Buff agility builds

[Haboe]

Fighting agi builds as a strength char is like trying to ram a powerboat with a supertanker.


Pretty much this.

And a powerboat ramming a supertanker will do much damage?

[Ptolemy]

That is an angry ninja who only supports his own class. Get out.

Clearly you know nothing. I have alts for every class, including a 36/3 build and several other strength-dominant builds. When I talk about game balance I do it from an unbiased point of view - it would be unprofessional not to - and (technically) games design is my profession.

[WhiteAndMilky]

Maybe after a certain point in agi, say 21 or 24 you start to do more damage to enemies from behind or something? To promote the agility footwork. Wouldn't apply to bows. This dmg buff could apply more to cut and pierce, as it seems it may be too easy with blunt, but it could still apply to a lesser extend. Also swords and daggers are more assassin-like so this would make sense.

Or maybe something like a cut or pierce attack to the back staggers an enemy for longer...

Just seems strange when you sneak up on a light-to-medium armored foe, and impale him through the back of the neck with a sword, only to have him do a random sideswing while turning around and take you out one hit...

Or maybe a slight increase to movement speed when running backwards! I dunno, there are many things we could come up with to buff them that would be much more creative than just adding dmg to agi builds or whatever...

[TurmoilTom]

Maybe after a certain point in agi, say 21 or 24 you start to do more damage to enemies from behind or something? To promote the agility footwork. Wouldn't apply to bows. This dmg buff could apply more to cut and pierce, as it seems it may be too easy with blunt, but it could still apply to a lesser extend. Also swords and daggers are more assassin-like so this would make sense.

I like this one. Often I found myself sneaking up behind an archer and smacking him in the back, smacking him again while he pulls out his sidearm, and then watching him block all my swings and backpedal back to his teammates. If I could consistently kill balanced builds with a few smacks in the back I would consider agility builds balanced. It would seriously buff agility builds in group fights and make ninja builds worth playing.

[Gurnisson]

Or maybe a slight increase to movement speed when running backwards!

Glaive backpedalers doesn't need any extra speed, that's for sure

[kinngrimm]

Maybe after a certain point in agi, say 21 or 24 you start to do more damage to enemies from behind or something? To promote the agility footwork. Wouldn't apply to bows. This dmg buff could apply more to cut and pierce, as it seems it may be too easy with blunt, but it could still apply to a lesser extend. Also swords and daggers are more assassin-like so this would make sense.

...

I like the idear with higher dmg for strikes in the back
but i would set 24 as lower limit, as high lvl players will get str builds with 21 agi
also i would include a maximum str 12, as f.e. pikes would be a scary nightmare with this ability

(click to show/hide)

Level 35 (142 278 448 xp)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 21

    Skills to attributes: 10

    Ironflesh: 7
    Power Strike: 7
    Athletics: 7
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 154

Therefor if i define agi or str based builds i would base that on the assumption they go for max lvl or are at least lvl 31, while maintaining a higher attr value in either of them then the other.

[WhiteAndMilky]

Glaive backpedalers doesn't need any extra speed, that's for sure

Glaive requires too much STR for it to be used with an agility build.

[TurmoilTom]

Glaive requires too much STR for it to be used with an agility build.

Not exactly. 16/27 is a totally workable build by level 30. Same goes for 18/24 and it gets even easier at levels over 30.

[WhiteAndMilky]

Not exactly. 16/27 is a totally workable build by level 30. Same goes for 18/24 and it gets even easier at levels over 30.

Ah well maybe I am just too accustomed to high AGI builds then, I don't see an armored glaiver with 27 agi being a problem backpedalling me.. my builds would catch him! I see your point though, It would be the bane of armor stacking STR builds lol.

[WhiteAndMilky]

I like the idear with higher dmg for strikes in the back
but i would set 24 as lower limit, as high lvl players will get str builds with 21 agi
also i would include a maximum str 12, as f.e. pikes would be a scary nightmare with this ability

(click to show/hide)

Level 35 (142 278 448 xp)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 21

    Skills to attributes: 10

    Ironflesh: 7
    Power Strike: 7
    Athletics: 7
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 154

Therefor if i define agi or str based builds i would base that on the assumption they go for max lvl or are at least lvl 31, while maintaining a higher attr value in either of them then the other.

Oops missed this post. Yeah I agree with you on the pike point (hah!)

Although pike is my all-time favorite weapon, and it would be VERY fun... until everyone was doing it.

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Jelly, Kulin.

I don't see why any such buffs need to be combat specific. Agility is movement, why not help movement.

[Kafein]

Jelly, Kulin.

I don't see why any such buffs need to be combat specific. Agility is movement, why not help movement.

Because big differences in movement speed and agility fucks up melee combat by giving the fastest one an advantage the other, slower guy can only counter through the most boring playstyle of all. And that's when the slow guy got a long weapon that lets him hope for a hit. Slow movement + short weapon = 0 chances of hitting agiwhores.

I think daggers should have backstab damage bonuses scaling with agility (also, this is not really a "combat" move). But even if possible, that would require much WSE sorcery.

And a powerboat ramming a supertanker will do much damage?

The powerboat will hit, whereas the supertanker will not.

When a very small percentages of swings actually go through the block barrier (which is the rule currently), making sure you successfully hit more often will let you inflict more damage than making sure you do a lot of damage in the odd chance you hit.

[Akynos]

Ok, I'll go for blue, shall I?

Ha-Ha-Ha.

