cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: darmaster on July 06, 2013, 05:51:05 pm

Title: ranged
Post by: darmaster on July 06, 2013, 05:51:05 pm
i know this QQ has already been done by the NA side, but it wasn't enough clear imo; i don't think you devs have realized that buffing ranged is killiing the mod, that they are annoying, for everyone, and no matter what they mustn't be treated equally. we have to face the truth that ranged classes are cancer, i agree they have to be inside the game, for sure, but not as they are now; nerf them, put a number limit to ranged, do whatever you want but do something, and do it asap please; eu 1 is already empty.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: BASNAK on July 06, 2013, 05:54:49 pm
Ok I'll post this before-hand to every ranged that will post in this thread:

shut your whore mouth ranged my old friend
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Tibe on July 06, 2013, 05:58:09 pm
Whats the matter Fartmaster? Your pitiful shield got shot to bits and you decided to throw a tantrum? :twisted:
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Adamar on July 06, 2013, 06:00:00 pm
Devs, either remove ranged or keep it playable. Dont toy around with the playerbase.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Miwiw on July 06, 2013, 06:32:10 pm
Such stupid threads, seriously. You're either totally dumb or seriously lost in hatred (cause you died once without being able of hitting back). Infantry and cavalry decides 98% of all rounds. It has always been like this. Be aware that crossbows usually count as infantry too as 90% of those got average melee skills as well (such as 100 wpf and 5-6 PS + IF sometimes and decent armor despite the use of their crossbows).
Archers have rarely ever decided a round. There are sometimes maps that are better for Archers during early and mid round when for example camping a certain high ground. If Archers are nicely split up they do easily shoot enemy inf to pieces. However it usually ends with infantry and cav getting close to the enemy and slaying them without any real effort.

Just compare it, an Archer can take down an infantry/cav player with a lucky shot to the head (not all of those 1hit). At lvl 28+ an Archer becomes as strong as an infantry if you compare the damage. However infantry really takes more hits. They got more armor, an Archer who's medium armored lacks movement speed and a little drawing speed + aim but only has around 35-40 body armor (and maybe some more due to gauntlets).
40 body armor is light for infantry. 80% of the infantry players wear heavier armor than Heraldic Mail.
Even with my last gear set up which gave me 55 body armor I had been a 1hit by a simple pole thrust (0 IF, infantry maybe had 5-8 PS). Usually you can be lucky to survive more than 1 hit.
Melee ability for archers are too costy if you compare it to additonal points in AGI/WM or PD. An Archer hybrid is only a bit better than an Archer in melee without any PS/wpf. You notice a difference tho but it's usually not enough when facing a dedicated 2h player who got at least 7 PS or 7 WM or maybe both (if skill level of both is the same).

For an Archer.... meh I just notice I cba to finish this post as most of the infantry players who are infested with hate vs ranged, will ignore anything but their own opinion and keep on claiming that a "certain" class was destroying the game.
That's the sad part about people.

In the end I had it far easier when playing 2h, I won far more rounds, got valour in 2/3 of my rounds and finished generations much faster than playing as archer.
Keep on hating.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Oberyn on July 06, 2013, 06:34:10 pm
Archers have rarely ever decided a round.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah sure, maybe a single individual archer (and even then that ignores a lot of the archer superstars who absolutely can influence a round on their own) but a knot of 5-6 my old friendchers hiding behind their inf blob? Are you serious? Even if their blob gets decimated, practically every round ends with the knot fragmenting and falling back to different angles to create crossfires. These don't always work, but rarely? eh.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Miwiw on July 06, 2013, 06:37:26 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah sure, maybe a single individual archer (and even then that ignores a lot of the archer superstars who absolutely can influence a round on their own) but a knot of 5-6 my old friendchers hiding behind their inf blob? Are you serious?

And a group of infantry does neither decide a round? A group of cavalry doesnt either? You cannot tell me that you think 50 Archers will ever win vs 50 infantry players (who also have shields and probably throwing weapons).

Here it comes again, you don't see ranged as a real part of the game. Of course Archers are able to shoot down infantry while theyre fully protected by their own infantry. That's how it is intended to work.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Oberyn on July 06, 2013, 06:43:26 pm
And a group of infantry does neither decide a round? A group of cavalry doesnt either? You cannot tell me that you think 50 Archers will ever win vs 50 infantry players (who also have shields and probably throwing weapons).

Here it comes again, you don't see ranged as a real part of the game. Of course Archers are able to shoot down infantry while theyre fully protected by their own infantry. That's how it is intended to work.

You were the one whining about how archers totally weren't as effective as either cavalry or infantry. Now you turn around and say "hur dur cav and inf can be  just as effective!!". Yes, I know. That was my point. I never said archers are destroying the game. They are obviously all inhuman bundle of stickss, because I can't conceive of any other way anyone could enjoy playing ranged in this game (beyond throwing maybe). That doesn't mean I don't think they are part of the game.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Berserkadin on July 06, 2013, 06:45:15 pm
No, whiny ass bitching melee elitists who wants to nerf shit is destroying this game, so fuck off. I myself play melee btw. But I guess most melee players are 14 year old girls with a constantly bleeding pussy.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Oberyn on July 06, 2013, 06:49:23 pm
No, whiny ass bitching melee elitists who wants to nerf shit is destroying this game, so fuck off. I myself play melee btw. But I guess most melee players are 14 year old girls with a constantly bleeding pussy.

