cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Torben on January 10, 2013, 02:03:30 pm
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i'll list things up here that you think are good/bad about this change, so the devs can use our experience with it.
pros:
- to a certain degree more realistic, especially when dealing with light, stabby weapons that irl take several seconds to affect the victim
- Inertia. Combat has now been expanded to include more physics, which means that solid and heavy objects traveling at speed retain energy until they hit something, basically
cons:
- makes fighting with weaker, short weapons harder because they relied on their ability to interrupt;
maybe more forgiving sweetspots for short (1h) weapons could give some compensation here
- lancer cav: well placed attacks dont protect you against the enemy attack anymore, you or your horse get hit anyway.
skill matters less now, attacking aware opponents and other cav will result in damage or a reared horse most likely, depending on enemy class.
(- fighting a knockdown dude: you hit first, you still get knocked down and killed by second hit. cmp said he fixed that.)
(- str dude: he can just spam the shit out of everyone. ( second hit deals 1/2 damage, is it ok now?.)
keep it coming, anyone want to add something?
at some point ill add a pole for the different points to see if the player base is d'accord with them.
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Thrower can't jump-shoot anymore - rendering a lot of throwing gameplay useless
Headshots don't instakill anymore (PT7, MW Throwing Spear directly to the center of the head... dude walks away)
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Thrower can't jump-shoot anymore - rendering a lot of throwing gameplay useless
Headshots don't instakill anymore (PT7, MW Throwing Spear directly to the center of the head... dude walks away)
i think they wanted to make plate armor more realistic, most arrows cant pierce that. however throwing weapons should considerably damage the player because of the impact
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Thrower can't jump-shoot anymore - rendering a lot of throwing gameplay useless
Headshots don't instakill anymore (PT7, MW Throwing Spear directly to the center of the head... dude walks away)
although i value your input, this was more about the double hit phenomenon, which cmp want to keep tweaking for a while. I want to gather information here that he might consider whilst tweaking.
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I am sure you thought really hard about pros but just couldn't find any.
in some cases, realism
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I am sure you thought really hard about pros but just couldn't find any.
I did not think at all, its ingame experience. as you see i am not biased or anything, put the pros on top and am asking for everyone's experiences. so drop the sarcasm and chip in mate.
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Pros: Inertia. Combat has now been expanded to include more physics, which means that solid and heavy objects traveling at speed retain energy until they hit something, basically. What's not to like there?
the consequence of being hit without having made a mistake for instance. Inertia would imply that the object travels via the last vector it had before being released, and i would let that mofo go if i was hit midswing, sending it wherever but not to land a perfect hin on my enemy.
edit: that mofo being a heavy ass polearm btw ^^
never the less, added.
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pro: - to a certain degree more realistic, especially when dealing with light, stabby weapons that irl take several seconds to affect the victim
contra: - makes fighting with weaker, short weapons harder because they relied on their ability to interrupt;
maybe more forgiving sweetspots for short (1h) weapons could give some compensation here
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Imagine fighting Skono or Butan, for those that do not know, think 80 body armor, 13 ps and 80 if not 90 hp. Now in such a case where you manage to hit him before he hits you, but his hit hits you anyway, you are dead. If it was the other way around he would lose 10% hp.
Yeah, fuck that shit.
Apart from that it goes against the base mechanics on which this entire combat system is built on.
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Imagine fighting Skono or Butan, for those that do not know, think 80 body armor and 80 if not 90 hp. Now in such a case where you manage to hit him before he hits you, but his hit hits you anyway, you are dead. If it was the other way around he would lose 10% hp.
Yeah, fuck that shit.
or drz_nicko. all he does is right swing the live long day, and you is even more effective now im sure.
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Died at least 3 times thanks to this shit today. It is disaster for Agi Builds :cry:
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Win a duel versus another lancer, dies anyway.
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Just heppend before 5 mins ago.
Guy hits me and left me with 20% of hp, I hit him second after and he die. Why?
Because I was wearing 51 body armor, and guy just a visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Yellow Tunic - body armor:7
That is pretty much realistic future.
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I am trying to imagine just melee duel scenario here:
Only time a str crutcher would benefit from this intentionally is if he could know exactly when you will attack, so he could attack at the same time as you. But even than, he would lose HP and strategy based on losing HP is never an option for good players like Skono or Butan.
