First off, yes I'm lobbying.
Linear wpf gain by wm with no standard free wpf each level?
+1
Im using a 9/30 build on my stf now, great fun but you get 1 shot by about anything (facedagger is leathal), and you cant spam heavy armored guys since you glance off all the time not
Armor virtually doesn't cause any glance by itself these days. Actually an agility build gives you more options to make your enemies glance by moving away from their animation sweetspots.well, once you're a really low str build moving away from their sweetspots don't matter and every hit regardless of how retarded it looks will at least stun you.
Armor virtually doesn't cause any glance by itself these days. Actually an agility build gives you more options to make your enemies glance by moving away from their animation sweetspots.
18/21 makes a wonderful 1h build for me.
18/21 makes a wonderful 1h build for me.I prefer 15/27, just hold W.
Agi build give out enough damage with the speed bonus...Someone with a build such as 15/24 hits as hard as someone with 24/15.
Agi build give out enough damage with the speed bonus...Someone with a build such as 15/24 hits as hard as someone with 24/15.
You were conscious when writing that?
First off, yes I'm lobbying. Now that that's out of the way...
Buff agility builds.
Agile builds are better than strength builds in 9/10 situations.
A strength build, which is usually slower due to lower athletics and/or heavier armour is more vulnerable when outnumbered.
That means a strength build is more dependent on teamplay. A strength build is harder to play in many ways as you can't just run away from a situation as easily.
But most of all, agile builds are superior in 1on1 situations which make up most situations.
Sure, you can do good as a noob with a strength build.
But doing really good is a lot harder with a strength build than an easy mode run away spammer build.
Agile builds are better than strength builds in 9/10 situations.
But most of all, agile builds are superior in 1on1 situations which make up most situations.
Bullshit.
It should be cleared up, in my opinion you're not an agi or str build unless you have at least 6 more agi/str than the other and you shouldn't be classed as an "agi-whore" or "strength crutcher" unless you've got at least 9 more.
That said, playing 15/24 with full +3 light (ninja) armour and I get 1 hit all the time by lucky swings. This would be compensated better if it wasn't laughable how little difference athletics makes to your speed and that even touching a hill makes you suddenly the same speed as (or sometimes slower than!) that huscarl shield carrying left-swing spammer who's chasing you with his buddies.
Potential fix list:
- Buff Athletics speed.
- Buff Weapon Master WPF points.
- Remove free WPF.
- Nerf hill speed reductions.
- Adjust fall damage dependant on agility.
- Nerf HP given by strength.
- Buff acceleration speed dependant on agility.
That's all I can think of right now.
...a long long time ago in a far away galaxy ..., a time when i was just starting to play crpg agi stacking was pretty OP and you saw tincans all over the place. The agi stacking went sofar that you had high ath builds which you never were able to hunt down and lighting fast weapon speeds where human reflexes couldn't cope with. That said, i slight buff in ath and a slightly bigger buff in wpp wouldn't hurt.
why devs make agi melee skills so weak ?
SO we have no choice , BECAUSE
IRONFLESH and POWERSTRIKE are more more more effective than weapon master and athletic .
KILLING the variety of builds is equivalent KILLING crpg.
forgive my english.
Being outnumbered doesn't mean jack if you can take 7-8 hits before going down. So long as you plant one hit on each dude who is ganking you it's an easy win. It's even easier to survive against groups of enemies now that polestagger is gone. If you think that STR builds rely on teammates tell that to the groups of people I tore through back when I was 42/3.
Potential fix list:
- Buff Athletics speed.
- Buff Weapon Master WPF points.
- Remove free WPF.
- Nerf hill speed reductions.
- Adjust fall damage dependant on agility.
- Nerf HP given by strength.
- Buff acceleration speed dependant on agility.
That's all I can think of right now.
First off, are you a 36/3 build? Moving on...
Ha-Ha-Ha.
Ok, I think it's time that I state out the strengths and weaknesses of full strength before we can move on.
So lets take a 36/3 build with full plate
Advantages:
-You take a lot more hits
yes
-You deal far more damage
yes
-you can weapstun more, you can pick up mauls, etc.
yes
Now that this is out of the way, lets see...
