cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Blueberry Muffin on February 07, 2013, 11:21:17 am

Title: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on February 07, 2013, 11:21:17 am
I literally never used ironflesh since the start of crpg, I was always pushing for one more athletics or weaponmaster.... I figured if I got hit, it was my own fault. Using the 12 27 build as I did in the old days,  taught me to block like a robot because 1 hit would be all it would take.... I loved it though, I loved the rush of adrenaline that came with walking along a knife edge in every fight.

Nowadays though, with the amount of ranged and the number of people who seem to aim quite specifically at me, (read: fuck you grumpy nic and a few others) I have had to put ironflesh into my builds if I want to get to the fight alive; even as a shielder this holds true. This has slowed me down due to the limiting factor on my build and also I have begun to rely on ironflesh. I think a few of you have seen me on my alt, Merc_Slaphead. My playstyle has warped and degenerated into a hiltslashing spammer, who just shrugs off the hits that people try to land on me.

Every build I had before was special in some way, but now due to the complete ranged fest I feel limited, slow and pretty skillless. The playstyle that I have stooped to using requires no special talent or skill and I have become the ironflesh stacking bastard that I previously despised.

Ranged is not an OP class, you should be able to top the scoreboard as ranged just like any other class, but the sheer volume of these players is simply overwhelming. That, coupled with the lovely autobalance that gets 90% of ranged on one team leaves me at something of an impasse. Die to ranged or stack ironflesh like every other person in this game.

I dont really know where Im going with this, dont nerf ranged, I'd just appreciate it if there were less of them. I am a decent archer when I put my mind to it, but I have made a point of not becoming an archer, in an attempt to avoid exacerbating the issue. Some of you should do the same.
Title: Re: Ironflesh
Post by: no_rules_just_play on February 07, 2013, 11:28:14 am
here we go again...
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Vibe on February 07, 2013, 11:28:57 am
Choose your game difficulty:
[ ] Hard
[ ] Medium
[ ] Easy
[ ] Ranged
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: BlueKnight on February 07, 2013, 11:29:30 am
I have a solution but it will be tl;dr so I will paste it when it's long enough
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Molly on February 07, 2013, 11:29:44 am
I keep saying this for some time now:

The damage of archery isn't the problem - only the high amount of them is a problem.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Joseph Porta on February 07, 2013, 11:50:28 am
more IF less armor is the way to go Muffin. :D
youll catch an arrow or two and you are more agile whilst still holding the adrenaline in melee. :)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tydeus on February 07, 2013, 12:24:53 pm
I literally never used ironflesh since the start of crpg, I was always pushing for one more athletics or weaponmaster.... I figured if I got hit, it was my own fault. Using the 12 27 build as I did in the old days,  taught me to block like a robot because 1 hit would be all it would take.... I loved it though, I loved the rush of adrenaline that came with walking along a knife edge in every fight.

Nowadays though, with the amount of ranged and the number of people who seem to aim quite specifically at me, (read: fuck you grumpy nic and a few others) I have had to put ironflesh into my builds if I want to get to the fight alive; even as a shielder this holds true. This has slowed me down due to the limiting factor on my build and also I have begun to rely on ironflesh. I think a few of you have seen me on my alt, Merc_Slaphead. My playstyle has warped and degenerated into a hiltslashing spammer, who just shrugs off the hits that people try to land on me.

Every build I had before was special in some way, but now due to the complete ranged fest I feel limited, slow and pretty skillless. The playstyle that I have stooped to using requires no special talent or skill and I have become the ironflesh stacking bastard that I previously despised.

QFT 10,000 times over. When I first started playing crpg I did agi builds 15/24, 18/21. Then I started using a 27/12 build and playing with what you see in my forum picture. K:D ratio went up, and personal skill level went down. Plate and IF are so easy to crutch on by themselves but to make matters even worse, it's often beneficial to crutch on them as well.

I really think the armor value of armors in this mod need scaled down again so that 60-65 would be the max attainable with heirlooms.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 07, 2013, 12:46:50 pm
Dear Muffin,

from now on, whenever we are on the same team, I will try to protect you and shoot at enemy ranged players that are aiming for you. Although you are a melee prick you are one of 2, or maybe 3 people in this game which I really respect.

If you're on the other team I'll try to shoot you of course because you're a melee prick.

Best Regards

Grumpy_Nic
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 12:49:47 pm
There are many infantry players as well, and their amount doesnt seem to be a problem?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 12:54:21 pm
Choose your game difficulty:
[ ] Hard
[ ] Medium
[ ] Easy
[ ] Ranged
[ ] 2Η

You forgot something Vibe  :twisted:
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: a_bear_irl on February 07, 2013, 01:00:20 pm
when half the playerbase is using a class that can come from nowhere and deal 30-40 damage in one attack without fear of reprisal, you have to be a masochist to play without stacking IF and STR

triple the cost of ranged items and double the cost of horses
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 01:03:44 pm
when half the playerbase is using a class that can come from nowhere and deal 30-40 damage in one attack without fear of reprisal, you have to be a masochist to play without stacking IF and STR

triple the cost of ranged items and double the cost of horses

and remove the lolstab.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: a_bear_irl on February 07, 2013, 01:04:49 pm
in my ideal CRPG world if you wanted to play a trash class (read: ranged+cav) you would lose thousands of gold a round and have to have a melee alt to grind gold to support it
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 01:06:43 pm
in my ideal CRPG world if you wanted to play a trash class (read: ranged+cav) you would lose thousands of gold a round as cav/ranged and have to have a melee alt to grind gold to support it

in my ideal c-rpg world, all those warmask danish STR crutches lolstabbing my old friends, would need skill to play and not an abusive animation.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: _GTX_ on February 07, 2013, 01:07:36 pm
Why i play rageball mainly now, since it is alot more enjoyable. The sheer amount of ranged on the normal combat servers is insane, and its just not fun getting shot from somewhere 24/7.

