cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Andy on March 19, 2013, 02:31:57 am
Title: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2013, 02:31:57 am
I don't see why people are hating on the new stakes. Archers and crossbow men finally have a feasable defense against cav, and defenders can use it to funnel attackers in siege. I, for one, love the new spikes.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 19, 2013, 02:50:36 am
People hate new things, especially when they just come out and people do not have a chance to properly adapt or devs to tweak 'em.
That is why.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Rebelyell on March 19, 2013, 03:09:28 am
I love that
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Shaksie on March 19, 2013, 03:09:44 am
I think they need more use, like damage people that walk on them or something. I've not tried them to be honest, it sounds like a great idea but imo it sounds like it could use more features.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: karasu on March 19, 2013, 03:24:41 am
It's always scary the first step out of comfort zone.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: TurmoilTom on March 19, 2013, 03:28:30 am
I would prefer steak, to be honest.
A good ol' Filet Mignon with a baked potato on the side would really hit the spot.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Shemaforash on March 19, 2013, 03:28:48 am
I'll just leave this here
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Weren on March 19, 2013, 03:38:54 am
Best thing to happen to this mod. Mod is once again alive and kicking cav ass.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Wolfsblood on March 19, 2013, 03:49:16 am
i like, cept for the fps drop, but thats cuase i have a shitty laptop :(
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Jarold on March 19, 2013, 04:33:31 am
coming from mr satellite internet? enjoy 900 ping nub? :D
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: obitus on March 19, 2013, 04:55:24 am
its impossible to tell map stakes from deployed stakes. all map stakes should be removed, as well as all the fake horses.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Nehvar on March 19, 2013, 05:22:32 am
I like the stakes but I also really hate horses. I might be biased.
(Can we get a new animation where the rider flies from the saddle to be impaled on the stakes?)
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Dach on March 19, 2013, 05:22:57 am
Overall great addition! :D
Small tweak needed still... either put them at 2 slot (maybe even 3 slot, compared to siege shield....) or reduce the lenght in half.
Also I got nothing about the auto-kill horse is front, but it should'nt work until the pike are completly deployed!
Just happened to me, my horse die in the middle of nowhere... in the split second I'm falling down i'm seeing spike coming up from the ground.... bullshit! :lol: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Kelugarn on March 19, 2013, 06:01:23 am
Good addition, just needs some tweaks. I do like how I can throw them down and trap players in them mid battle to cause even more havoc.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Jarold on March 19, 2013, 06:07:46 am
Give them a weight of 60.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Azlanek on March 19, 2013, 07:04:15 am
Yes! More things to laugh at. Seems like a good addition.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: obitus on March 19, 2013, 07:20:40 am
nah its just going to make teams and players camp more, like the old ladder days.
they should take up more slots.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Zaren on March 19, 2013, 07:51:11 am
Stakes are amazing......finally a feasible cav defense for archers and those guys...Though they do have the problem of killing ANY cav as soon as the cav touches the stake(friendly or enemy)
I propose that it matter on the speed the cav hits the stake
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Paul on March 19, 2013, 08:00:49 am
Ozin demanded horse blood for his creation, so the insta kill for this patch. Maybe he lets me do a more sophisticated approach to damaging horses or does it himself next patch. I think some function of horse speed at the moment of intersecting with the stake prop, horse armor, horse anim, maybe riding skill and positioning. One the other hand, math - not even once. So we just might throw some dices instead.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Penguin on March 19, 2013, 08:10:07 am
Ozin demanded horse blood for his creation, so the insta kill for this patch. Maybe he lets me do a more sophisticated approach to damaging horses or does it himself next patch. I think some function of horse speed at the moment of intersecting with the stake prop, horse armor, horse anim, maybe riding skill and positioning. One the other hand, math - not even once. So we just might throw some dices instead.
Instant kill seems fine to me. Cav shouldn't complain, and if I had it my way it would be instant kill for riding full speed into any immovable objects like walls and trees, not just stakes.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Arathian on March 19, 2013, 08:18:51 am
Give hitting stakes a normal, standard damage then make it HEAVILY dependent on speed. Imagine it like a reverse bump.
Also, for the love if god, don't allow the stakes to kill until they are fully deployed.
