cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Angellore on July 01, 2012, 02:46:31 pm

Title: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Angellore on July 01, 2012, 02:46:31 pm
Note: This text is very long, if you don’t want to read it, just don’t do that. But please stay away from this topic then, don’t post here, don’t troll here. I wrote this only for people who are interested in subject, if you are not, then just stay away.
English isn’t my native language, I know it from school only, but last English classes I had many years ago, so sorry in advance for any language mistakes.

Many people wrote a lot of things about cav recently. Unfortunately, most of their claims are lies. You can read opinions how easy mode lancer cav is, how good every newbie is as cav and how hard infantry life is with horseman around. Most of those people are of course cav experts, because “they played lancer for 5 minutes with their alts and they made 20:0 K/D ratio at lvl 10 with 0 PS, thanks to couching”. So I decided to write my feelings, how it is to be lancer cav, because with all those lies on forum, it’s really easy to get confused for people who never played this class longer than few days.

I’ll start from myself. I played almost every class in cRPG. I played a lot as archer, then few months as crossbowman, few months as infantry (many 2h swords, german poleaxe, great long axe, long war axe), another 2 months as mauler, I also checked thrower and 1h cav. I’m playing lancer cav for about 3 months here in cRPG. I also played as lancer in WFAS mod quite often, but there lances are 3.2 meters long (same as longest pikes), so you can’t really compare those 2 gameplays (in cRPG longest playable lance has 1.9 m). Yes, there are longer non-trustable lances here in cRPG, but they are basically useless for pure lancer.
I’m using heavy gear (Coat of Plates +3, Plate Mittens +3, Plate Boots +3, Sallet with Visor and Coif +3), so I’m very well protected (63 head armor, 68 body armor, 64 leg armor). My current horse is Destrier +3. As main weapon I’m using Heavy Lance +3, as secondary weapon (on the ground) Long War Axe +3. My max upkeep is 5644 gold, which is a lot, I’m losing about 10-20k gold for every hour of playing (but all depends here from my multi and luck). Even with x5 multi I don’t gain any money, so this class is costly, at least with heavy gear I’m using. You can ask why I’m using such a heavy gear. The answer is simple – I don’t want to be 1 hit-killed from ranged. With Light Kuyak +3 (which I used before), arbalester could kill me from just 1 bolt, thanks to speed of riding. And that’s something most people forgets. Many people who tests how hard is to kill a horse/rider forgets about speed factor. Horses aren’t stationary targets, you shouldn’t test anything this way!

From my experience, Destrier +3 charging target at full speed, close range, dies from:
- 1-2 bolts into head (1 bolt takes about 85-100% of its hp) – Arbalest +3, Steel Bolts +3
- 2-3 bolts into body (3 most of the time, but 2 bolts won’t leave much hp of the horse) – Arbalest +3, Steel Bolts +3
- 2-3 arrows into head (2 most of the time) – Long Bow/Rus Bow +3, Bodkin Arrows +3
- 4-5 arrows into body – Long Bow/Rus Bow +3, Bodkin Arrows +3
Destrier is average armored horse with quite a lot of HP. I played with Courser +3 and Arabian Warhorse +3 earlier, but it was much easier to kill them for enemy. Even from greater distance, just one bolt to their head, sometimes even one arrow was enough. That’s why I don’t play them anymore, it’s too easy to lose those horses. And if you lose your horse, most of the time you are dead, because very often you ends up alone near big group of enemies.

In cRPG lancer isn’t, like many people thinks, tanker who fears nothing except pikes. It’s not even close to that. Lancer is more like backstabbing class. You can kill unaware enemies from behind, and that’s where you are making most of your kills. About 75% of my kills are done this way. Another 25% are aware peasants, other horseman, aware ranged, and then aware infantry. Because of riding speed, cavalry takes down easiest targets after battle starts, that’s how you can make a lot of kills and make good K/D ratio (my current K/D ratio is 3.5:1, but this is reskilled char, so I didn’t have to level it). When you meet peasant on your way, you can even bump him to death. Some people says it’s lame to do that, but I saw many times few fully armored infantry chasing down peasant for few hundred meters and when they finally caught him, they starts to spam swings, often wounding themselves just to kill that peasant - somehow, this is completely fine in infantry minds. For me kill is kill. If I have a choice to couch unaware peasant or other unaware target, I’ll always choose the other target. But I don’t see a reason to abandon easy to kill targets (peasants) and leave them for others.
Like I said before, cav are backstabbers in cRPG. It’s not because cav is lazy, they are forced to do that because of how cRPG works. In fact lancer is weak class, which has low chances to kill aware opponent. That’s why hunting down unaware targets, which are close to no threat for you, perfectly makes sense here. Because of horse speed, we can choose our next target, leave harder ones and attack easiest. The “problem” is, when we kill easiest targets (make plenty of kills that way), infantry see cav topping scoreboard and starts to cry how OP cav is. You really shouldn’t judge class strength this way. If cav kills almost all peasants every round, it gives them few kills more in stats, and same time takes those easy kills from others.