INC: some random derail made by panos, probably an insult/harras.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 01:10:34 pm
Why i play rageball mainly now, since it is alot more enjoyable. The sheer amount of ranged on the normal combat servers is insane, and its just not fun getting shot from somewhere 24/7.

INC: some random derail made by panos, probably an insult/harras.

You play rageball because if you disconnect  and connect again, u spawn instantly.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Gurnisson on February 07, 2013, 01:36:53 pm
More fun playing ranged than my main... :P
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Alexander_TheGreat_ on February 07, 2013, 01:44:33 pm
Let me give birth to your children Muffin. This is the few long threads that i've ever read in my entire cRPG career (HAHA)
I agree with you, the amount of archery is retardo
But its not an excuse to use hiltslash (FUCK YOU)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on February 07, 2013, 01:46:45 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tzar on February 07, 2013, 01:47:11 pm
Get moar ironflesh nubs :!: :!:

Also make bodkin torpedo nukes cost the same as a plated charger huehuehue  :lol:
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Belatu on February 07, 2013, 01:49:27 pm
more like this

Choose your game difficulty:
[ ] Hard
[ ] Medium
[ ] Easy
[ ] Ranged
[ ] 2Η
[ ] Cav

 :wink:
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumbs on February 07, 2013, 01:55:46 pm
In terms of limiting numbers, you can only really do that by hitting people in their pocket, similarly to how cav is limited. Otherwise you have to mess with their unique ability or force them to sacrifice more for it, or provide more natural counters to them. If the purpose of ranged was to shoot at horses or light armoured guys it wouldn't be so bad, but they are the counter to everything in the game so its only sensible to play ranged if you want to help your team to win, and if you want to be actively taking part all round

Otherwise they will have to develop some kind of class limits which I honestly never expect to see.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Smoothrich on February 07, 2013, 01:57:05 pm
Heavy armor should be nerfed against melee, and medium armor should be buffed against ranged.  Basically don't just nerf armor, but fix it.  I think most of us wear it to deal with ranged, but it's not that good at blocking ranged damage in the first place.  Yet lots of lower cut damage melee weapons are complete trash to high armor values.  Find a better middle ground.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: no_rules_just_play on February 07, 2013, 01:58:02 pm
heavy armor was OP vs both ranged and melee, but it was just very expensive
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: rufio on February 07, 2013, 02:04:45 pm
full lordly milanese with 7 if, and still get 3/4/5 shot by archers in bodyshots, its a joke, xbows 2 shot me with the first shot taking 70% ~~  health, game is indeed broken, + dat stun is horrible so horrible. QQQQQQQQQQ
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 07, 2013, 02:05:16 pm
heavy armor was OP vs both ranged and melee, but it was just very expensive
Now it's just very expensive :D
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 02:05:40 pm
hehe.

why should one survive 3 arrows if he dies after 3 melee hits as well anyway. :)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 07, 2013, 02:06:45 pm
full lordly milanese with 7 if, and still get 3/4/5 shot by archers in bodyshots, its a joke, xbows 2 shot me with the first shot taking 70% ~~  health, game is indeed broken, + dat stun is horrible so horrible. QQQQQQQQQQ

Arent xbows supposed to be good vs heavy armor? High pierce damage...?
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 07, 2013, 02:08:03 pm
hehe.

why should one survive 3 arrows if he dies after 3 melee hits as well anyway. :)
Why should arrows stun and make someone stand in one place for ages when melee hits don't? :)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 07, 2013, 02:11:57 pm
Why should arrows stun and make someone stand in one place for ages when melee hits don't? :)

All weapons should do that, ask devs to add it.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: LordRichrich on February 07, 2013, 02:12:39 pm
Why should arrows stun and make someone stand in one place for ages when melee hits don't? :)
Because of the sheer rage your character feels some my old friendcher just shot him! It locks him in place!
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Kafein on February 07, 2013, 02:12:56 pm
Solution : play siege naked and stop caring about your deaths. My skill also way increased doing this. I basically went the reverse path, except the hiltslashing and IF bit. Also I hate your guts for how you play slaphead.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 02:13:13 pm
So, you dont get ministunned by melee hits like I get? Is it like that? If you get hit in melee, you also cannot directly hit back obviously. So where's the difference then?
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Kafein on February 07, 2013, 02:15:01 pm
So, you dont get ministunned by melee hits like I get? Is it like that? If you get hit in melee, you also cannot directly hit back obviously. So where's the difference then?

I assume that if you played cRPG for the amount of time you seem you did, you must have been shot at least once. Which leads me to the conclusion this quoted post is pure trolling.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Gurnisson on February 07, 2013, 02:15:47 pm
All weapons should do that, ask devs to add it.

