Buff agility builds

[Riddaren]

First off, yes I'm lobbying. Now that that's out of the way...

Buff agility builds.

Agile builds are better than strength builds in 9/10 situations.

A strength build, which is usually slower due to lower athletics and/or heavier armour is more vulnerable when outnumbered.
That means a strength build is more dependent on teamplay. A strength build is harder to play in many ways as you can't just run away from a situation as easily.

But most of all, agile builds are superior in 1on1 situations which make up most situations.

Sure, you can do good as a noob with a strength build.
But doing really good is a lot harder with a strength build than an easy mode run away spammer build.

[TurmoilTom]

Agile builds are better than strength builds in 9/10 situations.

A strength build, which is usually slower due to lower athletics and/or heavier armour is more vulnerable when outnumbered.
That means a strength build is more dependent on teamplay. A strength build is harder to play in many ways as you can't just run away from a situation as easily.

But most of all, agile builds are superior in 1on1 situations which make up most situations.

Sure, you can do good as a noob with a strength build.
But doing really good is a lot harder with a strength build than an easy mode run away spammer build.

First off, are you a 36/3 build? Moving on...

Being outnumbered doesn't mean jack if you can take 7-8 hits before going down. So long as you plant one hit on each dude who is ganking you it's an easy win. It's even easier to survive against groups of enemies now that polestagger is gone. If you think that STR builds rely on teammates tell that to the groups of people I tore through back when I was 42/3.

My buddy Tretter puts every attribute point he can muster into his strength stat. With my current 10/33 build it takes, on average, about a dozen hits to kill him with my +3 Longsword. If he hits me once with a solid swing it puts me down instantaneously. Who cares if you get hit more often when you can survive a dozen more hits than the dude you're fighting and put him down in one swing?

Not sure if you've been informed of this, but there's no such thing as spamming. There is only inability to block.

[Ptolemy]

Agile builds are better than strength builds in 9/10 situations.

But most of all, agile builds are superior in 1on1 situations which make up most situations.

Bullshit.

[Taser]

Bullshit.

This. On a 1v1 situation, agi builds do have more speed and ath but they're made of glass. They can attack twice sometimes especially with fast weapons like katana but they take 1 or 2 hits to kill vs a str build that can take a ton more hits as well as hit like a mack truck. One slip vs a str build and you're most likely dead.

Thats not to say agi builds can't be dangerous but it depends far more on the player's skill (or lack of pride if they s key).

[Tagora]

buff bro builds

[skkk]

It should be cleared up, in my opinion you're not an agi or str build unless you have at least 6 more agi/str than the other and you shouldn't be classed as an "agi-whore" or "strength crutcher" unless you've got at least 9 more.

That said, playing 15/24 with full +3 light (ninja) armour and I get 1 hit all the time by lucky swings. This would be compensated better if it wasn't laughable how little difference athletics makes to your speed and that even touching a hill makes you suddenly the same speed as (or sometimes slower than!) that huscarl shield carrying left-swing spammer who's chasing you with his buddies.

Potential fix list:

• Buff Athletics speed.
• Buff Weapon Master WPF points.
• Remove free WPF.
• Nerf hill speed reductions.
• Adjust fall damage dependant on agility.
• Nerf HP given by strength.
• Buff acceleration speed dependant on agility.

That's all I can think of right now.

I can't agree with you more.
1. Everyone knows weapon master is almost useless for melee .
it's NO different in swing speed above 130 wpf and very TINY different in swing speed between 100 and 130 wpf .
2. i almost can not distinguish what different with ath5 , ath6 , ath7.
maybe acceleration gets a little improved but speed almost gets nothing.

why devs make agi melee skills so weak ?
SO we have no choice , BECAUSE   
IRONFLESH and POWERSTRIKE are more more more effective than weapon master and athletic .
KILLING the variety of builds is equivalent KILLING crpg.   
forgive my english.