Basically, what we have here is a new element that deepens the melee combat, but is mostly effecting when one take a risk of breaking the attack-block-attack routine, but that was already risky before.
Or if he just spamms like most of them already do...
The other players dies after one or two hits and he just loses about 15%. Good deal if you ask me.
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cons:
- fighting a knockdown dude: you hit first, you still get knocked down and killed by second hit.
- str dude: he can just spam the shit out of everyone
ABout knockdown, perhaps the KD effect can be turned of in event of double hit?
Regarding str dude...not sure what to think about this, hmm...I mean if they lessen the window for double hit...it'll stay almost the same as before
or I'm missing something?
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Just heppend before 5 mins ago.
Guy hits me and left me with 20% of hp, I hit him second after and he die. Why?
Because I was wearing 51 body armor, and guy just a visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Yellow Tunic - body armor:7
That is pretty much realistic future.
I can tell you what happened. You are a spammer that needs such a stupid "feature" to win against people in peasant gear.
The better player should always win and not the one with the better armor.
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Died at least 3 times thanks to this shit today. It is disaster for Agi Builds
wow, 3 times. And how many hours did you play? Sure sounds like a disaster. Get a grip dude...
Just heppend before 5 mins ago.
Guy hits me and left me with 20% of hp, I hit him second after and he die. Why?
Yeah, you pretty much talking bs.
To my experience double hits only happen when both guys connect almost the same time. So you can still interrupt with fast weapons, you just have a slightly smaller window to do it than before. If you ask me this change is good and makes combat more fun and realistic.
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Better player did win. Why didn't the guy in cloth block and than attack? It looks to me like HE is the spammer.
Sagar attacks, yellow guy blocks. Yellow guy follows up with another attack, sagar starts a double-attack. Yellow guy takes some of his health but still get hit and dies by Sagar.
Not saying that's how it happens, but I doubt it will always reward the better players. :wink:
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Why do we have two threads on the same topic?
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wow, 3 times. And how many hours did you play? Sure sounds like a disaster. Get a grip dude...
Yeah, you pretty much talking bs.
To my experience double hits only happen when both guys connect almost the same time. So you can still interrupt with fast weapons, you just have a slightly smaller window to do it than before. If you ask me this change is good and makes combat more fun and realistic.
Today I hit 2h hero to face and died almost 1 second later. Truly connecting hit.
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Better player did win. Why didn't the guy in cloth block and than attack? It looks to me like HE is the spammer.
What Sagar was saying is that the mistake are paid more lethally for those who wear lighter armor. But isn't that why armor is there anyway?
So following this logic, when I see someone with lots of HP attacking me I should block just like normal then when it's "my turn" to hit and that this person is attacking again (that is, spamming), I have to block again because otherwise I will be hit and die ? And after having blocked that, as the same guy does the same thing again, I have to block again ? Do you see the problem here ?
Sagar attacks, yellow guy blocks. Yellow guy follows up with another attack, sagar starts a double-attack. Yellow guy takes some of his health but still get hit and dies by Sagar.
Not saying that's how it happens, but I doubt it will always reward the better players. :wink:
This.
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Better player did win. Why didn't the guy in cloth block and than attack? It looks to me like HE is the spammer.
It's quite ironic as interrupting attacks is a pretty basic way to deal with spammers :x
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So you are saying that cloth guy will always lose like that? Is the melee combat really that shallow? Let's go and test it on duels. You just keep attacking when I do, and let's see who wins.
I didn't say that. I said that I doubt it will always reward the skilled players, especially in forms of combat that is decided on small timing differences.
When you're fighting a skilled player and it's about catching him just a tiny amount of time before he hits you, so he won't just step back and block the attack. Feels bad getting hit when you actually play it right and beats him fair and square in your timing.. Fighting a great hiltslasher might also be a pain (won't say yay or nay on that one yet, since I haven't met the best ones since the patch), but considering how quick they can connect their attacks, their "spamming" might just've been a bit buffed, and I'm not sure I like that. Also, lance duels are fucked up. If you time better than your opponent and hits first but still lose because he stacked more armor than you and had more ps/loomed lance is just stupid.
