cRPG

cRPG => Scene Editing => Topic started by: Fips on December 19, 2012, 07:34:46 pm

Title: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 19, 2012, 07:34:46 pm
http://mountandblade.nexusmods.com/mods/3882

Siege
(click to show/hide)

Battle
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 19, 2012, 08:14:25 pm
It appears from the screens that there is a way to big distance from attacker spawns to the flag, doubt it'll be winnable for the attackers.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 19, 2012, 08:35:07 pm
It appears from the screens that there is a way to big distance from attacker spawns to the flag, doubt it'll be winnable for the attackers.

~40secs to get there. 10-15 if you use horse. Once the gates are opened ofc. Thought about removing the 2nd gates before uploading it, but i think without the 2nd gates it will be very hard to defend...
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 19, 2012, 09:52:17 pm
~40secs to get there. 10-15 if you use horse. Once the gates are opened ofc. Thought about removing the 2nd gates before uploading it, but i think without the 2nd gates it will be very hard to defend...
40 sec is way to long I'm afraid, especially considering that defense usually has some defensive advantage in siege.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 19, 2012, 10:07:45 pm
40 sec is way to long I'm afraid, especially considering that defense usually has some defensive advantage in siege.

Well, jacko told me that 50-60 seconds are standard oO
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 20, 2012, 12:06:22 am
Honestly, 40 seconds to flag isn't that bad. I've played worse. Also remember that we have that new system set up where the attackers make progress and start spawning closer to the flag. Really though, we won't know until it's played.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 25, 2012, 07:02:57 pm
Next project: Helms Deep (in winter). Got the green light from jacko to build it =D
Probably everyone knows how it looks, anybody got some tips balance-wise before i start building it? Oh, and is it possible to make that little river without using the terrain generator?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jacko on December 25, 2012, 09:32:18 pm
When creating terrain it's preferable to start with a flat ish map and then raise and lower in layers. If you want to make your own river, set the terrain brush to minus, cut out the general shape, smooth were needed and paint in the details.

It's never a good idea to use any of the preset stuff from the editor, it usually leaves artifacts when  changing it.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 26, 2012, 02:33:59 am
Next project: Helms Deep (in winter). Got the green light from jacko to build it =D
Probably everyone knows how it looks, anybody got some tips balance-wise before i start building it? Oh, and is it possible to make that little river without using the terrain generator?

Helm's Deep eh?

My friend, CtrlAltDe1337, made a Helm's Deep some years ago. You can find it here: http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2519
(click to show/hide)

Might be useful to see another's attempt at doing Helm's Deep.

Good luck! I look forward to seeing it someday.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Camaris on December 26, 2012, 10:10:03 am
Helm's Deep eh?

My friend, CtrlAltDe1337, made a Helm's Deep some years ago. You can find it here: http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2519
(click to show/hide)

Might be useful to see another's attempt at doing Helm's Deep.

Good luck! I look forward to seeing it someday.

Its good to see this map as an example how helms deep isnt working with siege in crpg.
It looks nice but the path to the flag is so f***** long. With some work on spawns it could have been a real solid map.
Take it as an example how it could look but how it shouldnt be balanced.

Helms Deep is probably one of those maps that would work best with new siege mode. (if it ever comes)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 26, 2012, 11:28:56 am
@jacko: Yeah, i noticed that. Tried to work with many hills on terrain, didn't work and now i'm building it on flat area, last thing i will add are the mountains and the river (Which i still didn't figure out how to make it without that water-prop?! I only get water when the area really is down below 0)

@Thranduil: Yes, i saw this one already some time ago, doesn't look bad, but i'd rather make it as close to the movie as possible. Will steal some ideas, though. =D

@Neresto: My version will probably be even bigger, but once it's done i'm trying to balance it out with the spawnpoints. How many and which spawnpoints are used for the initial spawn? First spawn shouldn't be too close to the castle, but after the first one on a map like this it's probably a good idea to let attackers spawn very close to the walls/gatehouse or even in the yard behind the walls. But then again, might be even hard to defend if attackers spawn too close.
Anyway, it's probably better to discuss this after i know how long it would take attackers to get to flag. I will get back to you with some screens in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jacko on December 26, 2012, 11:37:35 am
You only get water when the terrain is below 0, that's the only way. My advice is to place the water as early as possible, and build the terrain around it. There is a water prop, but it's not really functional.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 26, 2012, 11:44:20 am
You only get water when the terrain is below 0, that's the only way. My advice is to place the water as early as possible, and build the terrain around it. There is a water prop, but it's not really functional.

Okay, that's not going to work then. I will try the prop anyway, if it doesn't work, there won't be a river then. It's winter anyway, maybe it's frozen, lol.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 03:26:42 pm
You only get water when the terrain is below 0, that's the only way. My advice is to place the water as early as possible, and build the terrain around it. There is a water prop, but it's not really functional.
You could also place a million water props, however that's really messy unless you're placing them all on terrain of the exact same height level.
Okay, that's not going to work then. I will try the prop anyway, if it doesn't work, there won't be a river then. It's winter anyway, maybe it's frozen, lol.
Why wouldn't it work? All it'd require would be making the base ground of the map like level 1 or 2 then lowering it and raising it were needed?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 26, 2012, 04:56:16 pm
You could also place a million water props, however that's really messy unless you're placing them all on terrain of the exact same height level.Why wouldn't it work? All it'd require would be making the base ground of the map like level 1 or 2 then lowering it and raising it were needed?

