Author Topic: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community  (Read 3982 times)

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Offline San

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2013, 11:01:08 pm »
+3
I don't believe he is doing this out of arrogance or elitism, but for love of the game mode and the fun gameplay it provides.

http://c-rpg.net/?page=tavernserverslist

NA 2 currently has 8 people at 5:00PM EST. That is the sad reality of NA siege, and it has been this way for quite a few months. At peak hours, it is lucky to achieve 20-30. I don't think the community coming together to choose fun maps that keep the population up is done out of any ill will towards anyone else.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2013, 11:04:56 pm »
+1
The more you have in NA2, the less you have in NA1 though...

I'm all for making NA2 better, just not looking forward to splitting up the already "low" population
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 11:08:33 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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Offline Jona

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2013, 11:10:16 pm »
+6
The more you have in NA2, the less you have in NA1 though...

Not necessarily true. There are some who hate battle enough that they would never play it. Phew has said he never plays battle since he strongly dislikes it. Sure, some might leave from battle and go to siege, but many others would come from elsewhere... be it DTV, duels, or just another game altogether.  I for one would rather join DTV over battle quite often.
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Offline TugBoat

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2013, 12:05:52 am »
0
I don't believe he is doing this out of arrogance or elitism, but for love of the game mode and the fun gameplay it provides.

http://c-rpg.net/?page=tavernserverslist

NA 2 currently has 8 people at 5:00PM EST. That is the sad reality of NA siege, and it has been this way for quite a few months. At peak hours, it is lucky to achieve 20-30. I don't think the community coming together to choose fun maps that keep the population up is done out of any ill will towards anyone else.

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Offline kwhy

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2013, 01:34:18 am »
0
as a regular nightly NA2 siege player I'd just like to see more players on the NA2 siege.   If there are enough players then I'll put up with any map....even Helms Deep :)

Lately there does seem to be more of a presence of Admins, but not sure if that is helping or hurting the few players that already playing each night.

As far as taking away battle players on NA1.  NA1 seems to have enough people even during non peak "HA" hours :)  Heck morning has probably a higher player average on NA1 than NA2 peek I bet.

Personally I wish there was a way to combine the two modes and just have one server doing both.  Something like run X number of battle map modes and then throw in a siege map..yeah I know que the usual, "STFU N00B bundle of sticks noone wants easy mode here"

I'll return to my corner.  I hope the timer changes fixes some of the frustration, but my guess is that certain maps just don't play well with low numbers.
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Offline Xeen

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2013, 07:04:40 am »
+1
They told Para to make a map rotation and that they would implement it.  He did it and then they just suddenly said they weren't going to do it anymore.  Then to add insult to injury, they added a bunch of really awful, clearly poorly tested maps to the rotation.  That being said, I actually really like the map rotation now.  It just doesn't matter much because low pop siege is awful. 

I've heard from several different, seemingly reputable sources, that the next patch will include a spawntime scaler for defense below 60 pop.  If that is actually true, it could completely change things.  The good thing here is that the more fun siege is at lower pop, the higher the pop we're going to get. 

Anyways.  Fuck all of this.  Just please god let us try capture the flag in NA_2.  Admins can literally switch to it right now and it is a fully functional, good game mode provided it is on a decent map.  Ruins with 40+ players would be just perfect.

Offline Jona

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2013, 02:34:15 pm »
0
They told Para to make a map rotation and that they would implement it.  He did it and then they just suddenly said they weren't going to do it anymore.  Then to add insult to injury, they added a bunch of really awful, clearly poorly tested maps to the rotation.  That being said, I actually really like the map rotation now.  It just doesn't matter much because low pop siege is awful. 

I've heard from several different, seemingly reputable sources, that the next patch will include a spawntime scaler for defense below 60 pop.  If that is actually true, it could completely change things.  The good thing here is that the more fun siege is at lower pop, the higher the pop we're going to get. 

Anyways.  Fuck all of this.  Just please god let us try capture the flag in NA_2.  Admins can literally switch to it right now and it is a fully functional, good game mode provided it is on a decent map.  Ruins with 40+ players would be just perfect.

Definitely want to try this game mode... but why not use NA_6 (rageball)? That server is unfortunately always empty nowadays.
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Offline Phew

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2013, 04:15:57 pm »
+2
I don't know where you are collecting map feedback, but here are some of my thoughts:

Almerra Castle
(click to show/hide)
The incline causes attackers to have to slowly tiptoe for like 30 seconds to get to a ladder/door, which is really boring. And after the first round, no one wants to beat on the door for the whole round. The left ingress route (go up ladder, jump off roof onto walls) is rarely used, so this map usually devolves into attackers going up the right ladder to a painful maul/archer death. One of the least fun maps for anyone that isn't an archer. Often defenders will just sally forth to the main gate, because that's one of the most effective choke points, and attackers still have to waste like 15-20 seconds just climbing up the hill to get there.