Disadvantages:
-Anyone in the game can catch you.
After which they will get one-shotted. Two-shotted if they're lucky.
-Relating to above, you can be ganked easily.
-Related to note above, you cannot escape or defend yourself when ganked due to the slowness of your swings: you die outspammed.You just take a second longer to die.
Forcing glances with half-decent armor values and over 90 hp is easy, and once that glance is forced whoever is fighting you loses 80-100% of his health.
-You cannot feint efficiently.
How so? It's not like movement speed changes feinting speed or anything.
-You cannot spam.
No such thing as spam, only inability to block.
-You cannot escape the reach of the enemy as he swings and then slash him afterwards.
Who cares? Seriously. Any opponent will miss a block at some point, and when he does chances are that you'll do to him in one hit what he can do to you in several hits.
-You have to sell your looms to sustain the upkeep.
Back when I was full strength I wore a gambeson and fought with a practice longsword. I could still kill anyone in 3-4 hits and take 3-4 hits before going down, plus I moved as fast as a balanced build wearing heavy/medium armor. Who says strength builds need to wear expensive stuff?
-You have more difficulty dodging ranged attacks.
It isn't hard to put a point into shield to take 4-5 arrows, and stacking ironflesh easily lets anyone take 3-4 more.
-You cannot catch an archer or an agi xbow.
So? It's not like archers can hurt anyone anymore after all the nerfs and crossbows take hella long to reload. Why would anyone bother chasing ranged as a full strength build anyway when they can just run into a group of dudes and start tearing through them?
-You have difficulty escaping a cavalry charge.
-related to above, you can be couched lance easily (which 1-shots you by the way)
An relatively simple solution is to block down. Another is to outreach the lance thrust with a greatsword stab. If the horseman is 1h or 2h cav it's even easier to put him down. If he's coming at you with a couched lance you can hit his horse before the couch hits you. If it kills his horse, he's boned. If it doesn't... I've survived couched lances on a full strength build before.
And being a full str for four generations, I know what I am talking about.
Seems like we have the same amount of experience with this kind of build.
Playing full str relies mostly on the mistakes of the enemy, such as a weakness in blocking skills, misplacement or badly timed attacks, which is why this build is really useful against a bunch of newbies.
However, this extreme build is a lot harder to master against veteran players who generally avoid such mistakes. That, combined with the
disadvantages stated above, is the reason why few people decide to roll full strength.
Strength builds are overpowered because you get a high reward while taking low risks at the same time. Sure, it's a build that requires your opponent to make a mistake, but it's the same with any other build. It is just more difficult to capitalize on those mistakes with a strength build, but when you do, it puts him down pretty fucking fast.
As I said, agi is slightly nerfed, I think that swing speed related to WPF should be increased.
yes
Fighting pure strength build as agi oriented build is the same as fighting especially nasty Dark Souls Boss while being SL1.
It's possible but it takes skill, and there's no room for mistakes.
i seem to do best in balanced builds, which leads me to believe that agi and str are in fact balanced. Tell me why i am wrong :)
Fighting agi builds as a strength char is like trying to ram a powerboat with a supertanker.
Pretty much this.
That is an angry ninja who only supports his own class. Get out.
Maybe after a certain point in agi, say 21 or 24 you start to do more damage to enemies from behind or something? To promote the agility footwork. Wouldn't apply to bows. This dmg buff could apply more to cut and pierce, as it seems it may be too easy with blunt, but it could still apply to a lesser extend. Also swords and daggers are more assassin-like so this would make sense.
Or maybe a slight increase to movement speed when running backwards!
Maybe after a certain point in agi, say 21 or 24 you start to do more damage to enemies from behind or something? To promote the agility footwork. Wouldn't apply to bows. This dmg buff could apply more to cut and pierce, as it seems it may be too easy with blunt, but it could still apply to a lesser extend. Also swords and daggers are more assassin-like so this would make sense.I like the idear with higher dmg for strikes in the back
...