Yes, polestagger to all weapons!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 02:18:03 pm
I assume that if you played cRPG for the amount of time you seem you did, you must have been shot at least once. Which leads me to the conclusion this quoted post is pure trolling.

I dont see the difference:

melee hits < - > arrow hits
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 02:19:32 pm
I dont see the difference:

melee hits < - > arrow hits

Yes, because getting hit by a poleaxe its the same thing getting hit by an arrow..
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 02:20:21 pm
I dont see the difference:

melee hits < - > arrow hits
For real? Getting stunned up to a full second, unable to block by a ranged hit is the same as the stun from a melee hit?
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Kafein on February 07, 2013, 02:23:56 pm
Yes, polestagger to all weapons!

(click to show/hide)

I'm not sure it would work alright globally, but at least that would mean less people surviving minutes in melee while surrounded by 15 enemies thanks to IF and armor.

I dont see the difference:

melee hits < - > arrow hits

Non-polearm melee hits don't stop movement (polearms stop movement) and only stun for a very short time (I'd say about 250ms by gut feeling). You have to see the blow coming and release before it lands in order to score a follow up hit on someone hit by a melee weapon. Projectile hits prevent movement, blocking and attacking for about a second (again, I am not sure at all about the numbers, but it is several times longer than the regular melee stun). Now I hope you see the problem.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 02:25:51 pm
I actual never feel a difference. But that's maybe just my PC.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 07, 2013, 02:32:20 pm
I actual never feel a difference. But that's maybe just my PC.

(click to show/hide)
Arrow hit locks you into one place for a good second (atleast it feels like it) whereas when you get hit by a melee weapon you can still continue walking even if you can't hit or block for a split second. Haven't really closely looked into this but I'd guess melee hit only stuns attack/block and doesn't prevent other movement...
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumbs on February 07, 2013, 02:33:13 pm
I actual never feel a difference. But that's maybe just my PC.

melee hits are usually hitting harder though, most times I dont care about any arrow, most archers dont cause as much dmg as 2h/pole users do

Anything in the head from ranged is 1 or 2 shots. Bodies 2,3,4,5 depending on what shot you, how far away they are and random factors

Its like comparing a pike with rather than 300 range to a pike with 3,000,000 range though, and even then its only blocked by a shield rather than easily blocked like melee is. You just can't compare damage to melee when melee is up close rather than at any range
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on February 07, 2013, 02:45:08 pm
I reckon archers should have more opportunity to use melee...

I dont mind xbowman so much, cause they see you and aim, you dodge around and then they either hit or miss. Then its into a melee fight where you have an advantage. The xbowman trades some melee capability to allow him to take that shot first, but the back up plan is fighting after the shot for 99% of xbowman.

Archers dont do this, they kite and they stand on hills so they will never have to draw their melee weapon. The playstyle breeds a mentality in which player such as shokoshugi are brought into the game. Watching him, or robinhood, or any other archer just run and run and run; shooting arrows again and again until the opponent is dead is just a sad thing to see.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 02:47:36 pm
I dont mind xbowman so much, cause they see you and aim, you dodge around and then they either hit or miss. Then its into a melee fight where you have an advantage. The xbowman trades some melee capability to allow him to take that shot first, but the back up plan is fighting after the shot for 99% of xbowman.

So, you like having an advantage and getting an easy kill. So after all you are an archer as well. You say they run and they are not fair playing at all, but what you expect them to do, is dying. You seem to be concentrated on winning alone. Typical.

Nothing more to say.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 02:52:35 pm
So, you like having an advantage and getting an easy kill. So after all you are an archer as well. You say they run and they are not fair playing at all, but what you expect them to do, is dying. You seem to be concentrated on winning alone. Typical.

Nothing more to say.

Instead of blaming him for saying "easy kill", blame all the archers than can`t melee shit.

for fuck sake, even GK`s can block more times than most archers..
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Vibe on February 07, 2013, 02:52:55 pm
Getting hit by melee interrupts your attack, but it does not stun you. This means you're still capable to block or attack again immediately after you get interrupted.
Getting hit by ranged stuns you, breaking your attack and rendering you useless for the duration of the stun.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumbs on February 07, 2013, 02:55:24 pm
I reckon archers should have more opportunity to use melee...

I dont mind xbowman so much, cause they see you and aim, you dodge around and then they either hit or miss. Then its into a melee fight where you have an advantage. The xbowman trades some melee capability to allow him to take that shot first, but the back up plan is fighting after the shot for 99% of xbowman.

Archers dont do this, they kite and they stand on hills so they will never have to draw their melee weapon. The playstyle breeds a mentality in which player such as shokoshugi are brought into the game. Watching him, or robinhood, or any other archer just run and run and run; shooting arrows again and again until the opponent is dead is just a sad thing to see.

If you buff hybriding you will see fewer pure melee players. You hardly trade anything atm as a 1 slot xbowman, even 2 slot just means you get a slightly shorter weapon but its still high blunt with knockdown. There are no actual requirements, just people dump points into movement speed for kiting.

Archers can already take 1 quiver and use up to Yumi with any melee weapon they want. People just elect to take 2 quivers and the top damage bows because they are the best performers atm. You don't even need to kite if you do enough damage before enemies get close. Simply standing on a hill with a Longbow or Rus bow is enough deterrent to stop people approaching, you don't even need to kite when you 2 or 3 shot people.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 02:58:16 pm
Instead of blaming him for saying "easy kill", blame all the archers than can`t melee shit.

for fuck sake, even GK`s can block more times than most archers..