This river is coming from a huge mountain. Never actually saw that kind of river in M&B. Either i place it like it would actually look like, flowing down the mountain, or i don't place it at all. But i think i'll be just fine with the 2nd option, tried that water prop...it looked, well, interesting.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Tomas on December 26, 2012, 06:05:54 pm
This river is coming from a huge mountain. Never actually saw that kind of river in M&B. Either i place it like it would actually look like, flowing down the mountain, or i don't place it at all. But i think i'll be just fine with the 2nd option, tried that water prop...it looked, well, interesting.

Place it flowing from under the mountain.  There are caves after all and from memory this is where the water flowed from.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 06:35:52 pm
This river is coming from a huge mountain. Never actually saw that kind of river in M&B. Either i place it like it would actually look like, flowing down the mountain, or i don't place it at all. But i think i'll be just fine with the 2nd option, tried that water prop...it looked, well, interesting.
Can't be placed flowing down a mountain, due to the way warband handles water the water shader (and drowning bar) will be applied whenever you're bellow the highest water prop, even if you're not actually standing beneath the props.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 26, 2012, 08:15:00 pm
Can't be placed flowing down a mountain, due to the way warband handles water the water shader (and drowning bar) will be applied whenever you're bellow the highest water prop, even if you're not actually standing beneath the props.

Wait....seriously? So does that mean that on this map:
(click to show/hide)
everyone would drown?....That would be one reason why it was removed ages ago.

Or does it apply in the y and z axes as well? The water prop is not the easiest to make use of imo and it looks pretty different from actual water in the game unless you're using DX9 (dummy devs).


On a more constructive note: if the mountain wherefore the spring cometh is far from players' reach or at least is not in the players' path, you may find yourself able to do use both the river water prop and actual water below level 0. Combine the two in a similar manner as the picture above so it looks like the water really is coming from the mountain.


Or not since everyone would drown....aw hell. Be back in 10. I'm gonna test this shit out!

**Update** Tested water prop for drowning with and without using WSE2. In neither case did drowning occur because of water_river prop. For reference, I tested normal drowning. I drowned. YAAAAAAY!
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 08:36:40 pm
Everyone not above that should drown, yes. Or at least everyone should see the underwater view.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 26, 2012, 08:43:06 pm
Hmmm.... so vertical water is a no go now. Ergkh....

..... or is it?  8-)

Quote
**Update** Tested water prop for drowning with and without using WSE2. In neither case did drowning occur because of water_river prop. For reference, I tested normal drowning. I drowned. YAAAAAAY!

Go for it Fip!
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 26, 2012, 09:39:16 pm
Well, i can place the creek on the lower grounds without problems, but as already mentioned, water prop looks ugly. Tested it on random mountains and failed horribly, and before all those mountains around are finished i really can't go for it =P
But the cave-idea is nice, i'll take a look for a good prop.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 26, 2012, 10:07:28 pm
Quote
**Update** Tested water prop for drowning with and without using WSE2. In neither case did drowning occur because of water_river prop. For reference, I tested normal drowning. I drowned. YAAAAAAY!

Must be different in native then.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 27, 2012, 03:37:38 am
Okay, here are some screens how far i've come until now:

http://imgur.com/nI4qQ

http://imgur.com/59C0L

http://imgur.com/r2WHX

http://imgur.com/jTieQ

Still needs gates/doors/spawnpoints/ladders(siegetower, maybe), vegetation, buildings and some little details, but the structure is finished. Whaddaya think?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 27, 2012, 07:25:41 am
Okay, here are some screens how far i've come until now:

http://imgur.com/nI4qQ

http://imgur.com/59C0L

http://imgur.com/r2WHX

http://imgur.com/jTieQ

Still needs gates/doors/spawnpoints/ladders(siegetower, maybe), vegetation, buildings and some little details, but the structure is finished. Whaddaya think?

Hmm... Firstly, I shall let start the criticism part of the critique (don't worry. should be short. though I feel the need to download and scour over every detail.....*ahem* fanatic talking here.  :oops:)

1.  The Deeping Wall is approximately 20 ft tall and 4 men could stand abreast. Your Deeping Wall appears to be taller (though if it is only taller, then I would venture a guess that the width is only half as wide as the aforementioned 4 men standing abreast, based on my own past use of this prop.) which may serve better for the game than perfect accuracy would. It's a little hard to gauge size based on your little man standing in the cold. :P

2.  I do not see any way for fighters to go from the Deeping Wall to the Keep, unless it's that "tunnel" behind the Keep that you can't quite see into very well in the pics. I imagine though, that this is where one can get to the Keep from the Deeping Wall. If so, this particular complaint/critique is null.

3.  As I said before, it's hard to gauge what the size of this map really is. It appears quite large. Like, LARGE. Possibly overly so. Again, may be just fine with 30+ people scrambling about, but at the moment, it's hard to gauge.


Okay, criticism aside now...

Damn fine job working with the texturing and coloring of the terrain.
I like the water running from the cave. Behind the Deep were the Glittering Caves, so we've got a "Glittering Cave".

