cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Pejlaen on August 15, 2012, 03:22:28 pm

Title: Archery
Post by: Pejlaen on August 15, 2012, 03:22:28 pm
I have played Crpg as archer for 1,5 year now. No matter what is done to archery, whether all archers had one arm removed or if every 2her got an archer-seeking guided missile, I would play it, because honestly I seriously love it.

But as an archer, I have no problem at all seeing archery being remade more in a way that it is easy to learn - hard to master. I do not have an idea of how the changes should be made or what they would be, I'm leaving that to people who knows it.

If the change was made with the wishes of infantry, cavalry and archers in mind, it will most likely still be archery, just that it will take small adjustments from archers for the better of this entire game.

Okay xd, I am cheating abit and putting some ideas out there.

*Implement volleys: Just as with the shieldwall, archers should benefit from standing in formation and using their class in unity. how about this?
1.While standing in firing line your reticule only expands as most to 50% of what it was when its the most accurate.
2. If there were to be ranks, so that for example any archer with rank 5 or above can plant a banner which creates the area where the volley features will be used in. To join in, there could be a similar thing as with the battalion system, and once picked, just get to the area and you are in.
3. The one who planted the banner also has a firing command, with an animation and voice screaming "fire". Every arrow released within 2 seconds of his command will give you 1 score point.

Tried my best to make the thread structured well, I hope it is readible.
Peace

Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 15, 2012, 03:28:34 pm
Archer formation buff? Hells yeah! Maybe some sort of proximity bonus increasing accuracy as you said. I support this :)
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Spleen on August 15, 2012, 03:31:00 pm
Also Riding Formation Buff so our Santas can reign supreme? :D
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 15, 2012, 03:35:52 pm
Archers should gain extra points for shooting the enemy in the back or from the side.
This would give the ones some extra stuff who play with brain and position themselves
at the flanks of the enemy.
Also archers should get extra points or dmg when they hit an enemy directly (like 4 seconds) after
a different archer shot him (teamwork aspect).
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: korppis on August 15, 2012, 03:47:55 pm
Oh God, archer roofs would get so insane bonus on EU1 that it would propably cause stack overflow.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 15, 2012, 03:50:18 pm
Quote from: korppis on August 15, 2012, 03:47:55 pm
Oh God, archer roofs would get so insane bonus on EU1 that it would propably cause stack overflow.
Well luckily we don't have ladders there anymore :)
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: karasu on August 15, 2012, 03:50:43 pm
   Would be interesting to see some bonus applications from it, to actually get a sense of Tactical Formation in the ranged ranks, instead of the usual solo hero-ing, having in mind Strategus for the obvious reasons.

Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Strudog on August 15, 2012, 04:06:38 pm
I totally agree with this and for it to be used for other classes like cav and inf, but it always come s down to one issue, COMMUNICATION. People who are not in a clan will just wonder off and still rambo like they usually do. The usual mindset of peole is that they like to be the "Hero" and not follow commands

But i do think this is a great idea for startegus as everyone is able to communicate through TS, and pretty much the only way to be accepted these days is to be In TS.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 15, 2012, 04:10:16 pm
Quote from: strudog on August 15, 2012, 04:06:38 pm
I totally agree with this and for it to be used for other classes like cav and inf

Cav is a totally different game itself. I don't see how it could be implemented to horses as big cav formations tend to have big problems with rearing each other etc. Manouver proximity bonus? Don't really know...
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Molly on August 15, 2012, 04:30:18 pm
Easy to learn - hard to master?

Make body shots the same minor damage as limb hits and boost head damage even further.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Haboe on August 15, 2012, 04:37:56 pm
Nice idea, makes archers stick together, doing effective damage. But also makes them an easier target for inf (one greatsword-kuyak-hero can cause massacre in a packed group of archers)
This might be a nice boost to teamwork/ formations, since there will likely be pikeman protecting them from cav and shieldwalls in the front.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Arrowblood on August 15, 2012, 04:45:57 pm
Quote from: benkei on August 15, 2012, 04:30:18 pm
Easy to learn - hard to master?

Make body shots the same minor damage as limb hits and boost head damage even further.

(click to show/hide)
give  me +10 arrows then
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Shub on August 15, 2012, 04:51:24 pm
so suddenly if u stand next to some random peasant with bow u get Inspirational acuracy from Gods? Artificial bonuses are bad for player skill . You can do it without artificial crap . Tell peaople to shoot certain section of the group and thats it.

I dont think this changes would go in good direction  . it smells me of bad MMO games like WoW etc .


What i think could be improvement :
- add limb critical dmg ( leg, hands ,head , etc) so we could se crippled  Templars running around with one eye  swinging slower :D
It would deal less dmg but had a critical strike effect.