Well. Maybe people do not like melee? And melee is not a must-do in this game. Melee is just one part of the game, as Archery and Cavalry is.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumbs on February 07, 2013, 03:04:05 pm
Cavalry is a form of melee. They still have to get close and can be manually blocked. When dehorsed they become a regular melee guy

Ranged is not subject to the same PVP counters as melee/cav, thats what people find irritating about it. Its one sided and cheap and its the best skill equaliser in the game.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: _GTX_ on February 07, 2013, 03:04:27 pm
hehe.

why should one survive 3 arrows if he dies after 3 melee hits as well anyway. :)
You rly think that an arrow and a 2h/polearm should be the same dmg?  :rolleyes:

When you are attacking someone as a melee class, you are normally in a big danger. As a melee you can be hit by every class in the game, if you are dealing damage to someone (in most cases).

As an archer you are at a distance, and not in a huge danger. As an archer you might get hit by other ranged, and maybe the cav, if u are standing in a poor spot.

So basicly the risk/reward would be very unbalanced.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on February 07, 2013, 03:06:16 pm
So, you like having an advantage and getting an easy kill. So after all you are an archer as well. You say they run and they are not fair playing at all, but what you expect them to do, is dying. You seem to be concentrated on winning alone. Typical.

Nothing more to say.

No, as I said there is a tradeoff. The melee player with have the advantage of higher wpf and powerstrike than the xbowman. The crossbowman in return gets to fire a shot that might 1 hit or put you down to 10-30% hp. This is fair, the crossbowman has advantage at range whereas the melee will be better up close.

I was arguing for archer to have more melee capability, maybe you should reread my post before saying this. :D

If I cared only about winning I would say that the xbowman could not take his shot. :s
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 03:09:01 pm
Instead of blaming him for saying "easy kill", blame all the archers than can`t melee shit.

for fuck sake, even GK`s can block more times than most archers..
Guess what, most melees can't shoot shit.

"for fuck sake, even GK`s can shoot more times than most melees.."
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Mlekce on February 07, 2013, 03:10:49 pm
Get a shiled muffn,everything is fine. -10 votes on my similar thread last night tells you to get shield even if you have one already.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Prinz_Karl on February 07, 2013, 03:11:13 pm
So, you like having an advantage and getting an easy kill. So after all you are an archer as well. You say they run and they are not fair playing at all, but what you expect them to do, is dying. You seem to be concentrated on winning alone. Typical.

Nothing more to say.

Mark that the crossbowman had a range advantage before, so ofcourse you will then have an advantage at melee. That's what he wanted to say.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: zagibu on February 07, 2013, 03:12:27 pm
I've already posted this in another such thread, but I think making all quivers 2 slot would fix this problem.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 03:14:20 pm
Guess what, most melees can't shoot shit.

"for fuck sake, even GK`s can shoot more times than most melees.."

Ranged is based moslty on luck than skill.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 07, 2013, 03:15:21 pm
You rly think that an arrow and a 2h/polearm should be the same dmg?  :rolleyes:

When you are attacking someone as a melee class, you are normally in a big danger. As a melee you can be hit by every class in the game, if you are dealing damage to someone (in most cases).

As an archer you are at a distance, and not in a huge danger. As an archer you might get hit by other ranged, and maybe the cav, if u are standing in a poor spot.

So basicly the risk/reward would be very unbalanced.

This is 100% true. But you chose to take the higher risk, its not as if classes were assigned randomly.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on February 07, 2013, 03:15:55 pm
Get a shiled muffn,everything is fine. -10 votes on my similar thread last night tells you to get shield even if you have one already.

Thing is I dont want to play shielder all the time, I also dont mind being shot by ranged. They are part of the game.

My post is more about how too much ranged has led me to a playstyle than I dont personally enjoy; and any other playstyle of a shieldless melee player is frankly not worth playing.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: XyNox on February 07, 2013, 03:16:08 pm
I've already posted this in another such thread, but I think making all quivers 2 slot would fix this problem.

Or making all greatswords 5 slot
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 03:16:13 pm
When an attack randomly glances off a guys 70 body armour and 10IF char, it also becomes based on luck :wink:
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 03:19:04 pm
When an attack randomly glances off a guys 70 body armour and 10IF char, it also becomes based on luck :wink:

but then you have the option to attack or block, with ranged you don`t have this option.

PEW PEW RUN, PEW PEW RUN, PEW PEW RUN.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Vibe on February 07, 2013, 03:22:36 pm
Glances often give your enemy a free hit
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 03:23:24 pm
but then you have the option to shoot or dodge, with melee you don't have this option.

SWING SWING RUN, SWING SWING RUN, SWING SWING RUN.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Panos on February 07, 2013, 03:24:45 pm
but then you have the option to shoot or dodge, with melee you don't have this option.