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Next step, make agi function of blocking speed :wink:
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Basically, what we have here is a new element that deepens the melee combaT
Muahahahahaahahahhaahahahahahahha
Seriously though. Trading hits was shit in Chivalry, never tried it but from what i understood it was shit in WoTR and quite frankly it's shit for the Warband mechanics too. It might work for a new melee game one day , with balanced mechanics and physics, but so far it's only proven to be a complete piece of shit of a gameplay feature .
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Time for Kulin_ban to respec to mauler again :twisted:
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i see the main problem not when encountering a normal enemy but either knockdown, high damage guys or when the hole idea of frontal/ aware cav assault is being questioned.
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My feelings as 2h nub:
Maybe the 2nd hit should only deal 50% dmg (i dont care for realism but you could say this hit is inertia lacking the strength behind it).
Maybe the window should be shortenned as it happens quite often with 2h and it kind of ruins the main feature in the duels: make sure you hit first.
Needs more tweaking surely, lets be patient.
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Short version: cmp mad cause held swings yo! I say nab, he says ban.
Don't buy his explanation, mistake pfft. It's real like Meow's habbit to tell the truth lol
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My feelings as 2h nub:
Maybe the 2nd hit should only deal 50% dmg (i dont care for realism but you could say this hit is inertia lacking the strength behind it).
Maybe the window should be shortenned as it happens quite often with 2h and it kind of ruins the main feature in the duels: make sure you hit first.
Needs more tweaking surely, lets be patient.
this thread is just about that: helping them tweak it with our input. the changes you mentioned are already on cmps checklist afaik, he wants to lessen the timefrime by 10ms to 30 and do the 50% thing, which should also help with knockdown.
as a horselover id like to see something that helps the horse not to rear.
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this thread is just about that: helping them tweak it with our input. the changes you mentioned are already on cmps checklist afaik, he wants to lessen the timefrime by 10ms to 30 and do the 50% thing, which should also help with knockdown.
as a horselover id like to see something that helps the horse not to rear.
Already added in an update a couple of minutes ago. Also removed knockdown completely from the "second" hit. Will probably remove rearing from the "second" hit as well.
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I do like the fact that cRPG is still getting patches (even without patch notes), I don't like that such a big change was made that indirectly disadvantages some classes over others by a large amount. As has been mentioned by others and by me in several other threads, lancer cav has had a huge nerf due to the fact you now will most likely take damage whenever you go to deal any. Trading hits like this isn't very balanced when some classes such as ranged users can deal damage from a distance without as much risk of instantly losing HP as melee users (not only cav) do.
The main problem I face continually is if I hit first when they are going for a down attack, I deal my damage but then as their attack goes through, my horse is reared and I'm a sitting duck and get taken out either by the person I just hit or ranged from a distance since I'm stationary. It also seems, although this may just be in my head, because their attack still goes through, my speed may be reduced and so I deal less damage - I've noticed I very rarely one hit people now at full speed both thrusting and couching although it may be down to an increase in people using higher/heirloomed armour.
The whole meta for cav has been turned on it's head rendering lancer cav inferior to a lot of the alternative classes.
EDIT:
Will probably remove rearing from the "second" hit as well.
Thanks. Please make this happen.
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Already added in an update a couple of minutes ago. Also removed knockdown completely from the "second" hit. Will probably remove rearing from the "second" hit as well.
awesome : )
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awesome : )
Not really, just remove it completely :wink:
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Already added in an update a couple of minutes ago. Also removed knockdown completely from the "second" hit. Will probably remove rearing from the "second" hit as well.
A step in the right direction!
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A step in the right direction!
As in, just removing it and concentrating their efforts on something more useful and interesting.
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As in, just removing it and concentrating their efforts on something more useful and interesting.
Like new items for example... :D
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This fucking tone makes me sick, but well, maybe you deserve it i wouldn't know.
Thx for news, i didn't like the idea behind this new feature but with a bit of thought i believe it can be good if you do it right, already giving the finger to agiwhores is a plus.
If your plan is to slow some weapons i would prefer a block nerf to keep the duels challenging and skilled, but this could also work what the fuck do i know?
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Already added in an update a couple of minutes ago. Also removed knockdown completely from the "second" hit. Will probably remove rearing from the "second" hit as well.
Still awful.
Get someone who knows how to play the game to do balance changes thanks.
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Still awful.
Get someone who knows how to play the game to do balance changes thanks.
Ok, you're hired. Please send me new item stats and ideas for mechanics ASAP.
