatekeepers, and this will not change.

Now, we have tried getting some NA presence in rotations, but there have been very little interest. A lot of loud whining though. If this is how NA solves it's involvement issues, then I'm fine with it, but it won't get any other treatment than EU. Which still means that regardless of outcome, the managers still have the final word.

Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 26, 2013, 10:55:34 pm
I do wonder which these old popular maps are. They wouldn't be really terrible maps that were removed for a reason, would they?

Anyway, what you are suggesting we already have in place (simply by writing in scene editing and suggesting maps, changes etc), and it works well. The rotation has always been driven by the community with scene managers acting as gatekeepers, and this will not change.

Now, we have tried getting some NA presence in rotations, but there have been very little interest. A lot of loud whining though. If this is how NA solves it's involvement issues, then I'm fine with it, but it won't get any other treatment than EU. Which still means that regardless of outcome, the managers still have the final word.


Jacko, Fips and Teeth are on the same page with the group I have been putting together. We're not whining. It just seems like you're having a bad day and insulting us. There is no whining in this thread. I made an offer to fix the problem. I'm working actively to organize NA players together in a way that I know will work. It's working so far, and we're going forward with this with Fips and Teeth. Your insults are not helping the situation. I'm working hard to make a solution to the problem, and we're getting results so far.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: San on September 26, 2013, 11:01:08 pm
I don't believe he is doing this out of arrogance or elitism, but for love of the game mode and the fun gameplay it provides.

http://c-rpg.net/?page=tavernserverslist

NA 2 currently has 8 people at 5:00PM EST. That is the sad reality of NA siege, and it has been this way for quite a few months. At peak hours, it is lucky to achieve 20-30. I don't think the community coming together to choose fun maps that keep the population up is done out of any ill will towards anyone else.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 26, 2013, 11:04:56 pm
The more you have in NA2, the less you have in NA1 though...

I'm all for making NA2 better, just not looking forward to splitting up the already "low" population
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jona on September 26, 2013, 11:10:16 pm
The more you have in NA2, the less you have in NA1 though...

Not necessarily true. There are some who hate battle enough that they would never play it. Phew has said he never plays battle since he strongly dislikes it. Sure, some might leave from battle and go to siege, but many others would come from elsewhere... be it DTV, duels, or just another game altogether.  I for one would rather join DTV over battle quite often.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: TugBoat on September 27, 2013, 12:05:52 am
I don't believe he is doing this out of arrogance or elitism, but for love of the game mode and the fun gameplay it provides.

http://c-rpg.net/?page=tavernserverslist

NA 2 currently has 8 people at 5:00PM EST. That is the sad reality of NA siege, and it has been this way for quite a few months. At peak hours, it is lucky to achieve 20-30. I don't think the community coming together to choose fun maps that keep the population up is done out of any ill will towards anyone else.

San.. sempai... you.. you.. understand me...
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: kwhy on September 27, 2013, 01:34:18 am
as a regular nightly NA2 siege player I'd just like to see more players on the NA2 siege.   If there are enough players then I'll put up with any map....even Helms Deep :)

Lately there does seem to be more of a presence of Admins, but not sure if that is helping or hurting the few players that already playing each night.

As far as taking away battle players on NA1.  NA1 seems to have enough people even during non peak "HA" hours :)  Heck morning has probably a higher player average on NA1 than NA2 peek I bet.

Personally I wish there was a way to combine the two modes and just have one server doing both.  Something like run X number of battle map modes and then throw in a siege map..yeah I know que the usual, "STFU N00B bundle of sticks noone wants easy mode here"

I'll return to my corner.  I hope the timer changes fixes some of the frustration, but my guess is that certain maps just don't play well with low numbers.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Xeen on September 27, 2013, 07:04:40 am
They told Para to make a map rotation and that they would implement it.  He did it and then they just suddenly said they weren't going to do it anymore.  Then to add insult to injury, they added a bunch of really awful, clearly poorly tested maps to the rotation.  That being said, I actually really like the map rotation now.  It just doesn't matter much because low pop siege is awful. 

I've heard from several different, seemingly reputable sources, that the next patch will include a spawntime scaler for defense below 60 pop.  If that is actually true, it could completely change things.  The good thing here is that the more fun siege is at lower pop, the higher the pop we're going to get. 

Anyways.  Fuck all of this.  Just please god let us try capture the flag in NA_2.  Admins can literally switch to it right now and it is a fully functional, good game mode provided it is on a decent map.  Ruins with 40+ players would be just perfect.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Jona on September 27, 2013, 02:34:15 pm
They told Para to make a map rotation and that they would implement it.  He did it and then they just suddenly said they weren't going to do it anymore.  Then to add insult to injury, they added a bunch of really awful, clearly poorly tested maps to the rotation.  That being said, I actually really like the map rotation now.  It just doesn't matter much because low pop siege is awful. 

I've heard from several different, seemingly reputable sources, that the next patch will include a spawntime scaler for defense below 60 pop.  If that is actually true, it could completely change things.  The good thing here is that the more fun siege is at lower pop, the higher the pop we're going to get. 