SWING SWING RUN, SWING SWING RUN, SWING SWING RUN.

of course you have an option as an archer, u can either stay and fight or run, which in most cases the second happens.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 07, 2013, 03:25:27 pm
What do you say... Would it be a good time to let ranged stagger go? Arrow/bolt/throwing hit would simply stun you like melee weapons --> cancel your attack.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 03:25:44 pm
of course you have an option as a melee, u can either stay and fight or run, which in most cases the second happens.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Vibe on February 07, 2013, 03:25:52 pm
What do you say... Would it be a good time to let ranged stagger go? Arrow/bolt/throwing hit would simply stun you like melee weapons --> cancel your attack.

I'd keep it for throwing tbh. Throwing hammer to the face is too awesome to not stun.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Prpavi on February 07, 2013, 03:27:42 pm
played a lvl 31 bastard 24/15 with 8PS 8IF 69 body armor... didn't help all that much. in melee yes, ranged no.

as you said the sheer volume of projectiles hitting me from all over plus stun with 5ath i was helpless.

now im just sitting around waiting for better days.... Battlegrounds maybe?
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Son Of Odin on February 07, 2013, 03:28:01 pm
I'd keep it for throwing tbh. Throwing hammer to the face is too awesome to not stun.
Well you have a point there :rolleyes:
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Dalhi on February 07, 2013, 03:32:03 pm
I think now everyone agrees that Latvian should retire and thus reduce the amount of the range players on EU servers.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Rebelyell on February 07, 2013, 03:34:10 pm
played a lvl 31 bastard 24/15 with 8PS 8IF 69 body armor... didn't help all that much. in melee yes, ranged no.

as you said the sheer volume of projectiles hitting me from all over plus stun with 5ath i was helpless.

now im just sitting around waiting for better days.... Battlegrounds maybe?
not true, after i hit 70 body armor lots of arrows and throwing weapons glance or make 5% dmg(not all of them some archers have awesome dmg output),
but still h xbow can take 50% of my hp with one body shot(why that class is still in game)

Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Prpavi on February 07, 2013, 03:36:26 pm
not true, after i hit 70 body armor lots of arrows and throwing weapons glance or make 5% dmg(not all of them some archers have awesome dmg output),
but still h xbow can take 50% of my hp with one body shot(why that class is still in game)

ok im lying then...
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: XyNox on February 07, 2013, 03:48:00 pm
Even when there are discussions about internal melee balance, ranged not included, you see nothing but complaints about plated str builds with oneshotting greatswords. Now if melee complain about this bullshit, how are archers supposed to "stay and fight" these ironman clones in melee ?

Over the last weeks I was trying a more melee orientated playstyle than usual. Putting on armor which is over my weight penalty limit, using a 1 slot bow instead of 2 slot, messing with different sidearms, keeping close to the melee blob as a close support unit. And let me tell you this: the game does not want archers to play like this.

Of course you can get kills in melee as an archer. If you face an enemy with light-medium armor there is a somewhat fair chance of winning the fight. You still might need 4 - 6 hits while he needs just one or two but at least you wont glance as much. But if some IF-STRstacking walking abrams tank is rolling into your direction there is simply no point in fighting. Even with 40 bodyarmor a greatsword will oneshot me in the body while I glance 90 % of the time on his plated ass. Since I gimped my ranged capabilities by choosing encumbering armor and a smaller bow, relying on my bow is not an option either. All your armor is doing in this situation is slowing you down making you an easy kill. And the most frustrating thing about this is that you know you would probably roflstomp that 2h spammer with wooden stick, given you have a str crutcher build as well. So retreat is the only solution left.

With the current ranged "balance" I see no point really in engaging in melee as long as there are other possibilities to gain another chance to take a shot. If dedicated melee was less faceroll-autokill against archers, they probably could be arsed to run less. But devs did not seem to have that option in mind when nerfing archers for the bazillionth time.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tydeus on February 07, 2013, 04:46:09 pm
As an alternative to playing ranged or playing with plate/IF crutch, granted it's cheating, I have been putting 4-5 PT into my builds with about 110~ wpf in throwing and using mw war darts and throwing daggers. It's a build that is extremely effective in so many different ways. You can use it with short weapons to force longer weapon people to use their w key, you can use it against ranged players, you can use them against cavalry and often 1-2 shot oncoming horses(head shots) and consistently 4 shot rouncies from full hp without good speed bonuses(6/8 ammo per stack).

I haven't been able to try this with a level 30 polearm build yet, but it's still nearly every bit as effective as doing it with a 1her. Extremely fun and well rounded build, I suggest it for anyone not wanting to do a heavy str build.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 04:50:11 pm
I've already posted this in another such thread, but I think making all quivers 2 slot would fix this problem.

Great. So I cannot use a 1slot weapon together with a Long Bow/Arrows.. amazing suggestion.
NO.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Rumblood on February 07, 2013, 04:50:37 pm
I dont mind xbowman so much, cause they see you and aim, you dodge around and then they either hit or miss. Then its into a melee fight where you have an advantage. The xbowman trades some melee capability to allow him to take that shot first, but the back up plan is fighting after the shot for 99% of xbowman.

This is simply a misrepresentation of the use of xbows in the server. These guys find a tree or building or hill they can hide behind and shoot at roughly the same Damage Per Second as an archer. Takes slightly longer to load, but punches with a lot more damage. They don't shoot one shot and then run into melee. They shoot until forced to melee, and since xbows don't take as much of an investment, they also have some melee stats to back them up. Even against an archer, they have and use the obstacle they find to their advantage and so only have disadvantage there in the open field (in which they are rarely found ).