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he stole my job!
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If you make something shit half as shit, it is still shit.
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Ok, you're hired. Please send me new item stats and ideas for mechanics ASAP.
Remove horses.
edit: But this is the reason why I didn't donate to that new game, because you have no idea how to do balance which is the most important part of a game, and refuse to listen to other peoples ideas and ridicule them because you can't be wrong right? Stop being such a fucking asshole and learn that you don't know half as much as you think you do about why people like this game.
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Remove horses.
edit: But this is the reason why I didn't donate to that new game, because you have no idea how to do balance which is the most important part of a game, and refuse to listen to other peoples ideas and ridicule them because you can't be wrong right? Stop being such a fucking asshole and learn that you don't know half as much as you think you do about why people like this game.
you play this game quite a lot for not liking it.
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you play this game quite a lot for not liking it.
I like this game alot, but it gets worse every patch and makes me play less and less every time. I'm not gonna stop playing completely because it gets worse but it ruins my enjoyment and makes me play less.
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For this dark side of the devs i believe you can expect a better job in the new game.
They will have full control, no need to compromise with a code they can't change.
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I like this game alot, but it gets worse every patch and makes me play less and less every time. I'm not gonna stop playing completely because it gets worse but it ruins my enjoyment and makes me play less.
fair enough, and i feel ya. cant say that i'm having less fun then before, but thats just me.
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Today few times happened to me: my horse half buried in body of archer/xbower/thrower still was able to release shot and kill my horse instead get bump.
Hope this is not new feature of this addon.
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Today few times happened to me: my horse half buried in body of archer/xbower/thrower still was able to release shot and kill my horse instead get bump.
Hope this is not new feature of this addon.
It's not. Horse bump deals damage (and interrupts) instantly like it always did.
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Normally archer try to avoid horse now better ones are standing still until last moment.
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Normally archer try to avoid horse now better ones are standing still until last moment.
What you just said there makes absolutely no sense.
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Not saying that's how it happens, but I doubt it will always reward the better players. :wink:
Batter players? That Is one that last standing. :wink:
In this way are rewarded those who wear better armor - just like in Medieval times. And in the end it is the purpose of armor - to protect and mitigate blows to the body.
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Batter players? That Is one that last standing. :wink:
In this way are rewarded those who wear better armor - just like in Medieval times. And in the end it is the purpose of armor - to protect and mitigate blows to the body.
hm, one could look at it as an indirect buff to heavy armor, giving them more viability back. interesting.
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Batter players? That Is one that last standing. :wink:
In this way are rewarded those who wear better armor - just like in Medieval times. And in the end it is the purpose of armor - to protect and mitigate blows to the body.
So what you're saying is that you're the better player since you're the last one standing and then admitting it's your heavier armor making you the winner.
Armor = Skill then? :lol:
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Batter players? That Is one that last standing. :wink:
In this way are rewarded those who wear better armor - just like in Medieval times. And in the end it is the purpose of armor - to protect and mitigate blows to the body.
You won't like yourself for saying that when you will need 10 hits to kill anybody.
Also, for you the better players are 13 shield build users ? Interesting.
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Batter players? That Is one that last standing. :wink:
In this way are rewarded those who wear better armor - just like in Medieval times. And in the end it is the purpose of armor - to protect and mitigate blows to the body.
Please stop the fucking realism sperging out bullshit... and for that better player bullshit, now that's just fucking idiotic, if Chase attacked a guy with a wooden stick and 0ps while the guy had 80 bodyarmor and a full str build then the random generic tincan must be a better player than Chase!
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Armor = Skill then? :lol:
Just seeing what we want, are we?
He clearly stated ONLY that better player is that who is last one alive, and that in defeating other players better armor will help. If better armor does not help, why aren't all good players running around with cloth and wooden swords? Because armor and IF help.
That doesn't make any sense at all. Ofcourse better armor and IF help a lot but skill should always be more important than stacking gear.
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Because armor and IF help.
So because they do, they need to help more ?
Kulin ban logic ?
p.p.s Still butthurt over today's forum dispute, kafein?
I had illusions of you being a nice person and all.
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I am not "butthurt" or anything like this Kulin. I am downvoting some of your posts because in my opinion you are just plain wrong on this topic.
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All of a sudden having a different opinion means that one is not nice person.
Come on we differ more than that.
