cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Whalen207 on April 07, 2011, 03:32:49 am
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"AGI? What's that?" -Any experienced player
tl;dr - You can either be a track runner or a walking tank.
Strength Advantages:
- Using superior weapons / armor
- Essential skills (Powerstrike - For Melee, Powerdraw - For Archers)
- Modifier for blocking (vs. crushthrough)
- Bonus to base attack
- Modifier for crushthrough
- Can pierce heavier armor
- Health increase (w/ Ironflesh)
- Small WPF boost every skill up
Agility Advantages:
- Slight bonus to melee attack speed
- Faster strafing (w/ Athletics)
- Essential skill (Riding - For Horsemen)
As is made obvious here, AGI is at a serious disadvantage.
You need STR to get weapons that even allow you to function normally as a player. It's an essential skill. AGI however, is not an essential skill. It is just barely needed for horsemen (2 riding or more) and "recommended" because weapon master requires it. As horsemen become more and more rare due to the buffing of pike-related polearms and newly-introduced upkeep, the former "advantage" will diminish. A player can have a character with 30+ strength and function normally, if not better in melee (and ranged). However a player with minimal strength and maximum agility would find it hard to pierce the thinnest of armors and would be likely clad in paper-mache plate.
I just took a survey on the NA server as the round started. Although I doubt everyone that applied would have responded as some did, I tallied up a total of four characters (including mine) that had 6+ more Agility than Strength. Compared to the other 55 players on the server this is an insignificant amount.
So, it's not a question that AGI needs a small buff, it's the question of what to buff. I recommend a small bonus to ranged attacked speed (currently only choice of bow and wpf increased ranged speed) and a larger bonus to melee speed (but not significantly so). I would also appreciate it if AGI gave you WPF points to spend or at least had a similiar effect to single-player's weapon master skill (lowering cost of WPF).
Taking suggestions.
:mrgreen:
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maybe for each point in agi give 10 wpf...
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According to WaltF4's findings, agil no longer gives any passive bonuses, so there are no increases in weapon speed at all apart from the speed increase with wpf. And remember, some important agil skills were also nerfed. chadz is a famous horse hater, so people are not surprised with the various riding nerfs, but agility apparently got a nerf, and WM got indirectly nerfed with the higher costs to improve skills.
In short, chadz should have been a mule not a donkey for less horse hate, and is also an agility hater.
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I have to disagree with a few points here.
- Using superior weapons / armor
You need str for weapons/armor but hardly ever need str focused build to use them
- Essential skills (Powerstrike - For Melee, Powerdraw - For Archers)
- Bonus to base attack
- Can pierce heavier armor
All the same, obviously true and very strong though
- Modifier for crushthrough
- Modifier for blocking (vs. crushthrough)
Broken atm, will be fixed soon hopefully
- Small WPF boost every skill up
Where did you get that from? If that's in just take it out
- Slight bonus to melee attack speed
Myth?
Some points for agi are missing:
-Shield
-Flanking
-Hybrids (for pure you can go more PS, for hybrid more WM)
As horsemen become more and more rare due to the buffing of pike-related polearms and newly-introduced upkeep, the former "advantage" will diminish.
If horsemen become rare there is more room for agi based hit and run tactics, that a str build is helpless against. But I don't see that happen actually.
I just took a survey on the NA server as the round started. Although I doubt everyone that applied would have responded as some did, I tallied up a total of four characters (including mine) that had 6+ more Agility than Strength. Compared to the other 55 players on the server this is an insignificant amount.
Make real survey, like a poll here. Asking in a small round is obviously flawed. chadz can just look in the database though if we wants.
I have to say I personally have no problem playing an agi based build as it is now, there's a couple of obviously agi players who do fairly well also. Only thing that I dislike is how you seem to lose all advantage of athletics when you wear medium armor. As for extreme builds, imo they should be pretty gimped in other areas and since agility isn't for damage they should be obviously very bad at damaging. Play steel shield brickwall, bait, archerhunter instead.
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The point is that you need at least some strength. There are numerous builds out there that don't put a point into agility and function quite well.
