A typical "buff my class even if it's ridiculous" thread.Nudges should still be added and be strongest with 1h with no shield.
1h without shield isn't a class. It's a shielder without shield.
and if it got a buff, you wouldn't be an exquisite, exclusive gentleman anymore for playing it.Pretty much this. /thread
A typical "buff my class even if it's ridiculous" thread.
1h without shield isn't a class. It's a shielder without shield.
Keep it weak. I want to be unique !
This makes just as much sense as buffing lances used on foot.
Swashbuckling is fine balance wise, on siege it is even one of the strongest classes. If you need a buff, stop playing in 1st person.
Pretty much this. /threadI disagree
On a side note, I'd take 1h animations over 2h if I could have identical weapon stats both ways and I believe it's clear most people would as well. 2h thrust is nice, but I'd argue that in all other cases, the 1h animations are (when ignoring weapon stats), easily superior.
The only thing I would like is a two slot one-handed weapon that isn't usable with a shield, with stats comparable to a short two-handed weapon.
Pretty much this. /thread
On a side note, I'd take 1h animations over 2h if I could have identical weapon stats both ways and I believe it's clear most people would as well. 2h thrust is nice, but I'd argue that in all other cases, the 1h animations are (when ignoring weapon stats), easily superior.
There are polearms and 2h usable with and without shield, so I don't know why 1h should be an exception.
Yeah, that'd be nice, I suggest the Long Espada because noone uses it.
The overhead is hard to land
That leaves you with left swing.
I do, it's great weapon, don't touch it.
(click to show/hide)
Hiding stats of char... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:yeahh my build is unique, so i don't want people knowing it but i show that i have 147 1h WPF and 0 shield skill.
yeahh my build is unique, so i don't want people knowing it but i show that i have 147 1h WPF and 0 shield skill.
proof im 1H no shield.
Lulz, that's why 3/4 of my hits are overheads :rolleyes: As Teeth said already people suck at blocking 1h overheads, so stop spamming left and "everybody who blocks left by default" will be screwed.
There are polearms and 2h usable with and without shield, so I don't know why 1h should be an exception.Perhaps because the entire concept of a 'one handed weapon', pretty much dictates that you are always able to use a shield with it.
Actually, not really teeth. The other hand would be free to punch/grab or whatever. In warband we don't have this yet.How does being able to use your other hand to punch or grab with a one handed weapon mean that you wouldn't be able to use a shield with it?
Perhaps because the entire concept of a 'one handed weapon', pretty much dictates that you are always able to use a shield with it.Which you then denied:
Actually, not really teeth. The other hand would be free to punch/grab or whatever.Ergo, you say that you wouldn't be able to use a shield with it, because the other hand would be free to punch/grab or whatever.
I didn't deny what you said. I just said that the entire concept of one handed weapon, dictates that you can always use a shield with them; which doesn't mean all of them were designed to be used with a shield. There's nothing wrong with your argument but it is just a bit misleading given the point of view it reflects. It's same as saying "The concept of a weapon, pretty much dictates that you are always able to use an armor with it". You surely can use an armor and you mostly do if you can equip yourself with an armor before moving on to battle, but you do not need to.I can't really read 'not really' as something else than at least partly denying the statement it reacts to. I used to term 'able to' to imply that using a shield is always a possibility, I don't think that is in any way misleading and I think it is a fact. I guess we are just having a misunderstanding, so I will rephrase for clarity. :
Oh and Kafein and Bob, stop pretending that 1h animations are bad, they are amazing.
I'd take 1h animations over 2h if I could have identical weapon stats both ways and I believe it's clear most people would as well.
the entire concept of a 'one handed weapon', pretty much dictates that you are always able to use a shield with it.
my old friend
To all morons, saying "swashbuckling isn't a class" is a nonargument (from an historical perspective as well).Funny, because I judged considering historical perspective mainly. What I call a "class" is a type of warrior that really existed at that specific time. Seriously, did someone use just a onehanded sword in medieval battle? I don't think so.
Saxon, you are also cav right? Which hardly makes your k/d representative for being a swashbuckler, but that was actually exactly my k/d as a swashbuckler. Oh and Kafein and Bob, stop pretending that 1h animations are bad, they are amazing.i got to lvl 33 as cav and respeced to 1h no shield its what i always do when i reach lvl 33.
Oh here we go with the ''We're ninja, we nerf ourselves more than anyone, go us we're the best thing since sliced bread'' wanking, wondered where I'd go.No, just an example of what classes are not supposed to be as effective as other "legit" classes. Ninjas are UP, swashbuckling is UP, and it's not something that needs to be changed.