[kinngrimm]

...

why devs make agi melee skills so weak ?
SO we have no choice , BECAUSE   
IRONFLESH and POWERSTRIKE are more more more effective than weapon master and athletic .
KILLING the variety of builds is equivalent KILLING crpg.   
forgive my english.

a long long time ago in a far away galaxy ..., a time when i was just starting to play crpg agi stacking was pretty OP and you saw tincans all over the place. The agi stacking went sofar that you had high ath builds which you never were able to hunt down and lighting fast weapon speeds where human reflexes couldn't cope with. That said, i slight buff in ath and a slightly bigger buff in wpp wouldn't hurt.
BUT as Ptolemy said perhaps those 2 aren't the only options.
Fall damage is fine, we have already to many bunny hopping tincans we don't need bungee jumpers aswell.
The Hill speed reduction is arguable, i for myselfe wouldn't see a need to buff that, as when you choose your routes wisely you are still faster then most other guys who just went up in a straight line.
Isn't the acceleration speed already influenced by agi?

Then again i point to stamina, where high agi would refill it faster and str increases the overall stamina capacity.

[Akynos]

Being outnumbered doesn't mean jack if you can take 7-8 hits before going down. So long as you plant one hit on each dude who is ganking you it's an easy win. It's even easier to survive against groups of enemies now that polestagger is gone. If you think that STR builds rely on teammates tell that to the groups of people I tore through back when I was 42/3.

Ha-Ha-Ha.

Ok, I think it's time that I state out the strengths and weaknesses of full strength before we can move on.

So lets take a 36/3 build with full plate

Advantages:

-You take a lot more hits
-You deal far more damage
-you can weapstun more, you can pick up mauls, etc.

Now that this is out of the way, lets see...

Disadvantages:

-Anyone in the game can catch you.
-Relating to above, you can be ganked easily.
-Related to note above, you cannot escape or defend yourself when ganked due to the slowness of your swings: you die outspammed.You just take a second longer to die.
-You cannot feint efficiently.
-You cannot spam.
-You cannot escape the reach of the enemy as he swings and then slash him afterwards.
-You have to sell your looms to sustain the upkeep.
-You have more difficulty dodging ranged attacks.
-You cannot catch an archer or an agi xbow.
-You have difficulty escaping a cavalry charge.
-related to above, you can be couched lance easily (which 1-shots you by the way)

And being a full str for four generations, I know what I am talking about.

Playing full str relies mostly on the mistakes of the enemy, such as a weakness in blocking skills, misplacement or badly timed attacks, which is why this build is really useful against a bunch of newbies.
However, this extreme build is a lot harder to master against veteran players who generally avoid such mistakes. That, combined with the
disadvantages stated above, is the reason why few people decide to roll full strength.

As I said, agi is slightly nerfed, I think that swing speed related to WPF should be increased.

 

Potential fix list:

• Buff Athletics speed.
• Buff Weapon Master WPF points.
• Remove free WPF.
• Nerf hill speed reductions.
• Adjust fall damage dependant on agility.
• Nerf HP given by strength.
• Buff acceleration speed dependant on agility.

That's all I can think of right now.

That is an angry ninja who only supports his own class. Get out.

[Riddaren]

First off, are you a 36/3 build? Moving on...

Why would I be 36/3?
I like agile builds way more than strength builds because they are much better.
And you talk about buffing agile builds... doesn't make any sense to me.

[OssumPawesome]

+1

wpf could definitely be better.  a 12/27 2her should do the same damage over time as a 27/12 2her.  I'm not sure if they do or not, but I feel like the 27/12 just hits much harder and doesn't have to deal with glances.  For that reason str builds are much more common.

[TurmoilTom]

Ha-Ha-Ha.

Ok, I think it's time that I state out the strengths and weaknesses of full strength before we can move on.

So lets take a 36/3 build with full plate

Advantages:

-You take a lot more hits

yes

-You deal far more damage

yes

-you can weapstun more, you can pick up mauls, etc.

yes

Now that this is out of the way, lets see...

Disadvantages:

-Anyone in the game can catch you.

After which they will get one-shotted. Two-shotted if they're lucky.

-Relating to above, you can be ganked easily.
-Related to note above, you cannot escape or defend yourself when ganked due to the slowness of your swings: you die outspammed.You just take a second longer to die.