Holmet Castle
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This one just has too many doors to break (1-3 for every ingress route). Beating on doors for half the round is boring. Defenders can't open/close the doors to their own flag, so nearly every time attackers win, a bunch of defenders are watching helplessly through the flag doors, raging.

Jammadi Castle
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This map is OK, but has some annoying flaws. First, the main gate doors are one of the slowest ingress routes when it's open, so no one bothers breaking them. Because there are so many ingress routes and no gate controls, the map isn't progressive at all, so victory/defeat is decided solely by how patient defenders are about sitting at the oasis (since it takes attackers more than 30 seconds to get there, no matter what). This is one of the few siege maps where "camp flag" truly is the only winning strategy.

Khirin Castle
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This is a good map, but any time attackers can get more than half of their team to go left ladder, they win within a minute. That ingress route is just too "easy" compared to the others.

Native Hailes Castle
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This map is boring to attack and defend. Attackers have to spend too much time trudging uphill, and the most effective ingress point is the one that requires the most trudging. The only viable tactic for defenders when the population is less than 60 (i.e. all the time on NA2) is just sit in the gatehouse and wait, which "pubbies" never do. When a banner stack/etc does have the discipline to sit in the gatehouse, it's a hopeless murder tunnel for attackers.

Burg Rabenstein
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This one clears the server nearly every time. The nearest ladder to attacker spawn takes like 30+ seconds to scale, and I incur fall damage half the time just getting to it. Your reward for scaling this awful ladder? You have to break two doors before you can open gate. Once gate is open, it's pretty fun for attackers/defenders, but every minute or so when defenders spawn someone close enough to close gate, attackers have to endure the world's slowest ladder again. Or take the far right ladder, which isn't so slow, but still takes forever to get to gate controls. Just too much time running toward or climbing ladders, and too little time spent fighting.

Helms Deep
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The least popular map currently in the NA2 rotation, it's just sparse and boring. It has all the elements of a poor map; trudging up steep inclines just to face deadly choke points, nonsensical defender spawn points, ladders that take forever to scale, and a door you pretty much have to break near the spawn. Players like fighting each other, not walking up hills and breaking doors.

Kurosch City
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I don't think this is currently in the rotation? Good, because it's a bad map.

MAPS NOT CURRENTLY IN ROTATION, and how to fix them
Rindyar Castle
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This one is too easy for defenders (get a mauler at each of the three ladders, and game over). Maybe one of the ladders could be replaced with a siege tower? Once the attackers breach the walls, this map generally has pretty fun gameplay.

Forest Attack
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Ditto, maybe nearest ladder could get replaced with a siege tower?

Winewic Castle
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This map can be pretty fun, but the problems is that attackers almost always ignore the siege ramp, left ladder, and gate controls, and just break the three doors on the right ingress route so they can run directly to the flag. So most of the map ends up being ignored, and it becomes a slaughterhouse at the right doors. I think the right ingress route should have stairs to the walls after you break the doors, instead of just a tunnel to the courtyard. This way people would actually have an incentive to open the gate.

Bertreford Keep
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I thought this map was in the rotation? I think it's fine, abeit somewhat confusing (where's the front?).

Native Turin Castle
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Don't know what the problem is with this map, other than the left door directly to flag being too "easy" of an ingress route. There are so many viable tactics on this map, I always enjoyed attacking and defending.

Anyway, even if we cut out the 7 maps above and didn't add any, that would be OK with me because it would mean more time spent playing gems like Rudkhan, Mahdaar, and Jammeyed.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 04:48:34 pm by Phew »

Offline Fips

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2013, 04:58:01 pm »
-3
Besides Helms Deep (Which is horrible with few people, i know, and i said before that i will remove it for NA completely and rework it again for EU although it's very balanced now with average population or more) you mentioned only maps that both teeth and myself agreed upon to stay on the servers because they are very balanced.
Almerra, Holmet, Jammadi, Khirin and Native Hailes Castle play super smooth on EU, most of them end with 3:2 or 2:3 on EU, so changing the maps for NA is never going to happen. Only thing we will do is to remove the worst ones. Kurosch City got back in, because the balance is great as well and it offers good spots for ranged/melee for both attackers and defenders, plus attackers can even use cavalry. Burg Rabenstein was a horrible map before the latest update, but since the newest version is on the servers it plays very well on EU, gates are usually opened within 2 or 3 minutes.