So far, other than my meager complaints, it looks pretty good. Out of curiousity, were you basing this more off the movie or the book?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 27, 2012, 11:50:41 am
Will upload it once i feel like it's completely done =P

20ft is 6m and it's probably like 10m high, but since i used the same length/width on a bunch of props, i think i let it stay this way xD
Especially the area above the river-gate took me like for ever to build.
It is about 5 men broad, though, so that's actually accurate =D

Yes, the little passage on the second picture is the entrance to a tunnel that will lead right to the flag area. I will probably add a ladder from the wall or the ground behind the front wall to the first wall of the keep as well, so nobody is forced to go up those stairs. Apropos ladders: I was thinking 3 ladders to the front wall, 1 ladder right on top of the first wall of the keep and the one i already mentioned. Destroyable gate (Otherwise going up the bridge after initial spawn will be useless, fixed gate would make this impossibru to attack i think) and i was thinking about 1 destroyable door at the tunnel in the back.

Yeah it's large and i try to balance things out with spawnpoints. Attackers spawn center will be at the attackers camp a little farer from the walls, but all the other spawn points will be placed on the bridge and right infront of the ladders that lead up to the front wall, i might even set a couple of them behind the front wall.

Thx, keep the criticque coming! I only watched the movie (Shame on me, but sooner or later i will read the books as well) so it's based on screenshots of the movie and replicas that are out there, well and since the editor sucks, what the editor allowed me to do xP
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 27, 2012, 08:42:49 pm
Will upload it once i feel like it's completely done =P
:cry: Alright. I'll wait.

20ft is 6m and it's probably like 10m high, but since i used the same length/width on a bunch of props, i think i let it stay this way xD
Especially the area above the river-gate took me like for ever to build.
It is about 5 men broad, though, so that's actually accurate =D
I think that will be fine. In this case, proportionality may be more important than literary accuracy. Besides. I know the feeling. I hate having to go back and redo something that took me an hour or more just to get the details right.

Yes, the little passage on the second picture is the entrance to a tunnel that will lead right to the flag area. I will probably add a ladder from the wall or the ground behind the front wall to the first wall of the keep as well, so nobody is forced to go up those stairs. Apropos ladders: I was thinking 3 ladders to the front wall, 1 ladder right on top of the first wall of the keep and the one i already mentioned. Destroyable gate (Otherwise going up the bridge after initial spawn will be useless, fixed gate would make this impossibru to attack i think) and i was thinking about 1 destroyable door at the tunnel in the back.
Sounds good. You definitely want a destroyable gate. It really would be impossible to attack I think.

Yeah it's large and i try to balance things out with spawnpoints. Attackers spawn center will be at the attackers camp a little farer from the walls, but all the other spawn points will be placed on the bridge and right infront of the ladders that lead up to the front wall, i might even set a couple of them behind the front wall.
Good. I was just thinking those exact things....except for putting a couple attacker spawns behind front wall. Trust me, defenders will probably complain. (Of course, everybody complains about something. :P) However, I'd wait for a second opinion before throwing that idea out altogether.


Thx, keep the criticque coming! I only watched the movie (Shame on me, but sooner or later i will read the books as well) so it's based on screenshots of the movie and replicas that are out there, well and since the editor sucks, what the editor allowed me to do xP
Gladly! It seems to be coming along quite nicely thus far.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 27, 2012, 09:05:48 pm
Yeah, no more spawns in the castle. Added some tents to make it look like there are actually people in the castle and spawning as attacker there would be just weird.
Besides, you don't have to wait that long. 2 days top and i'll be done, maybe even tomorrow.

I never thought mapping could be that much fun. Finally playing on it will be sexy =D
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Varadin on December 28, 2012, 12:15:32 am
Sexy map , i really like it , still needs a lot to be done, a back door where aragorn and gimli jumped on orcs taht were breaking the front main doors :)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 28, 2012, 04:23:00 am
I actually have no idea what details to add into the keep =O
Could add a bunch of barrels, sacks, bushes or stuff like that, but first, there is no vegetation on any screenshot taken from the movie, plus it's winter, so even bushes won't be very "real", second i thought the keep is mainly for the forces to be there, so why would there be any useless stuff in the way?
All the stuff defenders need is in the tents below, actually added quite some detail there =)
Agree/Disagree?

I added the attackers base, without tents, just some catas and trebuchets. Whoever force attacked that castle was no good and didnt really need tents? lol
Y/N?

Added the back door to the gate, added all the spawns, siege equipment should work just fine, walked everywhere without getting bugged or glitched and it is actually finished. At least if you guys don't find anything to change =D

So, too bad i have NO idea how this will be balanced. Longest walk to flag is over 2minutes long, shortest way possible should be about 1 minute , if you are a slowass tincan. If you have some ath you should be there in even under 1 minute, depending on the spawn ofc. The spawns infront of the gate are the shortest, but since there are only 3, i wouldn't take them into account too much. Cav helps a lot here as well.

