cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: buy_dsr on January 05, 2011, 08:29:13 pm

Title: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: buy_dsr on January 05, 2011, 08:29:13 pm
post patch how many agility points do i need to invest in order to skill up horse archery?
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Braeden on January 05, 2011, 08:30:06 pm
6
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: buy_dsr on January 05, 2011, 08:32:39 pm
so HA is no longer a viable build?
the new level cap is what now 30?
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Shogunate_Subotai_III on January 05, 2011, 08:33:49 pm
Quote from: buy_dsr on January 05, 2011, 08:32:39 pm
so HA is no longer a viable build?
the new level cap is what now 30?

youre right boy!

go better for lancer
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: cmp on January 05, 2011, 08:35:17 pm
Quote from: buy_dsr on January 05, 2011, 08:32:39 pm
so HA is no longer a viable build?
HA is a viable build.
Armored horse trampler sniper is not.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: buy_dsr on January 05, 2011, 08:45:29 pm
i never cared for the trampling its the accuracy that matters and for that 4 HA is minimum unless something positive has been done with archery and that I doubt it
btw the new animation made me furious i had to quit the game real fast  :cry:
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Shogunate_Subotai_III on January 06, 2011, 02:45:32 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on January 05, 2011, 08:35:17 pm
HA is a viable build.
Armored horse trampler sniper is not.

sorry mate absolute wrong!

Every "good" HA admits that it is broken, and i dont know where you got your information. Its allright that we have no right to judge chadz cause of the patch but plz dont stamp us as idiots its really annoying.

I have played many months as HA and have been considered as one of the Top5 HA and have done alot of Duels against other HA.

So plz stop to act as the devils advocat :-(
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Farrok on January 06, 2011, 03:24:04 pm
nowadays as horse archer you cant deal damage and cant hit your targets...wow we have a horsie thats it...when you stay on foot you are better in all ways...as horse archer the only thing i do is run over the enemies it do far more damage than with bow and its easier to hit the enemies.

with the new wpp costs and damage nerf you need atleast 5 HA, so 30 agi...impossible


suggestion for (Horse) Archer:

-change Horse Archery to 5 points per agi
(i would like to have it 3 per agi like riding but this would be not balanced anymore XD)...this way you still need many points but can be a horse archer without endless grind past lvl30
(it was hard before to be an HA under lvl31, it was nerfed because of the lvl37+ guys i think...-.-)

-change Bow damage back to pierce(why only bows? they are slower and have less accuracy, crossbow have still pierce)
OR when you want to keep the uselessness against plate than atleast put some points to damage
3-4 points to damage at each bow would be enough


the problem is the overnerfing, hey no Armored HA anymore but "normal" light armored HA now are impossible to make too or better say you can do it but you have only disadvantages...better go crappy foot archer or go xbowman its way better and still didnt need any points
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: bruce on January 06, 2011, 04:15:22 pm
Quote from: Farrok on January 06, 2011, 03:24:04 pm
"normal" light armored HA now are impossible to make too

No, they're not impossible to make, they're just not easymode.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Ujin on January 06, 2011, 04:19:23 pm
Quote from: bruce on January 06, 2011, 04:15:22 pm
No, they're not impossible to make, they're just not easymode.
They are "randommode", which is not any better.  The current amount of noob cavalry running around trampling people is not any better than 2-3 good horse archers killing people before the patch, either.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Keshian on January 06, 2011, 05:11:03 pm
Its pretty basic, dont waste points and you can do 12 str, 24 agi (2 converted pts) and you have 8 riding with 4 HA and 4 pwr drw and 8 weaponmaster all in archery.  With the extra speed and maneuvarability of 8 riding it really isnt that bad at all to be a HA, Ive seens everal people already doing well.  You can even go heavy horse with heavy armor temporarily, just inaccurate shooting (heavy armor) which many HA already were except the really good ones.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Murchad on January 06, 2011, 05:13:09 pm
HA is still very viable, light HA is able to survive better due to the rate of fire and damage decrease across the board for archers (xbow is biggest danger)
acurracy is not that bad with 4HA, you can go 5HA if you want still with nomad bow.
i agree that they overnerfed it but i will adapt.

A horsearchers role has changed.
it is no longer godmode like it was

you have to get closer to enemies if you want to shoot them riding at full gallop.
you have to shoot them more times
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Shogunate_Subotai_III on January 06, 2011, 05:14:01 pm
Quote from: bruce on January 06, 2011, 04:15:22 pm
No, they're not impossible to make, they're just not easymode.