Rindyar castle will stay out, it would need a huge overhaul to get in again. Forest Attack got out because it was simply overplayed and the ladder is meh. Winewic was a horror on EU and ICEMAN told me he is not going to fix his maps, so it's out and will probably stay out. Same goes for Bertreford, plus it had huge fps-problems. Turin Castle was just about impossible to defend.

Basically what i've read from your post is that you want some kind of deathmatch instead of siege =P
Pushing Siege Towers, breaking doors/gates and walking up to a castle is part of siege and provides the maps with balance.

Once again, we are not going to change maps one by one for NA, we will just remove them from the rotation. I'd agree to add separate NA maps (But you will have to find someone to edit the maps accordingly and provide us with the stuff we need) and let NA siege have their own little map cycle, but that is only an option if spawn timers based on server population won't fix anything. So after next patch basically.

Edit: I'm not sure if that's clear already, but i'll say it again:

NA will only get a separate rotation. Meaning, maps can get out or in the way they are right now. Editing the maps especially for NA is not going to happen, unless someone from the community is willing to edit them, then i am willing to edit them into the code. But that would be a stupid effort, considering the new spawn-timers will improve basically every single map.

Also, just move your ass to Scene Editing already, this is not the place to discuss maps one by one.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 05:05:36 pm by Fips »

Offline Phew

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2013, 05:19:18 pm »
0
Basically what i've read from your post is that you want some kind of deathmatch instead of siege =P
Pushing Siege Towers, breaking doors/gates and walking up to a castle is part of siege and provides the maps with balance.

Breaking doors is fine, as long as 1. it occurs in a contested region of the map (so archers/pikemen/etc have something to do) and 2. it doesn't take the whole map to break the doors with typical NA population. All of the maps I called out for having boring door breaking, typically have 1-2 attackers beating on the doors for a long time without any nearby enemies or "action". I'm sure it's not a problem with EU population levels (more people to beat on doors, more defenders to try to stop it), but a typical NA siege session involves too much time mindlessly hacking doors with no enemies in sight.

The good maps don't rely on long hills and slow ladders to delay the attack, but a progressive "front". i.e. attackers beat defenders back to the gatehouse and finally get gate open, then defenders have to simultaneously slow the onslaught through the gate while trying to close it. That's not a deathmatch, that's good gameplay.

While I'm sure the defender respawn time changes will remedy the fact that attackers usually win 3-0 on most maps on NA siege, it won't do anything to address the maps that have boring "delay" mechanics like multiple rows of isolated doors and ladders that are slow to ascend. The "progressive front" maps are nearly everyone's favorites (at least on NA), so I don't see what's wrong with catering the NA2 map rotation to NA player tastes. I don't think anyone is asking for custom maps just for NA2, just a rotation that suits NA balance issues and gameplay preferences.

Quote
Also, just move your ass to Scene Editing already, this is not the place to discuss maps one by one.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see a thread specific to NA2 rotation there. And the general map feedback thread seems like the wrong venue, since I imagine it would just get filled up with EU vs. NA pissing match posts if we started posting NA2-specific requests there.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 05:25:23 pm by Phew »

Offline Fips

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2013, 05:32:29 pm »
-1
As i said like 3 times already, separate NA rotation can happen, but not from one single review of you, sorry. You should really get into contact with tugboat and the other guys and discuss it with them first so we can get a nice overview of what NA wants to get rid of and why.
There is no need for a separate NA2 feedback thread. Either you guys post one yourself or just stick to the general feedback, doesn't matter really, as long as it's clear that you are talking about NA.

Offline Phew

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2013, 05:42:07 pm »
+1
As i said like 3 times already, separate NA rotation can happen, but not from one single review of you, sorry. You should really get into contact with tugboat and the other guys and discuss it with them first so we can get a nice overview of what NA wants to get rid of and why.

TugBoat is the OP, so obviously my post was intended for him and his cadre of NA siege leaders to provide a starting point for discussion.

Not sure what I did to warrant the defensive attitude Fips, I'm just trying to provide constructive feedback.

Offline Fips

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2013, 05:49:55 pm »
+1
From my understanding of this thread, it seems like they wanted to gather up on TS or something this weekend to actually discuss this stuff and then come to the forum with their results^^
That's why i didn't thought this was specifically for tugboat&co and addressed more to me or teeth.

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2013, 01:23:54 am »
+1
So, how's that wonderful project of yours progressing?

Offline Fips

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Re: I will donate to cRPG if devs give NA_2 map control to the community
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2013, 05:56:45 pm »
+1
Hello my NA-friends, if you want to take the control over the NA2 map rotation you should really try to think of it anytime soon, because otherwise teeth and myself will do it on our own with a little backup from Elindor.

So bump.