Ok, I think it's time that I state out the strengths and weaknesses of full strength before we can move on.

So lets take a 36/3 build with full plate

Advantages:

-You take a lot more hits

yes

-You deal far more damage

yes

-you can weapstun more, you can pick up mauls, etc.

yes

Now that this is out of the way, lets see...

Disadvantages:

-Anyone in the game can catch you.

After which they will get one-shotted. Two-shotted if they're lucky.

That is only if I can hit them. No one is gonna charge me. What I mean is, if I got 3 guys on my tail, they will catch me.
-Relating to above, you can be ganked easily.
-Related to note above, you cannot escape or defend yourself when ganked due to the slowness of your swings: you die outspammed.You just take a second longer to die.

Forcing glances with half-decent armor values and over 90 hp is easy, and once that glance is forced whoever is fighting you loses 80-100% of his health.

Proof that you don't know what you are talking about. I am not going to explain situations such as these. Go play the class as I stated then come back with knowledge.
-You cannot feint efficiently.

How so? It's not like movement speed changes feinting speed or anything.
There is a thing called weapon proficiency, you may have heard about it. It changes the speed at which you swing. Guess what? the less wpf you have, the slower your swings ! And if you want to feint, you want your weapon to be fast don't you? don't you? so if you have little wpf and are slow as shit with your weapon, you won't feint well, would you?

-You cannot spam.

No such thing as spam, only inability to block.
Wise looking words, but you don't make an effort to see my point.With experience, you will see what I mean.
-You cannot escape the reach of the enemy as he swings and then slash him afterwards.

Who cares? Seriously. Any opponent will miss a block at some point, and when he does chances are that you'll do to him in one hit what he can do to you in several hits.
*Hello, I'm TurmoilTom,I just keep saying the same thing in a desperate attempt to justify my point*
-You have to sell your looms to sustain the upkeep.

Back when I was full strength I wore a gambeson and fought with a practice longsword. I could still kill anyone in 3-4 hits and take 3-4 hits before going down, plus I moved as fast as a balanced build wearing heavy/medium armor. Who says strength builds need to wear expensive stuff?
Do you know what '' So let's take a 36/3 build with full plate'' means? And why have a good armor when full str? Because it's more efficient. Play game for more info.

-You have more difficulty dodging ranged attacks.

It isn't hard to put a point into shield to take 4-5 arrows, and stacking ironflesh easily lets anyone take 3-4 more.
Point into shield: less ironflesh. Ironflesh: Does it mean it is easier to dodge arrows? Noooo !

-You cannot catch an archer or an agi xbow.

So? It's not like archers can hurt anyone anymore after all the nerfs and crossbows take hella long to reload. Why would anyone bother chasing ranged as a full strength build anyway when they can just run into a group of dudes and start tearing through them?
So? So they can kite your face off anytime. I spend half of ending rounds hiding waiting for the flag because I can't catch them.Archers can't hurt anyone? Play the game. Why chase archers? Because there ain't anyone else?

-You have difficulty escaping a cavalry charge.
-related to above, you can be couched lance easily (which 1-shots you by the way)

An relatively simple solution is to block down. Another is to outreach the lance thrust with a greatsword stab. If the horseman is 1h or 2h cav it's even easier to put him down. If he's coming at you with a couched lance you can hit his horse before the couch hits you. If it kills his horse, he's boned. If it doesn't... I've survived couched lances on a full strength build before.
You survived couched lances? with what? a rouncey and a practice lance? Because I can tell you that I dont survive a couched lance, even with fully loomed milanese and heavy gauntlets. I think you never play full str and when you do, you dont get couched. And another thing, when I say ''difficulty escaping'' I don't mean ''impossible to kill''. it seems your mind goes before your eyes.

And being a full str for four generations, I know what I am talking about.

Seems like we have the same amount of experience with this kind of build.
Seems not.

Playing full str relies mostly on the mistakes of the enemy, such as a weakness in blocking skills, misplacement or badly timed attacks, which is why this build is really useful against a bunch of newbies.
However, this extreme build is a lot harder to master against veteran players who generally avoid such mistakes. That, combined with the
disadvantages stated above, is the reason why few people decide to roll full strength.

Strength builds are overpowered because you get a high reward while taking low risks at the same time. Sure, it's a build that requires your opponent to make a mistake, but it's the same with any other build. It is just more difficult to capitalize on those mistakes with a strength build, but when you do, it puts him down pretty fucking fast.
I think the added difficulty for hitting someone is balanced with the damage output. That is my opinion, however.

As I said, agi is slightly nerfed, I think that swing speed related to WPF should be increased.

yes

Anyway, I got a bit rude there, no offense, I know people have different opinions. I just feel that you do not really have a lot of experience of full str and plate.
I'm sure that if you play it a bit you will see things my way

[TurmoilTom]

Anyway, I got a bit rude there, no offense, I know people have different opinions. I just feel that you do not really have a lot of experience of full str and plate.
I'm sure that if you play it a bit you will see things my way

Basically what you're saying is that I should play the game more and then I'll agree with you.

Well that's not the case. I finished up my 39/3 gen with a KDR of 6.0:1 and I'm positive I couldn't pull that off with any other level 30 build in the game.

[Akynos]

Well, you play on NA, don't you? Perhaps things are different there. Anyway,I guess I can't make my point over the forums and I'd need to see your
gameplay. I trust you are an experienced player, so I won't go over the details again. I made my opinion clear, let's just agree on our disagreement.