People like me who don't kill peasants should be banned too because I'm "hurting" the performance of my team.
Question 1: What measures are taken to ensure admins actually understand the rules?
Question 2: Why was no action taken against Ragnar_Ulfson who "didn't see what happened either" yet continued to post no less than nine separate times in my thread?
Question 3: if bro-coding your team to defeat is the same as team wounding why isn't the punishment?
Yesterday, Kolee and Khmer purposefully threw a match on NA1 so their friend could win.
Well that is one opinion of what happened. Kolee and Khmer may have their own opinion.
I asked you specifically, "Were they forcing duels?". Your answer: "No." So Kelugarn's reponse of "forcing duels is against the rules" do not apply.
What happened? "They were walking past each other and did a little up block and went on by." So they weren't interfering with teammates attempting to kill that player, so again, "instances of bro-coding that negatively impact your team" also didn't apply.
The only thing you described was players choosing to bypass each other, and since as you personally described it, there were other players alive on both teams, the round was not being delayed.
The rules are enforced as written. In lovely Smoothrich's example, the rule that says you cannot switch characters as I did 2 years ago, which allows you to spawn again in a round did not exist. Now that it does exist, it has been adhered to and enforced as written.
In this case, choosing not to attack the closest enemy also is not against the rules with the above caveats (forcing duels, interfering with teammates via bro-coding, or delaying the round by refusing to engage as one of the last alive). Otherwise, by that interpretation, I would be forced to ban dozens of players every round, including every cavalry that races past each other to spawn rape wouldn't I?
I'm sorry you didn't get the result you felt you deserved. However, you provided no screenshots that could perhaps have filled in where your words have failed to describe a situation where rules were broken. I feel bad for you that you've allowed the loss of a round to consume you for such a long period of time. Shadowren's reminder to have fun and remember that it is a game meant to be played as such as very pertinent.
People like me who don't kill peasants should be banned too because I'm "hurting" the performance of my team.
No, Sir, you should be banned because we cannot tolerate such leniency towards the peasantry! Next they'll wanna vote!You haven't been seen in the Gentlemen's Club - therefore you're just common filthy rabble and peasantry yourself! Away with him!
People like me who don't kill peasants should be banned too because I'm "hurting" the performance of my team.
Or when I RP my Jedi character and peacefully walk around the map until someone attacks me first.
Ban anyone having fun. The OP demands it.
Q1- Read rules, ask other admins if unsure and learn as you go :D
Q2- Idk i don't play every day to be caught up in all the drama. (ask another admin)
Q3- Bro-Coding is against the rules. Easy warn/kick/ban
Well that is one opinion of what happened. Kolee and Khmer may have their own opinion.
Otherwise, by that interpretation, I would be forced to ban dozens of players every round, including every cavalry that races past each other to spawn rape wouldn't I?
I'm sorry you didn't get the result you felt you deserved. However, you provided no screenshots that could perhaps have filled in where your words have failed to describe a situation where rules were broken. I feel bad for you that you've allowed the loss of a round to consume you for such a long period of time. Shadowren's reminder to have fun and remember that it is a game meant to be played as such as very pertinent.
Question 1: What measures are taken to ensure admins actually understand the rules?
Question 2: Why was no action taken against Ragnar_Ulfson who "didn't see what happened either" yet continued to post no less than nine separate times in my thread?
Question 3: if bro-coding your team to defeat is the same as teamwounding why isn't the punishment?
This is pretty irritating. For example I recently helped out a teammate by surgically horsebumping the enemy he was fighting, and instead of stabbing the bastard on the ground and getting that sweet, sweet cavalry assist he was irate because I fucked up him and his enemy buddy's duel.
If only there was a duel server where people could go to duel without others interfering :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
1: None, mainly because the rules are incredibly vague. Go take a look at http://forum.meleegaming.com/announcements/official-server-rules/ (http://forum.meleegaming.com/announcements/official-server-rules/). Then come back here and tell me which rule applies to this situation. Admins are trusted enough to use their own judgement in situations like this, but not every admin is going to have the same opinion.
