cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Templar_Steevee on September 26, 2012, 03:18:49 pm
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At first I want to tell that I'm an archer lvl 32, 11th gen all of them as archer.
Almost all ppl are whining about archers, many of them are trolls who don't know how to play.
I can agree with them at least with one thing: jumpshot is bullshit.
That's one of the most unrealistic thing in c-rpg world.
It's impossible to draw a bow while jumping, especially bows with 5 and 6 pd.
Removeing it will help other to play and reduce whining about archery preety much.
Good archers will be good still, abusers will have to learn how to play as a true archer.
I hope it will be changed next patch, it devs do that, I'll be happy :wink:
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voted #3
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All ranged needs is a stop to kitting and viola Archery is balanced...
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All ranged needs is a stop to kitting and viola Archery is balanced...
stop kitting...
i can do that, but only if i'll get something wich helps me in melee
Ranged will always run away from enemy, because they are range unit, thay are made for killing from a distance, not standing face to face to a melee who can kill him with one hit (sometimes two).
IMO archery is ballanced atm (except those jumpshots). When you look at scoreboard how many times can you see archer on a top?
If you can it's probably one of the best archers in c-rpg who is playing an archer from ages, not a beginner with non loomed equipment.
Archery is powerfull class but in the same way i can tell about 2h, 1h+shield, polearmer or op cav...
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stop kitting...
i can do that, but only if i'll get something wich helps me in melee
Ranged will always run away from enemy, because they are range unit, thay are made for killing from a distance, not standing face to face to a melee who can kill him with one hit (sometimes two).
IMO archery is ballanced atm (except those jumpshots). When you look at scoreboard how many times can you see archer on a top?
If you can it's probably one of the best archers in c-rpg who is playing an archer from ages, not a beginner with non loomed equipment.
Archery is powerfull class but in the same way i can tell about 2h, 1h+shield, polearmer or op cav...
The problem is that archers can kite melee who have more ath and less or equal armor because archers dont get a penalty to speed for holding their 6 foot rus bow like I do for holding my great sword.
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Removing jumpshots doesn't solve jack shit. In fact, all removing jumpshots will do is make kiting take longer.
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The problem is that archers can kite melee who have more ath and less or equal armor because archers dont get a penalty to speed for holding their 6 foot rus bow like I do for holding my great sword.
At first compare weigth of armor (moving speed is decreased mostly from it). Archers are forced to use total body armour below 10 if they want to have full wpf without penalty from weigth.
I don't know about penalty for moving from weapon weigth, ask devs.
i'm shure that if you will have your GS and same weigth of body armor wits same ath or one more you are able to catch an archer (basic ex for that are ninjas).
Have a nice day
Removing jumpshots doesn't solve jack shit. In fact, all removing jumpshots will do is make kiting take longer.
it will take longer, but it will save many meelee figthers lives and archers will fail much more trying to shoot an enemy chasing them.
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At first compare weigth of armor (moving speed is decreased mostly from it). Archers are forced to use total body armour below 10 if they want to have full wpf without penalty from weigth.
I don't know about penalty for moving from weapon weigth, ask devs.
i'm shure that if you will have your GS and same weigth of body armor wits same ath or one more you are able to catch an archer (basic ex for that are ninjas).
Have a nice day
I am talking about the melee player wearing about the the same or simular armor as the archer.
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Add power-jumping like in rageball = No one whines, insteads lols
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I just love ppl writing on forums. :mrgreen:
So many trolls and whiners whining all the time on everything.
If someone have an idea, they will troll him, even if he want to help other classes to makes their gameplay better and less stresfull they will troll and whine all the time.
I'm only hope that some ppl will notice that i want to help others and at least try to understand me.
Other reson of kitting archers is that many players are going high lvl (archers too) and every archer know that he will be more usefull, if he will be able to change his position faster and join other teammates to help them.
Hi lvl char, it doesn' matter what class it is, will always have advantage against players with lvl 30 or below, it's normal, so why archers shouldn't be like others?
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I would remove them just for their retarded looks. But I am also supporting the removal of jumphits, for the very same reason. I don't think it does a lot to balance, as it actually is not a question of balance, it's a question of game design. Heavy infantry having the task to kill the entire enemy team (like every player does) means, they also have to kill those archers, horse archers and cavalry, which is bad game design. Infantry isn't made for chasing down more mobile classes. Lower archer speed or better archer melee capabilities can never be the solution.