Awesome addition. Love it.
edit: apparently, steaks are something you eat, steaks are something you impale stuff with. Woops.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: En_Dotter on March 19, 2013, 08:56:11 am
I like the concept of stakes but they cover a large area for one slot item. Either increase slots requirement (3 imo) or reduce size by 2 or 3 times.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Banok on March 19, 2013, 09:29:03 am
I think alot of it is because horses insta-die even at 1 mph, but im guessing thats a coding limitation rather than intentional so it will probably get balanced via upkeep or some such.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2013, 09:53:39 am
That would be an excellent moment to buff the heavy glance !
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: KingBread on March 19, 2013, 11:32:30 am
Superb idea best patch need adjustment. Mod alive.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: agweber on March 19, 2013, 02:59:38 pm
Honestly I think this is a better solution than just increasing slots. If you leave the slots at one and then increase the weight, than these are still feasible defense mechanisms for archers and what-not, but it should be obvious that an archer is going to have a hell of a time carrying a bundle of sticks on their back up the side of the mountain to their camping position.
Also, on top of all of the other threads complaining about this, do make a maximum per team or per player to be placed in a given round.
Just my two cents.
tldr; slots is a balancing mechanism, weight is a realism mechanism. gogo weight increase.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2013, 03:06:05 pm
Honestly I think this is a better solution than just increasing slots. If you leave the slots at one and then increase the weight, than these are still feasible defense mechanisms for archers and what-not, but it should be obvious that an archer is going to have a hell of a time carrying a bundle of sticks on their back up the side of the mountain to their camping position.
Also, on top of all of the other threads complaining about this, do make a maximum per team or per player to be placed in a given round.
Just my two cents.
tldr; slots is a balancing mechanism, weight is a realism mechanism. gogo weight increase.
cRPG, I present you :
Someone intentionally typing "bundle of sticks"
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 19, 2013, 03:32:45 pm
I think you meant unintentionally? Even if it was intentionally, it was a good pun.
Also, 1 slot seems awfully low for this...I think it should be 2 slot like a siege shield, or if it's 1 slot, reduce the size in half.
Also LOL at the insta kill on plated cav walking as slow as possible into it.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Penitent on March 19, 2013, 05:34:31 pm
This should definitely be 2 slot. Also, buff siege shield.
Yes, its a good defense to protect archers from cav, but that doesn't mean that archers should necessarily be the ones to carry them. Make them 2 slot and use some teamwork!
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 19, 2013, 05:35:24 pm
Haha nice pipe dream, you think your average melee player is going to carry a set of spikes for archers? They're trying to run as fast as possible to the enemy infantry horde...
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Penitent on March 19, 2013, 05:40:16 pm
Haha nice pipe dream, you think your average melee player is going to carry a set of spikes for archers? They're trying to run as fast as possible to the enemy infantry horde...
Well I always carry a siege shield when I can :oops:
I think 1-slot spikes can be abused. If a team or a clan coordinated, they could build some kind of crazy super fort and break the map. They are very large and durable compared to siege shields.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: naduril on March 19, 2013, 05:50:31 pm
Whose going to take a two slot item with one use per round that can be killed in three hits and will only generate a cav kill against the unaware?
I use seige shields, and they don't even effect cav. They are super useful, cover less area, and die in TWO hits.
The point is not to get a cav kill, but to deny an area to cav. They are bigger than siege shields and more durable. THEY ALSO BLOCK ARROWS. Why would they take less slots?
They can also be used to funnel infantry or create a choke point. They can create a "fort" area. They can be super useful in Siege game mode, and really really helpful in battle.
If they take just 1 slot, there will be people who take 4 of them (like happened this morning) and basically re-design the map, which is kind of OP. Imagine if 2 or 3 people did it...
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 19, 2013, 06:13:54 pm
Whose going to take a two slot item with one use per round that can be killed in three hits and will only generate a cav kill against the unaware?
People who are trying to stop cavalry rushes? I assume infantry with an extra 2 slots would take them to stop cavalry charges. The same people who take siege shields to stop projectiles from hitting them or teammates?
1 slot is not enough for the amount of space these take up, or the damage they do to cavalry.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 19, 2013, 06:19:40 pm
I use seige shields, and they don't even effect cav. They are super useful, cover less area, and die in TWO hits.
The point is not to get a cav kill, but to deny an area to cav. They are bigger than siege shields and more durable. Why would they take less slots?