Okay, enough talk, the file and some new screenshots:

http://mountandblade.nexusmods.com/mods/3882

http://imgur.com/raDAR  (What the colours mean should be quite obvious...)

http://imgur.com/nav7L

http://imgur.com/yMIlN

http://imgur.com/c32ED


If you have any idea what details to add into it, feel free to do so and upload the new version so i can check it out =P
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Varadin on December 28, 2012, 03:37:55 pm
Maybe if you could change those tents you have put inside of the castle , they look more like persian ones. Im not sure if there are any other kind of tents but if there ar you could add me ...also i dont like the color / texture of the castle walls ...shouldnt they be more like darker and greyer ?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 28, 2012, 05:28:06 pm
Maybe if you could change those tents you have put inside of the castle , they look more like persian ones. Im not sure if there are any other kind of tents but if there ar you could add me ...also i dont like the color / texture of the castle walls ...shouldnt they be more like darker and greyer ?

There are only those 2 types of tents in m&b and i cannot change the texture of the walls. I mean, it's winter after all, can't it be a little brighter? Besides, the actual Hornburg is not that dark, just take a look at the screens while it's still daylight. But yeah, it should look older, more used, maybe even another colour , but M&B has a crappy editor so i can't do anything about that =(
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 28, 2012, 08:43:59 pm
Actually, the color of the walls isn't too far off from the color of the rocks...which is good since the Keep was carved out of the very rock itself.
If it is nighttime, then everything will probably seem darker.

After the Nexus forums are back up (can't connect atm) I'll download the file and terrain code and take a look around. If there's anything I add, I'll screenshot and upload for you.

I don't think there are any other tent styles in the editor. If I feel adventurous, I'll see if I can't rig up some tents out of other props. But in the end, the focus in the battle won't be around the tents, but near the armory and stables (aka at the flag).

Looking at it is actually giving me flashbacks to playing The Two Towers Battle of Helm's Deep on my Gamecube years ago. (need to emulate that thing.)

As for the side passage Gimli and Aragorn took (I don't think there was a side passage in the book and it was Aragorn and Eomer who went, though Gimli tagged along and enjoyed their sport until he was needed. :P...*AHEM* sorry...rant..) I don't think it should be added if it hasn't yet. Attackers cannot get to it, and in the past (the older map) it became a distinct advantage for defenders. With a map this size, really you want to try to put defenders at some disadvantage.

Good news is, if the new siege system is ever finished, I remember it promising longer battle times (9~12 minutes) and capturable spawns (which this map would be ideal for).

....There might have been a dead tree somewhere near the Dikes (not in your map and actually far out from the Deep) that the Uruks and Dunlanders cut for a battering ram...... Just trying to remember things. Been a decade since I read the book. :P


Still, looks good.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on December 28, 2012, 09:01:15 pm
Already added it as you may see in the screens. Defenders can get there, but from the distance i guess you really need some athletics to actually get there and not fall down, but that needs some real testing on the servers.

Yes, new siege mode would be the best thing happening to this mod right now. =D
Creating huge castles (Larger than helms deep and more complex) would be the shit!

If you can make another tent out of the existing props, i'll be very impressed =P
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on December 28, 2012, 09:10:12 pm
Already added it as you may see in the screens. Defenders can get there, but from the distance i guess you really need some athletics to actually get there and not fall down, but that needs some real testing on the servers.

Yes, new siege mode would be the best thing happening to this mod right now. =D
Creating huge castles (Larger than helms deep and more complex) would be the shit!

If you can make another tent out of the existing props, i'll be very impressed =P

Ooohhh....challenge accepted.  :mrgreen:



*Edit*

Your tent, my liege.

(click to show/hide)

I'm inclined to say that the persian tents will work just fine. Using awning props is a little bulky.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 08, 2013, 05:36:56 pm
hey, why is this thread so dead? come on fips!!!
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on January 08, 2013, 05:50:08 pm
I am already working on the Details to Ishtar, rough structure and ground texture is done. Will upload screens and stuff when it's done. And for the first two maps i need to wait until they are in before i can do anything. Especially Helms Deep will probably need a lot of balancing to do xD
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on January 14, 2013, 11:27:36 am
Aaaand it's done. Next one will be some kind of siege within a town =)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on January 14, 2013, 11:28:48 am
Aaaand it's done. Next one will be some kind of siege within a town =)
love the idea, im dying for something else than these stupid climb over the walls and go to the flag sieges :)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on January 14, 2013, 12:03:02 pm
love the idea, im dying for something else than these stupid climb over the walls and go to the flag sieges :)

There will be a wall, too, ofc. But it won't be necessary to get up there.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 05, 2013, 03:16:42 pm
fips was there during the testing so he already knows it, but burg rabenstein is untakable. i suggest making the front gate destroyable and/or making the castle not so wide so its easier to go bd.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 05, 2013, 04:45:54 pm
Just fyi, if Erzengel didn't fuck up the map-change, attackers would have won the second round. so it's definitely not impossible. I would like to see them on the server a second time before i change anything, though. I mean, people didn't even know you could get right to the flag if you break down the backdoor until me and 2 other guys got there =)
Plus, people were just charging towards the flag instead of opening the gate, i hope in the next try people will see how important that damn gate is.