You can't use a Battle Tank to hunt down Helicopter Gunships. Yes, modern tanks have a slight chance of hitting a gunship with their main weapon, but the gunship needs to more or less allow it and the chances are tiny, so come on.
You could say that the AA-guns have to hunt down the helicopter, the helicopers hunt down the tanks and the tanks hunt down the AA-guns, but in the case of cRPG the helicopter (= archers) for example can engage all targets (including their counter, the AA-guns), while the tank (= infantry) can't (their counter, the gunships, are untouchable). Even if you scale down the effectivity of the helicopter (less missile damage, lower missile accuracy, etc.), the helicopter will ALWAYS have more possibilities to contribute to the team victory. I don't say they will contribute more, due to the eventual effect of the nerfs, but they will always have more options.
Change the game mode in a way that offers all classes the same amount of options to win a round. Because this entire debate is about options, not about effectivity.
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remove jumphits with pikes
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I am talking about the melee player wearing about the the same or simular armor as the archer.
Do you make any tests? I'm playing as an archer since i bougth my M&B and always hi ath ppl were able to catch me. As I said earlier Ninjas are perfect example. Ask them about killing archers, they know how to do that.
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Give the bows a huge amount of weight and problem solved, no more olympic archers running around.
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Then give them melee capabilities.
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Give the bows a huge amount of weight and problem solved, no more olympic archers running around.
Those olimpic archers are mostly hi lvl archers, standard archer on lvl 30 have 7-8 ath
Then give them melee capabilities.
won't help, if archer can kill enemy from safe distance why should he come and figth in melee?
Belive me, figthing with hand axe or other 0 slot weapon isn't funny, especially when enemy got long weapon
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i love when people want to balance their own class..
for instance, i propose removing jumphits from pikes.. (as a lvl 35 dedicated piker)
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nononononononono
jumpshot is sweet
and its not even really good. its inaccurate as fuck.
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Aslong as you don't remove it from throwing :lol:
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Those olimpic archers are mostly hi lvl archers, standard archer on lvl 30 have 7-8 athwon't help, if archer can kill enemy from safe distance why should he come and figth in melee?
Belive me, figthing with hand axe or other 0 slot weapon isn't funny, especially when enemy got long weapon
Not if they are slowed down. But if they are slowed down they need melee weapons. That was my point. Slowing them down means they can't run. I can keep up with most archers with my hoplite ffs. All except the lightest of light. Raising bow weight would make a big difference from my pov.
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... i propose removing jumphits from pikes.. (as a lvl 35 dedicated piker)
This.
But also the archery thing that is on-topic :)
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Maybe only allow jumpshots if you have 2 more Power Draw than you need to draw the bow. e.g horn bow requires 7 PD to jumpshot and rus bow requires 8.
This would buff strength archers and maybe reduce the number of kiting ones. It would also give people a reason to take the lower level bows at a high level, since all you see past level 20ish is horn, and rus (maybe the rare yumi, tatar or long). This would mean that with the 15/21 archer build you could take a horn bow with no jumpshot, or a nomad bow with jumpshot - variety?
Maybe.
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What about running with the bow drawn?
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Not if they are slowed down. But if they are slowed down they need melee weapons. That was my point. Slowing them down means they can't run. I can keep up with most archers with my hoplite ffs. All except the lightest of light. Raising bow weight would make a big difference from my pov.
my weapons (bow, 2 stack of arrows and hand axe already got almosy 10 weigth), so pls stop telling shit about increasing weigth of bows
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my weapons (bow, 2 stack of arrows and hand axe already got almosy 10 weigth), so pls stop telling shit about increasing weigth of bows
Still, archers drawing their bow then escaping by running sideways plays and looks completely retarded.
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Still, archers drawing their bow then escaping by running sideways plays and looks completely retarded.
yea, that's true. I'll make a thread with my solution of this problem, but a bit later :P
This is thread about removing jumpshots not "how to change archery to make them useless" 8-)
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I agree that jumpshots can be and feel stupid, but it is not a problem with bows only.
How many times have I been poked to the face by a backjumping pikeman? Or a mauler hitting you over your shield in siege? Quite a few.
What about making bows unbalanced, this would not affect its fighting style (you can still notch/unnotch arrows as usual) at all, BUT you could then remove jump slashing/thrusting/shooting with ANY unbalanced weapon?