If you want to reduce ranged on the servers, the method has been proposed several times. It has simply not been implemented for reasons ranging from "it isn't realistic" to who knows what bias.

Method #1 - Implement minimum WPF requirements per xbow.
Method #2 - Implement a requirement like Power Draw for xbows.

Currently you don't have to make a hard choice between your melee skills or your ranged ability where xbows are concerned. This makes it a very easy choice to take one. Don't make it an easy choice and you will reduce the amount of ranged on the servers.

Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Kafein on February 07, 2013, 04:52:56 pm
With the current ranged "balance" I see no point really in engaging in melee as long as there are other possibilities to gain another chance to take a shot. If dedicated melee was less faceroll-autokill against archers, they probably could be arsed to run less. But devs did not seem to have that option in mind when nerfing archers for the bazillionth time.

Well you are using a very wrong perspective here. Archers shouldn't have to want to get into melee to find themselves into it. Otherwise that would mean archers have some sort of advantage in melee over more melee oriented builds, which would be ridiculous and unbalanced. The main problem is that if archers choose not to melee, they won't, unless chased by someone significantly faster than them, probably carrying a shield as well and willing to risk being shot or attacked by the rest of the archer's team, which is not a common breed.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Molly on February 07, 2013, 05:07:24 pm
Great. So I cannot use a 1slot weapon together with a Long Bow/Arrows.. amazing suggestion.
NO.
As far as I am concerned, make quiver 0 slot but restrict archers to only 1 quiver. Gives them the chance to pack a longbow and a decent 2 slot weapon... if this would mean they all stop running!  8-)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tydeus on February 07, 2013, 05:20:02 pm
As far as I am concerned, make quiver 0 slot but restrict archers to only 1 quiver. Gives them the chance to pack a longbow and a decent 2 slot weapon... if this would mean they all stop running!  8-)
Awful, a better idea would be to increase the number of 1 slot weapons. Not that this is a great alternative to simply buffing 1h cut damage so 1h is more appealing for archers.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 05:23:56 pm
Increase quiver size, limit to 1 quiver?
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tydeus on February 07, 2013, 05:29:10 pm
Increase quiver size, limit to 1 quiver?
No, this limits player choice and customization. Of course, by "player" I am referring to archers. So moot point, right?
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 05:31:07 pm
Then simply increase quiver size? Having a single quiver of less than 20 arrows is kind of too few to really do much, which is why many archers get 2 quivers and are thus limited to a 0 slot melee weapon...
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 07, 2013, 05:36:37 pm
All they really need to do is balance the teams better.  Archery isn't OP by itself, when one team is stacked with archers and all it takes is for one to hit you and you stop moving for a full second.  If you get hit by one projectile, and you have 6 archers shooting at you, you're pretty much screwed.

Also changing battle to some objective based (on top of killing the whole enemy team) would make archers less powerful in groups.

And making it so that you can't be a pocket xbow user would be good too.  You should need a skill requirement for each xbow (besides strength).  It should be similar to Power Draw, and you should also have a WPF drop for each point in that skill. 

These are all common sense suggestions to dealing with "the problem" of ranged without actually nerfing the class (they're already nerfed farther than they should be IMO)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tydeus on February 07, 2013, 05:39:09 pm
Or you can drop the 2 slot bow and not use bodkins. Instead, everyone stubbornly expects to be able to have the best of both worlds. Sorry, that simply isn't balanced.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 05:44:53 pm
Naw, i'll rather stick to places, where the melee can't reach me, then, with my 0 slot melee weap.

Way to miss the point, bro.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Miwiw on February 07, 2013, 05:53:07 pm
Or you can drop the 2 slot bow and not use bodkins. Instead, everyone stubbornly expects to be able to have the best of both worlds. Sorry, that simply isn't balanced.

So, Archers aren't allowed to use a 2 slot bow + bodkins, but a 2hander can ofc pick any weapon he wants, same with any other class, heh? That's not very friendly and kinda racist.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Rumblood on February 07, 2013, 06:02:53 pm
In addition to the xbow requirements change, they really could open the chamber window so that with awareness and a bit of really good timing, about 10-20% of incoming missiles could be swatted away (not blocked).

In other words, add skill based solutions. It is too bad that the strength crutching lobby was able to have athletics reduced to its current state. Dodging arrows used to be (and for really high athletics still is) a skill based method of dealing with ranged.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Elindor on February 07, 2013, 06:33:38 pm
Looking at muffin's original post....the real issue is really the team balancer.

If the balancer could classify someone as "ranged" somehow and "cav" somehow (maybe by your build, although in most cases it wouldn't notice xbow users)...and just balance the numbers of each on each  team. 

That seems to be what muffin was asking for unless im mistaken.
Not saying thats curenttly doable, but it seems to be what he is asking for.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: BlueKnight on February 07, 2013, 06:45:40 pm
Or you can drop the 2 slot bow and not use bodkins. Instead, everyone stubbornly expects to be able to have the best of both worlds. Sorry, that simply isn't balanced.
So archer with 1h melee weapon, with 1wpf, with his 3-6PS (depending if high level or not) is found 'OP' by you? Anybody complaining about archers killing him in melee just deserves to die... I would prefer archers to have 1 quiver with like +50% arrows, each loom woud add +2 arrows to the quiver and MW is +3 arrows, basic stats of bows +1 to damage and +1 to damage with each next loom so all in all they keep the damage from looming that we have now but have like 4-5 less arrows and have normal 1-slot melee weapon. Imho archer running away is mainly a problem because he can't fight with his 0slot shiet (it's suicide).