Glaive backpedalers doesn't need any extra speed, that's for sure :mrgreen:
Glaive requires too much STR for it to be used with an agility build.
Not exactly. 16/27 is a totally workable build by level 30. Same goes for 18/24 and it gets even easier at levels over 30.
I like the idear with higher dmg for strikes in the back
but i would set 24 as lower limit, as high lvl players will get str builds with 21 agi
also i would include a maximum str 12, as f.e. pikes would be a scary nightmare with this ability(click to show/hide)
Therefor if i define agi or str based builds i would base that on the assumption they go for max lvl or are at least lvl 31, while maintaining a higher attr value in either of them then the other.
Jelly, Kulin.
I don't see why any such buffs need to be combat specific. Agility is movement, why not help movement.
And a powerboat ramming a supertanker will do much damage?
Ha-Ha-Ha.
Ok, I think it's time that I state out the strengths and weaknesses of full strength before we can move on.
So lets take a 36/3 build with full plate
Advantages:
-You take a lot more hits
yes
-You deal far more damage
yes
-you can weapstun more, you can pick up mauls, etc.
yes
Now that this is out of the way, lets see...
Disadvantages:
-Anyone in the game can catch you.
After which they will get one-shotted. Two-shotted if they're lucky.
That is only if I can hit them. No one is gonna charge me. What I mean is, if I got 3 guys on my tail, they will catch me.
-Relating to above, you can be ganked easily.
-Related to note above, you cannot escape or defend yourself when ganked due to the slowness of your swings: you die outspammed.You just take a second longer to die.
Forcing glances with half-decent armor values and over 90 hp is easy, and once that glance is forced whoever is fighting you loses 80-100% of his health.
Proof that you don't know what you are talking about. I am not going to explain situations such as these. Go play the class as I stated then come back with knowledge.
-You cannot feint efficiently.
How so? It's not like movement speed changes feinting speed or anything.
There is a thing called weapon proficiency, you may have heard about it. It changes the speed at which you swing. Guess what? the less wpf you have, the slower your swings ! And if you want to feint, you want your weapon to be fast don't you? don't you? so if you have little wpf and are slow as shit with your weapon, you won't feint well, would you?
-You cannot spam.
No such thing as spam, only inability to block.
Wise looking words, but you don't make an effort to see my point.With experience, you will see what I mean.
-You cannot escape the reach of the enemy as he swings and then slash him afterwards.
Who cares? Seriously. Any opponent will miss a block at some point, and when he does chances are that you'll do to him in one hit what he can do to you in several hits.
*Hello, I'm TurmoilTom,I just keep saying the same thing in a desperate attempt to justify my point*
-You have to sell your looms to sustain the upkeep.
Back when I was full strength I wore a gambeson and fought with a practice longsword. I could still kill anyone in 3-4 hits and take 3-4 hits before going down, plus I moved as fast as a balanced build wearing heavy/medium armor. Who says strength builds need to wear expensive stuff?
Do you know what '' So let's take a 36/3 build with full plate'' means? And why have a good armor when full str? Because it's more efficient. Play game for more info.
-You have more difficulty dodging ranged attacks.
It isn't hard to put a point into shield to take 4-5 arrows, and stacking ironflesh easily lets anyone take 3-4 more.
Point into shield: less ironflesh. Ironflesh: Does it mean it is easier to dodge arrows? Noooo !
-You cannot catch an archer or an agi xbow.
So? It's not like archers can hurt anyone anymore after all the nerfs and crossbows take hella long to reload. Why would anyone bother chasing ranged as a full strength build anyway when they can just run into a group of dudes and start tearing through them?
So? So they can kite your face off anytime. I spend half of ending rounds hiding waiting for the flag because I can't catch them.Archers can't hurt anyone? Play the game. Why chase archers? Because there ain't anyone else?
-You have difficulty escaping a cavalry charge.
-related to above, you can be couched lance easily (which 1-shots you by the way)
An relatively simple solution is to block down. Another is to outreach the lance thrust with a greatsword stab. If the horseman is 1h or 2h cav it's even easier to put him down. If he's coming at you with a couched lance you can hit his horse before the couch hits you. If it kills his horse, he's boned. If it doesn't... I've survived couched lances on a full strength build before.