They can also be used to funnel infantry or create a choke point. They can create a "fort" area. They can be super useful in Siege game mode, and really really helpful in battle.
If they take just 1 slot, there will be people who take 4 of them (like happened this morning) and basically re-design the map, which is kind of OP. Imagine if 2 or 3 people did it...
What kind of infantry are getting funneled by these destructible obstacles? The mentally impaired? Also, I don't think you should be judging how they're used based on the first day they're introduced. This is exactly the kind of reaction they were hoping to get from people.
Am I misunderstanding what a siege shield is? I don't think they're meant to prevent cavalry charges. They're protection against arrows and they last a lot longer than two hits, and are also never taken.
I assume infantry with an extra 2 slots would take them to stop cavalry charges.
I'd like infantry players that regularly enter battle with two free slot to post now. Thank you.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Duster on March 19, 2013, 06:30:39 pm
Literally every dedicated 2h or 4d pole arm guy will have 2 extra slots....
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Penitent on March 19, 2013, 06:32:03 pm
Infantry are funneled because they are being threatened by other infantry. They can either stop and destroy the destructable, or engage the enemy threatening them. Here's an example of how seige shields and stakes can be used (yes, siege shields can funnel infantry too, especially at a doorway.)
TOP VIEW O = Opposing team member F = Friendly Team Member X = seige shield or especially stakes
O O X OX X F X F
Using such an arrangement, the Friendlies, who are outnumbered, can avoid being flanked. Sure, the enemies can stop and kill the destructables, but MOST OF THE TIME they do not and try to get a kill instead. Even if they do stop and attack the stakes/shields, they are wasting precious seconds and losing their number advantage. Same thing if they go around.
Yes, siege shields can be used to deny cav an area. They can be set up at a choke point, OR just put up to guard the flank of an archer.
Here is an example of how siege shields can be used to funnel enemies at door ways.
O = Opposing team member F = Friendly Team Member X = seige shield or stakes _ = Walls / = Door
O O ______O _______ / X F FX F
The door is a natural choke point, but using siege shields can extend the choke point and funnel players. The enemy players, if they want to go through the door, have no choice but to A) stop and attack the seige shield (and get struck), or B) enter and go to the left (their right) where more friendly players wait. Not a lot of players do this, but I do it, especially on siege maps. It can be really effective. Sometimes it doesn't work, but when it does its awesome!
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 19, 2013, 06:41:54 pm
I actually don't see the problem here. I'm not sure if you were trying to imply that there was, though.
I was showing you how people can be funneled, and how even siege shields can be useful for things other than block arrow fire. You seemed to disbelieve both of these.
Now, the problem: All these things can be done with siege shields...which barely block off an area as wide as a player, take up 2 slots, and die in 2 hits.
Stakes take up a very large area in comparison, take up 1 slot, kill cav, and block arrows. They are OP. That is the essence of the problem, you see.
I am all for giving it a little while and seeing how players use them before calling for a huge nerf or something...but at face value it seems they should take up 2 slots I'd say.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: LordRichrich on March 19, 2013, 06:50:48 pm
They're limited to 4 per round. I tooks 3 1 round, some other people on the other team took some. When only 2 of mine went up, I asked. Blah blah blah, we found it's limited to four. So I don't think they're too bad tbh
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 19, 2013, 06:51:51 pm
I was showing you how people can be funneled, and how even siege shields can be useful for things other than block arrow fire. You seemed to disbelieve both of these.
Now, the problem: All these things can be done with siege shields...which barely block off an area as wide as a player, take up 2 slots, and die in 2 hits.
Stakes take up a very large area in comparison, take up 1 slot, kill cav, and block arrows. They are OP. That is the essence of the problem, you see.
I am all for giving it a little while and seeing how players use them before calling for a huge nerf or something...but at face value it seems they should take up 2 slots I'd say.
Yes, I see now HOW they can be funneled, but I don't see how it's a problem. What this does say to me is that siege shields should be one slot instead of two rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 19, 2013, 06:54:14 pm
Keep it up Aiyasha and you will receive your first infamy
I know arguing against anything that's not archer nerfs is frowned upon but I really think this is ridiculous. They haven't even been out a day yet and people are throwing a fit and crying.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Penitent on March 19, 2013, 06:58:21 pm
I am actually all for buffing siege shields or making them 1 slot. I seem to be the only one that uses them. :) I'd love to take 2!