Is that supposed to be adressed to me? If so, it's quite a retarded nonsequitur. But I guess most 14 year old girls on a constant period might have reading comprehension issues.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Osiris on July 06, 2013, 06:50:53 pm
As a shieldnoob i don't really find archers much of a problem, (HA/HX sure as hell piss me off) A shield really does help a lot if you have decent battlefield awareness and if your surrounded by archers then you are screwed (but you would be in melee anyway)

with most players hitting levels 31+ now would it really be so hard to put some points into shield instead of trying to max out a perfect duel build? :D


my 2h is going to be 18-18 with some throwing. throwing messes up those ranged runner my old friends ^^
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Tibe on July 06, 2013, 06:51:26 pm
No, whiny ass bitching melee elitists who wants to nerf shit is destroying this game, so fuck off. I myself play melee btw. But I guess most melee players are 14 year old girls with a constantly bleeding pussy.
Thats messed up bro....
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: obitus on July 06, 2013, 06:52:20 pm
Infantry and cavalry decides 98% of all rounds.

 8-)
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Berserkadin on July 06, 2013, 06:53:18 pm
Is that supposed to be adressed to me? If so, it's quite a retarded nonsequitur. But I guess most 14 year old girls on a constant period might have reading comprehension issues.
Noone in general, why so sensitive?

Smart melee players get some kind of tool to use against ranged, like maybe abit of ranged yourself. War darts and Snowflakes (snowflakes are 0 slot) are very effective for a small investment. But I guess it's alot more fun to cry on forums then actually trying to adapt.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Ulter on July 06, 2013, 06:58:00 pm
What's killing the mod are people who refuse to use any countermeasures against ranged and then compain about them being too powerful.
It's as if a pure archer was complainging about meele classes being too strong.
This stupid hypocrisy is really annoying.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Oberyn on July 06, 2013, 06:58:59 pm
It's as if a pure archer was complainging about meele classes being too strong.

Isn't that exactly what Miwiw was doing?
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Tibe on July 06, 2013, 07:05:25 pm
What's killing the mod are people who refuse to use any countermeasures against ranged and then compain about them being too powerful.
It's as if a pure archer was complainging about meele classes being too strong.
This stupid hypocrisy is really annoying.

Its due to the fact that this game mainly boasts with superb meleemechanics. In which the dedicated meleeplayers feel like its their birthright to be the ultimate masters of this game in general. That they have the right to call everything non-melee the plague of Warband and that ranged is a last minute broken mechanic that is destroying their paradise.

Alot of people bitch about ranged, but I dont think they really mean what the say or claim cause the meleeonly servers are completely empty compared to the regular ones. Personally I feel like only having melee is just boring.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Osiris on July 06, 2013, 07:05:57 pm
People don't like teamwork. They want to be heroes who cut bloody swathes through the enemy

Often you see people in light armour with 2h the perfect dueling set up who go charging into the middle of a gank and then qq about being shot or Team hit same with archers who stand in the middle of nowhere then qq about cav. People want the best of their favoured class but none of the drawbacks which is why we get lots of silly QQ threads (not saying this is one i think the number of archers is crazy atm)

Its why we get people moaning about  archery buff and nerf at the same time <3


probably also why the devs don't pay attention to threads like this.



Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Miwiw on July 06, 2013, 07:06:53 pm
Isn't that exactly what Miwiw was doing?

No. I often respecced from pure archer to hybrid (or directly melee) cause it is just awful not being able to do anything. If I get a build without melee skills, its my own fault in the end. At the same time it's the inf's own fault not to get 3-5 shield skill or a throwing weapon to have some tool to counter archers.

I am fine with archers. I would also be fine if they were a bit weaker. I do not mind. It's usually more about personal skill anyway. I'm not going through forums and crying about a class (except for HX! it has been quite difficult to counter HX with any class, now the patch weakened them a bit, that's fine). ;)
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Torben on July 06, 2013, 07:07:41 pm
this is just like the great cav spam in 0`12,  it will go away.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Oberyn on July 06, 2013, 07:07:49 pm
Alot of people bitch about ranged, but I dont think they really mean what the say or claim cause the meleeonly servers are completely empty compared to the regular ones. Personally I feel like only having melee is just boring.

Agreed. And it makes cav completely OP. Archers and xbows are, sadly, a necessary evil.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: XyNox on July 06, 2013, 07:18:33 pm
To be honest I dont see how all your melee lives are destroyed due to this patch. Although dodging arrows is a little harder now and requires more awareness, its still possible.

Its not like I want to rub it all over your melee faces ( although I think many would deserve it ) but just deal with it. If you really feel that archers now have gotten an undeserved buff, congratulations. Now you know how archers felt every single day for months/years. Getting killed because of unfair bullshit that you cant do anything about is pretty much the definition of archer-gameplay. Now dont whine that you cant ez mode 1-hit cleave any archer to peaces anymore by just wiggling your mouse around a little for "dodging".

The only thing to blame devs for is probably the fact that they made melee gameplay more and more casual by nerfing ranged, so that some people just got used to it too much. Of course people will now have to understand that grabbing a longsword/greatsword and running through the map like a headless chicken isnt the jack of all trades anymore since the lack of a shield of 2h/pole now means an actual WEAKNESS due to the buff of ranged, which was badly in need anyway. As I said, yes arrows are faster now but its not too late to learn how to use cover or how to use maplayout or even teammates to your advantage, as archers have to do it everyday in order to survive too.

