cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tot. on July 02, 2012, 06:06:04 pm

Title: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Tot. on July 02, 2012, 06:06:04 pm
1. Remove turning speed limitations for one-handed weapons, it's been already hard enough to hit with an overhead without it, now it's just asking for death.
2. Remove early active animations for one-handed overhead. It's a joke that in crowded places one-handers in fact have it way harder to actually score a hit than anyone else because overhead gets stuck on the guy behind, right swing is obviously out of the question and left swing glances a lot due to sweetspots and has super short range. Stab is as useless as always and bounces pretty much always at anything but facehug range. In short, two-handers are superior even in group fights in crowded/tight places because of the reliable stab, range, much more forgiving animations and kicking.

PS.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 02, 2012, 06:13:42 pm
In before 8+ath kuyak+gs S key heroes led by GTX get here!

Fear not CAVALRY IS HERE!

1. NO, 1h should not be an exception to the crpg physics
2. Maybe, but 1h seemed pretty balanced to me when I last played it.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Digglez on July 02, 2012, 07:14:35 pm
18 gen 1h here, I have no problems with overhead.  Line your targets up better, no different than kicking, you just get double/triple the range
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Tot. on July 02, 2012, 07:45:05 pm
GL trying to hit with overhead/kick competent agi 2h, you NA have no idea.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Teeth on July 02, 2012, 08:06:07 pm
The turnrate is horrible. My usual tactic of chambering lances and hitting the horse in the arse is completely impossible now.

Because 1h is short, we get penalized a lot more, cause being able to turn 40-60 degrees max during the animation, covers less distance on short range than it does on long range. I would make an explanatory drawing but if you're not retarded you should understand. At the close range at which the 1h overhead is normally used, you can sometimes not even turn as fast as a sidestepping enemy. \

Please make the turnrate restriction less severe for short weapons, because they become quite unusable. Now I have to resort to leftswing spam like the rest of the 1h scrubs.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on July 02, 2012, 08:24:55 pm
1. Remove turning speed limitations for one-handed weapons, it's been already hard enough to hit with an overhead without it, now it's just asking for death.
2. Remove early active animations for one-handed overhead. It's a joke that in crowded places one-handers in fact have it way harder to actually score a hit than anyone else because overhead gets stuck on the guy behind, right swing is obviously out of the question and left swing glances a lot due to sweetspots and has super short range. Stab is as useless as always and bounces pretty much always at anything but facehug range. In short, two-handers are superior even in group fights in crowded/tight places because of the reliable stab, range, much more forgiving animations and kicking.

PS.
(click to show/hide)

No.

Ever tried 2h?

If i fight close to wall my hit can glance the wall without hitting the wall, also yes my overheads might hit guy behind me.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: San on July 02, 2012, 09:29:09 pm
I just want to turn enough so I can hit people properly if I chamber with overheads. I can manage to hit regular overheads now if I hold or feint properly into them if they try to dodge, but chambers usually require you to turn towards your opponents since they may be slightly to your left or right already.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: v/onMega on July 03, 2012, 09:42:02 am
I guess some 15%more turnrate could solve this?

I admit, 1h aint easy :-)
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Everkistus on July 03, 2012, 09:58:54 am
I got to agree with Tot here. I have no problem with left or rightswings on onehanders atm, but the overhead is just horrible. I suck at stabbing with onehanders so I'm using one which doesn't have a stab :P

2. Maybe, but 1h seemed pretty balanced to me when I last played it.
2. Maybe, but 1h seemed pretty balanced to me when I last played it.
when I last played it.
when I last played it.
Which was before the nerf?
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Vibe on July 03, 2012, 10:21:39 am
Isn't the turning speed getting a fix depending on weight/length anyway? Thought that was already known. This should fix 1h stab/overhead problem. As for getting stuck behind when overheading... yeah not nearly as bad as with longer weapons.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 03, 2012, 10:27:20 am
Which was before the nerf?
Which is the reason why there is a "maybe" in the start of the sentence. "The nerf" isn't just for 1h, but all melee as you probably know. Polearm overhead/stab isn't too fun of a move to pull of nowadays either and it used to be effective in the means of target switching etc. I just don't see why 1h should be any different. I guess I have to roll up 1h stf then to know for sure.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Mlekce on July 03, 2012, 10:40:35 am
Add fix for stab too. Usualy my sword pass trough enemy body dealing no dmg or i glance from close range,but spear can stab properly from 1cm distance.
Maybie it is problem in lag,but please tell me if you have same problem.
overhead is is pretty fucked up,i miss targets a lot with overhead. Definitely need a fix.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Everkistus on July 03, 2012, 11:11:16 am
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This describes it pretty well :D
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Molly on July 03, 2012, 11:32:07 am
Overhead/Stab is fine for 1h.
I've seen several 1h player who use it and kill with it. Same goes for me but guess that's not much of an argument to you guys. So the reference to others.
I know 2 well respected players I havent heard complain about it even once while playing: Bjord and Vagabond.

