From this time on, the North-South relations will be entering the state of war and all issues raised between the North and the South will be handled accordinglyhttp://live.reuters.com/Event/North_Korea
Interesting.
I'm not really an expert when it comes to NK, but didn't they provocate like this all the time during their existence?
Sure, this might be different.
I fully believe the North Korean military would depose Kim Jong Un in a heartbeat if he ever did any actions that would jeopardize all the sweet defense contracts, wasteful spending, and military excesses/comfortable lifestyles for officers and generals that they got going on in North Korea.
All the rhetoric to the professional, military/ruling class of NK probably just means big bonuses to their paychecks and more money at their pet projects. Jong's father seemed to also understand how to get sweet Rhetoric 4 Cash from the west/China too by drumming up bullshit, backing down, then waiting for the international aid to help fill their coffers. Seems like his son is incompetent at being corrupt so far.
What I don't personally understand is how can states develop nuclear weaponry in "secret bases" without all spy satellite services of the planet being aware and able to eliminate those sites.You can have the best satellite in the world but it is not going to spot anything going on underground or under a roof. Even then someone needs to actually be looking at every inch of the planet. Besides, even if you were able to uncover every secret nuclear base. Who is going to eliminate them? North Korea have been boasting about their nuclear program for a while, economic sanctions have been severe, but nobody feels like invading the country. It wouldn't even get cleared within the UN either, sovereignty is still regarded as absolute by a lot of countries. Even if the UN would allow an intervention, there is still the enormous convential army that North Korea still retains.
You can have the best satellite in the world but it is not going to spot anything going on underground or under a roof. Even then someone needs to actually be looking at every inch of the planet. Besides, even if you were able to uncover every secret nuclear base. Who is going to eliminate them? North Korea have been boasting about their nuclear program for a while, economic sanctions have been severe, but nobody feels like invading the country. It wouldn't even get cleared within the UN either, sovereignty is still regarded as absolute by a lot of countries. Even if the UN would allow an intervention, there is still the enormous convential army that North Korea still retains.
If you are willing to live in complete isolation, you can basically do whatever you want inside your country.
I watched a NK documentary a year a go. A guy with a spycam went there as a tourist and recorded quite a bit. Man those computers in NK were kids learned programming...huge CRT(had to edit this, made a silly mistake) monitors with like 16bit screens and other stuff. After really watching that docshow I dont really take NK seriuslly at all. The whole place looked like it was 40 years behind from the rest of the world and everything that didnt, was just for show to let the Westerners know how awesome they are. Every person who worked there was like someone out of a Mr. Bean show. Streets were practically empty and there were people working in out of town shops who didnt probably get a single visitor in 3 months.
(click to show/hide)
To be honest I dont get the logic of the ruling family in NK. Un's and Il's etc. I assume they know that they are keeping their people as prisoners, compared to how the rest of the world is living. If one day the people in NK really will be free and see that their old dictators held them like animals for many generators they will burn their history and every bit of what is left of the dictators legacy, no matter how long it lasts, will be eventually washed away.Everything will eventually be washed away, you live when you live, when you're dead who gives a fuck whether you're struck from the records of history.
My point is, the USA could very well obliterate NK nuclear facilities (possibly using nuclear missiles), if other countries in the region approve. Even the 5th land army can't defend anything against missiles. I don't believe it is that easy to hide secret bases. How do you hide trucks etc ? Also images can be analysed automatically, which means looking at every square inch is actually possible.The conditionality you provide for the USA being able to obliterate nuclear facilities is the main problem precisely, very few countries would approve of using force within another country's border. Sovereignty is still unconditional for a lot of countries and especially for countries like Russia and China. Not the USA or any other country is willing to take the bad rep for doing such a thing. And that is just talking about regular missiles, nuclear missiles are not even a possibility.
Besides, modern conventional war is all about air anyway. Note that I'm not talking about guerilla here.
Finally, NK doesn't live in complete autarcy. They rely on external help for food mostly, and still export missiles (that is arguably the only export industry in NK).
Something interesting to think about is what would the international community do if a disaster similar to the Haiti earthquake happened to NK right now.
My point is, the USA could very well obliterate NK nuclear facilities (possibly using nuclear missiles), if other countries in the region approve. Even the 5th land army can't defend anything against missiles. I don't believe it is that easy to hide secret bases. How do you hide trucks etc ? Also images can be analysed automatically, which means looking at every square inch is actually possible.May I remind you of the fake proofs of WMD which included sat-pics causing quite some "irritations" in Iraq... :wink:
Besides, modern conventional war is all about air anyway. Note that I'm not talking about guerilla here. Interesting article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People%27s_Air_Force also lol @ this :knowing that these people probably knew their family were hostages of the regime.(click to show/hide)
Finally, NK doesn't live in complete autarcy. They rely on external help for food mostly, and still export missiles (that is arguably the only export industry in NK).