Anyway I don't hold grudges. Not long. Most of the time I mean. Except that guy that threatened me so he could cheat on me in high school, then hit me when I framed him. I mean what a moron. Let's be friends.
Also I still think your opinion on this issue is crap and I downvoted according to this.
For me even if this change is minimal, it is wrong. As Teeth so elegantly said, half shit is still shit. I haven't played enough time and with enough different setups to precisely assess the effects. But I understand the change and the game mechanics enough to say that the simplest effect of allowing people with high HP/armor to make (even more) errors and still get a reward for them is bad. Even when considering this without taking balance into account but only gameplay, it's bad.
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Why do we have two threads on the same topic?
The amount of stupidity Kulin_Ban and Sagar put out was to much for just one thread, it would implode.
I think you can keep this change, but only if Sagar only can use peasant gear and short, fast, weak weapons that rely on interrupting, then it would be fine with me.
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Yeah, the sad part is that the devs implement shit like this into the game, instead of new, nice features that actually makes the game more fun, instead of just making you mad. I can totally understand if you want to experiment a bit for the new game you're developing, but why not experiment when you got that ready?
So far the only people who seem to like this change on the forums are Kulin_Ban, who plays archer, and Sagar, who just want to be able to crutch armor to win.
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Yeah, the sad part is that the devs implement shit like this into the game, instead of new, nice features that actually makes the game more fun, instead of just making you mad. I can totally understand if you want to experiment a bit for the new game you're developing, but why not experiment when you got that ready?
So far the only people who seem to like this change on the forums are Kulin_Ban, who plays archer, and Sagar, who just want to be able to crutch armor to win.
Butz zeh mozt skillzd player is zhe one with zhe mozt armzorz!! RELIZM!!!
Please implement a feature which puts random letters into everything you type because IRL people couldn't spell that well back then.
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List of the people who like turn rate nerf is probably even shorter, but the feature is still in. Your point?
We don't need more bad changes... Durr
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Huh if this works as you guys describe it, it will be a huge boost to my style of fighting xD
Outgear and outspam people, the more damage you deal, the more rounds won and valor gained.
I dont think its good for the game though, unless you like seeing plate armor and highdmg weapons being always the best choice.
Once it reaches EU2 i will feel the impact.
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ive had some great moments with this collision. only played my hybrid couhing 1handed shielder cav/inf thow. cool moments: killing a piker with a slash to the head while he goes for my horse, killing lancer witch couch because he went for my horse,(both instances my horse died, but somehow to me it felt like a buff for this spesific class since you are not lost when players decide to go for your horse) . for the rest in general the collision makes for great moments on the battle field.
the cons are indeed a feeling of loss of control somewhat. and i also felt like my 1 handed weapon was being stunned way more by heavier weapons, but i could be wrong there, fighting str armor crutchers was indeed a pain. getting 3 hits in and then 4th collides and he 1shot me :(. but ye will need to test with more of my alts and main. sofar i kind of personnaly like the changes.
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Its a total nerf to skill in my opinion, i don't like it.
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Your opinion is cabbage.
And cabbage is healthy for all.
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remove this shit.
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anyone have an example where this business can be used in a new technique, so one could call it "making room for new skills"? atm it feels more like randomness, which is a skill nerf imo.
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Pros:
-Breaking the attack/block/attack rhythm(doesn't really break it, just adds a few instances that will cause people to block twice).
-Adds risk to holds, which were by far too effective for how little risk there was/still will be. Likely this will buff chamber attempts.
Cons:
-More defensive playing. Increased risk disproportionately while maintaining either the same, or lesser level of reward. Further solidifying the necessity of high armor among melee characters.
-Ping fluctuations being greater than the window of opportunity for double hits. My ping in the mornings (When I prefer to play) is about 30-35, my ping at night is 70~. So learning what the threshold looks like for .03 seconds in the morning, will result in my receiving more double hits in the evening.
I suggest increasing the window to .05 seconds at least so that it feels less random. The more concrete a thing seems, the more likely players are to adapt to it, rather than pass it off as just a random occurrence. This will slow combat down further, but increase depth ultimately. There will always be ways to speed combat up, and a new wpf formula can help with that.
I disagree with the Inertia pro, not because it isn't true, but because it's only there due to the inability to block and attack with the same motion, aka game mechanics limitations.