Maybe you should just at least try to adapt to the changes and figure out new tactics and moves.
Longspear got nerfed quite a lot, right? Still I see Chase, Leyla and others perform very well with it. And it may be just skill-related and they adapted to the changes just faster than you. Or they were just willing to adapt instead of whining in the forum for weeks now...  :rolleyes:

And just a hint but cmp already posted several times that there won't be a rollback on the turningspeed changes. And that weight/length influence is a idea considered but not decided on. At least that's the last I've read about it.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Vibe on July 03, 2012, 11:36:52 am
havent heard complain about it even once while playing: Bjord and Vagabond.

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Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Molly on July 03, 2012, 11:54:06 am
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Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Teeth on July 03, 2012, 04:58:01 pm
I know 2 well respected players I havent heard complain about it even once while playing: Bjord and Vagabond.
I fucking hate it and complain about it everyday.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 03, 2012, 08:46:10 pm
I fucking hate it and complain about it everyday.

yea but you're not respected  :twisted:
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: HarunYahya on July 03, 2012, 08:51:59 pm
1. NO, 1h should not be an exception to the crpg physics
Yes , it should .
Attacking with 3meter long pike , attacking with 120cm long greatsword and attacking with a 100cm scimitar are all different things and due to lenght, grip , weight distrubution of those weapons and simple fucking logic , they shouldn't suffer same idiotic nerf.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 03, 2012, 09:02:33 pm
Yes , it should .
Attacking with 3meter long pike , attacking with 120cm long greatsword and attacking with a 100cm scimitar are all different things and due to lenght, grip , weight distrubution of those weapons and simple fucking logic , they shouldn't suffer same idiotic nerf.

Realism ugh... Balancing according to "realism" = no fun fun :(. I'm just sad to see overheads fucked like this. If I read right and cmp is planning on making the turning limit angle different depending on the weapon reach, I would suggest taking the real length considering animation bonuses too. Polearms have a wide grip which makes them relatively easy to move, but you lose some reach in exchange. Otherwise it's all weird again.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Zanze on July 03, 2012, 09:08:47 pm
Idk. I'm using overheads with a 73 reach axe and it seems to be fine...

All you gotta do...is lead your shot BEFORE you release the swing.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Everkistus on July 04, 2012, 01:43:25 pm
I think NA is still running the old version of WSE where polestagger is enabled. This doesn't apply to you guys if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 04, 2012, 02:13:03 pm
Remove turning speed limitation for everything.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Zerran on July 06, 2012, 01:04:49 am
I think NA is still running the old version of WSE where polestagger is enabled. This doesn't apply to you guys if I'm not mistaken.

We have the turning speed nerf, the only difference as far as I am aware is polestagger.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: FiDO on July 06, 2012, 02:52:58 pm
I die all the time from these little 1-H blitzkrieg weapons using overhead.  I'm a 2-H circus mallet wielder.  Perhaps you haven't discovered the OP 1-hander of the moment.  Currently, based entirely on my experience in-game, and absolutely no scientific study of any kind, the list of 1-H weapons that repeatedly beat my ass down as of 7/6/12 is:

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Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: San on July 06, 2012, 05:17:36 pm
Now a mauler is complaining about short 1h, the class it counters most? Now I've seen everything.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Camaris on July 06, 2012, 05:43:58 pm
Actually he is right ;) But thats no problem.
If the 1h does know what to do the mauler never ever will hit him with his overhead.
But that´s also true for every fast and short weapon.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: San on July 06, 2012, 06:30:23 pm
Short 1h is the only class where a mauler can dodge the swing and has room to enclose the gap. Not to mention stun shield. Not saying short 1h is that bad against it, but they should be his easiest target if his character is quick enough, and even easier if the 1h has more things to worry about. Either way, he was probably joking since he mentioned the knife. Great maul can't get 2 overheads in a row(but has high knockdown chance) but mallet certainly can.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 06, 2012, 07:40:32 pm