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 19, 2013, 06:58:38 pm
I'm not throwing a fit or crying, and I haven't even played with them yet...I just think 1 slot is not enough, and 2 slots is the way to go.
Having only 4 on a map at once seems kind of low to me though...
Also, as a non-archer, I pretty much always defend them (and any other class) that gets nerfed because people are too stupid/stubborn to change their tactics/adapt to the battlefield.
I think they are too large for only 1 slot, and most dedicated melee (who aren't hybrids) such as 1h/shield, 2h or polearm, have 2 extra slots on them.
Maybe make a smaller version that is only 1 slot as well? Maybe make a 1 slot siege shield as well (aka a deployable pavise shield)?
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Kafein on March 19, 2013, 07:01:11 pm
I know arguing against anything that's not archer nerfs is frowned upon but I really think this is ridiculous. They haven't even been out a day yet and people are throwing a fit and crying.
It's not like that is a reason not to say anything. I'm sure you can think of something ridiculous enough to be criticized day one yourself. That you don't think stakes are worthy of that or not is opinion.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 19, 2013, 07:03:19 pm
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Overdriven on March 19, 2013, 07:19:15 pm
I don't even need to have a game with them and can see they should be two slots. Even with a limit of 4 per round. It should require at least some dedication to take the stakes. Heck I'd go so far as to suggest 3 slots but then pretty much no one would take them.
I don't even need to have a game with them and can see they should be two slots. Even with a limit of 4 per round. It should require at least some dedication to take the stakes. Heck I'd go so far as to suggest 3 slots but then pretty much no one would take them.
Then let's hope you never land a position that deals with balance. That you've decided how broken an item is that you've never had a game with says a lot.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Overdriven on March 19, 2013, 07:25:36 pm
Then let's hope you never land a position that deals with balance. That you've decided how broken an item is that you've never had a game with them says a lot.
:rolleyes:
I've played this game enough to know an obvious balance issue when I see one. If anything that means I should be on the balance team :wink:
Besides I never said the item was broken. Though insta-killing horses before they've been fully deployed seems extreme. It's simply a matter of slots.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Aiyasha on March 19, 2013, 07:32:10 pm
I'll not accept such perversion when there are children present! Lewd!
Apologies m'lady.
I suggest we discuss this more civilly over a meal of stake and eggs. It seems some tempers have spiked over this pointed topic, but wooden we all be better off once we've carved out a place where this can be discussed with more politeness--rather than splintering off in to sharp insults by all parties?
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on March 19, 2013, 08:15:10 pm
The Stakes have never been Higher
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Penitent on March 19, 2013, 08:21:14 pm
What is this...Cymro gets +1's for his re-hashed one-liner and my pun-packed-paragraph gets passed over?
I've got like 8 puns in there you ESL delinquents! :)
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 19, 2013, 08:21:45 pm
I'm really lazy...
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on March 19, 2013, 08:22:32 pm
I am actually all for buffing siege shields or making them 1 slot. I seem to be the only one that uses them. :) I'd love to take 2!
And there is the problem. Nobody uses those "field fortifications", which is really disappointing, as they are a great tactical addition. But I guess that's the reason: using it requires a sense of tactic and teamplay. Nobody uses those items because they don't smash the skulls of your enemies, increasing your kill count and letting your e-peen grow.
I think to motivate some people to bring those items again, we need to do a few things:
- I actually agree that it would be nice having stakes being only 1 slot, just to see more people use it, but I could also accept 2 slots. On the other hand I think siege shields could really be one slot. But having them 3 slots is basically retarded, as literally NOBODY would bring them. But I want to see those battlefield fortifications every round. - Remove upkeep or lower it considerably. Those people who do have spare slots for those items usually move at the maximum of their upkeep budget, due to heavy Kuyak armour, face helmets and expensive two handed weapons. - Lower weight. Yes, I think this should be done. The additional weight only affects the beginning of the round, not the middle or the end, where you are fighting and need fotwork, as you place those items at the beginning of a round. Knowing that you might be slower than the rest of your team and represent easier prey for archers and cavalry does not really raise the popularity of those items. - Perhaps make placing those items raise your score by a few points. I think this is justified in any case, because you contribute something to your team, pay with slots, upkeep and weight, and should get some reward for it, aside from raising the chances for winning the round by a tiny bit.