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- Using superior weapons / armor
With 12 str you can use most weapons and all the armors you'd like to use. Sure it limits you from the plates, but what is the point of going high athletics and wearing plate?
- Modifier for blocking (vs. crushthrough)
- Bonus to base attack
- Modifier for crushthrough
- Can pierce heavier armor
- Small WPF boost every skill up
All 5 are wrong. The pierce armor thing is a result of the PS which is mentioned above it, not a direct result of str.
Yes, going str 3 build is idiotic, while agi 3 is feasible. Even a small investment in str is sufficient to be an effective mosquito. Damage is very high and many people wear light armor so 10 PS is really not a requirement. I see the main advatage of an agi build as the ability to use more than one melee weapon effectively, so I can go 100+ on both 1H and 2H or poles, saving me the need to level several alts in parallel.
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Yeah. Eponico, all you say, is a truth - partially. Because OP doesnt mean that agi at all is useless, but pure agi builds are useless...
I'd suggest two things.
Either more wpf from WM or give about 15wpf from every agi point.
And regulate wpf cap so full agi stacker (lets say 9str 30agi) can get 230wpf, but build with about 18agi same as now - about 160(! while 30 agi build gets 190wpf - WTF?). You have to regulate hybrids, too, so that much of wpf wont let them build as strong chars as now.
+ obviously give us back athletics buff, so we have much higher run speed when we have 10 athletics. Not only manouverability.
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Agility Advantages:
- Slight bonus to melee attack speed
That was removed with the upkeep patch, agility doesn't increase attack speed anymore.
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You forgot to mention that str also increases e-penis size by 3% per point.
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Agi builds aren't as good as they used to be, but they are still far from useless. I know from experience that an agi shielder can be an unholy death machine thanks to the magic that is speed bonus.
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Agi builds aren't as good as they used to be, but they are still far from useless. I know from experience that an agi shielder can be an unholy death machine thanks to the magic that is speed bonus.
Problem is: shields are so slow that feinting is highly ineffective. Shield speed should be increased.
@mouthnhoof
I know its nit-picking, but each point in strength does add a very small bonus to damage. You are correct though in saying that the overwhelming benefit comes from PS and not strength itself.
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Give more wpf per AGI point. Wpf increases damage and attack speed in most weapons and with enough points it may make AGI builds a more reasonable alternative to STR builds. It may be best to aim for the balance: STR biased builds can hit hard with heavier/bigger weapons while AGI biased builds can hit faster for moderate damage with lighter/smaller weapons. If this works well then there'd be workable routes to suit different playstyles with a lot of room for hybridization. As it stands STR builds have good speed, high damage, and big weapons (length, crushthrough, diversity, etc.) while AGI builds have high shield skill to use with their horses :?
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Problem is: shields are so slow that feinting is highly ineffective. Shield speed should be increased.
lol.
Ever saw Merc_Varyag playing?
Or Ruconquista_DimaUrban?
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Agility IS for the weak
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Problem is: shields are so slow that feinting is highly ineffective.
Say this to my 1h+shield char.
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You forgot speed bonus advantage @ AGI.
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I'm trying my first STR build above 18, specifically because Agi provides no bonuses besides the related skill unlocks.
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You forgot speed bonus advantage @ AGI.
Someone said earlier that it doesn't give a weapon speed bonus anymore.
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Someone said earlier that it doesn't give a weapon speed bonus anymore.
Was it a dev?
Because obviously, wpf makes you swing faster and so does AGI. Faster swinging = higher speed bonuses.
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Was it a dev?
Because obviously, wpf makes you swing faster and so does AGI. Faster swinging = higher speed bonuses.
WPF is now the only thing that increases attack speed Bjord, check this out http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531
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WPF is now the only thing that increases attack speed Bjord, check this out http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531
Yes and I just got it confirmed from cmpxchgb8 too.
Sorry. :oops:
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As one of the highest str chars currently playing I can tell you that str has nothing at all to do with defense against crush through
Also skilled players with agi kick a high str char's ass in 1 v 1
With all the QQing lately about str builds I'm thinking abotu going 3/36 next gen just to lulululul
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^^this
Also if you think agi builds aren't effective, you haven't seen an agi shielder with a steel pick.