Rule of thumb: If you are not helping your team to win the round you are doing something wrong.
"bro-coding" with the opposite team is consider leeching "Not contributing is leeching"Refusing to kill your friends is not contributing. Players cannot decide to contribute only when they are the last players left and forced to do so.
2: Has nothing to do with admins. Admins can only lock and move threads in the unban sections. That's all the forum rights they have. Taking action against Ragnar would be something a global moderator would have to do.
3: One admin considering it the same as teamwounding, doesn't mean that every admin does. Again, there are no official rules on this issue. Personally, I have no problem with "bro-coding", as long as it doesn't result in intentional teamwounding.
There are official server rules on this issue. It is not too much to ask for an admin team to be on the same page regarding official server rules. It is not too much to ask for an admin team which actively takes steps to ensure fellow admins know the rules. Otherwise you get this kind of worst-case scenario, where Granpappy refuses to even acknowledge that rules were broken and Kelugarn swoops in to lock the ban thread with a slap on the wrist.
From reading both yours and Granpappy's post, there isn't a clear way to see what happened. Checking the logs doesn't reveal anything in this situation, either.
If you feel you were wronged, just wait till it happens again. Report it again. Don't stop reporting it in admin chat. You never know who's watching. Generally speaking, admins will avoid taking action if they don't see it themselves. The solution often involves long-term spectating, and the 'crime', if it occurs, often goes unpunished until the perpetrators commit it a second time in plain view of the admin.
From reading both yours and Granpappy's post, there isn't a clear way to see what happened. Checking the logs doesn't reveal anything in this situation, either.
I usually don't like to stick my head into stuff like this, but Wrang is absolutely right... This was ridiculous.
I was on a x5 multiplier and lost it because of this. Sherben comes right up to AngkorWat and Kolee, salutes them both, then proceeds to go forward and kill 3 people in the back (ultimately resulting in the loss of the round).
People are so used to this by now, that's why most people are saying "Who cares man?" or "Relax, it's no big deal."
If we served bans for every player that bro-coded on occasion then we'd end up banning half of the NA population. The only time when bro-ing it up is close to "game breaking" is when the last man alive is getting hugs from the entire enemy team, and even when that happens it only lasts for a few seconds before someone goes for the kill. . . Try and remember that it's just one round in a mod about internet horses and two-handed swords, and sometimes the other people that play like to be creative and have fun in ways other than murderorgy2010. Making a thread bitching and moaning about how someone didn't take the game seriously enough is not going to get you anywhere.
Ganking clanmates who are in TeamSpeak with you is some of the most fun you can have in the game.
Ganking clanmates who are in TeamSpeak with you is some of the most fun you can have in the game.
People like you should be banned for posting condescending straw-man sophistry. If you want to peacefully walk around the map and not fight then do it on another server - I am sorry if this inconveniences you but griefing the entire server by ignoring the official rules is not an acceptable alternative.
It doesn't matter if you try to manipulate what I said I know the server rules and what I do is perfectly within my rights as a player.
If you can find this mythological rule that every person must fight the nearest enemy at all times I'll be happy to abide by it. Until then I'll continue to role-play my Jedi Master who only fights in self-defense. Maybe if you too pretended to be a Jedi you'd lighten up and stop being a mad try-hard.
Here is the Jedi Code to get you started:
There is no emotion...
There is peace.
There is no ignorance...
There is knowledge.
There is no passion...
There is serenity.
There is no chaos...
There is harmony.
There is no death...
There is the force.
If you are unable or unwilling to embrace a lighter play style then feel free to find me on the battlefield and try to kill me. You probably wont succeed, but if you do I want you to know that I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Well that is one opinion of what happened. Kolee and Khmer may have their own opinion.
I asked you specifically, "Were they forcing duels?". Your answer: "No." So Kelugarn's reponse of "forcing duels is against the rules" do not apply.
What happened? "They were walking past each other and did a little up block and went on by." So they weren't interfering with teammates attempting to kill that player, so again, "instances of bro-coding that negatively impact your team" also didn't apply.
The only thing you described was players choosing to bypass each other, and since as you personally described it, there were other players alive on both teams, the round was not being delayed.
