Author Topic: RE: Admin Transparency  (Read 6903 times)

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Offline Wrangham

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RE: Admin Transparency
« on: July 16, 2013, 01:28:12 am »
+16
EDIT: ADMIN RESPONSES

Listed below are the consolidated responses from admins concerning the scope of their authority and their understanding of the official server rules. I have edited the formatting of a few responses for clarity's sake. Please use this thread to consolidate the various (and conflicting) positions of admins on their interpretation of server rules and/or the apparently complete lack of oversight.

Canary: No oversight ensuring admin competence. Bro-coding is not against the rules. "The only (NA) admins who have assuredly been directed to the rules" are new.
(click to show/hide)

Shadowren: No oversight ensuring admin competence. Bro-coding is against the rules.
(click to show/hide)

IG_Saint: No oversight ensuring admin competence. Bro-coding is not against the rules. Do not "expect a lot of profesionalism [sic] from a bunch of unpaid admins in a mod."
(click to show/hide)

Granpappy: (Ignored question about oversight.) Bro-coding is not against the rules. Necessary to provide screenshots to adequately describe bro-coding.
(click to show/hide)

Kelugarn: Bro-coding is not against the rules.  "Making a thread bitching and moaning about how someone didn't take the game seriously enough is not going to get you anywhere."
(click to show/hide)

Muki: Bro-coding is against the rules.
(click to show/hide)

==================
Original Post below
==================

Yesterday, Kolee and Khmer purposefully threw a match on NA1 so their friend could win. The only admin on at the time, Granpappy, did nothing about it. Moments later, I described to Granpappy what happened as precisely as I could. Granpappy told me that the scenario I described was not against the rules, both in-game and again in a forum thread on the issue: "I'll let another Admin lock the thread for you Wrang"

Question 1: What measures are taken to ensure admins actually understand the rules?

http://forum.meleegaming.com/na-(official)/rules-and-guidelines-(please-read-this-before-posting)/

Admin Kelugarn on the issue: "Forcing duels in NA_1 and NA_2 is against the rules, and instances of bro-coding which negatively affect your team are also against the rules. . . This is game is about team play, intentionally hurting the performance of your team is no different from team killing and team wounding."

Why does Granpappy not understand that this kind of bro-coding is against the rules? Why do members of the community need to create threads to remind some admins that the rules exist?  Will Kelugarn be forced to admin the admins in perpetuity? More on Kelugarn to come!

=======================================

Frustrated by the only online admin refusing to take action on an obvious violation, I created the following thread in the ban request forum.

http://forum.meleegaming.com/na-(official)/kolee-and-angkorwat_of_chaos/

Question 2: Why was no action taken against Ragnar_Ulfson who "didn't see what happened either" yet continued to post no less than nine separate times in my thread?

How can admins expect the playerbase to take ban requests seriously when the majority of responses are irrelevant mudslinging? Admins selectively enforce rules, personally flaunt them, and do a disservice to the entire community-driven ban request section.

===============================

After I told Granpappy about Kolee and Khmer throwing the match, he did not take any action. He offered an excuse - "dueling is not against the rules." Except: dueling IS against the rules, except in limited situations where players consent to it. I have been playing cRPG for a while. I am a generally articulate and responsible player. I have never been the subject of any admin warn/ban/kick/mute/etc. And yet when I identify a problem to an admin, instead of being taken seriously I am treated with the most dismissive possible attitude. Granpappy even came to my ban request thread and added his own insipid commentary: "I'll let another Admin lock the thread for you Wrang"

What is the end result of all this? Kelugarn says "intentionally hurting the performance of your team is no different from team killing and team wounding," and then locks the thread, preventing any other players from contributing relevant commentary. Kolee and Khmer get off with a warning. Here are Kelugarn's three most recent admin actions for team killing and team wounding, you know, those actions that are no different than throwing a match:

Kelugarn gives a warning (bro-code throwing a match)
http://forum.meleegaming.com/na-(official)/kolee-and-angkorwat_of_chaos/