Bruce you tried it by yourself? I dont think so....

yeah and btw we are all a bunch of noobs or what?
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: bruce on January 06, 2011, 05:16:08 pm
Quote from: Shogunate_Subotai_III on January 06, 2011, 05:14:01 pm
Bruce you tried it by yourself? I dont think so....

yeah and btw we are all a bunch of noobs or what?

Given I have my light horse shot out under me by three arrows by any HA I'd say it's not that gimped, you know?

And yes, you probably are, since I see good HAs do well (eg Cris).

Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Cris on January 06, 2011, 05:22:51 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on January 05, 2011, 08:35:17 pm
HA is a viable build.
Armored horse trampler sniper is not.

Actually...Given real trained HA can accuratly shoot at speed, our new reticule with a "accurate/balanced build" is really bad with this patch...

Level 30 HA. With 155 WPP, PD4 and HA4

Pick here
(click to show/hide)

That it's me, zoomed of course, when the reticule is at its "closest" point at full speed...

Compared that before patch I had a perfect reticule at full speed on courser and also had PD6, its a huge nerf. Either damage should be made back to pierce...Or as ive asked before, make HA5 every 5 agility points (this would need a new stat reset for HAs).


P.S since we dont know that the WPP cap is for archery and damage is so low now, I dont think its worth spending all points in archery unless you have sharp bodkin arrows (pierce +6) and possible a heriloomed bow.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Vexus on January 06, 2011, 05:24:57 pm
I wouldn't use that chest as archer 8 weight (3 more then studded leather coat) for 2 more body armor is not much.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: bruce on January 06, 2011, 05:36:08 pm
And, Cris? You do reasonably well. You can fight from range quite reasonably - and as I said, my palfrey (hard to upkeep anything more expensive unless I want to metagame which is getting taken out in the hotfix anyway) gets killed in three arrows, with more or less no risk for the HA if he spotted me.

You can shoot from the sidelines and then slash like a normal cavalryman when the situation permits, it's called skrimishing. You don't have to expose yourself to risk of getting piked / etc unless you wish to, a lancer for instance has to come close where he's vulnerable as well. If I fight a lancer with my lancer, both of us are in danger. If you fight a lancer as a HA, you comfortably engage outside of his range. Fight a pikeman as a HA? As long as there are no ranged shooting at you, easy. Try it with a lance - can be done sometimes, but is a considerable risk.

I know it's rough because it's your class which got hit the most, but it's also quite balanced - you can engage while being much less vulnerable then melee cav, you have to have worse effectiveness as a result. HAs are supposed to have a hard time at being effective, else we'd all roll one, especially now you can shoot past shields and so on.



Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Cris on January 06, 2011, 05:52:27 pm
but arrows damage is so low now, and firing rate. I still hit a lot, but whether before Id had 10 kill with the same amount of hits, i have 1 or 2 now...

A ha may go hit some3 times, by the 4rth arrow they may run away, and it takes around 5 arrows to kill someone in mid armor, or ligt armor with IF.

Also, compared to crossbow on horses, a crossbow can aim for as long as they want, archers now get tired really fast and have to do the whole animation again (it really should be a 2 animation set).

At lvl 30 if I went all for it, I should be able to have something good, or damage, or accuracy...I didnt go for HA5 build because not even with that I can ensure headshots...kinda kills the point between skill and spamming hopping somethings hits,
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Shogunate_Subotai_III on January 06, 2011, 06:12:03 pm
Thx Cris for explaining, couldnt do it better.

Luv ya mate!
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Ujin on January 06, 2011, 06:19:59 pm
Bruce, stop acting like a smartass and talking about things  you have no clue about. Don't stick your nose in every balance topic just cause your ego is over the top please.

Cris is only doing good now because he is a very good player, he also gets horsebump kills and horsebump+slash kills just like normal cavalry. Same with Subotai, he uses a lance. And no matter how much you can hate him, he WAS one of the good HA. Horse crossbowmen will be the new HA soon.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Murchad on January 06, 2011, 06:23:30 pm
cris,
(1) I completly agree that 2 part anim would be perfect. (has anyone contacted animator to see if he's interested?)