You survived couched lances? with what? a rouncey and a practice lance? Because I can tell you that I dont survive a couched lance, even with fully loomed milanese and heavy gauntlets. I think you never play full str and when you do, you dont get couched. And another thing, when I say ''difficulty escaping'' I don't mean ''impossible to kill''. it seems your mind goes before your eyes.
And being a full str for four generations, I know what I am talking about.
Seems like we have the same amount of experience with this kind of build.
Seems not.
Playing full str relies mostly on the mistakes of the enemy, such as a weakness in blocking skills, misplacement or badly timed attacks, which is why this build is really useful against a bunch of newbies.
However, this extreme build is a lot harder to master against veteran players who generally avoid such mistakes. That, combined with the
disadvantages stated above, is the reason why few people decide to roll full strength.
Strength builds are overpowered because you get a high reward while taking low risks at the same time. Sure, it's a build that requires your opponent to make a mistake, but it's the same with any other build. It is just more difficult to capitalize on those mistakes with a strength build, but when you do, it puts him down pretty fucking fast.
I think the added difficulty for hitting someone is balanced with the damage output. That is my opinion, however.
As I said, agi is slightly nerfed, I think that swing speed related to WPF should be increased.
yes
Anyway, I got a bit rude there, no offense, I know people have different opinions. I just feel that you do not really have a lot of experience of full str and plate.
I'm sure that if you play it a bit you will see things my way :)
Ha-Ha-Ha.
Ok, I think it's time that I state out the strengths and weaknesses of full strength before we can move on.
So lets take a 36/3 build with full plate
Advantages:
-You take a lot more hits
-You deal far more damage
-you can weapstun more, you can pick up mauls, etc.
Now that this is out of the way, lets see...
Disadvantages:
-Anyone in the game can catch you.
-Relating to above, you can be ganked easily.
-Related to note above, you cannot escape or defend yourself when ganked due to the slowness of your swings: you die outspammed.You just take a second longer to die.
-You cannot feint efficiently.
-You cannot spam.
-You cannot escape the reach of the enemy as he swings and then slash him afterwards.
-You have to sell your looms to sustain the upkeep.
-You have more difficulty dodging ranged attacks.
-You cannot catch an archer or an agi xbow.
-You have difficulty escaping a cavalry charge.
-related to above, you can be couched lance easily (which 1-shots you by the way)
And being a full str for four generations, I know what I am talking about.
Playing full str relies mostly on the mistakes of the enemy, such as a weakness in blocking skills, misplacement or badly timed attacks, which is why this build is really useful against a bunch of newbies.
However, this extreme build is a lot harder to master against veteran players who generally avoid such mistakes. That, combined with the
disadvantages stated above, is the reason why few people decide to roll full strength.
As I said, agi is slightly nerfed, I think that swing speed related to WPF should be increased.
That is an angry ninja who only supports his own class. Get out.
Like spamming isn't enough advantage to agi builds?
You can use katana ,and go and spam pikers,shielders,light armored ppl,archers and u need buff?
Is it pure stupidity or is there some difficulty somewhere in understanding that agility is made as an advantage to deal more hits, not to deal damage as strength does?
And by "Kind of fast", you mean until you hit a slow-down patch, or try to go up a hill after an archer who proceeds to machine gun you.
Let us compare that to a 3/36 build with rags:
Advantages:
you run kind of fast
Disadvantages:
-You do no damage to anyone and glance on everything
-die to everything .
...i remember a time when that wasn't true, 1 1/2-2 years back, when there where nearly no agi based shielders
Shielders are the most hated players among the ninja.
...
Yes, the same happens to strength builds too, the difference is, strength builds often have the HP and armour to survive it. Agility builds don't.
Bullshit.
Like spamming isn't enough advantage to agi builds?
You can use katana ,and go and spam pikers,shielders,light armored ppl,archers and u need buff?
10 strength can't use a heavy great sword! SHENANIGANS!