Just be cool, archers managed to handle a lot more in the past than you have to handle with this little patch. Just adapt HUE HUE HUE HUE. ( Get it ? Lobbymaster Tzar reference here )

Now bring on the butthurt elitist QQ minus shitstorm. Every single one of those I will embrace with great satisfaction.

...

Hmm, I got carried away there a little. I guess I DID rub it all over your melee faces  :D Just to be clear though: If you do not think you fit this stereotype of a dumb melee player I presented above, feel free not to consider yourself to be adressed by any of this of course. All this whine is simply too gorgeous for me to restrain myself  :lol:

Edit:

Due to this patch I even decided to go archer hybrid this time. Since low tier bows are more than utter nonsense now and I do not necessarily need to run around with a longbow/rusbow to be of any use to the team, I bought a MW heavy bastard and can now enjoy the sweet ez modery of 2h hiltslashing WHILE being an archer with a 15/24 build ... it is just so beautiful to spam some plated scrub to death since I can affort enough wpf and ps now to not get outspammed while glancing on 9 out of 10 strikes. Isnt this what everyone wanted ? An archer who can actually defend himself instead of running away ?
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: darmaster on July 06, 2013, 07:34:45 pm
Such stupid threads, seriously. You're either totally dumb or seriously lost in hatred (cause you died once without being able of hitting back). Infantry and cavalry decides 98% of all rounds. It has always been like this. Be aware that crossbows usually count as infantry too as 90% of those got average melee skills as well (such as 100 wpf and 5-6 PS + IF sometimes and decent armor despite the use of their crossbows).
Archers have rarely ever decided a round. There are sometimes maps that are better for Archers during early and mid round when for example camping a certain high ground. If Archers are nicely split up they do easily shoot enemy inf to pieces. However it usually ends with infantry and cav getting close to the enemy and slaying them without any real effort.

Just compare it, an Archer can take down an infantry/cav player with a lucky shot to the head (not all of those 1hit). At lvl 28+ an Archer becomes as strong as an infantry if you compare the damage. However infantry really takes more hits. They got more armor, an Archer who's medium armored lacks movement speed and a little drawing speed + aim but only has around 35-40 body armor (and maybe some more due to gauntlets).
40 body armor is light for infantry. 80% of the infantry players wear heavier armor than Heraldic Mail.
Even with my last gear set up which gave me 55 body armor I had been a 1hit by a simple pole thrust (0 IF, infantry maybe had 5-8 PS). Usually you can be lucky to survive more than 1 hit.
Melee ability for archers are too costy if you compare it to additonal points in AGI/WM or PD. An Archer hybrid is only a bit better than an Archer in melee without any PS/wpf. You notice a difference tho but it's usually not enough when facing a dedicated 2h player who got at least 7 PS or 7 WM or maybe both (if skill level of both is the same).

For an Archer.... meh I just notice I cba to finish this post as most of the infantry players who are infested with hate vs ranged, will ignore anything but their own opinion and keep on claiming that a "certain" class was destroying the game.
That's the sad part about people.

In the end I had it far easier when playing 2h, I won far more rounds, got valour in 2/3 of my rounds and finished generations much faster than playing as archer.
Keep on hating.

Those words in bald are probably the most idiotic words I've ever read; anyway, even if I know i should have stopped at the first line (i love that 98% because it means you're accurate in your bullshits), xbowmen count as fucking ranged; the fact they can handle their selves in melee just gives points to me, not to your argument. Archers have rarely ever decided a round? are you sure you're playing crpg? i dunno maybe you're used to eu 2, i really hope so? I don't know if you noticed that after this patch, at the end of every round there are at least 60-70% of ranged. i'm not really going to comment the rest, since a sentence like "an Archer can take down an infantry/cav player with a lucky shot to the head" doesn't make any sense, and others like "I had been a 1hit by a simple pole thrust" are simply bullshit; I, with 7 ps, hardly ever take down an archer with a single hit, unless I hit him in the head (i don't see any problem in this case).


Alot of people bitch about ranged, but I dont think they really mean what the say or claim cause the meleeonly servers are completely empty compared to the regular ones. Personally I feel like only having melee is just boring.
Agreed. And it makes cav completely OP. Archers and xbows are, sadly, a necessary evil.


i agree they have to be inside the game, for sure, but not as they are now; nerf them, put a number limit to ranged, do whatever you want but do something, and do it asap please; eu 1 is already empty.

I too don't like only melee servers, ranged has to exist, but as I already said not as it is now. If you don't want to nerf them it's ok for me, but at least put a balance and/or limit the amount of ranged in a single team. There's a reason why in tournaments we don't have 70% of archers in a single team.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Miwiw on July 06, 2013, 07:45:25 pm
Those words in bald are probably the most idiotic words I've ever read; anyway, even if I know i should have stopped at the first line (i love that 98% because it means you're accurate in your bullshits), xbowmen count as fucking ranged; the fact they can handle their selves in melee just gives points to me, not to your argument. Archers have rarely ever decided a round? are you sure you're playing crpg? i dunno maybe you're used to eu 2, i really hope so? I don't know if you noticed that after this patch, at the end of every round there are at least 60-70% of ranged. i'm not really going to comment the rest, since a sentence like "an Archer can take down an infantry/cav player with a lucky shot to the head" doesn't make any sense, and others like "I had been a 1hit by a simple pole thrust" are simply bullshit; I, with 7 ps, hardly ever take down an archer with a single hit, unless I hit him in the head (i don't see any problem in this case).