Forcing glances with half-decent armor values and over 90 hp is easy, and once that glance is forced whoever is fighting you loses 80-100% of his health.

-You cannot feint efficiently.

How so? It's not like movement speed changes feinting speed or anything.

-You cannot spam.

No such thing as spam, only inability to block.

-You cannot escape the reach of the enemy as he swings and then slash him afterwards.

Who cares? Seriously. Any opponent will miss a block at some point, and when he does chances are that you'll do to him in one hit what he can do to you in several hits.

-You have to sell your looms to sustain the upkeep.

Back when I was full strength I wore a gambeson and fought with a practice longsword. I could still kill anyone in 3-4 hits and take 3-4 hits before going down, plus I moved as fast as a balanced build wearing heavy/medium armor. Who says strength builds need to wear expensive stuff?

-You have more difficulty dodging ranged attacks.

It isn't hard to put a point into shield to take 4-5 arrows, and stacking ironflesh easily lets anyone take 3-4 more.

-You cannot catch an archer or an agi xbow.

So? It's not like archers can hurt anyone anymore after all the nerfs and crossbows take hella long to reload. Why would anyone bother chasing ranged as a full strength build anyway when they can just run into a group of dudes and start tearing through them?

-You have difficulty escaping a cavalry charge.
-related to above, you can be couched lance easily (which 1-shots you by the way)

An relatively simple solution is to block down. Another is to outreach the lance thrust with a greatsword stab. If the horseman is 1h or 2h cav it's even easier to put him down. If he's coming at you with a couched lance you can hit his horse before the couch hits you. If it kills his horse, he's boned. If it doesn't... I've survived couched lances on a full strength build before.

And being a full str for four generations, I know what I am talking about.

Seems like we have the same amount of experience with this kind of build.

Playing full str relies mostly on the mistakes of the enemy, such as a weakness in blocking skills, misplacement or badly timed attacks, which is why this build is really useful against a bunch of newbies.
However, this extreme build is a lot harder to master against veteran players who generally avoid such mistakes. That, combined with the
disadvantages stated above, is the reason why few people decide to roll full strength.

Strength builds are overpowered because you get a high reward while taking low risks at the same time. Sure, it's a build that requires your opponent to make a mistake, but it's the same with any other build. It is just more difficult to capitalize on those mistakes with a strength build, but when you do, it puts him down pretty fucking fast.

As I said, agi is slightly nerfed, I think that swing speed related to WPF should be increased.

yes

[Kafein]

I think most of the so-called weaknesses of agi builds come from bad build and equipment choices. It's quite evident you are going to suck if you use a weapon that lacks in damage. Even though they are good players, kinngrim's or leoking's builds are excellent for any player, if played like agi builds, not like strength builds. When it comes to xbowmen and archers, agi builds reign supreme.

Strength builds require the user to land hits on people, which is probable only in clusterfuck situations. It's 2012 and people learned to block. Anything else gives the advantage to the character that has the highest chances of getting his hits in. Either by feint/hold or any of the numerous exploity things you can only do properly with the mobility advantage. Agi builds in the right hands have the ability to create occasions by themselves without being helped by actual mistakes from the other side. It's no mystery good players seeking to kill good players go for just enough strength and the rest agi.


Also, about hills, maybe it's time we stop the madness and make maps without 80% slopes everywhere.

[Leshma]

Fighting pure strength build as agi oriented build is the same as fighting especially nasty Dark Souls Boss while being SL1.

It's possible but it takes skill, and there's no room for mistakes.

[Tindel]

i seem to do best in balanced builds, which leads me to believe that agi and str are in fact balanced. Tell me why i am wrong

[Kafein]

Fighting pure strength build as agi oriented build is the same as fighting especially nasty Dark Souls Boss while being SL1.

It's possible but it takes skill, and there's no room for mistakes.

Fighting agi builds as a strength char is like trying to ram a powerboat with a supertanker.

i seem to do best in balanced builds, which leads me to believe that agi and str are in fact balanced. Tell me why i am wrong

Pretty much this.