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mauler hitting you over your shield in siege
It looks like hitting over your shield. In real life try to get a hit in shield with 8 kilo piece of metal (or somthing heavy)at the end of a stick from very strong person and tell my when you will go off from hospital. After hit like that your arm will be broken (there were many tests made to check it, I watched some of them in TV).
Crushthrough is probably the most ballanced thing in cRPG atm. It's random and you have to got many PS to see it preety often
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Weren't they removed somewhere in the past already? or was that a bug? :P Noticed they were gone for some weeks, loved those weeks. Then they returned.
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Weren't they removed somewhere in the past already?
Well some of the devs have archers an loves it obviously
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Didn't read the thread but I don't actually care! Jumpshot is nothing OP. Skilled archer has two possible ways to win a noob shielder. 1) jumpshotting 2) sidestepping. Ofc veteran shielder will not let archers to wiggle past his shield anyhow because he knows this and keeps his shield always in a right position.
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Voted on nº 3 for no reason. Anyway, I personaly dont use jumpshooting and I dont see how it can be much of an advantage for an archer.
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Voted on nº 3 for no reason. Anyway, I personaly dont use jumpshooting and I dont see how it can be much of an advantage for an archer.
I know it :twisted:
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I personaly dont use jumpshooting and I dont see how it can be much of an advantage for an archer.
He can turn around and pull his bow while in the air, without having to stop. Only useful when kiting as an archer.
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my weapons (bow, 2 stack of arrows and hand axe already got almosy 10 weigth), so pls stop telling shit about increasing weigth of bows
Not exactly sure what you meant to say there :? 10 weight is nothing :| Especially combined with relatively light armour.
My original point is simple...to stop archers kiting and abusing jumpshot, slow down archers (in whatever manner, bow weight was an example), hand them a sword, nerf running with bow drawn and there you go. Melee competent archers who won't kite constantly.
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Not exactly sure what you meant to say there :? 10 weight is nothing :| Especially combined with relatively light armour.
My original point is simple...to stop archers kiting and abusing jumpshot, slow down archers (in whatever manner, bow weight was an example), hand them a sword, nerf running with bow drawn and there you go. Melee competent archers who won't kite constantly.
Making archers less archery and more infantry...y (?) can never be the solution.
I already wrote it down somewhere else: if archers are almost as good as infantry in melee (to reduce their incentive to run away), infantry must be almost as good as archers in ranged combat, to keep things fair. And as infantry doesn't participate in ranged combat at all, we need something whcih is only slighty better. Which would mean, the ranged capabilities of archers should be nerfed down to the level of a stone throwing peasant. On the other hand, if you'd try to raise the ranged capabilities of infantry closer to the level of archers, by promoting hybrids, all you would achieve is 90% ranged fighting.
No no, archers are fine by doing damage over distance, running away by using their better mobility and standing no chance in melee against infantry. Yes, the last point is important. If I manage to run through the enemy fire and reach the archer, I think I deserve an easy and pretty guaranteed kill.
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Making archers less archery and more infantry...y (?) can never be the solution.
I already wrote it down somewhere else: if archers are almost as good as infantry in melee (to reduce their incentive to run away), infantry must be almost as good as archers in ranged combat, to keep things fair. And as infantry doesn't participate in ranged combat at all, we need something whcih is only slighty better. Which would mean, the ranged capabilities of archers should be nerfed down to the level of a stone throwing peasant. On the other hand, if you'd try to raise the ranged capabilities of infantry closer to the level of archers, by promoting hybrids, all you would achieve is 90% ranged fighting.
No no, archers are fine by doing damage over distance, running away by using their better mobility and standing no chance in melee against infantry. Yes, the last point is important. If I manage to run through the enemy fire and reach the archer, I think I deserve an easy and pretty guaranteed kill.
It's not making them less archery. I seriously suggest playing WotR to see what I'm talking about. That kind of system is pretty much what I mean and it works very well...possibly the one good thing that game does other than shiny stuff.
The difference is they are pretty much forced to be light (due to armour penalties) so they suffer from that, they have to sacrifice points in PS and ironflesh a lot of the time if they want more PD and WM ect so they don't deal a lot of damage in melee but a good archer who can block can still fight their way out of a situation and kill a few. Slowing them down with a bow out means they have to think about their placement a lot and also support their team more. It makes for a much better ranged system and far less 'zomg melee run away' as often they are forced to enter it unless they have stuck with their team and can rely on team mates.