(2) I would say that they need to give HA's one thing back.
Pierce instead of Cut, better accuracy, or reduce HA req agi

I used to get at least 25kills a map prepatch now i am having a hard time keeping 3:1 ratio
and plenty of my kills are from bump/scavenged wep kills

shooting down heavy cav feels like a waste of arrows now. 
you have to do more of a hybred playstyle to get alot of kills.
shoot alot of people wounding mostly then finishing off with scavenged wep/bump or vice versa

Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: bruce on January 06, 2011, 06:29:31 pm
I have a horse crossbowman, and it's about as effective as a postpatch HA. It's also lame as hell vs normal cavalry, and tbh if we see a influx of them they could use a further nerf as well. Ranged cavalry shouldn't be desirable to play because it's a goddamn powerful build like it was pre-patch, regardless of what type of ranged we're talking about.

I cry about your "hard to maintain a 3:1 K/D" horror stories, I really feel for you. Don't you think it should require a lot of effort?

Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Cris on January 06, 2011, 06:41:46 pm
A point to observe about team balance:

I think I read from one of the devp once that KD ratio is taken into account for team balacing. If this is so, something should be changed...Prepatch I had one of the best KD in the game for cRPG battles, but I cannot longer achieve that kind of K/D. So it would be unfair for my team and I to be balanced negatively because am suposed to get an evarage KD i cannot longer get.

I find myself in the lossing team more often than not, maybe that its why.

______

Also, this new patch has open the way for a huge amount of mounted crossbowmen and HA that rather shoot your horse than shoot you (the rider)...It kill the fun of HA duels.

Or maybe they are the same that we had before, but skill shooters cant deal with them fairly because of the reticule and low damage.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Farrok on January 07, 2011, 02:30:38 am
its no point being an horse archer because horse bumping damage is far higher and easier to hit someone with it XD

as i said before: overnerfing.

change to pierce or give bows more cut damage for the foot archers and ha 5 per agi



fighting as an HA isnt fun anymore, and to fight against an HA isnt fun too for both sides...also an Ha shouldnt fire any arrows only when he is the last one on his team because with the bad aim he might be bugs a teammate with his stunning shots

HA vs pikeman or something like that:
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, hit, loose maybe 10% of the hp
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, hit, loose maybe 10% of the hp
HA shoot, dont hit
HA shoot, dont hit
...
pikeman dont have fun because he will be bugged by a little fly(HA) and the HA havent fun because its pointless XD


HA vs HA:
HA 1 shoot, dont hit
HA 2 shoot, dont hit
HA 1 shoot, dont hit
HA 2 shoot, dont hit
HA 1 shoot, dont hit
HA 2 shoot, dont hit
HA 1 shoot, dont hit
HA 2 shoot, dont hit
HA 1 shoot, dont hit
HA 2 shoot, dont hit
...
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Gash on January 07, 2011, 09:03:54 am
I've been playing HA for over 5 months and while yes, the reticle has gotten bigger - the HA class is still very viable.

Murchad, Qilidj, and myself will most likely continue to play as HA because we can still get kills despite the size of the reticle.

I only have HA 3 and got 11 kills (no horsebump kills) on a map today, not including the dozens of horses.  I've also killed riders pretty efficiently.

The class has been nerfed - yes.  But its a lot more challenging now and a lot more fun.

All those players who saw HA as easy-god-mode will likely go to something else. The real HA players, the ones who truly enjoy the playstyle will continue playing it despite the nerf because we are good at it and can continue being a viable class.

I welcome this nerf as it will set apart the good HA from the mediocre.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Loki on January 07, 2011, 09:09:23 am
Seeing as it takes 5 arrows to kill a courser with PD 5 145 wpf and a strong bow with bodkin arrows I doubt you killed "dozens of horses" with your bow.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Gash on January 07, 2011, 09:10:54 am
Quote from: Loki on January 07, 2011, 09:09:23 am
Seeing as it takes 5 arrows to kill a courser with PD 5 145 wpf and a strong bow with bodkin arrows I doubt you killed "dozens of horses" with your bow.

Are you calling me a liar?

Ask the cav on the NA 120 today.  I've killed plenty of horses, and yes, it took multiple arrows (2 or 3 more than it normally takes) - but if it helps my team to kill the cav, so be it.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Lorn on January 07, 2011, 09:11:44 am
Quote from: Loki on January 07, 2011, 09:09:23 am
Seeing as it takes 5 arrows to kill a courser with PD 5 145 wpf and a strong bow with bodkin arrows I doubt you killed "dozens of horses" with your bow.

He has...you would have seen that had you actually been playing.

Go troll elsewhere!
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Loki on January 07, 2011, 09:20:29 am
Quote from: Lorn on January 07, 2011, 09:11:44 am
He has...you would have seen that had you actually been playing.

Go troll elsewhere!