10 strength can't use a heavy great sword! SHENANIGANS!
Was about time somebody with some real STR build experience posted here. Only thing I want to add to this is:
- STR build require more skill when it comes to battle awereness and good footwork.
- AGI builds require more skill when it comes to blocking and general melee skills.
A STR build can miss a block and get hit without a to big problem , but if I make one wrong turn on eu1 and get ganked im screwed.
A AGI build cant miss a block because if he gets a good hit hes dead or so low to health , but if you do end up in a nasty outnumbered situation you just go and run to safety.
A STR build generaly needs the more expensive equipement to make full use of it's power , but it's not like you need to go full tincan sperglord.
A AGI build is a bit more viable in lighter armour because it boost your speed more.
A STR build requiress less melee skills but more battle skills.
A AGI builds requiress more melee skills but less battle skills.
But I just have to admit that STR builds can be aboosed more , go 39/3 and grab a great maul and go hide behind a corner in siege , grab some high damage wep and a friend with an longspear. Agi buils get less opurtonities ( spelled wrong deal with it) to aboose there build.
- STR build require more skill when it comes to battle awereness and good footwork.
Needs more battle awareness? Lol, no. See below.
Better footwork? It helps, but I don't think so, str builds can generally weight-stun their way through most fights with agi builds.
- AGI builds require more skill when it comes to blocking and general melee skills.
Yes, granted.
A STR build can miss a block and get hit without a to big problem , but if I make one wrong turn on eu1 and get ganked im screwed.
Agi builds can't get ganked - they die too fast. Even if you survive the first hit, that stun will leave you stranded in combat with the person who just hit you, then if you manage to block their next attack, you're in the same position that a strength build would be - only with less health and armour.
A AGI build cant miss a block because if he gets a good hit hes dead or so low to health , but if you do end up in a nasty outnumbered situation you just go and run to safety.
Acceleration of an agi build isn't good enough to run from most situations (without getting help from a distraction) - you need time in order to even try to get away. Even if you do run away, where are you going to go? The chances are that if you're "nastily out-numbered", your team is dead so you're going to have to fight those people chasing you at some point anyway.
A STR build generaly needs the more expensive equipement to make full use of it's power , but it's not like you need to go full tincan sperglord.
I'll give you this one. However, agi builds often don't have access to those most expensive equipments, so that's balanced out.
A AGI build is a bit more viable in lighter armour because it boost your speed more.
What you mean is that agi builds use lighter armour because it sapps your speed less. Weight effects strength and agility builds equally, this is not an arguement.
A STR build requiress less melee skills but more battle skills.
You're repeating yourself.
A AGI builds requiress more melee skills but less battle skills.
You're repeating your... wait a minute!
But I just have to admit that STR builds can be aboosed more , go 39/3 and grab a great maul and go hide behind a corner in siege , grab some high damage wep and a friend with an longspear. Agi buils get less opurtonities ( spelled wrong deal with it) to aboose there build.
How, exactly, does one aboose an agi build? The only way I can think of aboosing one would be to run away all battle, delaying or otherwise leeching.
Was about time somebody with some real STR build experience posted here.
I would have listened to you ptolemy, until I saw your reply to george...you obviously never have played full strength, or if you did,ptolemy is sort of a 'tard.
you didn't remember shit. Or maybe it's because your main is a ninja and you want to make sure the game is changed to your advantage.
Dunno. Whatever it is, you lost credibility. You obviously portray agility players as victims of their own build and full str as angry gods of war. Why do you play ninja then? Are you a martyr? Or a liar?
Be honest to yourself and stop exaggerating. If there are so many balanced build and so few str whores, it's for a reason. That only justifies the fact that you are wrong. Get real.
If agility based builds are so underpowered, than how come so many use it?
HerpaderpaCan we change Ptolemys custom tag from "weeaboo" to "weeaboo whiner"?
Why do you play ninja then? Are you a martyr? Or a liar?
Maybe if we what % of players have 8 athletics and more, and what percent is 5 and less, we would get a real picture.
Cav is faster than you - you can't run from them, they will catch you.