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So uhm... Apparently AGI has no bonuses except those from related skills.
It's good for mult-tiering and shielders. A little for horsemen.
That's about it.
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Agility = athletics = ridiculous speed bonus = win!
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WPF is now the only thing that increases attack speed
It was always like this, that's hardcoded stuff.
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Agility = athletics = ridiculous speed bonus = win!
I think athletics was nerfed in the last patch. I find that I'm among the fastest on the field in medium armour and 5-6 agility, often racing on par with the agi-based ninjas. After a certain point there doesn't seem to be much of an effect at all. Do other folks have any proper stats on this?
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Say this to my 1h+shield char.
To JoG's 1h+Shield char: Feinting with a shield is much more ineffective than feinting without a shield.
I have a shielder too, feints are slower and ergo, much less effective.
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I think athletics was nerfed in the last patch. I find that I'm among the fastest on the field in medium armour and 5-6 agility, often racing on par with the agi-based ninjas. After a certain point there doesn't seem to be much of an effect at all. Do other folks have any proper stats on this?
I finally found my favorite mix number wise, this build. its almost at 30, where it'll be 15/24 str/agi, 5 ps 8 ath, 8 wm. I've found getting the max out of my foot speed requires being very strict about equipment loadouts. I wear a rabati, tribal warrior outfit, sarranid leather boots and leather gloves . 3 pound spiked mace and light crossbow, one bag of bolts. I switched to boots down from splinted leather greaves over mail (1.5kg difference) and the light crossbow from regular crossbow (.5 kg difference), and that little amount was what was holding me back from running at what felt like 7 athletics.
So maybe encumbrance is a big issue with seeing full agi benefits.
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I think athletics was nerfed in the last patch. I find that I'm among the fastest on the field in medium armour and 5-6 agility, often racing on par with the agi-based ninjas. After a certain point there doesn't seem to be much of an effect at all. Do other folks have any proper stats on this?
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3278.0.html
Much of this thread needs to reference this.
Also; Athletics was not nerfed in the last patch. However, it rains a large deal of the time. Rain decreases movement speed by a lot & Xbow damage by a lot, among other things.
We honestly need to sticky WaltF4's threads on athletics and agility.
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As one of the highest str chars currently playing I can tell you that str has nothing at all to do with defense against crush through
Also skilled players with agi kick a high str char's ass in 1 v 1
With all the QQing lately about str builds I'm thinking abotu going 3/36 next gen just to lulululul
lololol will be on you, 9 str is pretty much minimun if you want your crpg experience to involve hitting players...
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As one of the highest str chars currently playing I can tell you that str has nothing at all to do with defense against crush through
Also skilled players with agi kick a high str char's ass in 1 v 1
With all the QQing lately about str builds I'm thinking abotu going 3/36 next gen just to lulululul
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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I'm trying my first STR build above 18, specifically because Agi provides no bonuses besides the related skill unlocks.
str provides only hits besides the skills/item requirement unlocks.
If you could increase str or agi and this does not raise a skill limit it is basically a choice between 1 more HP and a small runspeed bonus.
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lololol will be on you, 9 str is pretty much minimun if you want your crpg experience to involve hitting players...
As someone knowing from experience, This is not true at all.
3 strength builds can use several pretty good weapons, and can get kills.
List of weapons for ultra max killing dudes with 3 strength:
Shortened spear, Spear, Nomad sabre, Short word, Nordic Short Sword.
List of weapons for cool dudes with 3 strength:
Light Spiked Club, Long dagger, khyber knife, cleaver, [insert peasant/practice weapon Such as Scythe, Sickle, etc.]
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Sadly though with the 3 strength, against higher armored dudes you have to completely rely on running in and out to get hits. It took quite a while to take down heavily armored people, since I had to rely on pretty much the highest speed bonus I could get. Well, unless they made the mistake of running without a helmet. Fire_to_light_the_way had a few fun times killing helmetless people.
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I regularly could killed Wallace in duels with a shortened spear with 3 strength.
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Oh, shortened spear I could definitely see. I only used one handed weapons, so, not much in the way of high pierce damage with that low strength.