Edit: You're still a 2 hander, Swashbuckling is a thing of its own, its not a 2h, its 1h, but there's no shield, so its not a shielder either, I think there's enough differences to warrant the title of ''class'' especially since there's more people playing it now than there used to.I don't call swashbuckling a separate class because a shielder can do all the same if he spawns without shield, so the only difference is few skillpoints which is not much really.
Shielders*
Not 1h without a shield
Seriously, did someone use just a onehanded sword in medieval battle? I don't think so.
There are no 1h-no shield mechanics implemented to buff these characters.
Funny, because I judged considering historical perspective mainly. What I call a "class" is a type of warrior that really existed at that specific time. Seriously, did someone use just a onehanded sword in medieval battle? I don't think so.
Ninjas weren't participating in medieval battles either, but we're not crying for a buff, because it's our own choise to make the game harder to play, and so is swashbuckling.
I don't feel that anything NEEDS to be done to 1h without shield, especially considering that it would affect a VERY small portion of c-rpg players.So because something currently isn't being played much, changes that would increase variety and player freedom shouldn't be implemented?
Anyway, I find one-handed sans shield to be perfectly fine. The combos and feinting that you can pull off with this "class" are amazing. The low weapon weight of one-handed weapons allow for great movement speed since you aren't using a shield, meaning you can sacrifice agility for strength without moving slow as absolute cock.It's the weapon length, not the weight that makes the difference here, although shield weight truly does matter. But again, this is an advantage gained not because of an implemented mechanic meant to buff 1h+no shield, it simply comes naturally with the absence of a shield. It's equal for all shieldless melee.
The statement wasn't in reply to anything you said, I'm not sure why you'd assume it was.
Yeah, that's why I suggested there be one.
Tydeus complains about being level 35 21/24 2h and having to use mighty morningstars in strat battles because they "don't fit his build." That is all.Where build was meant to include play-style. And I'm stubborn, I don't care to adapt sometimes, even when I know it will result in increased effectiveness. Although, with the battle in question, I did adapt, I started using polearms that I had zero proficiency in and did much better. No 2her on my team was successful (unless you call almost having a 1:1 K:D successful). You have to realize that going on offense with a short weapon puts you at a disadvantage particularly when up against a cooperative and solid defense. Sure it can be done, but you need overwhelming pressure(it was raven/nh, there was little) otherwise your offense fails because you have to spend more time defending than attacking, among other things.
This makes just as much sense as buffing lances used on foot.
There is in fact an advantage to using 1h without a shield. There are different modifiers to which extent weight of a weapon slows down your movement for the 1h, 1h/2h and 2h grouped weapons. 1h has the best modifier, which means that the weight of the weapon you use affects your movement least. With 1h having very low weight and low length, which affect your movement before the modifier above kicks in, you move quite fast with just a 1h.Eh? http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/ I was actually somewhat wrong in my previous statement about weight. It would really just depend upon the comparison you're making.
The class is designed to be used with a 5-7 weight shield, remove that and you end up with a very fast class. 1h can sidestep and switch direction very fast compared to using a heavier, longer weapon of the 2h class. This is considerable to the extent that even though my preferred melee build is 21/21, for 1h without shield I went 24/18. I don't think there was much of a difference in speed between these builds, in fact footwork felt much easier to do with the swashbuckling one.
Also, blocking without a shield is instant and with a shield is not, but eh.It's not instant, it's based on weapon speed. Although I think DaveUKR recently found that an equal value of speed on a shield and a weapon does not result in the same effective block speed. I think he found that you need a higher shield speed to translate into the same effective block speed of a weapon.
There is in fact an advantage to using 1h without a shield. There are different modifiers to which extent weight of a weapon slows down your movement for the 1h, 1h/2h and 2h grouped weapons. 1h has the best modifier, which means that the weight of the weapon you use affects your movement least. With 1h having very low weight and low length, which affect your movement before the modifier above kicks in, you move quite fast with just a 1h.According to this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner's-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/), it's the other way around. Weight affects you MORE if it is a 1h. Roughly 1.5x as much as if it wasn't a 1h.
Addition to what teeth said, 1h is the best weapon in clusterfucks. Meaning you will have superb hitting power compared to shielders and better animations compared to other melee classes. The place where swashbucklers shine is clusterfucks, therefore mostly siege (and ships).
Basically, anyone playing 1h no shield would be much better off being a longsword (or even better, HBS) user.