But yeah, here's what i have in my mind after the first rounds on my maps:

Burg_Rabenstein:
- smaller lake, smaller bridge, replacing the bridge on the right
- ladder/wooden plank/whatever from attackers spawn to the way to backdoor (Another bridge wouldn't make any sense)
- spawn closer to castle so defenders don't spawn inside the lake
- more defenders spawns close and/or inside the flag area

Ishtar:
- more defenders spawns inside the inner castle
- ladder from the inner castle to the walls outside, so defenders can interfer with attackers crushing down the 2nd gate
- a way for defenders to get from the bridge right next to the gate to the outer walls (You had to go down first and then up the walls again to get to the gatehouse, which is kinda annoying, plus attackers get there too quickly, and gatehouse is very important on this one)

Helms_Deep:
(I actually thought that it went quite well. The expected 3:0 victory for defenders did ofc happen, but attackers constantly were close to flag after minute 3 or even 4. Plus, attackers spawned almost exclusively on the wall on the left, which was not what i intended)
- attackers spawns will be rethought completely and closer to the castle, more spawns on the bridge to the gate, less on the left wall
- less defenders spawn next to flag, more at the first wall of the keep
- will rebuild the ground leading to the keep, now that i played it on the actual server it feels very wrong



Oh, and there is always the fact that if you play a map for the first time and have no idea where to go, it will most likely be unbalanced. So i will keep an eye on mine, maybe they don't turn out to be just as bad.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 06, 2013, 02:45:29 pm
helms deep turned out to be a 'just fight at the flag' map (this morning, very little players online). people just broke the front gates and ran to the flag.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Thranduil on March 06, 2013, 10:12:26 pm
helms deep turned out to be a 'just fight at the flag' map (this morning, very little players online). people just broke the front gates and ran to the flag.

I find that to be the case for all seige maps if there aren't enough players online (ie. under 20).
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Crob28 on March 08, 2013, 09:21:54 pm
on the burg rabenstein map a few less trees in the background would be nice for those of us on crappy machines :P but otherwise very nice stuff dude
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Tagora on March 09, 2013, 06:15:44 am
Hey helms deep map is awesome, thank you!

Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jarold on March 09, 2013, 06:33:19 am
I don't mean to bash your maps but burg_rabenstein and helms deep are way too big for siege. But helms deep does look really nice.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 09, 2013, 10:51:06 am
I don't mean to bash your maps but burg_rabenstein and helms deep are way too big for siege. But helms deep does look really nice.

Already working on it. Castles will stay as big as they are, but i will reset the spawns (as said in my previous post), so it's actually playable.

@Crob: Stop playing on a potato then xP
But yeah, i will try to reduce the numbers, as long as it looks the same way from the front.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Latvian on March 09, 2013, 11:36:43 am
http://mountandblade.nexusmods.com/mods/3882

Burg_Rabenstein
(click to show/hide)
V1.1: -fixed flying props, smoothed terrain, deleted 2nd stone bridge, added wooden bridge, added a lot more details, smoother ground textures

Helms_Deep
(click to show/hide)

Ishtar
(click to show/hide)
Burg_Rabenstein is terrible for people with weaker computers like me it is barely playable. :(maybe remove some trees in some corner of the map?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 10, 2013, 06:51:51 pm
Updated all 3 of my maps. See the OP for "changelog"  :D
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Tindel on March 10, 2013, 11:29:18 pm
I have not played helms deep yet, but i really hate ishtar and burg, and here is why.

Attackers have to run too far, too few ways in, too big maps, not enough access to gatemechanism, breakable doors everywhere, bottlenecks, no good areas for fighting

Defenders cant access their castles properly, too big maps, too far to run, not enough access to gatemechanism,  bottlenecks, no good areas for fighting

So what to do..... maybe blast them with a shrink ray and make them smaller,  move attacker spawn closer, redo gatehouses so you can enter from below, add ladders and shit inside castle so there are more than 1 or two ways to go. Ladder acess to walls from the inside, and giving attackers a way to get down, having some way for defenders to leave flag area at all would be nice.

Right now its alot of running and running and running and hacking doors and hacking doors and hacking doors and a huge clusterfuck fight where you cant move and then one team wins hurray.

Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 10, 2013, 11:57:37 pm
I have not played helms deep yet, but i really hate ishtar and burg, and here is why.

Attackers have to run too far, too few ways in, too big maps, not enough access to gatemechanism, breakable doors everywhere, bottlenecks, no good areas for fighting

Defenders cant access their castles properly, too big maps, too far to run, not enough access to gatemechanism,  bottlenecks, no good areas for fighting

So what to do..... maybe blast them with a shrink ray and make them smaller,  move attacker spawn closer, redo gatehouses so you can enter from below, add ladders and shit inside castle so there are more than 1 or two ways to go. Ladder acess to walls from the inside, and giving attackers a way to get down, having some way for defenders to leave flag area at all would be nice.

Right now its alot of running and running and running and hacking doors and hacking doors and hacking doors and a huge clusterfuck fight where you cant move and then one team wins hurray.

Just read what i've changed pls. I solved a lot of stuff that you just mentioned.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Tindel on March 12, 2013, 12:34:10 am
Ok i just got helms deep,  ITS TOO BIG. Seriously it takes sooooo long to reach flag even with a rouncey.
Spending 75% of my time just moving as attacker. Only last minute on every round actually has any combat.

I guess its not possible just to scale it down 50-75%? Then we might have time to fight.