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I regularly could killed Wallace in duels with a shortened spear with 3 strength.
I'd like to see a video of that.
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I went all str build lol and I agree now, AGI sucks.
Agi is good if you're a hybrid or you want a bit more running speed.. Or shield if you're 1h+ shield, but otherwise it seems pretty much pointless since my 0wm allows me 100+ wpf in 2h which is more than enough to not be out spammed. xD
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Agi and high athl is what protects me against ranged, few ranged people can hit me when I spasm with my mouse. High athl really complements my long hafted blade. Superior speed and superior range makes that I rarely have to block (except 2h stabs with their ridiculous range) Against shielders my high agi is great fun too. I hit their shield, run backwards and get my next hit in before their missed slash has even finished. To make the most out of polearm stun, high agi is required.
I also hate being slow in a battle. When the last enemies are far away its just wonderful to be there in no time. Also with nine athlethics I outrun pretty much everyone and I dont believe 5-6 athl characters could keep up with me. So I love agi but I have never used a strength build so dont have something to compare it too.
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Long Hafted Blade is LOLSWORD of polearms, too easy for too little effort. These days only people who impress me is 1h noshielders.
As to 3 STR chars: No. Sorry, fun idea, I tried it too, but realistically: NO
Can be made of course, and you will have some fun, but once you have done the running trick once on a guy he wont let u again.
NOW: Of COURSE u can make 3 STR build and get kills.
You can make a all STR build and kill with punches if you find enough noobs, get lucky, etc.
But against people who are not the zerg, NO.
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Long Hafted Blade is LOLSWORD of polearms, too easy for too little effort. These days only people who impress me is 1h noshielders.
So if almost everything is easy isn't it evenly fair?
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I'd like to see a video of that.
Sorry, I didn't see the point of recording something like that.
The fights between me and wallace went like this:
Me stabbing him a lot with slightly held attacks varying in time so he couldn't chamber me. When he did chamber me, I just chambered his attack right back at him.
He is too slow to hit me with a regular attack since I had 10 ath 10 WM and have decent footwork & blocking.
-- I still lost a lot to him, because if i get hit once I die. But I beat him more than lost. If he put on a gambeson and such light armor, his chambers come back at me too fast for me to chamber. he is a better dueler without the armor. It lowers his WPF and he has 3 agi as it is :)
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he is a better dueler without the armor. It lowers his WPF and he has 3 agi as it is :)
and this is the issue. Its a duel. I too have tried to make a nearly pure (only 6 strength) agility character, and I found it realistically unviable for battle or siege. Speed is more important in a duel with controlled conditions, but in a battle, there are many other factors which makes strength the superior stat.
Marathon, you're a good enough player that you could get kills even with a bad build, but I bet you would be a lot more effective with some points in strength and PS.
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and this is the issue. Its a duel. I too have tried to make a nearly pure (only 6 strength) agility character, and I found it realistically unviable for battle or siege. Speed is more important in a duel with controlled conditions, but in a battle, there are many other factors which makes strength the superior stat.
Marathon, you're a good enough player that you could get kills even with a bad build, but I bet you would be a lot more effective with some points in strength and PS.
You're NA I take it? Cause otherwise you would see sleggs_handler on EU with 3/39 build and spear regulary killing people in battle and having possitive KDR, from time to time even topping the scoreboards. It's far from useless, the only downside is, obviously, that he dies in 2 arrows or 1-2 hits.
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You're NA I take it? Cause otherwise you would see sleggs_handler on EU with 3/39 build and spear regulary killing people in battle and having possitive KDR, from time to time even topping the scoreboards. It's far from useless, the only downside is, obviously, that he dies in 2 arrows or 1-2 hits.
1 arrow.
1 hit.
as someone who has used such a build, unless they are using a hunting bow or a practice sword you are going to die in 1 hit.
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First steps to balance str and agi should be:
Str should no longer give 1 hp itself. Instead, every Ironflesh gives 5 hp.
So agi will give small speed bonus only and str will give small dmg bonus only.
Then, no wpfs per lvl up. Instead, place those points in WM.
And then, rebalance WM so it gives much more points from 9-and-higher WM.