Those words in bald are (probably) the most idiotic words I've ever read; (...) I'm not really going to comment the rest (...)
Ye, you're good at arguing proving points.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: obitus on July 06, 2013, 07:48:36 pm
One of the biggest problems came when everyone's aim mysteriously got fucking fantastic.  A year and a half ago I never got shot at 100+ meters and now it happens damn near every round.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: obitus on July 06, 2013, 07:51:40 pm
this is just like the great cav spam in 0`12,  it will go away.

Cav got nerfed to shit.  That probably had something to do with it.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: darmaster on July 06, 2013, 07:58:40 pm
Those words in bald are (probably) the most idiotic words I've ever read; (...) I'm not really going to comment the rest (...)
Ye, you're good at arguing proving points.

 i should have probably argued in your way; maybe typing lies to support my point would have helped more

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Kalam on July 06, 2013, 08:07:22 pm
Here's where the basic anger against ranged comes from.

You can hit your enemy without fear of immediate retaliation. There's nothing a melee guy can do until he reaches you. Shielders (in NA at least- we only have one or two high agi shielders that aren't gimmicks) are about as slow as archers and crossbowman- and the new spate of lance throwers have made this worst.

Control the battlefield, you win the round. If your team has more ranged, you control the battlefield because you're drawing the enemy to you. That's the advantage everyone instinctively dislikes, I believe. Not the damage they do or anything like that (though it does suck being one-shot by them) but the fact that they control the battle.

The other part of the frustration is that ranged these days don't get one hit or even two hit, contrary to XyNox' post. Spend the entire round sneaking up on ranged. Get there. Hit the ranged guy twice, hit his other friend thrice, they're both still alive, they shoot you in the face, you die. You know who one hits me? Not melee, usually. Ranged. Ranged one hits me.

You see, the team that s-keys wins, and if you have all the ranged, then you're forcing people to W-key.

Title: Re: ranged
Post by: betard_lulz on July 06, 2013, 08:10:57 pm
all im hearing from the anti ranged my old friends is wahhhhh i cant move left to right and wah i refuse to use cover and wah i want to be able to charge in a straight line to an archer.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: BlueKnight on July 06, 2013, 08:17:33 pm
this is just like the great cav spam in 0`12,  it will go away.
It went away cuz heavy lance transformed into heavy glance and cav that didn't quit, it became 1h cav. You don't have many EU lancecavs except you Torby, Musashi, Oliviero and Grellenort (sorry to all lancers that I didn't mention). Also Ujin plays lancer from time to time but I don't see him very often on EU_1.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Berserkadin on July 06, 2013, 08:32:53 pm
Here's where the basic anger against ranged comes from.

You can hit your enemy without fear of immediate retaliation. There's nothing a melee guy can do until he reaches you. Shielders (in NA at least- we only have one or two high agi shielders that aren't gimmicks) are about as slow as archers and crossbowman- and the new spate of lance throwers have made this worst.

Control the battlefield, you win the round. If your team has more ranged, you control the battlefield because you're drawing the enemy to you. That's the advantage everyone instinctively dislikes, I believe. Not the damage they do or anything like that (though it does suck being one-shot by them) but the fact that they control the battle.

The other part of the frustration is that ranged these days don't get one hit or even two hit, contrary to XyNox' post. Spend the entire round sneaking up on ranged. Get there. Hit the ranged guy twice, hit his other friend thrice, they're both still alive, they shoot you in the face, you die. You know who one hits me? Not melee, usually. Ranged. Ranged one hits me.

You see, the team that s-keys wins, and if you have all the ranged, then you're forcing people to W-key.
As melee, invest 1-2 points into throwing, then you can use war darts and shurikens. Fight fire with fire.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: karasu on July 06, 2013, 08:56:09 pm
pew pew


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Ulter on July 06, 2013, 09:01:10 pm
Here's where the basic anger against ranged comes from.

You can hit your enemy without fear of immediate retaliation. There's nothing a melee guy can do until he reaches you. Shielders (in NA at least- we only have one or two high agi shielders that aren't gimmicks) are about as slow as archers and crossbowman- and the new spate of lance throwers have made this worst.

Control the battlefield, you win the round. If your team has more ranged, you control the battlefield because you're drawing the enemy to you. That's the advantage everyone instinctively dislikes, I believe. Not the damage they do or anything like that (though it does suck being one-shot by them) but the fact that they control the battle.

The other part of the frustration is that ranged these days don't get one hit or even two hit, contrary to XyNox' post. Spend the entire round sneaking up on ranged. Get there. Hit the ranged guy twice, hit his other friend thrice, they're both still alive, they shoot you in the face, you die. You know who one hits me? Not melee, usually. Ranged. Ranged one hits me.

You see, the team that s-keys wins, and if you have all the ranged, then you're forcing people to W-key.

Getting 1 hit by ranged can only happen if:
-You wear light armour (and the ranged is heavy crossbowman or a powerful thrower) in which case it's your own fault)
-You get hit in the head (only powerful ranged weapons can kill somebody with a good helmet this way though)

For "controlling the battlefield" part - I agree with you. It is a problem, but it can be solved easily. I remmember a user named Joker suggesting adding capture points to battle many, many times. That's a simple solution that works, just look at siege : ranged has never been as frustrating as in battle there.