Inside the walls there is a huuuuuuge slope that you are more or less forced to fight on to gain control of the doors( that you have to destroy)
So apart from a few areas on the walls, and flag courtyard, there is no real place to fight at all.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 12, 2013, 01:25:53 am
Impossible^^

Meh, okay, here's what i did exactly to the spawns: Initial spawn is right next to the beginning of the bridge, EVERY other spawn is either right next to the big ladder, on the wall left (Close to the ladder leading on the first wall) and on the bridge. So once the gate is down, some attackers will take like 20 secs to the flag if the fastest way is undefended. Only if you happen to spawn at the initial spawn again it will take you the time it does now. I've seen attackers winning on helms deep, so once the updated version is on it should be a lot more balanced.

You don't have to use that slope, you know. There's a stairway leading to the first wall and then the bridge right to the flag.
I've tried to use stairs instead of that slope, but it turned out very fucking ugly and it would have been basically the same slope, just with stairs.
But yeah, i might get rid of those doors, after the the new version is tested.


So, once again, before you make any conclusions or suggestions, i would like you guys to wait for the update. Especially Rabenstein and Helms Deep will play A LOT different than now. Ishtar not that much, but defenders will have it easier than it is now.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Tindel on March 12, 2013, 03:08:41 pm
If attackers spawn right outside walls, and there are ladders + stairs added inside the walls and keep.
That would maybe create some more fighting and less running xD

Oh btw do you have any topdown view screenshots/maps of those castles?  From above looking straight down. Then one could paint and show which areas fighting occur and where bottlenecks are etc.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 12, 2013, 05:07:31 pm
If attackers spawn right outside walls, and there are ladders + stairs added inside the walls and keep.
That would maybe create some more fighting and less running xD

Oh btw do you have any topdown view screenshots/maps of those castles?  From above looking straight down. Then one could paint and show which areas fighting occur and where bottlenecks are etc.

http://imgur.com/mvMQ8eP

Well, i really thought 3 ways to the inner keep would have been enough. Yeah, adding ladders would be no problem. And yes, the walking will be a lot less now, spawns are very close, though i can make it even closer.

Another thing i might do if the next version doesn't work as well, is, to make parts of the left wall look destroyed and move 30% of the attackers spawn close to the tents inside and to the stairs leading up the backdoor and add a ladder there from the tents leading to the wall, should make the fighting even more intense then. But only if the new version turns out as a failure as well.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Tindel on March 13, 2013, 10:26:52 am
I was sort of speaking about my general feel of all 3 maps xD

Thanks for the map, think you could post one like that for the other 2 castles as well?
And i will try to show how people play them.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 13, 2013, 10:02:44 pm
http://imgur.com/6eFBsdf

http://imgur.com/NUTqQva

I've highlighted the most important changes.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 14, 2013, 06:47:08 pm
Updated Ishtar further! See OP for changes.

New Version of Helms_Deep as well now!
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Ronin on March 17, 2013, 05:27:13 pm
Fips you need to see this:
http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/take-'helms-deep'-out-of-the-rotation/
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: [ptx] on March 17, 2013, 05:57:47 pm
Ishtar - it is possible to reach flag by going over the mountain on the right side.

Burg Rabenstein - takes waaaaaaaay too long for attackers to get anywhere.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 17, 2013, 08:28:34 pm
And i will tell it once more...THIS IS STILL THE VERY FIRST VERSION AND I'VE FIXED MANY FUCKING THINGS.  :(


First screenshot of my new map!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 19, 2013, 02:39:06 am
And i will tell it once more...THIS IS STILL THE VERY FIRST VERSION AND I'VE FIXED MANY FUCKING THINGS.  :(


First screenshot of my new map!

(click to show/hide)
keep working on it. its gonna be awesome. first map that focusses on defenders charging out. not just silly flag camping
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 19, 2013, 02:44:54 am
First i need to adjust my old maps to the new siege mode anyway.


Edit: Omg...seems like i used the wrong prop for the "invisible walls" the whole time, damn!
I will change that immediately.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 22, 2013, 06:07:38 pm
New mode is now available for Helms Deep! See OP for changelog.

M&B Nexus is not working, so use this link for now: [OLD LINK]


New and better version: http://www.file-upload.net/download-7364271/Helms_Deep.rar.html
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 23, 2013, 04:54:40 pm
New mode is now available for Helms Deep! See OP for changelog.

M&B Nexus is not working, so use this link for now: [OLD LINK]


New and better version: http://www.file-upload.net/download-7364271/Helms_Deep.rar.html
them ballistas gonna be awesum
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 23, 2013, 05:00:33 pm
them ballistas gonna be awesum

I'm afraid people will be more busy with ballistas instead of defending flags. If it's too worse i will reduce the amount, though.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 23, 2013, 05:01:31 pm
I'm afraid people will be more busy with ballistas instead of defending flags. If it's too worse i will reduce the amount, though.
you placed them well, they will actually be usefull
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on March 26, 2013, 05:23:07 pm
Burg Rabenstein and Ishtar are now available for the new siege mode. See OP for changelog.

And, m&b-nexus uploads are up.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Nordwolf on April 07, 2013, 11:19:40 am
I think small castles still should have 1 flag.

New Beta Siege features require specifically made maps imo.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on April 07, 2013, 12:28:53 pm
I think small castles still should have 1 flag.

New Beta Siege features require specifically made maps imo.