Kelugarn gives a 2h ban (teamwounding)
http://forum.meleegaming.com/na-(official)/ban-request-try_cikel/msg823421/#msg823421

Kelugarn gives a 16h ban (teamwounding)
http://forum.meleegaming.com/na-(official)/good-ol'-prayamantus/msg823901/#msg823901

Kelugarn bans and then unbans 2 players who are new to the community. Their first infraction ever.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/na-(official)/unban-faldemir/msg819730/#msg819730

Question 3: if bro-coding your team to defeat is the same as teamwounding why isn't the punishment?

Kolee and Khmer have been around a while. What is their prior ban/warn record? Why are they treated much more leniently than two new players? I guess the only positive thing to take away from this all is the admins don't expect veterans like Kolee and Khmer to understand the rules, probably because the admins don't either.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:52:03 pm by Wrangham »

Offline Gmnotutoo

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 02:20:51 am »
+22
People like me who don't kill peasants should be banned too because I'm "hurting" the performance of my team.

Or when I RP my Jedi character and peacefully walk around the map until someone attacks me first.

Ban anyone having fun. The OP demands it.
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 02:26:40 am »
-1
People like me who don't kill peasants should be banned too because I'm "hurting" the performance of my team.

Oh, you do it too? I sometimes just simply walk by a peasant. Why would I kill him when he's not able to kill anyone at all. Of course it could be a fake peasant though with 8-10 PS. :P

Anyway, can't say much to OP. This stuff sometimes happens. I usually directly attack anyone when facing him, especially clan members.
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Offline Shadowren

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 02:32:28 am »
-1

Question 1: What measures are taken to ensure admins actually understand the rules?

Question 2: Why was no action taken against Ragnar_Ulfson who "didn't see what happened either" yet continued to post no less than nine separate times in my thread?

Question 3: if bro-coding your team to defeat is the same as team wounding why isn't the punishment?

Q1- Read rules, ask other admins if unsure and learn as you go  :D

Q2- Idk i don't play every day to be caught up in all the drama. (ask another admin)

Q3- Bro-Coding is against the rules. Easy warn/kick/ban

Don't forget to have fun tho and remember that its just a game!  :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 02:38:53 am by Shadowren »
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 02:52:47 am »
+4
Granpappy has always been a moron with no understanding of the rules, and has even been caught rejoining servers for multiple lives, and when called out on it said he'd start banning cav who spawnkill because in his opinion, THAT is against the rules.

Don't expect anything but nonsense from that guy.
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Offline Rumblood

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 04:03:28 am »
+7
Yesterday, Kolee and Khmer purposefully threw a match on NA1 so their friend could win.

Well that is one opinion of what happened. Kolee and Khmer may have their own opinion.

I asked you specifically, "Were they forcing duels?". Your answer: "No." So Kelugarn's reponse of "forcing duels is against the rules" do not apply.

What happened? "They were walking past each other and did a little up block and went on by." So they weren't interfering with teammates attempting to kill that player, so again, "instances of bro-coding that negatively impact your team" also didn't apply.

The only thing you described was players choosing to bypass each other, and since as you personally described it, there were other players alive on both teams, the round was not being delayed.

The rules are enforced as written. In lovely Smoothrich's example, the rule that says you cannot switch characters as I did 2 years ago, which allows you to spawn again in a round did not exist. Now that it does exist, it has been adhered to and enforced as written.

In this case, choosing not to attack the closest enemy also is not against the rules with the above caveats (forcing duels, interfering with teammates via bro-coding, or delaying the round by refusing to engage as one of the last alive). Otherwise, by that interpretation, I would be forced to ban dozens of players every round, including every cavalry that races past each other to spawn rape wouldn't I?

I'm sorry you didn't get the result you felt you deserved. However, you provided no screenshots that could perhaps have filled in where your words have failed to describe a situation where rules were broken. I feel bad for you that you've allowed the loss of a round to consume you for such a long period of time. Shadowren's reminder to have fun and remember that it is a game meant to be played as such as very pertinent.