Also remmember not to put all the ranged into the same bag, an archer is different than a crossbowman, a thrower is also not the same.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Torost on July 06, 2013, 09:12:20 pm
Too much ranged? ...

1. Remove crossbows ...
2. Celebrate

easy..
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Strudog on July 06, 2013, 09:14:08 pm
People said get points in shield to combat ranged so i did, dosent work

People said use an agi build to catch the archers so i did, didnt work 

People said play cav to counter archers so i did, horse gets 3-4 shot by archers ( that being a champion warhorse) and it takes 2 lance thrusts and 2 couches to kill an archer

i liked ranged the way they were before, there were enough to persuade the outcome of the battlefield but no too many that i would GTX because there were 10-15 archers standing on a hill.

The only reason why i wear heavy armour is because of ranged, i dont want to be 1 shot by an arbalest 24/7 or 2 hit by a bow, its just frustrating.

Archers were fine before and only the bad archers complained about how bad it was, revert back to the old archery, it required more skill
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: OttomanSniper on July 06, 2013, 09:28:25 pm
Bow archer %30
xbow archer %70

pls get PD skill for xbow, every str player is archer and u say "too many archer in the server" how...
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: obitus on July 06, 2013, 09:31:10 pm
heavy lance meganerf was a direct buff to all ranged.  this is old news.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Gurnisson on July 07, 2013, 04:40:40 am
-You wear light armour (and the ranged is heavy crossbowman or a powerful thrower) in which case it's your own fault)

I've been one-shot by an 18/27 archer with rus bow and bodkins. While I only had rags on me [(>15 armour), there was no height advantage and I had 5 ironflesh. Just throwing it out there.


I'm not leaning either way on this, to be honest. I think non-loomed archers got a very deserved buff and I support archers getting better accuracy and higher missile speed. However, anyone suggesting that archers rarely decided the outcomes of rounds or claiming that their damage was on the weak side (except previously non-loomed) are just way off the mark. Archers, or ranged in general, has always had the easiest way of taking down the prime targets of the enemy team, without them having time to contribute too much to their team before going down, which is the number one way to make an impact on a round. Archers were very overpowered before they were slowed down by the weight adjustment, because of the lack of counters. Can't hate on them now though, while the damage seem quite extreme at times, they're not without counters anymore and deserve to have the pros they still have.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Gnjus on July 07, 2013, 06:31:00 am
Bow archer %30
xbow archer %70

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Ulter on July 07, 2013, 10:28:33 am
People said get points in shield to combat ranged so i did, dosent work

People said use an agi build to catch the archers so i did, didnt work 

People said play cav to counter archers so i did, horse gets 3-4 shot by archers ( that being a champion warhorse) and it takes 2 lance thrusts and 2 couches to kill an archer

i liked ranged the way they were before, there were enough to persuade the outcome of the battlefield but no too many that i would GTX because there were 10-15 archers standing on a hill.

The only reason why i wear heavy armour is because of ranged, i dont want to be 1 shot by an arbalest 24/7 or 2 hit by a bow, its just frustrating

Archers were fine before and only the bad archers complained about how bad it was, revert back to the old archery, it required more skill

Shields work really well, the problem is that the lower difficulty ones are made of paper and break after catching 10 arrows and don't stop bolts at all...

I mostly agree on archers being fine before. Except a few frustrating things (arrows heavy as if they were made of lead, ridiculous upkeep, non bodkin arrows almost useless...) they seemed OK to me combat- strenght wise, completely terrible when it comes to money and repairs however...

I don't like the random spread of arrows in the crosshair though. It takes away skill from shots and could be replaced by something more interesting (for example, instead of having this "cone of fire" for bows, we could have the crosshair move around the screen randomly, area of this movement depending on the accuracy)
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: korppis on July 07, 2013, 10:29:38 am
IMHO whole Battle game mode has dumbed down quite a lot. When I started 2 years ago, there was less ranged overall (especially xbows), and they used to be much less skilled than nowdays. We also had much, much better variety of city / village maps + ladders. With all that combined, it used to be possible to do flank trips which made the battle so much more enjoyable (nothing beats 10 shielders jumping in the middle of enemy team from rooftop  8-)). And thanks to that the battles used to change place a lot more often than now.

Now most ranged are ADHD snipers who have eyes around all the time. If you try to flank you get shot instantly. Most of the maps are just open plains with hardly any cover, and ladders are gone for those few city maps that's left. Right now the only thing you can do is to stay with the big blob of a team, run around like headless chicken trying to not get shot and wait for the mindless blob to collide with the other team.

There may be no way of limiting the amount of ranged if that's what people really want to play, but a lot could be done with some map work and maybe introducing ladders back. Sure some would abuse them at first, but that could be fixed with some rules.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Grumbs on July 07, 2013, 10:40:51 am
Making ranged effective while the player doesn't invest much gold either through repairs or looms is the complete opposite of how to balance ranged.

If you have half the players playing ranged it still makes the game dull to play regardless of the damage 1 ranged might do by himself. Don't balance like its a 1v1 situation for ranged, they are effectively 1vs many at any time, and when you have multiple ranged in an area able to target 1 guy it gets OP. The key is to make playing the class require some investment from the player or make the risk vs reward less appealing for players that want reward without risk. Or make playing the class require tonnes of skill.