Regards, Joker, who is still naive enough to think that you could and should put more teamplay in that game.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Duster on March 19, 2013, 09:32:26 pm
Yes, make it so you get points for throwing fortifications so semenstorm can whip up a weapon rack and spam them for points! So we can be rewarded for our teamwork
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 19, 2013, 09:43:19 pm
Yes, make it so you get points for throwing fortifications so semenstorm can whip up a weapon rack and spam them for points! So we can be rewarded for our teamwork
Haven't played since the update, but the first thing I though when I saw the changes was oh boy weapon rack fueled fort building. Maybe a balista or two as well...
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Dach on March 19, 2013, 10:36:42 pm
- I actually agree that it would be nice having stakes being only 1 slot, just to see more people use it, but I could also accept 2 slots. On the other hand I think siege shields could really be one slot. But having them 3 slots is basically retarded, as literally NOBODY would bring them. But I want to see those battlefield fortifications every round.
Did you read my suggestions in my last post just above?
- Remove upkeep or lower it considerably. Those people who do have spare slots for those items usually move at the maximum of their upkeep budget, due to heavy Kuyak armour, face helmets and expensive two handed weapons.
Upkeep is fine, it's not like it's c-site high really...
- Lower weight. Yes, I think this should be done. The additional weight only affects the beginning of the round, not the middle or the end, where you are fighting and need fotwork, as you place those items at the beginning of a round. Knowing that you might be slower than the rest of your team and represent easier prey for archers and cavalry does not really raise the popularity of those items.
Hmm teamplay? If you want stake... protect your engineer until they can get their job done... weight is fine!
- Perhaps make placing those items raise your score by a few points. I think this is justified in any case, because you contribute something to your team, pay with slots, upkeep and weight, and should get some reward for it, aside from raising the chances for winning the round by a tiny bit.
Agree, point system is still not balanced... nothing new here...
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Joker86 on March 19, 2013, 11:25:36 pm
1. Actually I wrote it to support all the other suggestions which went into the same drection, including yours.
2. Still it could be a little bit less, as it's not comparable to paying for armour, weapons or horse.
3. I want more people to use construction items. Do you suggest people who want to use them to rely on teammates for protection? :rolleyes: :P
4. Thanks :mrgreen:
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Dach on March 19, 2013, 11:36:05 pm
Just happened to me, my horse die in the middle of nowhere... in the split second I'm falling down i'm seeing spike coming up from the ground.... bullshit! :lol: :mrgreen:
Seems you have activated my.... TRAP CARD
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Penitent on March 20, 2013, 01:33:02 am
No I think he means his clan was so good at using team tactics with archers that there was an outcry and it got archery nerfed.
Well, then I still think he didn't make a point. Not everybody is in a clan, and I don't see why people always think that without a clan teamplay is not possible. I know several games where some random people connect and immediately know what's to do and which tactic is to be applied, completely without the game telling you or voice chat or something like that.
The fact that the Fallens and other clans use teamplay does not mean that a random player will suddenly equip items which require his teammates to protect him. Most players lack that kind of naive and unrealistic thinking.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: dreadnok on March 20, 2013, 02:44:27 am
cause there laggy as fuck and glitchy
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: Dach on March 20, 2013, 02:45:07 am
I'm not saying randomers cannot do teamplay... but if they want to do teamplay they need to coordinates their efforts...
Which goes back to people protecting the engineer IF they want to have the stake protection.
If all the hero goes out charging like mindless robot on a mission for blood... they don't deserve the benefice of the stakes.
This is why I'm against reducing the weight on them.
No I think he means his clan was so good at using team tactics with archers that there was an outcry and it got archery nerfed.
"It got nerfed because of the whine" is a poor excuse commonly used by the whiners themselves or by people who have no idea about the balancing process.
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: isatis on March 20, 2013, 04:53:14 am
I just wanna point out that those stacks are now my formidable Anti-falling damage Magic ice soft cushion!! Perfect for sneaky attack!
(in straight word : I throw them before jumping and I take no fall dmg! and YES THIS IS AWESOME!!)
Title: Re: What's with all the stake hate?
Post by: pepejul on March 20, 2013, 09:03:52 pm
Try to throw it near a wall and JAIL all pple between stack and wall....so funny ! I lvoe this..
Maybe it is funnier than ladders in ancient Crpg time....