I don't see your reasoning of archers having melee capabilities means melee should have ranged. As far as I'm concerned they already do via throwing and xbow. Melee can still take basic throwing weapons/xbows without sacrificing many points at all for melee. Unless your in a duel situation the points difference isn't noticeable, particularly with many xbowers. Therefore archers should have more than a 0 slot weapon for melee.
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The point is I wouldn't move the different classes closer to each other. And if melee has ranged weapons, in most cases they are either hybrids (not melee) or are incredibly ineffective with it. And even if archers are ALMOST as good as infantry in melee, they would still run away, due to their much better chances of killing that enemy over range. So whatever melee weapon you give them, it would be used like the knife in Counter Strike: being drawn only to run faster.
I think being almost helpless in melee against pure infantry is an important aspect of balance and class design for archers.
The problem is the game mode, where infantry has (also) to kill archers. Change the game mode to something which involves conquering one or more flags, and the problem of kiting will be gone, because kiting will not help you conquering the flag, and infantry doesn't need to run after archers any more to win the fight.
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Ah that's the other thing. In WotR armour is actually effective against ranged. Badly places shots glance and the like. With the scoreboard though a good archer could still do well. In that respect it makes a lot of sense the way it's designed. Archers aren't as hard hitting as they are in crpg unless you place your shots very well. All I can say is that everything you are describing doesn't happen in that game. That ranged system is just better flat out but it would require a lot of change to implement it here.
You are very insistent on this game mode thing :wink: Mind you WotR also has a conquest gamemode and that is where I'm drawing my experience from.
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You are very insistent on this game mode thing :wink: Mind you WotR also has a conquest gamemode and that is where I'm drawing my experience from.
I am very insistend on it, because I think it would solve a LOT of problems, and players would actually start to play the game properly, instead of that "We are a bunch of Rambo-autowalker-lemmings who incidentally happen to spawn together, and we run towards the enemy to see who can click and move his mouse faster, and hopefully I will be at the top of the scoreboard by killing as many of them by my own as possible."-behaviour.
It would change the feel of the game completely, probably even more than the upkeep system did. I haven't played TwoR yet, but I am dead sure the game mode does have an influence on what you decribed, even more than the running speed and glancing shots have. It's still an assumption, though, so I can't know. I can be wrong with everything, of course. :?
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IMO many ppl forget one simple thing:
Archer is a class made for killing others from a distance, not in face to face situation.
They have to run to make a proper distance to shoot an enemy.
Slowing them down should be only be only in a moment when an archer want to draw a bow, aim and shoot.
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Then give them melee capabilities.
Archers can have melee capabilities. I was a longbowman with 6 power strike before, had a byrnie, mail coif, leather boots, leather gloves, tatar arrows, and my nordic sword. Not bad for an archer if you ask me.
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Why is this even about archers? The only ones I see using this to great effect on a consistent basis is throwers and xbowers. Archers in a jump shot contest with those guys are going to lose nearly every time.
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YES!
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all this damn kiting and the fact that most rounds i dont get to swing my mele weapon becouse ranged 1shot or 2shot me be4 i get to the action... (no im not a fool running around like a dumb donkey) And the fact that there is so damn many ranged players.
GIVE ME RANGED,CAV MELE AUTOBALANCE!!!
90%ranged on 1 team or 90% cav on 1 team fucks this game up.
Class autobalance would FIX a this mod/game.
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Meh, only good thing about jumpshot as an archer is when you dodge a cav (so you can shoot the rider/pony straight afterwards). I've never found it OP and yeah I played 6 months before I went archer
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Didn't read the thread but I don't actually care! Jumpshot is nothing OP. Skilled archer has two possible ways to win a noob shielder. 1) jumpshotting 2) sidestepping. Ofc veteran shielder will not let archers to wiggle past his shield anyhow because he knows this and keeps his shield always in a right position.
This really depends on the relative agility of both players.
A typical 1h guy (no leokinngrim-like) holding his shield up turns veeery slowly (it's fast in a RL context, but not at all in warband) when already moving forward. Archers, with light armor and 8 ath or more, can sidestep and turn much faster.
Avoiding being hit by robinhood, blackbow, etc like that isn't trivial. It takes more guessing and anticipation than reflexes, really. If you did this using reflexes, you would be too late.