You should make it so killing someone with ranged is like a melee player killing a very skill melee player, because there are very few skill challenges to overcome when it comes to shooting a player in this game. Put the onus on the ranged to have to make great shots to get the huge advantage that dealing damage from ranged brings you. High reward for low risk is the opposite of what should be encouraged in this game. The recent buffs make no sense whatsoever

+2 damage for all xbows for a small gold increase was the dumbest move i've seen in a while too
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Kalam on July 07, 2013, 09:01:59 pm
IMHO whole Battle game mode has dumbed down quite a lot. When I started 2 years ago, there was less ranged overall (especially xbows), and they used to be much less skilled than nowdays. We also had much, much better variety of city / village maps + ladders. With all that combined, it used to be possible to do flank trips which made the battle so much more enjoyable (nothing beats 10 shielders jumping in the middle of enemy team from rooftop  8-)). And thanks to that the battles used to change place a lot more often than now.

Now most ranged are ADHD snipers who have eyes around all the time. If you try to flank you get shot instantly. Most of the maps are just open plains with hardly any cover, and ladders are gone for those few city maps that's left. Right now the only thing you can do is to stay with the big blob of a team, run around like headless chicken trying to not get shot and wait for the mindless blob to collide with the other team.

There may be no way of limiting the amount of ranged if that's what people really want to play, but a lot could be done with some map work and maybe introducing ladders back. Sure some would abuse them at first, but that could be fixed with some rules.

Man, do you not remember plate archers, or, after that, the super laser 300 wpf archers? Thank god we don't have to deal with that.

However, you touch on what I think is the real problem. It's not the archers, crossbows, and throwers (though having more than five lance throwers on the opposite team is a killer)- it's the map.

More symmetric maps designed for balance would fix a lot of this whining. More flat ground would help, too. Most of the really bad ranged rounds come from one team having more ranged and being closer to a cliff/hill that's hard to get up without being shot to death or simple hilly plains and steppe maps.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Kafein on July 07, 2013, 09:40:20 pm
Just make classes that "counter" archers stronger at countering archers. Which basically means, create something that counters archers, other than just outnumburing, because that's not a counter.

If an effective counter existed, the population would balance itself out. More archers would push people towards the class that counters them, leading to less archers.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: XyNox on July 07, 2013, 10:13:30 pm
Just make classes that "counter" archers stronger at countering archers. Which basically means, create something that counters archers, other than just outnumburing, because that's not a counter.

If an effective counter existed, the population would balance itself out. More archers would push people towards the class that counters them, leading to less archers.

Xbows, wait for archer to take a shot, click, onehit kill from a mile away, repeat. What more of a counter do you need ?
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2013, 10:21:49 pm
Xbows, wait for archer to take a shot, click, onehit kill from a mile away, repeat. What more of a counter do you need ?
If anything archers (and throwers, and lancers, and anything that can hit them while they reload while staying out of melee sidearm range) counters crossbowmen...
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2013, 10:25:08 pm
They are obviously all inhuman bundle of stickss, because I can't conceive of any other way anyone could enjoy playing ranged in this game (beyond throwing maybe). That doesn't mean I don't think they are part of the game.
Trust me, it is really fun playing ranged, sometimes ranged players play this game called target Oberyn or his horse constantly and do nothing else, trust me, it is really fun, you should try it.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Smoothrich on July 07, 2013, 10:31:27 pm

More symmetric maps designed for balance would fix a lot of this whining. More flat ground would help, too. Most of the really bad ranged rounds come from one team having more ranged and being closer to a cliff/hill that's hard to get up without being shot to death or simple hilly plains and steppe maps.

Sorry, suggested things like this lots of times (more gamey maps like Arena or similar ones that are symmetrical, flat, and have cover) and lead map person Jacko specifically said this would never happen.  They only allow maps that are "realistic" so everything is a horrible hilly plain. Thank god he's apparently leaving his position soon and finding a replacement, because he's done a horrible job. Maybe the next person will actually listen to the community and make Battle mode at least a little playable.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: polkafranzi on July 07, 2013, 11:48:15 pm
(click to show/hide)

Ok so I just speccd one round of this dead server.

I think I know why it's dead...

from 37 players:

3 ppl in spectator

1 lance cav

1 thrower

3 1h/cav

6 shielders

6 2h/polearm

8 archers

9 xbowers

off to siege it is then....
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Miwiw on July 08, 2013, 12:56:21 am
16 inf/cav
17 crossbow/archers
1 thrower

I call that balanced (if the same amount of ranged is on each team). And nothing wrong about a lower populated server. You dont need 200 ppl to have fun.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Tomas on July 08, 2013, 03:16:59 am
Just going to say it to keep up appearances :D

Limit ammo = problem solved.

Who cares if ranged dominate a fight if they can only do it for 2 minutes before running out
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Akynos on July 08, 2013, 04:37:04 am
The time when player skill was limited to combat skills is over guys, get over it.

Ranged are easy to counter if you have appropriate tactics and awareness. If you don't have a shield, don't be on the front line. Constantly move unpredictably. Get a shield or heavy armor. Use cover. Stay behind agi shielders. Sacrifice a point of PS to get shield skill. You can pick them off the ground. Stay on the front line close to your enemies, and the archers won't take the shot. Wait for the initial shooting to end. Wait for them to come to you. Sneak behind if you can. Even better, be an agi-shielder and hassle them. Remember, if the ranged aim for you, they ain't aiming for someone else. Having three archers targeting you can be advantageous if you take twice the time to die as it would take if they were to target someone else.Ranged have the lowest DPS of the game. Adapt.