Something interesting to think about is what would the international community do if a disaster similar to the Haiti earthquake happened to NK right now.
The conditionality you provide for the USA being able to obliterate nuclear facilities is the main problem precisely, very few countries would approve of using force within another country's border. Sovereignty is still unconditional for a lot of countries and especially for countries like Russia and China. Not the USA or any other country is willing to take the bad rep for doing such a thing. And that is just talking about regular missiles, nuclear missiles are not even a possibility.
If you put a nuclear base in a mining facility, who is going to see what goes on in there? Who is going to see the difference between trucks carrying iron ore and enriched uranium? Then there is also the fact that any country is allowed to use and produce nuclear energy and that any country is allowed to produce missiles. You can't bomb a country for doing any of those things and the link between the two is hard to establish. Case and point Iraq and Pakistan.
It think it is well possible to hide such a facility and it is also possible to make such a facility impervious to air assaults even with nuclear missiles. To protect from radiation you only need 60 cm of concrete. If a country is able to produce nuclear bombs, they are surely able to protect them from air assaults. You do in fact need a ground assault or some covert ops operation to take them down. Furthermore facilities will be spread out and there is not any guarantee that the destruction of the facilities will do anything more than slowing them down a little.
I didn't state that North Korea lives in complete autarky, they are willing to though. They don't let any amount of economic sanction stop them in their military pursuits. They do not live in complete autarky because the international community does not want the Nortk-Koreans to starve, but sanctioning is still severe.
May I remind you of the fake proofs of WMD which included sat-pics causing quite some "irritations" in Iraq... :wink:
Step one: Make worldpolice USA send 5 fully loaded carriers to the west.
Step two: Give Kim one chance to fuck off.
Step three: Bomb those fucking friends away with the power of a thousand bombers 'murica fuck yeah!.
Im not totally in favor of nuclear war, or really any sort of war. But frankly this is how it will turn out eventually. A country like NK will never simply back down. They will be threatening the world with their crap for decades to come. Its only a matter of time till they completely loose their mind and fire first, or till World simply has had enough from their shit and blows them to oblivion. Even if NK peacefully surrendered and lost dictatorship, it wouldnt still be a win. Than South-Korea would be the one feeding all those millions of people and educating their brainwashed minds to what the world really looks like and how it really works. Would still destroy SK-s decades of achived hard work.
Reunification would hurt SK way, way more than German reunification hurt West Germany. The disparity between the two is enormous. And in any war scenario I've read of it seems Seoul would be at best heavily hit, at worst completely destroyed. I don't think SK is willing to sacrifice millions of dead and displaced in a war for the priviledge of subsidizing a massively poor region half as big in population as itself. Not to mention NKoreans wouldn't exactly embrace their kinship with their SK counterparts when they have just been involved in a war of "eradication" that killed and displaced millions of their own as well.
Well, the industrial zone is still open. No batphone, but the bridge is working. :wink:
Step one: Make worldpolice USA send 5 fully loaded carriers to the west.
Step two: Give Kim one chance to fuck off.
Step three: Bomb those fucking friends away with the power of a thousand bombers 'murica fuck yeah!.
I more or less agree with this, except for total war being inevitable. the US and SK having any sort of influence on NK internal reform is almost impossible, but that doesn't mean NK is totally immune to external influence. China is obviously the best bet to influence NK to open up to certain limited aspects of "free" and "capitalistic societies", if only for the economic, diplomatic and military benefits, i.e the same reasons China opened up. The idea that NK has to do a complete 180 and become a clone of SK for the war to be "won" is obviouly a western perspective.Actually, they'd get lots of benefits, no more 'demilitarized zones'. No need for millions of troops and equipment along their border. Mobilized military costs quite a bit. Take away the border and you open tons of opportunities for business to expand from the south to the north. South Korean businesses would benefit from more workers, business, and trade. Contempt? It's not like a war between N. & S. Korea would make history, and surely no more contempt than they have for each other now. Also, you're basing the destructiveness of a war between these two countries on speculation. You're blowing the ideological differences between the two nations out of proportion, letting it affect your judgment when it comes to determining whether the two could unify as 'Korea'. Between private and public investment in North Korea, they would become more prosperous, at least more than they are now ($2000 per capita?). South Korea would get rich off of their capital.
And anyways the obliteration of the NK regime by military means is beneficial to no one, especially SK. On a similar thread in TW forums I posted this and stand by it:
There is virtually no contempt between north and south koreans (the common people, anyways). I've been to Korea, and most people (north AND south) desperately want reunification, and are deeply effected by the status of a divided Korea and a divided national identity -- even though its been so long.