In the end, make it so it will rain less often.
Would solve lots of problems, though not all.
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You're NA I take it? Cause otherwise you would see sleggs_handler on EU with 3/39 build and spear regulary killing people in battle and having possitive KDR, from time to time even topping the scoreboards. It's far from useless, the only downside is, obviously, that he dies in 2 arrows or 1-2 hits.
NA indeed.
You will always find one person who can take a bad build and survive with it. My argument is that the advantages of strength greatly outweigh the advantages of agility. Rather than using anecdotes, lets look at what each offers.
Strength:
More HP Per point
More damage per Point
Basic requirement for some weapons and most armor
Strength Attributes:
Power Strike- More damage, reduced chance of glancing, increased chance of crush-through (with applicable weapons)
Iron Flesh- More health
Power Draw- Base requirement for bows, increases damage for bows.
Power Throw- Base requirement for throwing, increases damage for throwing.
Agility:
No benefit in c-rpg (.5% attack speed increase is said to be a myth)
Agility attributes:
Athletics- Said to have been nerfed in recent patch. After some experimenting, I think there might be some truth to these rumors. A top speed cap may have been implemented.
Shield- Base requirement for shields. Increases "force field" around shields. Increases block speed in a minute fashion.
Weapon Master- 20 more WPF & +1 more WPF per level.
Riding- Base requirement for horses. Increases riding speed. Only useful for horseback characters
Horse Archery- Increased accuracy for ranged weapons on moving horses. Only useful for ranged horseback characters.
@Dravic, I believe the strength-hp bonus is hard coded, as well as the benefit of IF.
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Athletics is not speed limit capped. --unless you are in a keep or going down stairs.
Rain slows you down a lot.
weight slows you. Although that makes sense; it scales in a weird way so that if you have medium armor or higher the bonus to top speed is mostly irrelevant. Just how the weight system works...
It just rains a lot since patch, which slows you to molasses.
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I regularly could killed Wallace in duels with a shortened spear with 3 strength.
oh the speed... i have nightmares of people running out of my swing before i can complete them... even when i chamber
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Agility:
No benefit in c-rpg (.5% attack speed increase is said to be a myth)
Agility DOES give a speed bonus to running regardless of athletics as recent testing showed. It is still debated whether this is only to the acceleration or to the top speed as well. As far as I know, crpg did not change anything in the Agility bonus which is hardcoded.
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Agility DOES give a speed bonus to running regardless of athletics as recent testing showed. It is still debated whether this is only to the acceleration or to the top speed as well. As far as I know, crpg did not change anything in the Agility bonus which is hardcoded.
Link to the updated testing showing Agi points does affect runspeed? Does it affect weapon swinging like pre-patch?
That's the big question. What are you getting for your agi points?
If all it does is unlock skills, it's far less useful than Str.
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Link to the updated testing showing Agi points does affect runspeed? Does it affect weapon swinging like pre-patch?
Each point of agility changes running speed by 20-25% as much as a rank of athletics. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3278.msg58740.html#msg58740)
Agility does not directly modify weapon swing speed. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.msg42737.html#msg42737)
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I'll run my own tests soon regarding the agility=runspeed idea. There are a few possibilities which might explain the speed differences that I'm not 100% convinced you have ruled out at the moment. I'll post my results later tonight.
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Hardly worth it really when strength gives you damage bonus and hp compared to (acceleration?) run speed bonus.
The wpf table is rigged now for hybrids and low weapon mastery characters also.
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Strength in itself does not give damage bonus, it only raises PS cap.
If you can raise a stst by 1 point it is basically a choice between 1 HP or movement speed.
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Strength DOES increase damage bonus itself.
Check on calculator.
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm (http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm)
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be careful not to take that damage calculator as gospel. I've noticed some inaccuracies with it.
In this case though, strength does in fact increase damage as is shown on the charts listed in the damage calculations.
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Strength DOES increase damage bonus itself.
Check on calculator.
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm (http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm)
That calculator is based on posts in the taleworlds forum that later were shown to be wrong (the str part of damage). It has not been updated.
I can't be bothered to look for the thread.
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Bump and link http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3172.0.html