Anyways.  Fuck all of this.  Just please god let us try capture the flag in NA_2.  Admins can literally switch to it right now and it is a fully functional, good game mode provided it is on a decent map.  Ruins with 40+ players would be just perfect.

Definitely want to try this game mode... but why not use NA_6 (rageball)? That server is unfortunately always empty nowadays.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Phew on September 27, 2013, 04:15:57 pm
I don't know where you are collecting map feedback, but here are some of my thoughts:

Almerra Castle
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The incline causes attackers to have to slowly tiptoe for like 30 seconds to get to a ladder/door, which is really boring. And after the first round, no one wants to beat on the door for the whole round. The left ingress route (go up ladder, jump off roof onto walls) is rarely used, so this map usually devolves into attackers going up the right ladder to a painful maul/archer death. One of the least fun maps for anyone that isn't an archer. Often defenders will just sally forth to the main gate, because that's one of the most effective choke points, and attackers still have to waste like 15-20 seconds just climbing up the hill to get there.

Holmet Castle
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This one just has too many doors to break (1-3 for every ingress route). Beating on doors for half the round is boring. Defenders can't open/close the doors to their own flag, so nearly every time attackers win, a bunch of defenders are watching helplessly through the flag doors, raging.

Jammadi Castle
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This map is OK, but has some annoying flaws. First, the main gate doors are one of the slowest ingress routes when it's open, so no one bothers breaking them. Because there are so many ingress routes and no gate controls, the map isn't progressive at all, so victory/defeat is decided solely by how patient defenders are about sitting at the oasis (since it takes attackers more than 30 seconds to get there, no matter what). This is one of the few siege maps where "camp flag" truly is the only winning strategy.

Khirin Castle
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This is a good map, but any time attackers can get more than half of their team to go left ladder, they win within a minute. That ingress route is just too "easy" compared to the others.

Native Hailes Castle
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This map is boring to attack and defend. Attackers have to spend too much time trudging uphill, and the most effective ingress point is the one that requires the most trudging. The only viable tactic for defenders when the population is less than 60 (i.e. all the time on NA2) is just sit in the gatehouse and wait, which "pubbies" never do. When a banner stack/etc does have the discipline to sit in the gatehouse, it's a hopeless murder tunnel for attackers.

Burg Rabenstein
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This one clears the server nearly every time. The nearest ladder to attacker spawn takes like 30+ seconds to scale, and I incur fall damage half the time just getting to it. Your reward for scaling this awful ladder? You have to break two doors before you can open gate. Once gate is open, it's pretty fun for attackers/defenders, but every minute or so when defenders spawn someone close enough to close gate, attackers have to endure the world's slowest ladder again. Or take the far right ladder, which isn't so slow, but still takes forever to get to gate controls. Just too much time running toward or climbing ladders, and too little time spent fighting.

Helms Deep
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The least popular map currently in the NA2 rotation, it's just sparse and boring. It has all the elements of a poor map; trudging up steep inclines just to face deadly choke points, nonsensical defender spawn points, ladders that take forever to scale, and a door you pretty much have to break near the spawn. Players like fighting each other, not walking up hills and breaking doors.

Kurosch City
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I don't think this is currently in the rotation? Good, because it's a bad map.

MAPS NOT CURRENTLY IN ROTATION, and how to fix them
Rindyar Castle
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This one is too easy for defenders (get a mauler at each of the three ladders, and game over). Maybe one of the ladders could be replaced with a siege tower? Once the attackers breach the walls, this map generally has pretty fun gameplay.

Forest Attack
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Ditto, maybe nearest ladder could get replaced with a siege tower?

Winewic Castle
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This map can be pretty fun, but the problems is that attackers almost always ignore the siege ramp, left ladder, and gate controls, and just break the three doors on the right ingress route so they can run directly to the flag. So most of the map ends up being ignored, and it becomes a slaughterhouse at the right doors. I think the right ingress route should have stairs to the walls after you break the doors, instead of just a tunnel to the courtyard. This way people would actually have an incentive to open the gate.

Bertreford Keep
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I thought this map was in the rotation? I think it's fine, abeit somewhat confusing (where's the front?).

Native Turin Castle
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Don't know what the problem is with this map, other than the left door directly to flag being too "easy" of an ingress route. There are so many viable tactics on this map, I always enjoyed attacking and defending.

Anyway, even if we cut out the 7 maps above and didn't add any, that would be OK with me because it would mean more time spent playing gems like Rudkhan, Mahdaar, and Jammeyed.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on September 27, 2013, 04:58:01 pm
Besides Helms Deep (Which is horrible with few people, i know, and i said before that i will remove it for NA completely and rework it again for EU although it's very balanced now with average population or more) you mentioned only maps that both teeth and myself agreed upon to stay on the servers because they are very balanced.
Almerra, Holmet, Jammadi, Khirin and Native Hailes Castle play super smooth on EU, most of them end with 3:2 or 2:3 on EU, so changing the maps for NA is never going to happen. Only thing we will do is to remove the worst ones. Kurosch City got back in, because the balance is great as well and it offers good spots for ranged/melee for both attackers and defenders, plus attackers can even use cavalry. Burg Rabenstein was a horrible map before the latest update, but since the newest version is on the servers it plays very well on EU, gates are usually opened within 2 or 3 minutes.