It's not just made for very big castles that take ages to conquer. Smaller castles will less flags could work just as good. But as long as they are not on the server i cannot change anything, need to wait for some results.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 08, 2013, 03:30:44 pm
Updated all 3 maps so they are more balanced for normal siege. (Too bad Conquest is gone =/)

Going to work on a battle map now, because why not. =O
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: no_rules_just_play on July 08, 2013, 04:13:57 pm
wait, conquest is gone? D:
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 08, 2013, 04:25:00 pm
wait, conquest is gone? D:

Ozin didn't fix it and until it is fixed it is gone.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Elindor on July 08, 2013, 05:46:20 pm
I'd assume its gone ... they will probably just use what they learned making it for the standalone game.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 08, 2013, 05:51:43 pm
I'd assume its gone ... they will probably just use what they learned making it for the standalone game.

Nah, Ozin said he will try to fix it whenever he has some time to spare. But you know, December 2010 xD
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Elindor on July 08, 2013, 07:45:45 pm
Nah, Ozin said he will try to fix it whenever he has some time to spare. But you know, December 2010 xD

Right :)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 11, 2013, 03:33:38 pm
Not going to do that battle map =(
Gates are not working as i expected. It's a shame you can't connect winch and portcullis by just adding some values.

Maybe i can use the castle i made for conquest and turn it into normal siege.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: obitus on July 11, 2013, 03:39:04 pm
they work by proximity iirc -- closest winch works the closest portcullis
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 11, 2013, 03:47:45 pm
they work by proximity iirc -- closest winch works the closest portcullis
Yeah i know. My idea had 4 gates pretty close to each other. It even moved the winch and the portcullis at once xD
It worked once for every winch but after the second try everything was fucked up.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: obitus on July 11, 2013, 03:50:13 pm
Hmm...perhaps the changing location of the portcullis (in the open position) was enough that some became closer to other winches?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 11, 2013, 03:51:30 pm
Hmm...perhaps the changing location of the portcullis (in the open position) was enough that some became closer to other winches?

That's why i gave up trying to change the locations after i adjusted winches and portcullis like a dozen times.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: obitus on July 11, 2013, 03:57:18 pm
I don't blame you.  Measuring out and building Pitfalls was extremely tedious.  You may have to significantly redesign things.

Just throwing out ideas...the winches could go above the gates in Z-axis and have a good chance of still targeting the right ones.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 11, 2013, 04:21:23 pm
Actually, why not give it some other tries, you're right. Maybe i gave up too early =D
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jarold on July 12, 2013, 01:29:46 pm
Nah, Ozin said he will try to fix it whenever he has some time to spare. But you know, December 2010 xD

I honestly hope conquest doesn't come back. I'm just one of those guys who loves the old things already in. I love battle and siege just the way they are.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 12, 2013, 01:51:47 pm
I honestly hope conquest doesn't come back. I'm just one of those guys who loves the old things already in. I love battle and siege just the way they are.

Don't you like the possibilities this mode could offer to us mapmakers? I mean, if it ever gets finished and polished there is so much you can do with your maps =O
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jarold on July 12, 2013, 02:00:44 pm
Good map making opportunities, yes. Actually playing the game mode, no. I just don't like it, maybe because it was horribly balanced and bugged at the time.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 12, 2013, 03:03:30 pm
Good map making opportunities, yes. Actually playing the game mode, no. I just don't like it, maybe because it was horribly balanced and bugged at the time.

Well yeah, despite those facts. Should have taken better care of at the time.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Falka on July 14, 2013, 11:12:52 am
It appears from the screens that there is a way to big distance from attacker spawns to the flag, doubt it'll be winnable for the attackers.

~40secs to get there. 10-15 if you use horse.

40 seconds... Too much, definitely too much. I'd like your maps, but attacker's spawn it way too far from flag. That's why almost everyone hate Burg_Rabenstein :P
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Teeth on July 14, 2013, 12:19:32 pm
~40secs to get there. 10-15 if you use horse.

40 seconds... Too much, definitely too much. I'd like your maps, but attacker's spawn it way too far from flag. That's why almost everyone hate Burg_Rabenstein :P
Don't forget that defenders do not usually spawn next to the flag either. Average distance of defender spawn to flag + 25 seconds should be the quickest route for the attackers for map balance if you ask me. Preferably this quickest route should not be available from the start.

I'm thinking about opening a discussion topic to determine some balance guidelines for siege, to help mapmakers create balanced maps. Well, first I'm going to wait for new scene management so making maps actually is of some use.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 14, 2013, 12:23:24 pm
~40secs to get there. 10-15 if you use horse.

40 seconds... Too much, definitely too much. I'd like your maps, but attacker's spawn it way too far from flag. That's why almost everyone hate Burg_Rabenstein :P

And if you would have read the OP you would have seen that i updated it a very long time ago to make it nicer. Also, those 40 seconds are from the very first version, which is not even on the server anymore. It takes like 20 seconds once the gates are all opened. Which is very fast imo.

I don't even like Rabenstein myself anymore because it lacks very important updates for such a long time.

Don't forget that defenders do not usually spawn next to the flag either. Average distance of defender spawn to flag + 25 seconds should be the quickest route for the attackers for map balance if you ask me. Preferably this quickest route should not be available from the start.