Amid all this speculation, we should remember that China has a treaty with NK to help defend it should it ever come under attack. If USA decides to move carriers in and bomb them, they will have awakened the sleeping dragon. (Dejavu - anyone remember how the 1st Korean war ended?)
Unless, of course, China decides to ignore the mutual defense treaty. I'm not sure how that would look to its other allies though.
you're basing the destructiveness of a war between these two countries on speculation.
No, I'm basing it on every single war scenario/game that has ever been developped concerning a potential war with NK, whether it is from US or SK sources (NK and Chinese sources are obviously not accessible). This might be "speculation", but it's speculation from people who have way more information than any layman and experience in modern war. You're basing your opinion that a war with NK wouldn't result in extreme misery for both sides involved on what exactly? Wishfull thinking? Most of what I've asserted would be obvious to anyone that has even slightly researched the military situation. It isn't a mindblowing revelation, it's the status quo since the end of the Korean war and the reason it hasn't re-errupted since the "armistice". Here's one of many, many links explaining the situation: http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-dossiers/north-korean-dossier/north-koreas-weapons-programmes-a-net-asses/the-conventional-military-balance-on-the-kore/
As for their ideological differences being overblown, that doesn't even dignify an answer. They couldn't be more diametrically opposed. The only thing they agree on is that they want a reunification, and even that is becoming a less popular option with every generation, especially in SK.
If the reunification happens by peaceful means, Korea could become an economy on par with Japan at the very least, so obviously it would be beneficial for both north and south in the long run. The idea though that the NK military and the political system behind it can just be swatted away like some annoying mosquito is so far beyond the realm of reason it can only have originated from someone with barely passable knowledge of the military and political realities. If it was so simple it would have happened already. Obviously it hasn't. Why do you think that is?
Millions wouldn't die, by the way. And "every single war scenario/game that as ever been developed"...puhleeze.
1. Refer to long-winded report
2. If someone contradicts or persists in their opinion, ask "DID U EVEN READ THAT THING FROM EARLIER?"
3. Insult
4. ?????
5. Success
It's not that I necessarily contradict your view that North Korea could wage war, rather, I think they would wage war and then lose. But, God, who knows! Millions is hyperbole, brah. Good luck with all those simulated military scenarios, too. For myself, I grew out of playing Harpoon and Risk.
Haha yes, military scenarios are just games, obviously, and reflect nothing of reality. I'm sure people could use your amazing ability to determine military balances of power by inventing them wholesale at the Pentagon. Who needs to study military history or factor in things like the arsenal of NK, geography, demographics, politics, etc?
Who knows? Well, maybe the people who's job it is to know these things? You know, the people who are infinitely more informed than you and can manage to read a "long winded report" (lol) without getting distracted by shiny objects? But yeah "brah", keep defending your ignorant opinion, that you reached by...what sources again? The voices in your head? I'm sure they are more trustworthy than military analyses by experts that you are too lazy to read, in case it gets in the way of your malformed, vague bullshit.
I can see the next call of duty forming already
South-Korea is a pretty wealthy country right now. And I think you dont understand the extent of the issue here. You do realise that NK has a population of 24 million people? Most of those people are starving, in consentration camps, trained to do nothing but hate westerners their whole life, know absoulutely nothing about the world outside. And everything outside Pyongyang in NK is basically a wasteland. So tell me how is feeding, building livingspaces, making new jobs, educating 24 million people at once a beneficial boost to South-Korean economy? It wouldnt pay off even in 30 years. You dont give poor 3rd world countries people a loaf of bread and a suit and say "GO DO BUISNESS NOW!"(click to show/hide)
You dont give poor 3rd world countries people a loaf of bread and a suit and say "GO DO BUISNESS NOW!"
Nothing wrong with being unbounded?(click to show/hide)
I can see the next call of duty forming already
Hah, yeah....which is the most realistic part ever in C&C :D
Homefront did this theme already though just in an invasion style, but I wonder why it wasn't mass exploited yet.
Or make them an RTS faction. I wonder why China got so mad at C&C Generals. They called the game a bad representation of China bla bla bla.
Thing is they were fucking badass in that game. From music to units, everything. Oh, maybe the hackers stealing $ from the internet en masse to gain you credits.. :lol:
Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. I suppose pulling shit straight out of your ass is not "speculation", as opposed to actually having credible and legitimate sources. Did you even read the link I provided? Did you try to research anything at all on the subject? Obviously not. Spouting vague generalities is easier I guess.
Unbelievable that people can still be so cocky and ignorant about war when literally every instance of war of this nature in the past 50 years was an incredible waste of life and usually strategic failures for countries like America.
this is disturbing
No person, educated in the western world, can in any possible way believe in the current politics/propagande done by North Korea.