Melee is beautiful part of the mod and like 70% play this game only cuz of melee and I don't see why archer would have to have shitty archery possibilities (horn bow does really low damage) if he wanted to use melee.

Imho changing quiver size and looming system with bows would be buff to archers but slight nerf to archery (because like 4-5 less arrows).
Archer who is shooting and fighting great will be finally better than archer who just shoots great. Also less arrows is less QQ for melee and fighting ability will be (I believe) more fun for archers themselves.

To all who say these 4-5 less arrows is 2 few, it depends on the size of the battle whether it is 20vs20 or 50vs50, once archers have enough arrows and once not enough but it's similar with melee. Melee unit's influence is greater during 20vs20 than 50vs50 and imho it's the proper way like it should be.

Also there will be lower difference between unloomed archer's damage and loomed archer's damage (3 not 4) while keeping damage of loomed archer same as it's now. Less pain for unloomed archers. (Unloomed archer sux dix)

Important thing is that there wouldn't be any 0 slot weapon that you could block with. 0 slot weapons would be only those that you can't block with, ex. daggers etc. Then, there might be some my old friends who decide to take zillion arrows (2 bags of like 28 arrows each) but it's their choice and they wouldn't be able to block (except chambering with fists or that 0slot dagger). I think it would be fair. Ofc weight of 1 bag of arrows would have to be adjusted or could stay like this that we have now.

Also these 4-5 less arrows (from 1 +3quiver than 2 +3quivers now) would mean that archers have to be a bit more accurate and pay more attention while shooting (cuz of less shots available)

Agree or don't agree, I was planning to start new topic in suggestions corner but ptx already mentioned the 1 quiver thing so I decided to type it here.

If the balancer could classify someone as "ranged" somehow and "cav" somehow (maybe by your build, although in most cases it wouldn't notice xbow users)...and just balance the numbers of each on each  team. 
80+ wpf in 1 class would count somebody as a player of that class and it means that actually HA would be counted as archers not cav, so second thing that would be counted would be riding. Only wpf and riding is what would count and therefore we would perfectly see what class somebody is. Now we only need a formula to keep it all even. Riding above 4 would be classified as cav. 4 and below can't be counted as cav... it would be pitiful.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 07, 2013, 07:00:21 pm
Of course you can get kills in melee as an archer. If you face an enemy with light-medium armor there is a somewhat fair chance of winning the fight. You still might need 4 - 6 hits while he needs just one or two but at least you wont glance as much.
Yeah, when wearing my light armor I can get onehit by archers headshotting me with their axes...
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: XyNox on February 07, 2013, 07:10:21 pm
Yeah, when wearing my light armor I can get onehit by archers headshotting me with their axes...

Then your head armor appears to be a bit too "light"  :wink:
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tydeus on February 07, 2013, 07:51:26 pm
Naw, i'll rather stick to places, where the melee can't reach me, then, with my 0 slot melee weap.

Way to miss the point, bro.
No, I didn't miss the point. I just don't like the idea of removing the balancing factor that is keeping 1 slot bows in this game. Any change that reduces the number of viable builds isn't worth looking into. These changes would all remove the point of 1 slot ranged weapons.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: rufio on February 07, 2013, 07:54:15 pm
everybody should just respec to xbow with a 1 handed blunt. you will have the highest range damage, speed to run away. and if cornered you can fight and 1vs1 have the advantage if youre a good player, since you will hardly glance and do good damage on heavyer armors, if you glance that glance still has a high chance to knock your opponent down. and you have a 1 hander wich dousnt need more than 50 wpf because the turnrate is already op compared to other classes. your only real enemy is other ranged, and weapon stun, but hey you will be faster on your feet than eny other class so.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: zagibu on February 07, 2013, 07:55:46 pm
...But if some IF-STRstacking walking abrams tank is rolling into your direction there is simply no point in fighting...

Yep, and it should be this way. What the game is missing is that abrams tanks are also impervious to arrows.

And to your comment about making greatswords 5 slots: I would support making them 3 slots, so you can't bring another big two handed weapon with you. Maybe the longest could even be 4 slots.

I understand that making all quivers 2 slots comes off as a bit extreme, but if you think about it, you'll see that after having shot all their arrows, archers would be useless UNLESS they used some kind of melee weapon (which is exactly the goal). And yeah, if you take a long/warbow, then you can't use a melee weapon. Too bad. You can pick one up or use one of the 0 slot weapons.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: [ptx] on February 07, 2013, 07:59:21 pm
No, I didn't miss the point. I just don't like the idea of removing the balancing factor that is keeping 1 slot bows in this game. Any change that reduces the number of viable builds isn't worth looking into. These changes would all remove the point of 1 slot ranged weapons.
Last i checked, 1 slot bows have
a) greater speed
b) lower PD requirements
c) overall greater ease of use

Keeping them in the game? I think they're rock solid where they are.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tydeus on February 07, 2013, 08:18:56 pm
Rock solid? Latest usage statistics(1-2 months ago I believe) say otherwise.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Kalam on February 07, 2013, 09:19:02 pm
QFT 10,000 times over. When I first started playing crpg I did agi builds 15/24, 18/21. Then I started using a 27/12 build and playing with what you see in my forum picture. K:D ratio went up, and personal skill level went down. Plate and IF are so easy to crutch on by themselves but to make matters even worse, it's often beneficial to crutch on them as well.