"I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday" – Abraham Lincoln

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Offline Strudog

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 09:27:22 am »
+2
Well that is one opinion of what happened. Kolee and Khmer may have their own opinion.

I asked you specifically, "Were they forcing duels?". Your answer: "No." So Kelugarn's reponse of "forcing duels is against the rules" do not apply.

What happened? "They were walking past each other and did a little up block and went on by." So they weren't interfering with teammates attempting to kill that player, so again, "instances of bro-coding that negatively impact your team" also didn't apply.

The only thing you described was players choosing to bypass each other, and since as you personally described it, there were other players alive on both teams, the round was not being delayed.

The rules are enforced as written. In lovely Smoothrich's example, the rule that says you cannot switch characters as I did 2 years ago, which allows you to spawn again in a round did not exist. Now that it does exist, it has been adhered to and enforced as written.

In this case, choosing not to attack the closest enemy also is not against the rules with the above caveats (forcing duels, interfering with teammates via bro-coding, or delaying the round by refusing to engage as one of the last alive). Otherwise, by that interpretation, I would be forced to ban dozens of players every round, including every cavalry that races past each other to spawn rape wouldn't I?

I'm sorry you didn't get the result you felt you deserved. However, you provided no screenshots that could perhaps have filled in where your words have failed to describe a situation where rules were broken. I feel bad for you that you've allowed the loss of a round to consume you for such a long period of time. Shadowren's reminder to have fun and remember that it is a game meant to be played as such as very pertinent.




If there were a lot of people still playing on the server than i guess what you say is correct, but if there were 3-5 people then that is bannable, because you are helping your Bro's win.

My understanding of the rule
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Offline RobertOfDrugsley

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 10:55:52 am »
+1
People like me who don't kill peasants should be banned too because I'm "hurting" the performance of my team.

No, Sir, you should be banned because we cannot tolerate such leniency towards the peasantry! Next they'll wanna vote!
I find the idea of defending someone who isn't been violently raped unacceptable on moral grounds.

Offline Molly

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 11:05:27 am »
+2
No, Sir, you should be banned because we cannot tolerate such leniency towards the peasantry! Next they'll wanna vote!
You haven't been seen in the Gentlemen's Club - therefore you're just common filthy rabble and peasantry yourself! Away with him!
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Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 01:16:59 pm »
+5
I'd just like to say that the Remnants of Stratia extensively used and coined the term bro code.

The price of its widespread use (and subsequent removal from legal play) of the bro code was the mass banning of the entire RS clan from the (then) only North American servers there were.

I guess it didn't help that Pik Nik danced on the body of the admin of the time after we started running exclusive assassination missions on the guy every round.


Bam. Some old timer history lesson for you. I miss you Pik Nik.
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Offline Wrangham

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 03:53:06 pm »
+1
People like me who don't kill peasants should be banned too because I'm "hurting" the performance of my team.

Or when I RP my Jedi character and peacefully walk around the map until someone attacks me first.

Ban anyone having fun. The OP demands it.

People like you should be banned for posting condescending straw-man sophistry. If you want to peacefully walk around the map and not fight then do it on another server - I am sorry if this inconveniences you but griefing the entire server by ignoring the official rules is not an acceptable alternative.

Q1- Read rules, ask other admins if unsure and learn as you go  :D

Q2- Idk i don't play every day to be caught up in all the drama. (ask another admin)

Q3- Bro-Coding is against the rules. Easy warn/kick/ban

OK lets straighten this out.

1) Admins should ask other admins if unsure.

2) Admin Shadowren is unsure about something.

3) Admin Shadowren asks another admin and responds to a player's greivance.

3.5) Oops that isn't what happens at all. Shadowren decides (1) was a bad idea; its better to just tell the players to find an admin who cares. Why should Shadowren care? How many terrible Spiderman reboots do we need before people realize that with power comes responsibility?