The rules are enforced as written. In lovely Smoothrich's example, the rule that says you cannot switch characters as I did 2 years ago, which allows you to spawn again in a round did not exist. Now that it does exist, it has been adhered to and enforced as written.
In this case, choosing not to attack the closest enemy also is not against the rules with the above caveats (forcing duels, interfering with teammates via bro-coding, or delaying the round by refusing to engage as one of the last alive). Otherwise, by that interpretation, I would be forced to ban dozens of players every round, including every cavalry that races past each other to spawn rape wouldn't I?
I'm sorry you didn't get the result you felt you deserved. However, you provided no screenshots that could perhaps have filled in where your words have failed to describe a situation where rules were broken. I feel bad for you that you've allowed the loss of a round to consume you for such a long period of time. Shadowren's reminder to have fun and remember that it is a game meant to be played as such as very pertinent.
Wrang I'd like to point out how the quote you chose to put next to my name is misleading. The part about bitching and moaning refers strictly to the manner in which people present their complaints and the lack of formality and respect found in most ban threads. As with most things being civil and sensible works in your favor far better than coming off as a flippant egocentric and that's what the line you chose refers to, not to my interpretations of the rules.
Thank you for responding. I will not remove the quote in the OP because there is overwhelming evidence which leads me to believe you do not take bro-coding seriously. You have not addressed, for example, the discrepancies in ban duration and failure to factor ban history in your Kolee/Khmer warning. Nevertheless I will add your protest to the OP in the spirit of fairness.
Wait, this bullshit is still going on?(click to show/hide)
Question 1: What measures are taken to ensure admins actually understand the rules?
Question 2: Why was no action taken against Ragnar_Ulfson who "didn't see what happened either" yet continued to post no less than nine separate times in my thread?
Question 3: if bro-coding your team to defeat is the same as teamwounding why isn't the punishment?
If an admin makes a contentious decision we have an entire forum board devoted to the NA admins for us to discuss such things as past decisions, rules clarifications, and players whose behavior we should be wary of. In part it's a sort of system of peer review. Consistent improper administrative action can be dealt with by removal of admin power. Such cases are rare.
- Borderline again: choosing to stay out of a fight against someone on the enemy team, such as the last player alive, when he's fighting some of your teammates. (unless you're the last person alive on your team, and possibly if there's only one or two others on your team)
- Light rule breach (merits warning at least): coming into contact with a friend on the opposite team, acknowledging but refusing to attack him to allow him access to fight your team unhindered. *this is the example as per the ban request, I think
- Breach of rules: blocking your teammates from being able to attack a player on the opposite team (also includes griefing rule).
- Breach of rules: attacking teammates for trying to attack a player on the opposite team (also includes intentional teamwounding rule).
We try to keep in sync with one another and remain consistent, but because so many of the concepts in the rules are open to interpretation and there are no guidelines for issuing punishments beyond our personal judgment, there tend to be intermittent discrepancies.
What is the purpose of this forum: http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-admin-feedback/
I had understood that forum to be the place for "peer review" of admins yet it now seems that despite not knowing whether a significant portion of admins have even read the rules you trust them to review each other's comprehension of those rules in secret?
Even you admit that the only examples of banworthy bro-coding necessarily involve breaking a second, clearer rule. Obviously attacking a teammate is against the rules whether or not that teammate is your friend. Have you ever banned a player for one of the "yellow" offenses? Has any admin? I check the ban request forum from time to time in between rounds and I have never seen an admin issue a ban for one of your listed offenses. As far as I can tell, the last time someone tried to get admins to take action against obvious bro-coding, that ban request was simply moved to general discussion.
Except you do not know if the admin team tries to keep in sync with one another and remain consistent. You just said that you simply direct new admins to the rules and old admins may not have even read them.
It seems the only way to lose admin powers is to consistently misapply rules. Obviously the safest route for admins is to not apply the rules at all. "I didn't see it" is far safer than "I classify this particular instance of bro-coding as ban-worthy." Not only do admins risk losing their power from a poor decision but they risk being ostracized by the community. Make all admins re-apply for the privilege every month. Rotate the head admin title through senior admins frequently. Remove inactive admins.