I really think the armor value of armors in this mod need scaled down again so that 60-65 would be the max attainable with heirlooms.

Not going to lie, I'm in the same boat. Once upon a time, I would've called 18/21 a strength build. Those days are over, in part because I've become a worse player, but also due to the frustration of playing a melee agility character. In general, the game seems extremely balanced. It's only this melee vs. strength thing that stands out, to me. I don't blame archers, though, as much as the fact that you'd be stupid to do 12/27 as anything other than a gimmick build these days.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Haboe on February 07, 2013, 11:27:46 pm

Why you move good thread to semi-dead forum page  :?:
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Moncho on February 07, 2013, 11:50:24 pm
Oh, there is a skill called ironflesh? I always thought that that button was useless, never used it...
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Kafein on February 08, 2013, 02:37:34 am
What was this thread about again ?
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: XyNox on February 08, 2013, 03:49:08 am
What was this thread about again ?

Without rereading the OP id guess its about ranged being OP because there are too many.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: bagge on February 08, 2013, 06:40:01 am
I've already posted this in another such thread, but I think making all quivers 2 slot would fix this problem.

Hahahahah.. ha... ha... ha... :)
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 08, 2013, 02:40:03 pm
Old chinese wisdom:

normal player die in feinting,good player only die in arrows or siege attack...
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: bagge on February 08, 2013, 08:39:42 pm
Ranged is based moslty on luck than skill.

lol, seriously? :|
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Tindel on February 08, 2013, 09:27:38 pm
being beaten in melee allows you to participate

being shot denies you participation


thats the heart of all these threads, thats why people keep making them.  They feel griefed.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Rumblood on February 08, 2013, 09:40:32 pm
Ranged is based moslty on luck than skill.
lol, seriously? :|

He's petitioning for an increase in accuracy. Leave him be  :P
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Teeth on February 10, 2013, 12:26:41 am
On a build with 68 body armour and 66 hp, single arrows taking 40% each is somewhat excessive. I even got a shield and ranged still pisses me off. Sometimes I think back to the 2010 days, where most rounds of battle consisted of 2 huge shieldwalls skirmishing for a minute. Everyone wearing plate and everyone having a shield or a ranged weapon. Then these huge shieldwalls would clash and most of the ranged would join the melee fight.

Now those times had a ton of flaws, but having an area based xp/gold system created a much more interesting and focused battle and reduced the problems of kiting ranged or spread out ranged players. There were rarely any lone archers, because it did not pay off. Now I do advocate the return of atleast some area based rewards, because battle nowadays just consists of people fighting eachother like headless chicken, instead of an intense teambased fight like strat field battles. Don't think that will happen though.

Alternatively, I think pure ranged should be impossible and having a melee weapon and some armour should be a no brainer for ranged. They can be a good hybrid now, but they don't, because ranged bundle of stickss gonna range bundle of sticks. Force them to have an actual weapon, reduce run speed with a bow even further, but allow them to wear more armour and get a lot more wpf without losing that much ranged capabilities. Fucking peasant archers are stupid.

Ah what the hell, cRPG is not getting any major changes anymore I guess.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Rumblood on February 10, 2013, 04:28:49 am
On a build with 68 body armour and 66 hp, single arrows taking 40% each is somewhat excessive. I even got a shield and ranged still pisses me off. Sometimes I think back to the 2010 days, where most rounds of battle consisted of 2 huge shieldwalls skirmishing for a minute. Everyone wearing plate and everyone having a shield or a ranged weapon. Then these huge shieldwalls would clash and most of the ranged would join the melee fight.

Now those times had a ton of flaws, but having an area based xp/gold system created a much more interesting and focused battle and reduced the problems of kiting ranged or spread out ranged players. There were rarely any lone archers, because it did not pay off. Now I do advocate the return of atleast some area based rewards, because battle nowadays just consists of people fighting eachother like headless chicken, instead of an intense teambased fight like strat field battles. Don't think that will happen though.

Alternatively, I think pure ranged should be impossible and having a melee weapon and some armour should be a no brainer for ranged. They can be a good hybrid now, but they don't, because ranged bundle of stickss gonna range bundle of sticks. Force them to have an actual weapon, reduce run speed with a bow even further, but allow them to wear more armour and get a lot more wpf without losing that much ranged capabilities. Fucking peasant archers are stupid.

Ah what the hell, cRPG is not getting any major changes anymore I guess.

Actually, I can confirm them. The new test server uses a different settings file, which means our custom armor soak/reduce parameters didn't get loaded.

I would be interested to know if this is test server only, or production servers as this could probably be a source of your discontent with your armor not performing as you would expect.
Title: Re: My struggle with ironflesh.
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on February 12, 2013, 05:09:49 pm
Hmh, this thread went the wrong way, I hope it servs as a reminder to those melee players who think about becoming an archer. Bottom line is, dont become what you hate. Make a STF instead. :D

Ill lock this.