- make use of flaming arrows ( could light a fire from dropped wood , or oil , blunt arrows ( temp0rary stun effect for example)

-balance dmg and accuracy. Currently non-loomed archer is too weak  , that demotivates new players , but
loomed archer is a bit too strong 2 shots body kills on tin cans etc. I would boost bows accuracy in general add the criple effects , lowered body shots dmg in general , made head shots deadly.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 15, 2012, 04:54:33 pm
Quote from: benkei on August 15, 2012, 04:30:18 pm
Make body shots the same minor damage as limb hits and boost head damage even further.
And what about throwing which got to low accuracy to reliably headshot?
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Tzar on August 15, 2012, 04:59:24 pm
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 15, 2012, 04:54:33 pm
And what about throwing which got to low accuracy to reliably headshot?

No1 gives a shit about how shitty an screwed up throwing is.

But whining and crying because they get team wounded allways cracks me up since no1 knows how shitty the accuracy really is....
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Molly on August 15, 2012, 05:04:03 pm
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 15, 2012, 04:54:33 pm
And what about throwing which got to low accuracy to reliably headshot?
OP is "Archery" not "throwing shit around for lulz".

I used to love throwing, loved my MW War Darts, probably the first one on the server. But let's be honest, throwing always was a joke compared to everything else and that won't change. It's not loved by devs and because of that it will stay just "for lulz".
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Pejlaen on August 15, 2012, 06:08:05 pm
Quote from: benkei on August 15, 2012, 04:30:18 pm
Easy to learn - hard to master?

Make body shots the same minor damage as limb hits and boost head damage even further.

(click to show/hide)

If you have just recently started playing as an archer, standing in line with other archers and accomplishing a common goal seem to be something realisticly obtainable if you ask me. That way, there is always a place for you to be effective for your team, you do not have to be an hardcore/top noch archer that jumps out of the way of cav while headshotting them to be effective for your team.

The one thing I can think of on how to make it more easy to learn - hard to master is to improve the hitboxes. A plate wearer should have very good protection from arrows that is not specifically designed to bring him down. It should take skilled or lucky shooting to hit the weaknesses of his armor and take him down.
Easy to learn: Being an average archer with average shooting skills, being able to kill enemies wearing low or medium armor, and staying back in the archer ranks firing volleys.
Hard to master: Having the ability to shoot and wound/kill any enemy and also being effective on your own outside the Volley zone.

Also, if there were a certain stationary zone for the archers to get the benefits, I doubt that the melee fighters that wish to engage in melee with the enemies melee units will have the same interference of ranged into their duels/fights since there wont be as many stray arrows flying from every directions.

Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Shadowren on August 15, 2012, 06:16:41 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


I play with a sniper :D ( if you don't like being an Archer you can always try crossbowmen )
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Havoco on August 15, 2012, 06:19:09 pm
Hmm, so it would buff standing together, but would it nerf anything with current archery?
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Pejlaen on August 15, 2012, 07:45:01 pm
Quote from: Havoco on August 15, 2012, 06:19:09 pm
Hmm, so it would buff standing together, but would it nerf anything with current archery?

I dont think so, the way I feel is that it would reward dedicated archers that puts time into training
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Molly on August 15, 2012, 08:00:03 pm
My problem is that there either too many archers or they are dealing too much damage. Giving them an opportunity to even multiply their damage with some aoe-buff doesnt appeal to me.

Currently I have 18 strength and 6 IF, wearing a Mongol Armor +2. After being hint 2 times to the body I am dead or so low on hp that a sneeze by someone could kill me. Take the hilarious shooting speed of archers into account and you might understand my frustration with 20+ ranged on EU1 regularly.
And it's not just me or some 2h-heroes complaining. There is a common "dislike" on the server for the amount of ranged. Not necessarily the kiting, the reload speed or the damage. The problem is the amount of them.
No surprise that people start to play siege more often or even start to roll archer/crossbowmen and shoot back. EU1 barely reaches the 100+ playercount anymore. I remember times when I had to ask a teammate on the server to make the admin kick specs so I could join. Hell, Franky got banned 48h for excessive spectating with the reason that "he is denying others to play". Now we have a shiny 200 slot server which has as much players as NA1 at times it used to crowded before.

So in short: Yes to everything that gives archers a harder time as now and if it leads to a decrease in archer population. No to everything that would make it even slightly "cool" to play and attract even more.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: owens on August 16, 2012, 01:29:33 am
I hate to say it but the solution is for people to stop this optimized build madness. It is time for 2H to carry shields again.

It hasn't happened for a long time but 1H being the most powerful class has got to start pulling its weight again.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Winterly on August 16, 2012, 02:53:03 am
I don't even play archer and I hate archers as a cav player but I like this idea of cooperation so much that I'll support it....