You won't hit any better than shielders, except if you count the handful of skill points you can spare if you don't put any point in shield skill.
That's not true. I played as 2h since the release of warband, since last autumn play as 1h, and while I was pretty bad 2her I think that I'm quite okay 1h, or at least much better than 2her :wink: 1h playstyle just suits me better. And I doubt I'm the only one who's better with 1h :PYour swings are not faster, but your feints are. Shields don't block immediately, it takes time for you to "ready" the block. That's what the shields speed rating is for. So when you feint while holding a shield, you get that small added time to ready the shield while feinting added.
Not sure about that, but I always have a feeling that my swings/feints are much faster without shield than when I play as a shielder. It's also much easier to break someone's block playing without shield.
That's not true. I played as 2h since the release of warband, since last autumn play as 1h, and while I was pretty bad 2her I think that I'm quite okay 1h, or at least much better than 2her :wink: 1h playstyle just suits me better. And I doubt I'm the only one who's better with 1h :P
Not sure about that, but I always have a feeling that my swings/feints are much faster without shield than when I play as a shielder. It's also much easier to break someone's block playing without shield.
So because something currently isn't being played much, changes that would increase variety and player freedom shouldn't be implemented?
It's the weapon length, not the weight that makes the difference here, although shield weight truly does matter. But again, this is an advantage gained not because of an implemented mechanic meant to buff 1h+no shield, it simply comes naturally with the absence of a shield. It's equal for all shieldless melee.
Although I think DaveUKR recently found that an equal value of speed on a shield and a weapon does not result in the same effective block speed. I think he found that you need a higher shield speed to translate into the same effective block speed of a weapon.
According to this (http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner's-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/), it's the other way around. Weight affects you MORE if it is a 1h. Roughly 1.5x as much as if it wasn't a 1h.
So a 1.0 1h slows you down as much as a 1.5 2h/pole, a 2.0 1h as much as a 3.0 2h/pole.
You won't hit any better than shielders, except if you count the handful of skill points you can spare if you don't put any point in shield skill. As someone without a shield and with low reach, the only way you can deal with multiple opponents is by using your movement speed, either to buy reach, either to put one behind the other. In a real clusterfuck, you'll no doubt have allies around blocking your way which will lead to your death. Also your right swing is useless if you have anybody on your right, which is pretty damn always in clusterfucks. To say that 1h no shield are the best in clusterfucks in pretty much the opposite of the truth. 2h and poles do better because they kill things and shielders do better because they got a shield. The place where this "class" really shines the most is duels.I think you are once again painting a much grimmer picture of swashbuckling than reality. If you really dislike your own class this much, it is indeed time for a respec. My one reason to play a swashbuckler, I was pretty much the only one in EU when I did, is that fighting as a swashbuckler feels great. There is something about the way 1h blocks, the posture when fighting and the animations that makes it feel so elegant and fun. Dancing around with the good movement speed, leftswinging and overheading people in a clusterfuck is extremely good as a 1h. I remember going on siege for the first time and as a level 28 swashbuckler in money making gear I outperformed any of my other builds. Maybe the weapon stats plead against it, but I think the longsworder/swashbuckler comparison goes beyond stats, I simply love 1h animations. The left swing is extremely overrated and both the overhead (since the turn rate tweak) and right swing are extremely underrated.
It's not instant, it's based on weapon speed. Although I think DaveUKR recently found that an equal value of speed on a shield and a weapon does not result in the same effective block speed. I think he found that you need a higher shield speed to translate into the same effective block speed of a weapon.What, so it is harder to block with a flamberge than a bastard sword? In my experience there is no difference whatsoever.
What, so it is harder to block with a flamberge than a bastard sword? In my experience there is no difference whatsoever.Yes, there is a difference. And, as DaveUKR pointed out, wpf also increases your block speed.
You won't hit any better than shielders, except if you count the handful of skill points you can spare if you don't put any point in shield skill. As someone without a shield and with low reach, the only way you can deal with multiple opponents is by using your movement speed, either to buy reach, either to put one behind the other. In a real clusterfuck, you'll no doubt have allies around blocking your way which will lead to your death. Also your right swing is useless if you have anybody on your right, which is pretty damn always in clusterfucks. To say that 1h no shield are the best in clusterfucks in pretty much the opposite of the truth. 2h and poles do better because they kill things and shielders do better because they got a shield. The place where this "class" really shines the most is duels.
What, so it is harder to block with a flamberge than a bastard sword? In my experience there is no difference whatsoever.