Honestly I only had problems with ranged when I was alone with many archers remaining at the end of the round. Simply because my teammates weren't arsed to pay attention to their surroundings and use the basic tactics to stay alive.

Great meleeists are no longer those who play the best in melee combat. They are those who can defeat opponents no matter their class.

If the other team has more ranged, it means you have more infantry. If you are a team of defenseless of slow cans, don't wonder why you die.

Talking as a 7 gen full str tin can whose real enemy was gankers.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 08, 2013, 05:02:28 am
Stay on the front line close to your enemies, and the archers won't take the shot.
Are we playing the same mod? I believe cav will change their motto from "hitting afks, late spawners, and peasants since 2010" before the archer motto changes from "always take the shot".
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Akynos on July 08, 2013, 05:20:08 am
Are we playing the same mod? I believe cav will change their motto from "hitting afks, late spawners, and peasants since 2010" before the archer motto changes from "always take the shot".

Well fact is even if they take the shot (which I agree they sometimes do) it is much harder to hit the guy and there is always the risk of hitting a teammate. So basically in a clusterfuck it can even stand as an advantage.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 08, 2013, 05:21:28 am
Well fact is even if they take the shot (which I agree they sometimes do) it is much harder to hit the guy and there is always the risk of hitting a teammate. So basically in a clusterfuck it can even stand as an advantage.
Have some compassion ffs, think of the poor teammate, do you really wanna encourage archers to teamkill him?
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Akynos on July 08, 2013, 05:45:15 am
Have some compassion ffs, think of the poor teammate, do you really wanna encourage archers to teamkill him?

Eh? What are you saying? I'm not encouraging anyone, just stating that being in a melee clusterfuck reduces your chances of getting shot
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Rebelyell on July 08, 2013, 12:33:17 pm
16 inf/cav
17 crossbow/archers
1 thrower

I call that balanced (if the same amount of ranged is on each team). And nothing wrong about a lower populated server. You dont need 200 ppl to have fun.


screw you, after over 2 years i dont want to play on EU1 anymore, 1st time,
and I was big fan of it.
best part of it is that  then you get often most of that ranged in one team and other team cant do shit,
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Berserkadin on July 08, 2013, 01:34:21 pm
Imho, pure melee builds aren't really suited for battle anyways, except for hoplites and pikemen (not like they got a choice).
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Miwiw on July 08, 2013, 02:06:49 pm
best part of it is that  then you get often most of that ranged in one team and other team cant do shit,

That's not any player's fault and you cannot blame a player to play a class that he wants. No one blames anyone else for playing infantry either.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Joker86 on July 08, 2013, 02:45:11 pm
Imho, pure melee builds aren't really suited for battle anyways, except for hoplites and pikemen (not like they got a choice).

This leads to the real source of the problems in this topic  :wink:


Gief conquest mode!

P.S.: Treat other classes with respect and empathy.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Kafein on July 08, 2013, 11:20:50 pm
The time when player skill was limited to combat skills is over guys, get over it.

Ranged are easy to counter if you have appropriate tactics and awareness. If you don't have a shield, don't be on the front line. Constantly move unpredictably. Get a shield or heavy armor. Use cover. Stay behind agi shielders. Sacrifice a point of PS to get shield skill. You can pick them off the ground. Stay on the front line close to your enemies, and the archers won't take the shot. Wait for the initial shooting to end. Wait for them to come to you. Sneak behind if you can. Even better, be an agi-shielder and hassle them. Remember, if the ranged aim for you, they ain't aiming for someone else. Having three archers targeting you can be advantageous if you take twice the time to die as it would take if they were to target someone else.Ranged have the lowest DPS of the game. Adapt.

Honestly I only had problems with ranged when I was alone with many archers remaining at the end of the round. Simply because my teammates weren't arsed to pay attention to their surroundings and use the basic tactics to stay alive.

Great meleeists are no longer those who play the best in melee combat. They are those who can defeat opponents no matter their class.

If the other team has more ranged, it means you have more infantry. If you are a team of defenseless of slow cans, don't wonder why you die.

Talking as a 7 gen full str tin can whose real enemy was gankers.

It's all nice, but how is this "I'm going to keep telling myself I'm countering archers by hiding behind this wall" going to actually counter the archers aka kill them ? If that's what you call a counter, I'd suggest that the next patch makes archers counter shieldless infantry in exactly the same way : hiding behind a wall, not being able to avoid attacks when getting out of cover and being unable to retaliate when under attack. That sure does sound like a very effective way of countering something.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Cyranule on July 09, 2013, 01:32:54 am
Just to reiterate what's been stated in the thread - the only way to counter ranged is hiding or becoming ranged yourself. 

Yeah that sounds about right.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Thomek on July 09, 2013, 02:56:20 am
Throwing daggers.. try it. :)

4pt 100 wpf
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: San on July 09, 2013, 07:54:02 am
Only something crazy can help fix this. Reduce shield weight's effect on movement for higher shield skill above the difficulty. Sprint mode for shielding/maybe holding attack just like we have for not blocking, but it takes twice as long to come into effect. Sounds a little dumb after reading it again, but it's 2AM and it helps give shielders more of an archer counter.