-How about for every 1 archer next to each other, add 2-3 effective WPF?
         So a line of 5 archers will grant an extra 10-15 WPF which translate to 1.5% dmg increase + accuracy bonus for all archers in the line
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: owens on August 16, 2012, 03:33:08 am
That was one great thing about NW having certain classes near you was an advantage eyeglasses gave nearbye infantry better accuracy for instance, drummers reload speed. These are useless classes in actual combat but i think adding some special items/area effects to cRPG couldnt hurt.

Especially since the bonus's are not worth the sacrifice of a soldier uneless the benefiting group is massive.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Torost on August 16, 2012, 04:15:30 am
I always wanted a mechanic that was more intuitive, aim and draw bow and the same time, the longer you hold in the LMB the more force you use on the bowstring. Release LMB = releasing the arrow. Instantly. Arch and missilespeed calculated from angle and force.
This is possibly too hard to implement in crpg.

A variation is: slower missile speed, making it arch much earlier.
Anything above closerange would be indirect fire. Volleys. Higher rate of fire would make for a rain of arrows if 5-6 archers teamed up, leave the sniping to the crossbows.

Putting the Arch back in Archery! :)
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: owens on August 16, 2012, 04:53:02 am
Forcing in team play is not fair. Stick to positive reinforcement
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 16, 2012, 11:05:28 am
Adding factors that reward teamplay is what we need. At the moment Battle rather feels like deathmatch.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Molly on August 16, 2012, 12:10:19 pm
Quote from: Grumpy_Nic on August 16, 2012, 11:05:28 am
Adding factors that reward teamplay is what we need. At the moment Battle rather feels like deathmatch.
It actually has never been different. Just because 8 players (mostly 2h/pole) maraud over the map sticking together doesn't mean they are teamplaying.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: bredeus on August 16, 2012, 12:17:11 pm
Some people and clans are always trying to fight as a team and sometimes it can make the difference.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Molly on August 16, 2012, 12:28:40 pm
The "Teamplay" you're talking about is just ganking. There is no "teamplay" in cRPG.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 16, 2012, 12:36:06 pm
Never said we had teamplay. But I want it
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Bulzur on August 16, 2012, 12:41:10 pm
Quote from: benkei on August 16, 2012, 12:28:40 pm
The "Teamplay" you're talking about is just ganking. There is no "teamplay" in cRPG.


Ganking is by definition "people in the same team attacking the same player."
Teamplay is "people in the same team playing together"

Counter example :
Team of three ranges
Range A focused any cav from North, to West to South, coming too close.
Range B focused any cav from North, to East to South, coming too close.
Range C focuses melees.

Of course, for melee, teamplay is usually ganking. But it's needed, since game has become slow thanks to most of the players having learned how to block.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Molly on August 16, 2012, 01:02:53 pm
Shooting the same target, hitting the same target isn't teamplay by my definition. Teamplay is not achievable in cRPG.

In my book teamplay means that there has to be a certain mix of "classes" using their strength to achieve a certain goal. The only goal in cRPG is to kill as many as possible.
The only difference are strat battles where shielder have to block arrows from shooting the builder... just as an example.

The only thing I can imagine as teamplay in battle/siege is the shielder blocking arrows from the reloading xbowman. Other than that? And even that is a rather rare sight.

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming anyone. It's just the whole game doesn't need teamplay at all. Archers shoot their best opportunity for a hit, piker will try to get a horse, xbowmen will try to aim for the head and probably on rather long distance, 2h will try to get on the outside of a clusterfuck, polearms will try to stay on distance and so on. Everyone is just playing their weapons. But teamplay? Not really. The gamemechanics, winning conditions and playerbase aren't made for real teamplay.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 16, 2012, 01:13:44 pm
To a certain degree there is teamplay. And pretty easy to be done if people would stop being one man armies. You've already started with shield protecting xbow.

I currently play polearm. I try to support shielders with longspear, have attack readied to make pressure on opponents while shield tanks him. I'd say thats teamplay, on a very small scale though.
Longspear protecting an archer on a rather open map, did that too often, works great.
Archer shooting into melee, if the melee guy is aware of that and acts accordingly - teamplay.
Tactical horsebumping to help an archer run away from melee guys or to give his melee ally a free hit on a grounded enemy - teamplay.

Now this happens from time to time, often just by chance and then its called "killstealing". But if you already start the round knowing that you have support from certain allies would also change the playstyle.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Molly on August 16, 2012, 01:29:48 pm
Yea, shielder protecting xbowman was just one example.

If I see a horse coming to the enemy in front if me I try to change the angle in a way the enemy is facing his back to my cav guy. When I see an archer aiming at my enemy, again, I try to change the angle, try to time my attack with the reload of the archer.
We all know those kind of situations and yes, that is teamplay but that is the only teamplay happening and in 90% it's just by accident and happens once a week.