Many people will ask then, how easy is to kill aware opponent for lancer? Well, it’s in fact very, very hard thing to do if the target won’t make any mistakes. There are 2 tricks which can help you to kill aware targets:
Trick1: you can force ready to strike opponent to release left mouse button too early/too late by controlling your horse speed, Arabian Warhorse is far best horse to use this trick. Other horses I tried feels a bit too “heavy” to benefit from this trick.
Trick2: you can try to hit enemy at max possible lance angle, turning just in front of him, but this is very risky (you need to be millimeter precise) and it works mainly with standing targets (or moving forward, but it’s harder to get it right even then). If you miss your target this way because you turned too fast and have now too little lance angle (very, very often it ends up like that), enemy will most of the time hit your horse to the side/back, but you can ride away. If you turn too late, then enemy will hit your horse’s head and stop it (or deal huge damage to it). Then you are basically screwed, so it’s always better to turn a bit quicker and miss than too late and die. This trick needs perfect timing and even then don’t guarantee success.

Killing peasant: you need to watch peasant weapon here. If he uses Pitchfork or Scythe, he can still wound/kill your horse easily, no matter he is a peasant! But even if he uses one of those weapons, you can try using Trick2 here. If you turn too late and he stops your horse, you can still kill him with your lance. Peasant is a target always worth a risk (you won’t find aware opponent which is easier to kill than a peasant). If peasant uses some 1h weapon, I’m charging it straight away with regular lance attack ready. But you can kill peasant even with 1-2 bumps, you don’t really need to lance him.
My advice: Charge!

Killing horse lancer: I can say obvious thing here. It’s risky! In my opinion too risky to do it after game starts. Hits are based by what server sees, not what you sees, so because of closing horses speed, sometimes I see I did everything perfectly, but server says that enemy just killed me, which is a bit depressing. I can still kill more lancers than I dies this way, but even with 60:40 ratio, it’s just too risky for me. So I’m trying to avoid other lancers, especially at the beginning of the round. I have plenty easier targets on the ground to take care of in this time.
My advice: Avoid if you can!

Killing 1h horseman: you need to use couch here and take down their horses. If they are aware of you and manage to stop your horse, there is nothing you can do. In close combat you are sitting duck for them! You can block their swings, but they will still hit your horse and eventually kill it through your blocks. They can sometimes kill your horse from just one Arabian Cavalry Sword’s swing to your horse’s head. Because of their shields forcefield, you can’t kill them from frontal attack or from the side. Sometimes those shields can even protect them from a lance into their back, which is a just silly. It’s better to avoid them if they are aware of you, if not, use couch and try to hit horse from side. In worst case scenario you will destroy their shield, but should be able to run away. Regular lance attack will most likely end up at their shield, making them no harm at all. Fortunately there are not that many good 1h cav (at least on EU servers). You can try to attack aware 1h cav which uses low turning speed horses, but avoid Arabian Warhorses! They turns too quickly, you won’t be able to ride away before they hit you back.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing pikeman/long spearman: basically impossible. I managed to kill few of them only because they didn’t release left mouse button in time. This is the only way to kill them, their own, huge mistake. Surprisingly, they don’t do much damage to horses most of the time. You can sometimes lose just 1/3rd of your horse hp by being stopped by pikeman, and then just ride away (many depends here from yours and pikeman position). You have to avoid them of course, especially if they have some regular infantry near them – pikeman will stop your horse, and regular infantry will finish you quickly.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing short spear/lancer on the ground: very hard to do. It’s possible, but target need to release left mouse button too soon (and bounce or miss) or too late. You can use here Trick1 and Trick2, but it’s very risky stuff which will almost always end up with your death, especially if enemy jump while making attack. It’s just no sense to risk if the guy isn’t last man standing.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing 2h swordsman: it’s very similar to killing short spear/lancer on the ground, very hard to do. But in fact, two handed swords are even more deadly (because of damage they deal and their thrust range). If 2h swordsman is standing still or moving forward, you can try to use Trick2, but most of them jumps/move sideways. Then I assure you, almost always you won’t be able to react/predict things right and you will easily die. So, it’s possible to kill 2h swordsman (at least stationary ones), but there is little chance to do everything exactly right, and you still need a lot of luck – better avoid them as much as you can. I can’t really understand how 2h swordsman can be more deadly to horses than even pikeman.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing poleaxe user: surprisingly (or maybe not?), it’s easier to kill poleaxe user who tries to stab than 2h swordsman. Their weapons has shorter stabs, so you can use Trick2 with a bit higher success rate (you can be slightly less precise with timing and still win). Unfortunately, they can also jump to the side and attack opposite direction same time, and because of weapon length and it’s damage, this attack can be deadly. Similar as with 2h swordsman, if poleaxe player jump, you probably won’t be able to react/predict things right and you will die. That’s why it’s very risky and not worth trying to kill poleaxe user if you have other (easier or unaware) targets alive.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing axe user/mauler (no thrust weapon user): it’s risky, as he can jump to side and make opposite swing same time, but you can use your horse as weapon and increase your chances. If you guess right the side of his jump, you can kill him, if you was close to guess you will most likely bump him. If you won’t bump or hit him, you are most likely dead (those weapons are deadly with 47-48 damage and speed bonus from your horse). It’s so much easier here to kill heavy armored targets (like maulers). I often risk couch when I see heavy armor + non thrusting weapon. If target has light armor, it’s better to leave it. Especially couching light armored target will almost always be deadly for rider, even if his weapon don’t have thrust attack.
My advice: Charge only heavily armored ones!