Age   45 [30]
Experience   4666145
Level up at   8735843
Kills   6067
Death   3085
Gold   78750
Generation   2
Attribute Points   0
Skill Points   1
Weapon Proficiency Points   3
Convert 2 Skill Points into 1 Attribute point.   


Strength   15   
Agility   20   


One Handed   80   [3 WPF cost] 
Two Handed   1   [1 WPF cost] 
Polearm   1   [1 WPF cost] 
Archery   142   [9 WPF cost]
Crossbow   1   [1 WPF cost] 
Throwing   1   [1 WPF cost] 

Ironflesh   0   
Power Strike   5   
Shield   3   
Athletics   2   
Riding   6   
Horse Archery   3   
Power Draw   5   
Power Throw   0   
Weapon master *   6   

Don't make this build, it's unplayable.  The only reason I can kill people is because I'm a better player.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Vicious666 on January 07, 2011, 11:55:56 am
funny how       useless player wanna teach top player  what is wrong  and what is correct.


subotai was one of top ha  , bruce sometimes is better not talk for not make a bad figure., if subotai say   ha is gimped, is gimped.    end of story, there is one thing in crpg, the respect ppl earn thx to theyr ability on field, subotai have it , you no
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Murchad on January 07, 2011, 03:38:03 pm
I played more last night and on open maps i was able to do really well.
sure it takes alot more hits to kill someone but I didn't have a problem hitting enemies even at long range.

I am thinking that once I triple loom my bow that I will be even more effective.
I have been playing naked and going horseless on close maps so on those i have bad ratios but overall i am very pleased with the feel of horsearchery now. much more satisfying imo
Loki i agree that your build is very flawed.. at level 30 you need to hit the 24agi 4HA point
HA decreases your damage penalty and increases accuracy.
4HA, less PD and more weapon mastery will really increase your accuracy.

one tip is to slow down slightly just before each shot when you are shooting at long range.

Here's my build this gen... i will do a bit different next time
Age 44 [29]
Experience 3645522
Level up at 4420577
Kills 5168
Death 1537
Gold 147632
Generation 5
Attribute Points 0
Skill Points 1
Weapon Proficiency Points 2
Convert 2 Skill Points into 1 Attribute point.   

Strength 12 
Agility 25 

One Handed 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Two Handed 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Polearm 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Archery 171 [12 WPF cost]
Crossbow 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Throwing 1 [1 WPF cost]   

Ironflesh 0 
Power Strike 0 
Shield 0 
Athletics 0 
Riding 7 
Horse Archery 4 
Power Draw 4 
Power Throw 0 
Weapon master * 8 

Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Boss_Awesome on January 07, 2011, 09:21:31 pm
Quote from: Loki on January 07, 2011, 09:09:23 am
Seeing as it takes 5 arrows to kill a courser with PD 5 145 wpf and a strong bow with bodkin arrows I doubt you killed "dozens of horses" with your bow.

For the record, it was a "Heavy" Courser :)
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Thomek on January 07, 2011, 09:38:32 pm
Quote from: Loki on January 07, 2011, 09:20:29 am
Age   45 [30]
Experience   4666145
Level up at   8735843
Kills   6067
Death   3085
Gold   78750
Generation   2
Attribute Points   0
Skill Points   1
Weapon Proficiency Points   3
Convert 2 Skill Points into 1 Attribute point.   


Strength   15   
Agility   20   


One Handed   80   [3 WPF cost] 
Two Handed   1   [1 WPF cost] 
Polearm   1   [1 WPF cost] 
Archery   142   [9 WPF cost]
Crossbow   1   [1 WPF cost] 
Throwing   1   [1 WPF cost] 

Ironflesh   0   
Power Strike   5   
Shield   3   
Athletics   2   
Riding   6   
Horse Archery   3   
Power Draw   5   
Power Throw   0   
Weapon master *   6   

Don't make this build, it's unplayable.  The only reason I can kill people is because I'm a better player.

Sorry but that build stinks.

If you are HA you can't be jack of all trades. You have points in shield for christ sake.

If I were you I would have less riding, no or very little PS, no shield, perhaps no athletics. Go  make a pure HA and see if its viable..
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Murchad on January 07, 2011, 09:56:47 pm
in Loki's defence he admitted his build stunk.
in the previous patch his similar build was very effective, I think it still could be if he modified it somewhat.
I would reduce ps to 3,  riding to 5, pd to 4,
convert 2 skills to agi, put 3 more str into agi.

this would give you 2 more pts in weapon mastery and 1 more HA
you would also retain your uniqueness and I believe would be more flexible.
you still have the choice of armored and unarmored horses

P.S. hope you can get your build working the way you want.
and i hope you can keep the shield; it makes you unique
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: UrLukur on January 08, 2011, 02:01:50 pm
Quote from: Murchad on January 06, 2011, 06:23:30 pm
(1) I completly agree that 2 part anim would be perfect. (has anyone contacted animator to see if he's interested?)