Rindyar castle will stay out, it would need a huge overhaul to get in again. Forest Attack got out because it was simply overplayed and the ladder is meh. Winewic was a horror on EU and ICEMAN told me he is not going to fix his maps, so it's out and will probably stay out. Same goes for Bertreford, plus it had huge fps-problems. Turin Castle was just about impossible to defend.

Basically what i've read from your post is that you want some kind of deathmatch instead of siege =P
Pushing Siege Towers, breaking doors/gates and walking up to a castle is part of siege and provides the maps with balance.

Once again, we are not going to change maps one by one for NA, we will just remove them from the rotation. I'd agree to add separate NA maps (But you will have to find someone to edit the maps accordingly and provide us with the stuff we need) and let NA siege have their own little map cycle, but that is only an option if spawn timers based on server population won't fix anything. So after next patch basically.

Edit: I'm not sure if that's clear already, but i'll say it again:

NA will only get a separate rotation. Meaning, maps can get out or in the way they are right now. Editing the maps especially for NA is not going to happen, unless someone from the community is willing to edit them, then i am willing to edit them into the code. But that would be a stupid effort, considering the new spawn-timers will improve basically every single map.

Also, just move your ass to Scene Editing already, this is not the place to discuss maps one by one.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Phew on September 27, 2013, 05:19:18 pm
Basically what i've read from your post is that you want some kind of deathmatch instead of siege =P
Pushing Siege Towers, breaking doors/gates and walking up to a castle is part of siege and provides the maps with balance.

Breaking doors is fine, as long as 1. it occurs in a contested region of the map (so archers/pikemen/etc have something to do) and 2. it doesn't take the whole map to break the doors with typical NA population. All of the maps I called out for having boring door breaking, typically have 1-2 attackers beating on the doors for a long time without any nearby enemies or "action". I'm sure it's not a problem with EU population levels (more people to beat on doors, more defenders to try to stop it), but a typical NA siege session involves too much time mindlessly hacking doors with no enemies in sight.

The good maps don't rely on long hills and slow ladders to delay the attack, but a progressive "front". i.e. attackers beat defenders back to the gatehouse and finally get gate open, then defenders have to simultaneously slow the onslaught through the gate while trying to close it. That's not a deathmatch, that's good gameplay.

While I'm sure the defender respawn time changes will remedy the fact that attackers usually win 3-0 on most maps on NA siege, it won't do anything to address the maps that have boring "delay" mechanics like multiple rows of isolated doors and ladders that are slow to ascend. The "progressive front" maps are nearly everyone's favorites (at least on NA), so I don't see what's wrong with catering the NA2 map rotation to NA player tastes. I don't think anyone is asking for custom maps just for NA2, just a rotation that suits NA balance issues and gameplay preferences.

Quote
Also, just move your ass to Scene Editing already, this is not the place to discuss maps one by one.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see a thread specific to NA2 rotation there. And the general map feedback thread seems like the wrong venue, since I imagine it would just get filled up with EU vs. NA pissing match posts if we started posting NA2-specific requests there.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on September 27, 2013, 05:32:29 pm
As i said like 3 times already, separate NA rotation can happen, but not from one single review of you, sorry. You should really get into contact with tugboat and the other guys and discuss it with them first so we can get a nice overview of what NA wants to get rid of and why.
There is no need for a separate NA2 feedback thread. Either you guys post one yourself or just stick to the general feedback, doesn't matter really, as long as it's clear that you are talking about NA.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Phew on September 27, 2013, 05:42:07 pm
As i said like 3 times already, separate NA rotation can happen, but not from one single review of you, sorry. You should really get into contact with tugboat and the other guys and discuss it with them first so we can get a nice overview of what NA wants to get rid of and why.

TugBoat is the OP, so obviously my post was intended for him and his cadre of NA siege leaders to provide a starting point for discussion.

Not sure what I did to warrant the defensive attitude Fips, I'm just trying to provide constructive feedback.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on September 27, 2013, 05:49:55 pm
From my understanding of this thread, it seems like they wanted to gather up on TS or something this weekend to actually discuss this stuff and then come to the forum with their results^^
That's why i didn't thought this was specifically for tugboat&co and addressed more to me or teeth.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on October 07, 2013, 01:23:54 am
So, how's that wonderful project of yours progressing?
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Fips on October 08, 2013, 05:56:45 pm
Hello my NA-friends, if you want to take the control over the NA2 map rotation you should really try to think of it anytime soon, because otherwise teeth and myself will do it on our own with a little backup from Elindor.

So bump.
Title: Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
Post by: Dooz on October 09, 2013, 07:21:30 am
one server, mix between battle and siege, sucks seeing 20 people on one 20 on the other, slow painful death