[...]This.
As also said before, "Common Sense" is the main rule for any given scenario[...]
Have you ever banned a player for one of the "yellow" offenses? Has any admin?
It seems the only way to lose admin powers is to consistently misapply rules. Obviously the safest route for admins is to not apply the rules at all. "I didn't see it" is far safer than "I classify this particular instance of bro-coding as ban-worthy." Not only do admins risk losing their power from a poor decision but they risk being ostracized by the community. Make all admins re-apply for the privilege every month. Rotate the head admin title through senior admins frequently. Remove inactive admins.
I have nothing to do with, nor any knowledge of this situation, or how the NA admins operate in general. . . You also seems to expect a lot of profesionalism from a bunch of unpaid admins in a mod.
Probably not, because most admins don't consider it ban worthy.
Being an admin is a service to the community, not a privilege. The minor benefits are far outweighted by the major inconviences.
Yesterday you had no knowledge of how the NA admins operate.
- Borderline, probably doesn't warrant admin action: choosing not to chase a player on the opposite team who is moving to attack your teammates without being contested.
- Borderline again: choosing to stay out of a fight against someone on the enemy team, such as the last player alive, when he's fighting some of your teammates. (unless you're the last person alive on your team, and possibly if there's only one or two others on your team)
Even you admit that the only examples of banworthy bro-coding necessarily involve breaking a second, clearer rule. Obviously attacking a teammate is against the rules whether or not that teammate is your friend. Have you ever banned a player for one of the "yellow" offenses? Has any admin? I check the ban request forum from time to time in between rounds and I have never seen an admin issue a ban for one of your listed offenses. As far as I can tell, the last time someone tried to get admins to take action against obvious bro-coding, that ban request was simply moved to general discussion.
- Light rule breach (merits warning at least): coming into contact with a friend on the opposite team, acknowledging but refusing to attack him to allow him access to fight your team unhindered. *this is the example as per the ban request, I think
Ganking clanmates who are in TeamSpeak with you is some of the most fun you can have in the game.
Oh hey there Saul, I'll just be on my- no, wait, stop; what are you doing? Oh g-BLAEAGJLKEJF
Even this is context-specific, in particular time-sensitive. When is the supposed infraction occurring: at the beginning of the round, during the round, or near the end of the round? I have definitely "bro-coded" in this manner in the beginning of the round and even during the round, but never at the end of the round. *As a note I would only ever bro-code people I know I couldn't easily beat, because by bro-coding better players I ensure my survival and possibility of continuing to contribute to the success of my team during the rest of the round. But I guess you wouldn't be able to consider that bro-coding so much as strategic selection of combat.
Also I would never willingly engage Saul in a one-on-one unless I had to because I know that the results of that encounter are death or death. Of course this would never actually pan out to be an issue because:
This is not the best way to achieve victory for your team and a very poor justification for "bro coding"... If you encounter someone THAT dangerous the best for your team is to tie them down by distracting them and drawing out a fight with them. You can use a defensive posture to prolong the 1 v 1 fight and extend your chances of survival until hopefully help arrives. This is much more productive than just letting them walk away to mow through teammates. I do this all the time against dangerous players like San or Saul.
I think we need to reinstate Smoothrich as an admin to clean up this rotten state of affairs. We need Dirty Harry back.
What is the purpose of this forum: http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-admin-feedback/
I had understood that forum to be the place for "peer review" of admins yet it now seems that despite not knowing whether a significant portion of admins have even read the rules you trust them to review each other's comprehension of those rules in secret?
Even you admit that the only examples of banworthy bro-coding necessarily involve breaking a second, clearer rule. Obviously attacking a teammate is against the rules whether or not that teammate is your friend. Have you ever banned a player for one of the "yellow" offenses? Has any admin? I check the ban request forum from time to time in between rounds and I have never seen an admin issue a ban for one of your listed offenses. As far as I can tell, the last time someone tried to get admins to take action against obvious bro-coding, that ban request was simply moved to general discussion.