(2) I would say that they need to give HA's one thing back.
Pierce instead of Cut, better accuracy, or reduce HA req agi

I used to get at least 25kills a map prepatch now i am having a hard time keeping 3:1 ratio
and plenty of my kills are from bump/scavenged wep kills

shooting down heavy cav feels like a waste of arrows now. 
you have to do more of a hybred playstyle to get alot of kills.
shoot alot of people wounding mostly then finishing off with scavenged wep/bump or vice versa

1. Totally agree, archery should be done in 2 stages.

2. No pierce, or make two lines of bows, one with pierce and one with cut damage (but make cut ones better against non-plated). Still, killing with bow should require some effort and multiple hits. Better accuracy, well, pd and armor penalty can be adjusted. 5 AGI per HA sound fair.

Maybe you are not very good player, and you had good k/d ratio just cause you used overpowered class. Most likely.

Armored horses need some treatment. That's for sure.
Thats good, just shooting was not fun for others.
Kill unaware people with melee, cause panic and disorder, work with the team. HA should never be one-man-army. That was one of the most glaring flaw of earlier version.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: bruce on January 08, 2011, 03:41:29 pm
The fact you need to expose yourself to some danger in order to get a lot of kills is really something you can't complain about.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Formless on January 08, 2011, 09:03:06 pm
(click to show/hide)

Murchard, while I have build many type of characters I never done HA before, thanks for the build idea.  What horse do you recommend for HA beginning, intermediate and advanced?
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Nick_Larking on January 08, 2011, 09:06:09 pm
Why 7riding?
A courser only takes 4 and a heavier one takes 5-6, seems a waste of point(s) to me.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Murchad on January 11, 2011, 12:12:02 am
I would recommend switching between sarranid and cataphract horse

yeah 7 is waste, I wanted to see how faster/manouverable it is with extra riding, it's nice but points would be better elsewhere. 5 would be all you need.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: EliteDragon on January 31, 2011, 03:05:51 am
Quote from: Murchad on January 11, 2011, 12:12:02 am
I would recommend switching between sarranid and cataphract horse

yeah 7 is waste, I wanted to see how faster/manouverable it is with extra riding, it's nice but points would be better elsewhere. 5 would be all you need.

Max I would put into Riding would be 5, put 2 of those points into PS and carry a Katana so you stand a chance when your horse dies. Your horse won't live forever.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: kongxinga on January 31, 2011, 05:14:51 am
Reason your horse wont live forever is because you only put 5 ride. That is a bit too slow, and is borderline lance/couch fodder. Speed is life. Go for 30 agil, 5 HA, and split the rest between ride and WM.

Good dedicated cav can have 10 ride, and easily lance your 5 ride horse, so 5 ride is cutting it too close. 7 gives the ability to ride all horses, including stubborn ones.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: EliteDragon on January 31, 2011, 08:03:04 am
Quote from: kongxinga on January 31, 2011, 05:14:51 am
Reason your horse wont live forever is because you only put 5 ride. That is a bit too slow, and is borderline lance/couch fodder. Speed is life. Go for 30 agil, 5 HA, and split the rest between ride and WM.

Good dedicated cav can have 10 ride, and easily lance your 5 ride horse, so 5 ride is cutting it too close. 7 gives the ability to ride all horses, including stubborn ones.

But you don't want to have a high speed; you just have more accuracy penalties. You want maneuverability and either Steppe or Sarranid will get that job done. Maybe your playstyle as a HA is to run away as fast as you can, but I prefer to evade while shooting off the chaser. Also did I mention I like to do CQ combat once in awhile, not shoot from afar? So for me, a couple points into PS benefits me more imho.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: The_Newer_Wind on February 01, 2011, 05:43:01 am
Well, i think if you convert more skill points into attribute points it will help, if you want to be pure HA and not hybrid.
Title: Re: HA - how many agi points?
Post by: Murchad on February 02, 2011, 09:07:34 pm
My new HA has 6 riding and i really think it is important for survival.
There are so many cav riding coursers now that extra riding is all the more important.
5pd and 4HA is perfect for pure HA, for hybred drop down to 12 str so you can do some ps etc