And that's why Rabenstein can be balanced. I've seen it go with 2:3 or 3:2 a lot, simply because once the gate is opened it is super quick to get to the destroyable gate and flag and defenders stop spawning close to it. Makes up for the long walks in the beginning.
Balance really depends on map. Jackos 50 seconds once everything is clear on the way to the flag can be a little guideline for some very simple maps, but there are balanced maps with much longer or much shorter ways to flag that are on the servers since forever. 30 seconds or less for attackers should only be available late in the round, because at that point you may be faster at the flag than the defenders.
Some general guidelines can be made, but in the end you will always have to take a look at the maps themselves.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Viriathus on July 14, 2013, 12:51:05 pm
And this is why i just copy the old siege maps and just give them a new look, never fails.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 14, 2013, 03:03:08 pm
And this is why i just copy the old siege maps and just give them a new look, never fails.

That would be way too boring for me =P
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Viriathus on July 14, 2013, 07:37:29 pm
whenever i try to create something new, i always end up with a unrealistic, confusing castle.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 14, 2013, 07:40:11 pm
whenever i try to create something new, i always end up with a unrealistic, confusing castle.

Realism is nice but not a necessity. As long as it looks like a castle and possibly could have been a real one, it's fine^^
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Elindor on July 14, 2013, 10:41:40 pm
Doesn't even have to be a castle...just has to be a structure that through choke points, destructable doors etc, and spawn locations gives an advantage to the defending team while giving the attacking team viable options for entry.

My next map will probably be a crossroads on a trade route with no massive stone walls at all, just lots of buildings and carts etc.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 14, 2013, 11:15:36 pm
Yeah, blurring the line between battle and siege is always a nice idea.


Edit: Oh god, i finally figured out what was wrong with the winches and gates. Just had to turn the gates upside down. This is gunna be awesome. And i already have a name for it. I shall name it "Battlemasters"!
http://imgur.com/ULTOw2r

(Maybe you get the idea just from this screenshot^^)
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Viriathus on July 15, 2013, 10:18:07 pm
(Maybe you get the idea just from this screenshot^^)

I see what you are doing, and i like it...

does it has to do something with this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uDMw9kpRWg
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 16, 2013, 12:02:42 am
I see what you are doing, and i like it...

does it has to do something with this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uDMw9kpRWg

Can't watch because i live in germany =/
But "Gladiator" in the title is enough for me to know what you want^^

Yeah, it will definitely have an arena-feeling. Can't let any wild animals out, though (Hehe). People will have to deal with gates being closed again and only fighting on half the ground and/or falling down if the Battlemasters (hence the name xD) want to.

It's kinda weird because i made it so huge that it seems like a man could even pass through the gaps on the gates themselves, but if i kept it smaller there would be like absolutely no place to fight xD

Not quite sure how to implement cav in this map, i don't want it to get like another version of the genius pitfalls, so yeah, need to figure something out. Maybe a couching track on one side.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jarold on July 19, 2013, 08:11:36 pm
Your map berg rabenstein is an fps dropping map. I know you updated it for awhile now but I think it could help to remove the second castle and just put like 2 village houses there instead.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 19, 2013, 08:17:25 pm
Your map berg rabenstein is an fps dropping map. I know you updated it for awhile now but I think it could help to remove the second castle and just put like 2 village houses there instead.

Still? I mean i never experienced any fps drops, even before i deleted like 60% of the vegetation. Not even Varadin who's playing on a potato told me about any problems with the fps.
Well, i see what i can do, not going to remove the town completely, though =P

Edit: Removed a whole lot of vegetation, deleted some smoke, should definitely run smoother now.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jarold on July 19, 2013, 10:18:25 pm
I'm playing on a laptop so that might be why it was bad for me. Thanks for changing it though.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 21, 2013, 04:04:00 pm
Battlemasters is done!

(click to show/hide)


If you are curious how the gates work: Winches on both sides to open the horizontal ones. They are pushed together and then form a battlearena in between the two vertical ones. The winches under the arena block open the vertical ones so players can enter the arena. Now here's the twist: If the masters at the winch (hence the name) decide to close the vertical ones, the people in the arena are trapped to a fight until death. Now they are a little toys for the people at the winches. They can either open one of the vertical gates and let their players free, but they can also open one or both horizontal ones. One opened horizontal gate will just make the fighting ground smaller, but if both are open everybody inside will fall to their deaths. There is also a ramp so cavalry can rush through the opened gates (or get trapped as well xD). Archers are able to shoot down into the arena to make them suffer even more.

If the player decides to have nothing to with all this, they can either take the jousting area on the one side, the stairs and battleground next to the area where the towers are, or just fight along the streets of this town.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: obitus on July 21, 2013, 04:10:04 pm
Fuck yes!!!

It's going to be a damn fun time when all these new maps and updates are serverside.
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on July 28, 2013, 08:39:49 pm
Battlemasters does not work properly =(

First of all i will make it smaller, is way too huge now (Didnt seem that bad in the editor xd) and second, i will rework the gates. They did not reset properly after the first round, fucking m&b =/
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Jarold on August 03, 2013, 01:22:39 am
Are you looking at the DTV maps submissions?
Title: Re: Fips' Maps
Post by: Fips on August 03, 2013, 01:36:55 am
Are you looking at the DTV maps submissions?

Haven't done that yet. Will do, though, don't worry =)