Except you do not know if the admin team tries to keep in sync with one another and remain consistent. You just said that you simply direct new admins to the rules and old admins may not have even read them.
It seems the only way to lose admin powers is to consistently misapply rules. Obviously the safest route for admins is to not apply the rules at all. "I didn't see it" is far safer than "I classify this particular instance of bro-coding as ban-worthy." Not only do admins risk losing their power from a poor decision but they risk being ostracized by the community.
Make all admins re-apply for the privilege every month. Rotate the head admin title through senior admins frequently. Remove inactive admins.
Can you guys stfu and play already
Whole thread = tl;dr
Actually, the only people that need to take a look in the mirror are those who take this game so seriously that they have taken out the fun aspect of it. They have turned it into a grind where the only satisfaction they receive is rolling on a multi, and that's just wrong.
Actually, the only people that need to take a look in the mirror are those who take this game so seriously that they have taken out the fun aspect of it. They have turned it into a grind where the only satisfaction they receive is rolling on a multi, and that's just wrong.
Now, before everyone starts talking about you fun is not my fun or other shit like that, at the end of the day this thread was started because someone lost a multi. I don't know about you, but I have just as much fun playing at x1 as I do at x5 and if I happen to lose my multi, I just keep on playing. Hell, I try more at x1 so I can get a x5 in 3 rounds (gotta love dat valour).
If the point of this thread was to expose the fact that admins are inconsistent, I'm not sure anyone who has played the game for longer than a couple weeks that does not know this. Considering that I'm playing this for free, and the admins are volunteers who also want to play the game and not just police it, I'm fine with the inconsistency. Never been banned, never gotten anyone banned. Just play the game, forget about the multi, and your chance of developing an aneurysm will drop dramatically.
You completely misunderstood what the OP is speaking of. Glad you could explain how much you love to play the game. I too enjoy playing the game much more than spectating the game. The OP is pointing out how the current amount of bro-coders on NA_1 recently has made the game you seem to love so much to be much less enjoyable sadly. I don't want people to get banned, I just want people to stop doing it. It isn't funny. It isn't cute. It is simply just wasting everyone on the servers time when people bro-code.
You sure that was the point? All he did was ask different admins questions and wrote down their responses.
Bro-coding happens maybe 5% of the time on the server, and quite frankly, when you have a mounted ranged the last person alive it delays the rounds so much more than bro-coding.
War. is. WAR
Apparently you just didn't read the initial post then.
If you don't like people delaying games then you have to understand the frustration that Wrang is showing in his OP. He took things slightly further in regards to admin discrepancy but the situation that inspired his post was having to do with bro-coding.
This thread had nothing to do with delaying.
So there isn't a correlation between people bro-coding and delaying?
Can bro-coding be against the rules? Yes, in some cases. I'll use a scale of examples to show what I mean.
- Not against the rules: seeing an opponent you wouldn't like to fight on one end of the battlefield, moving to the opposite side.
- Not against the rules: seeing a friend of yours in a row of enemies facing your row of teammates, choosing not to move over to attack him.
- Not against the rules: running away from a specific opponent, as long as delaying rules do not apply.
- Borderline, probably doesn't warrant admin action: choosing not to chase a player on the opposite team who is moving to attack your teammates without being contested.
- Borderline again: choosing to stay out of a fight against someone on the enemy team, such as the last player alive, when he's fighting some of your teammates. (unless you're the last person alive on your team, and possibly if there's only one or two others on your team)
- Light rule breach (merits warning at least): coming into contact with a friend on the opposite team, acknowledging but refusing to attack him to allow him access to fight your team unhindered. *this is the example as per the ban request, I think
- Breach of rules: blocking your teammates from being able to attack a player on the opposite team (also includes griefing rule).
- Breach of rules: attacking teammates for trying to attack a player on the opposite team (also includes intentional teamwounding rule).
I love how the moment he brings up a really good point you fucks change the subject to asinine gifs. Good fucking fight cRPG community. Good fucking fight.
Edit: The admins are doing a fine job, but you people need to take a good hard look in the mirror.