I'd love to see this kind of behaviour more often but you would need a smart inf, a smart archer and a smart cav for it to work and the smart-part is exactly the point I have high doubts when it comes to this community.
Atm the inf want the kill badly, the archer wants the kill badly and so does the cav too. Ends in teamwounding, ragepolling and cursing like a truck driver. That is the cRPG-reality.

The fact that actually everyone can easily kill as solo-hero isn't really helpful either. One of the reasons I hate the idea of making the game faster and that way even "harder" for "normal" players and better for all those elitist-2h-hero-wankers...
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 16, 2012, 02:10:43 pm
Quote from: benkei on August 16, 2012, 01:29:48 pm
I'd love to see this kind of behaviour more often but you would need a smart inf, a smart archer and a smart cav for it to work and the smart-part is exactly the point I have high doubts when it comes to this community.
Atm the inf want the kill badly, the archer wants the kill badly and so does the cav too. Ends in teamwounding, ragepolling and cursing like a truck driver. That is the cRPG-reality.

Well that pretty much sums up this game... at the moment. I hope that it will become super-awesome after some major changes... We'll have to trust chadz on this  :mrgreen:

Also chadz, häng dich rein, wir zähln auf dich  :D
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Pejlaen on September 07, 2012, 05:14:20 pm
I got horseBUMPed today
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Sultan Eren on September 07, 2012, 06:06:15 pm
I like that formation buff thing for all classes. +1
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Stormcrow on September 07, 2012, 07:47:55 pm
archery doesnt need a buff in anyway. It is fine the way it is

You can top the score board if you're good and if you suck then you deserve to be at the bottom

end of story
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: OssumPawesome on September 07, 2012, 08:47:39 pm
I think archer volleys would be sweet, but there are several problems.  First of all - op's suggestions are not at all practical.  Also a key part of crpg is having different weapons and classes - meaning different damage and firing speed.  I think maybe the best and easiest solution to this would be some chat command to form archer firing line.

On that note chat commands are way messed up.  Some of the letters even overlap - I am attacking their equipment and I am attacking the right flank are both mapped to e so you can only attack equipment and never the right flank =(.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: JennaHaze on September 07, 2012, 08:49:48 pm
Why dont 2handers get berserk bonus when they stand close?
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: OpenPalm on September 07, 2012, 09:18:14 pm
Archers get an implicit buff by being in formations already.  Would you want to try and take a flag that had a hallway leading to it, and 4 archers on the other side without a shield?
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on September 07, 2012, 10:46:47 pm
I could totally see archer formation, and cavalry formations added.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 07, 2012, 11:19:53 pm
Quote from: OpenPalm on September 07, 2012, 09:18:14 pm
Archers get an implicit buff by being in formations already.
Not exactly. It is 50% base damage for strat +10% per adjacent archer to a max of 100%, so it is like they have a nerf if they don't stand in formations.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: haxKingdom on September 10, 2012, 01:49:20 am
they should remove the impact having a shield on ur back does for 2hs to defend against archers
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Pejlaen on January 01, 2013, 01:30:48 pm
--------------------
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Templar_Steevee on January 03, 2013, 08:13:01 pm
This idea with formations for archers was already tried in strat battles and it failed.

Quote from: Tears of Destiny on September 07, 2012, 11:19:53 pm
Not exactly. It is 50% base damage for strat +10% per adjacent archer to a max of 100%, so it is like they have a nerf if they don't stand in formations.

That was something like that, but thoe worst thing were "magic winds". Single archer can't hit shit, and dmg was awful: guys in nordic helmets (non loomed) were able to survive headshot from 2meters with MW long bow and MW bodkins...

But pls, tell me what makes archers staying in one line to aim better at deal better dmg? They wisper to each other in elven language? Or they are making an aerodynamical tunnel for arrows?

IMO this is a game about killing in middle ages. It should be realistic as much as possible, and devs are trying to do that and in the same time try to ballance it.

In battle you have to have 2 things: proper equipment and skills (I mean bulid and personall skills). But it's not enougth. If you want to bee good you have to THINK.


Title: Re: Archery
Post by: Pejlaen on October 18, 2014, 07:16:53 pm
It is almost 2015, and the motherf****ing necrophilia is strong in this one for bumping this.
Title: Re: Archery
Post by: lombardsoup on October 18, 2014, 07:44:45 pm
Quote from: Pejlaen on October 18, 2014, 07:16:53 pm
It is almost 2015, and the motherf****ing necrophilia is strong in this one for bumping this.

*looks at sig*

Loving ranged to the point where you're screwing archer corpses hmm?