I think you are once again painting a much grimmer picture of swashbuckling than reality. If you really dislike your own class this much, it is indeed time for a respec. My one reason to play a swashbuckler, I was pretty much the only one in EU when I did, is that fighting as a swashbuckler feels great. There is something about the way 1h blocks, the posture when fighting and the animations that makes it feel so elegant and fun. Dancing around with the good movement speed, leftswinging and overheading people in a clusterfuck is extremely good as a 1h. I remember going on siege for the first time and as a level 28 swashbuckler in money making gear I outperformed any of my other builds. Maybe the weapon stats plead against it, but I think the longsworder/swashbuckler comparison goes beyond stats, I simply love 1h animations. The left swing is extremely overrated and both the overhead (since the turn rate tweak) and right swing are extremely underrated.
Nudges are intriguing in that they open the door for several possibilities. I wonder if Urist can be convinced to take another look at these.Wasn't too hard to convince Urist and he handled it rather quickly too. Initial testing results are satisfactory as well. Basically the nudges work like what's on rageball for shieldless melee, except only for 1h no shield. Which means they have a lot of utility, but they won't really increase your killing potential. One of the nudges has knockdown against backpeddlers, but if you successfully get the nudge off the nudge animation extends nearly until they stand up. This way you can't really use any of them to get a free hit like you do with kicks.
Where do I sign up to test those nudges?
Where do I sign up to test those nudges?As I said, they're just the Rageball nudges. Anyone can join rageball and play around with the nudges there. Rageball isn't battle/siege though, so we're testing on those servers ourselves, first. Unlike most things, where beta servers get patched with this first and then if we like where it's at it gets put on the other servers, this doesn't actually require a server patch(at least not yet). Urist would still have to do a few things for it to be ready though, so just because I said it doesn't require a server patch, doesn't mean other work isn't in need of being done(it's also true that things could change that require a server patch for it.)
You can test nudges on me any time, big boy. No need to sign up.
As I said, they're just the Rageball nudges. Anyone can join rageball and play around with the nudges there. Rageball isn't battle/siege though, so we're testing on those servers ourselves, first. Unlike most things, where beta servers get patched with this first and then if we like where it's at it gets put on the other servers, this doesn't actually require a server patch(at least not yet). Urist would still have to do a few things for it to be ready though, so just because I said it doesn't require a server patch, doesn't mean other work isn't in need of being done(it's also true that things could change that require a server patch for it.)
I'm just a mere item balancer, I don't do any coding. But there's one thing I can say; ETA: December 2010.
On a side note, I'd take 1h animations over 2h if I could have identical weapon stats both ways and I believe it's clear most people would as well. 2h thrust is nice, but I'd argue that in all other cases, the 1h animations are (when ignoring weapon stats), easily superior.
What does 1h right swing have over 2h right swing? 2h right swing has the same reach bonus but a MUCH bigger sweetspot.
It's way more deceiving than a 2h right swing. I use it quite a lot with my 1h char and when people think they have the reach to double attack me with a long 2h or polearm they get a right swing to the face.
I like how the best thing anyone can ever say about the 1h thrust and right swing is "they suck so much that you surprise people when you actually land one".
What does 1h right swing have over 2h right swing? 2h right swing has the same reach bonusI'd say 1h right swing has a much bigger reach bonus. Using a 102 length 1h, I dare to play the range game with 120 length 2h because my right swing seems to at least be about similar in reach, excluding the derp 2h stab.
I'd say 1h right swing has a much bigger reach bonus. Using a 102 length 1h, I dare to play the range game with 120 length 2h because my right swing seems to at least be about similar in reach, excluding the derp 2h stab.
Effective reach on 102 length 1h sword, right swing=121cmFirst of all. These values have always been complete crap. Second of all, this means that the 1h right swing reach bonus is 19 and the 2h right swing reach bonus is 13, which means 1h right swing has a bigger reach bonus. The scenario is not hypothetical, 2h do not initiate a stab everytime they get out of your reach. They simply do not. 1h right swing is an effective tool against a 2h, because they suck at estimating how long and fast it is. Which greatly depends on your movement and angle, by the way.
Effective reach on 120 length 2h sword, right swing=133cm
If you are outreaching them, it's because your timing is superior, not the animation. This scenario is hypothetical anyway, because every 2h user with a stab option will open with it.
That's not what I mean. They underestimate the length of it, and that can be a great weapon when used right. You can still use it well up close and wiggling it is, when done well, probably one of the best ways to get through someone's defense