Well that is one opinion of what happened. Kolee and Khmer may have their own opinion.

Why didn't you ask Kolee and Khmer what happened? You were the only admin online in the presence of 30+ players who had just witnessed a potentially bannable offense!

Quote
Otherwise, by that interpretation, I would be forced to ban dozens of players every round, including every cavalry that races past each other to spawn rape wouldn't I?

No. Please stop playing stupid. Every single man, woman, and child who has spent more than an hour on NA1 knows exactly what Kolee and Khmer did and why it is different than cavalry riding past one another.

Quote
I'm sorry you didn't get the result you felt you deserved. However, you provided no screenshots that could perhaps have filled in where your words have failed to describe a situation where rules were broken. I feel bad for you that you've allowed the loss of a round to consume you for such a long period of time. Shadowren's reminder to have fun and remember that it is a game meant to be played as such as very pertinent.

The result I deserve is an admin team who cares more about the community than their friendship with trolls. I do not care about losing a round. I care that when a player like myself brings up an issue with admins he is summarily dismissed by an admin who does not understand the rules (you) and then has a legitimate ban thread locked with a token response by another admin (Kelugarn.) I care that when I post a thread like this with three simple questions to the admins, several admins stop in to share their off-topic comments and ignore serious questions. Or worse, pull a Shadowren and answer those questions in a way that shows they didn't bother to read the OP / just don't care.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 04:08:07 pm »
+4
no-2-2 there's a difference between not engaging someone when there's 30v30 still, and not engaging the last enemy when you're standing 3 feet away from them, and then you lose the round without an attempt at fighting the enemy, that should be punishable.  You just wasted the time and efforts of your whole team.

I don't understand bro-coding, if I see my clanmate on the other team, I'm going out of my way to kill them if I get the chance.  It's a video game, if the guy facing you is on the enemy team, try to kill them (or run away). Standing around, or getting in the way of your teammates trying to kill the enemy, should be bannable. 

I know if a teammate is standing next to an enemy and not attempting to kill them, I'm going to fly in there and try to hit the enemy and have no regrets if I accidentally hit the bro-coding teammate. 
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Offline IG_Saint

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 04:16:45 pm »
+3

Question 1: What measures are taken to ensure admins actually understand the rules?

Question 2: Why was no action taken against Ragnar_Ulfson who "didn't see what happened either" yet continued to post no less than nine separate times in my thread?

Question 3: if bro-coding your team to defeat is the same as teamwounding why isn't the punishment?

1: None, mainly because the rules are incredibly vague. Go take a look at http://forum.meleegaming.com/announcements/official-server-rules/. Then come back here and tell me which rule applies to this situation. Admins are trusted enough to use their own judgement in situations like this, but not every admin is going to have the same opinion.

2: Has nothing to do with admins. Admins can only lock and move threads in the unban sections. That's all the forum rights they have. Taking action against Ragnar would be something a global moderator would have to do.

3: One admin considering it the same as teamwounding, doesn't mean that every admin does. Again, there are no official rules on this issue. Personally, I have no problem with "bro-coding", as long as it doesn't result in intentional teamwounding.


Offline obitus

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 04:20:20 pm »
+12
This is pretty irritating.  For example I recently helped out a teammate by surgically horsebumping the enemy he was fighting, and instead of stabbing the bastard on the ground and getting that sweet, sweet cavalry assist he was irate because I fucked up him and his enemy buddy's duel.

If only there was a duel server where people could go to duel without others interfering  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Offline Strudog

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Re: Request for Admin Transparency
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 04:49:35 pm »
+7
This is pretty irritating.  For example I recently helped out a teammate by surgically horsebumping the enemy he was fighting, and instead of stabbing the bastard on the ground and getting that sweet, sweet cavalry assist he was irate because I fucked up him and his enemy buddy's duel.

If only there was a duel server where people could go to duel without others interfering  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But then people don't get to see how amazing you are at duelling
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Little girls are FBI agents.
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