How about fixing 1h stab, heck, that thing was practically broken before the damn patch, I've got alts for nearly every fighting style, and here is how the patch affects 'em: Polearm Ashwood pike, can still stab, pretty much never glance, no issue. Polearm german poleaxe (ran it for max 3 days, as an STF, currently don't have it, so yeah): Worked fine, no problem. danish greatsword/longsword: Stab is still insanely strong, no real nerf, heck, if I want to I can still jump right infront of a guy and facehug-facestab him, overhead is fine too even though I don't use it much. 1H: Even before the damn patch I've landed perfectlooking hits with my 0+ Espada (the short 30 pierce one) on the back of a fleeing kuyak DGSr, then have it glance and have him 180 turn and oneshot me with a sideswing which I couldn't block due to glancestun. Stabbing is way harder now than it was before, don't use overhead much but never found that big an issue with it before/after the patch.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: rustyspoon on July 06, 2012, 08:19:26 pm
How about fixing 1h stab, heck, that thing was practically broken before the damn patch, I've got alts for nearly every fighting style, and here is how the patch affects 'em: Polearm Ashwood pike, can still stab, pretty much never glance, no issue. Polearm german poleaxe (ran it for max 3 days, as an STF, currently don't have it, so yeah): Worked fine, no problem. danish greatsword/longsword: Stab is still insanely strong, no real nerf, heck, if I want to I can still jump right infront of a guy and facehug-facestab him, overhead is fine too even though I don't use it much. 1H: Even before the damn patch I've landed perfectlooking hits with my 0+ Espada (the short 30 pierce one) on the back of a fleeing kuyak DGSr, then have it glance and have him 180 turn and oneshot me with a sideswing which I couldn't block due to glancestun. Stabbing is way harder now than it was before, don't use overhead much but never found that big an issue with it before/after the patch.

Honestly I find that stabs work pretty well now. Since they changed when the stab becomes active it's pretty easy to reliably stab someone. The only real problem is you have to be a better judge of their position along with your timing. Once you get used to it you can land stabs all day long.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Teeth on July 06, 2012, 11:15:31 pm
I die all the time from these little 1-H blitzkrieg weapons using overhead.  I'm a 2-H circus mallet wielder.
Then these onehanders you speak of are braver than I am. Against a mauler I would never dare to use the overhead, which is dodgy at best. If you have decent movement speed you can actually sidestep faster than I can turn at close range.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 07, 2012, 12:43:51 am
is one hander really going to stay this way? this is ridiculous, having 2h more efficient in close range then 1h and 1h having only left and right swings decent.

 having less and less fun playing this game...
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Konrax on July 08, 2012, 07:47:18 pm
The 1h overhand has always been tough to use because it's as if someone how got hit in the head a few too many times does the swing.

That and 1h weapons get stuck on everything.

Now I do pretty well usually, but I have 3x italian, 3x iberian, 3x knightly heater, 3x churburg, and 3x plate mittens so...

But I agree with the poster
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: _GTX_ on July 08, 2012, 08:47:03 pm
1. Remove turning speed limitations for one-handed weapons, it's been already hard enough to hit with an overhead without it, now it's just asking for death.
2. Remove early active animations for one-handed overhead. It's a joke that in crowded places one-handers in fact have it way harder to actually score a hit than anyone else because overhead gets stuck on the guy behind, right swing is obviously out of the question and left swing glances a lot due to sweetspots and has super short range. Stab is as useless as always and bounces pretty much always at anything but facehug range. In short, two-handers are superior even in group fights in crowded/tight places because of the reliable stab, range, much more forgiving animations and kicking.

Tot, we should do some testing regarding glances/bounces. I dont agree with u, but instead of argueing, we should test it. Are u up for it?

And every class gets stuck on the people behind them with overhead, specialy the longer weapons.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Konrax on July 10, 2012, 06:49:28 pm
Since you can't take the turn speed reduction off any specific weapon maybe it would be a better idea to upgrade the animations of attacks instead.

Maybe make them slightly faster, or increase the reach.

Only thing is the danger here of making 2h and polearm already more angry for making 1h better. It's tough to say how bad the reduction really hurt 1h, general consensus says polearms and 1h took it the worst but its primary reason was to bring polearms in line.

So it comes down to a judgement call on the devs, I personally could live with it not being modified, but it would be good to see something done to help make it a more viable attack direction.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Turboflex on July 10, 2012, 10:46:03 pm
Overhead was already a mediocre swing for 1h, did anyone seriously think it was overpowered? nerfing it is really questionable. It has become very risky to us it against any target moving laterally since there's a good chance between initiation and contact he'll be outside the turn limit which is now like 30 degrees.

Just makes playing 1h less fun since it takes away our attack variety and forces us to lean more on left swings.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Spook Island on July 11, 2012, 12:45:45 am
is one hander really going to stay this way? this is ridiculous, having 2h more efficient in close range then 1h and 1h having only left and right swings decent.

 having less and less fun playing this game...


"We don't balance based on realism or whiners." - cmpxchg8b
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,35623.msg540487.html#msg540487

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that the balance staff is totally inept and probably run by a bunch of amateurs who are terrified of getting the balance anywhere near finished or they'd be out of a job.
Title: Re: Fix one-handed overhead
Post by: Kafein on July 11, 2012, 12:21:10 pm
And every class gets stuck on the people behind them with overhead, specialy the longer weapons.

Yeah but that happening to 1h is braindamaged :P

Also, 1h thrusts hit teammates on your left too easily (a bit like the shorter polearms).