North Korea's infrastructure will be blown to hell, and they certainly will not be a match to USA airpower and strategic flexibility, but the exact same can be said about Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. All wars we handled terribly. Unbelievable that people can still be so cocky and ignorant about war when literally every instance of war of this nature in the past 50 years was an incredible waste of life and usually strategic failures for countries like America.Vietnam maybe not so much, but Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be called failures on a strategic level. Al Qaeda has been pretty much destroyed and Iraq have both been conquered in a matter of weeks with very few losses on the U.S. side. Strategic level is the level of generals and other military commanders, and they did pretty well. The failure is political as in they fail to build a legimitate new state from the ashes of the old regimes the U.S. removed. Which is no small task in itself, building institutions that are legitimate and sturdy in countries that are basically two centuries behind, but as an outsider it is nearly impossible.
You´d be very, very surprised.Would you say the same if you lived in Seoul, within the sights of NK artillery divisions? :lol:
What I think about the NK Situation can be concluded in 2 letters: BS
NK´s army is no threat to pretty much any country in their reach and the Nuclear bombs they´ve been testing are not even half as strong as the bombs that have been thrown over Hiroshima and Nagasaki(Which were, compared to modern Nuclear bombs, rather weak).This basically means they could destroy a few cities at best.
NK has no chance of winning if they resort to military action, rendering this whole provocation bullshit an utter farce.Dogs who bark dont bite.
Vietnam maybe not so much, but Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be called failures on a strategic level. Al Qaeda has been pretty much destroyed and Iraq have both been conquered in a matter of weeks with very few losses on the U.S. side. Strategic level is the level of generals and other military commanders, and they did pretty well. The failure is political as in they fail to build a legimitate new state from the ashes of the old regimes the U.S. removed. Which is no small task in itself, building institutions that are legitimate and sturdy in countries that are basically two centuries behind, but as an outsider it is nearly impossible.
The political side and rebuilding in the case of a North Korea invasion would however be handled by South Korea, which might enjoy support from the North Koreans and would allow the Americans to take their hands off after doing what they do good, shock and awe.
countries that are basically two centuries behind
Would you say the same if you lived in Seoul, within the sights of NK artillery divisions? :lol:
Yep.The facts stay the same, you know.I highly doubt there will be actual fighting action, and if there was, it would be over quickly.Quickly for you, as you get blown to shits by their arty.
Vietnam maybe not so much, but Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be called failures on a strategic level. Al Qaeda has been pretty much destroyed and Iraq have both been conquered in a matter of weeks with very few losses on the U.S. side. Strategic level is the level of generals and other military commanders, and they did pretty well. The failure is political as in they fail to build a legimitate new state from the ashes of the old regimes the U.S. removed. Which is no small task in itself, building institutions that are legitimate and sturdy in countries that are basically two centuries behind, but as an outsider it is nearly impossible.
The political side and rebuilding in the case of a North Korea invasion would however be handled by South Korea, which might enjoy support from the North Koreans and would allow the Americans to take their hands off after doing what they do good, shock and awe.
Quickly for you, as you get blown to shits by their arty.
The unconventional drone attacks have greatly suppressed organization of terrorist groups in the Pakistani frontier, but they are operating as powerful and probably more successful then ever in regions across North Africa. Syria, for example, the "opposition" there is basically "Al-Queda" or at least they are the most powerful faction making up the resistance.
We 100 percent lost in Afghanistan, literally defeated by the Taliban everywhere except the capital city and a small ring around it. The rest is Taliban controlled, and they only got more territory the longer we fought. No matter what we "liberated" the Taliban took it back the moment we left. Just not enough troops by us.
Also we "destroyed" the Iraqi army because most Ba'athists went into the civilian population and managed to terrorize the population and create unstability for the past decade nearly unopposed. We just didn't have enough troops to accomplish anything. We never have.
To be honest afghanistan is the americans own fault. Soviets had it quite under control thanks to their superior equipment, but then the genius US Government got the idea to support afghanistan with better weapons (rocket launchers, etc) that - unlike the AK the afghans had - could bring down russian helicopters.
Without the americans interfering afghanistan could still be under control.
To be honest afghanistan is the americans own fault. Soviets had it quite under control thanks to their superior equipment, but then the genius US Government got the idea to support afghanistan with better weapons (rocket launchers, etc) that - unlike the AK the afghans had - could bring down russian helicopters.
Without the americans interfering afghanistan could still be under control.
We 100 percent lost in Afghanistan, literally defeated by the Taliban everywhere except the capital city and a small ring around it. The rest is Taliban controlled, and they only got more territory the longer we fought. No matter what we "liberated" the Taliban took it back the moment we left. Just not enough troops by us.