Shielders were fine as a defensive force against them before the patch, but now I think archers/crossbowmen need to have something that can counter them where you don't need to be a heavy cav in high armor + shield.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: NuberT on July 09, 2013, 07:55:54 am
Where is Wookiemonsta?! We need melee monday back, so we can have fun at least 1 day a week :rolleyes:
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Akynos on July 09, 2013, 10:24:41 am
It's all nice, but how is this "I'm going to keep telling myself I'm countering archers by hiding behind this wall" going to actually counter the archers aka kill them ? If that's what you call a counter, I'd suggest that the next patch makes archers counter shieldless infantry in exactly the same way : hiding behind a wall, not being able to avoid attacks when getting out of cover and being unable to retaliate when under attack. That sure does sound like a very effective way of countering something.

Not getting killed is the first step to killing, young grasshopper.

On a serious note,one has to remember that technically, shieldless meleeists are supposed to be weak to archers. I give solutions on how to avoid getting raped by a superior enemy. I told how the gazelle can avoid the lion, and you ask me how the gazelle can kung-fu the shit out of the lion.
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Strudog on July 09, 2013, 10:40:28 am
Not getting killed is the first step to killing, young grasshopper.

On a serious note,one has to remember that technically, shieldless meleeists are supposed to be weak to archers. I give solutions on how to avoid getting raped by a superior enemy. I told how the gazelle can avoid the lion, and you ask me how the gazelle can kung-fu the shit out of the lion.

Its not a solution but delaying the inevitable
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: bagge on July 09, 2013, 12:05:45 pm
Making ranged effective while the player doesn't invest much gold either through repairs or looms is the complete opposite of how to balance ranged.

Tell me. What the fuck do you know about archery? In my statistics I got minus gold on the days I'm playing on EU1.

Dunno about Crossbows now thou. Since they increased the bolts their repairs should also be quite gay
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Smoothrich on July 09, 2013, 03:55:30 pm
Just take out the stupid ass stagger for a start, its the worst
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: polkafranzi on July 09, 2013, 05:16:36 pm
Dunno about Crossbows now thou. Since they increased the bolts their repairs should also be quite gay

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 09, 2013, 07:06:40 pm
Whichever team's melee scrum is larger and more skilled (or in a better position to over-take the enemy) is the team that wins 99.9% of the rounds.

Archers can be annoying, but I'm guessing people IRL didn't like being shot from a distance when they didn't have any ranged weapon themselves.  That's something real armies dealt with, and something you can deal with as a player in c-rpg as well.  Or you can keep running into them, and then QQ on the forums when you die.

Archers are pretty under-powered at the moment (as are horses maneuverability, and lighter horses ability to walk over more than 1 person), the problem lies with the battle game mode, not with archers or cavalry.  Nobody is forced to fight over an area of the map.  Nobody is forced to try and hold or take areas of the map (aka standing their ground).  So archers and cavalry can kite and generally play less risky and still help their team win. 

If we had a conquest battle mode, then infantry would be much more "powerful" on the battlefield, and really shine where they are supposed to, at taking and holding ground.  So if archers want to sit on a hill when the enemy infantry is putting up the flag, the archers will lose (forcing the archers and cavalry to engage the infantry, rather than what we have now where infantry either camp or die trying to walk up a hill of 10+ archers).

If it's too much to ask to implement a "conquest" game mode, then have the Master of the Flag spawn 30 seconds into the map and let people fight over it (also make it randomly spawn around the map). 

Also I agree that arrow stagger should be removed.  It should interrupt your attack if you get hit, but you shouldn't be staggered for a full second +
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: Necrorave on July 09, 2013, 07:12:09 pm
No, whiny ass bitching melee elitists who wants to nerf shit is destroying this game, so fuck off. I myself play melee btw. But I guess most melee players are 14 year old girls with a constantly bleeding pussy.

This, a thousand times this.

Most of the players here want the best gameplay experience for Themselves.

Well, this game was not made for you
It was made for all of us

Most of the people in this community will only defend and complain when they cannot do as well as they could before.  It is just like society and politics.  They will cry to take things from others, but once something is taken from them they claim it is "Unfair"

Get the fuck over it.

I am a shielder and I approve this message
Title: Re: ranged
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 09, 2013, 07:22:23 pm
I personally love seeing the ebbs and flows of the classes throughout the evolution of c-rpg.  I enjoy having to adapt to conditions on the battlefield, and what popular tactics are this month. 

I consider it somewhat like real life (or how I imagine violence and war has progressed since the dawn of man).

Guy A chooses to use violence punches the guy next to him (Guy B).
Guy B finds a stick and hits Guy A with it.
Guy A finds a rock and throws it at Guy B before Guy B is close enough to hit him with a stick.
Guy B covers a piece of wood with an animal hide and is able to protect himself from Guy A's rock.
Guy B then can throw rocks from behind his shield at Guy A.
Guy A now gets his own shield, and then finds a longer stick than Guy B has (to outreach him).
Guy B finds a buddy and now they tag team Guy A.

And then expand it to groups of people fighting (both with the types of weapons used, as well as their tactics).  I could literally type all day and night describing how I imagine the escalations happened, and how people tried to counter them.

It's a progressive escalation of tactics and violence, and you need to adapt to what the enemy is doing (their equipment, their tactics, their placement of troops, etc).  QQ on the forums is not being constructive in your adaptation of the conditions on the battlefield.  Although it has proved to work quite successfully in the past, so I suppose there is some precedence that has been set here.  So kudos to you on your lobbying efforts, but I hope they fail.