Killing 1h shielder: very similar to killing non thrustable weapon user, but it has a bit less risk involved (shorter weapons than axes). You need to get ready for your target jump to the side and make attack from opposite direction (they do that most of the time). And again you have to choose side right. If you won’t guess right, you can die here. He can also use thrust, so it’s better not to charge him directly with your horse. If you charge in right way, shielder most of the time won’t be able to thrust your horse’s head. It’s easier for shielder to kill you by jump/sidewalk and make swing same time, that’s the thing you need to be aware of. If they just jump and block with their shields, I’m often trying to couch them and break their shield in next attack. But because of jumping height and sidewalking speed, couching is always much more risky to try, even against shielder.
My advice: Charge mainly heavily armored ones!

Killing crossbowman: if crossbowman is aware of you, it’s better to just leave him alone. If you decide to charge him, you need to wave your horse a bit and try to force his mistake. If he miss you, you will most likely kill him. If he hit your horse’s head, horse will probably die (if not, you will probably kill crossbowman), if he hit you, your attack will be cancelled, and you will lose most of your hp (or if you use light armor, you will be dead, because of speed of the horse). It’s risky stuff, more time you give for crossbowman to aim you, more likely you will lose this little battle. If I want to attack some crossbowman, I’m always waiting for him to shoot other target, then I can charge during his reloading time. They most of the time will spot me then (they are checking terrain while reloading), so they will try to change weapon to melee – that’s why it’s worth to try couched attack here. Even if they change weapon, you can still kill them through their block (if you only guess their jumping side right). Everything depends here from distance and moment when crossbowman spot you.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing archer: it’s sometimes easier than killing crossbowman. Archer has advantage in rate of fire, but he won’t be able to kill your horse with just 1 arrow, and can’t hold his bow ready to shot forever. You need to be ready to take at least 2 arrows into yourself/your horse (hopefully not your or your horse’s head). That means, it’s no sense to attack archer if you, or especially your horse has low hp. With latest horses maneuver nerf, you won’t be able to do much in close combat with archer (archer moves faster than your horse turns at the moment). Maybe Arabian Warhorse would still be good enough in this kind of fight, I don’t know, I sold my Arabian Warhorse +3 long time ago. I only know, Destrier is now too slow in turning speed to kill experienced archer this way (you could do that easily before horses turning nerf). The problem is, because of instantly changing direction of running, sidewalking, jumping (every problem cRPG physics has), archers will most likely just jump to the side to avoid your horse and start shooting at it again. I’m quite good in guessing their jump direction (I’m lucky I should say), so many targets I kill are archers. But for every attack on aware archer, you have to pay with some of your and your horse’s hp. It’s always costly to attack archers.
My advice: Avoid those with Long Bows/Rus Bows! Charge the other!

Killing throwers: aware high PT thrower means death for you and your horse. High PT thrower can kill your horse very easily, from just 1 head hit. And when they throw their axe/javelin/lance, another one magically appears in their hand to repeat the attack straight away. It’s just suicide to attack them, avoid even if they look in opposite direction! You can however attack low PT throwers, they aren’t much of a threat. After some time of playing, I can recognize players (by their armors), so more or less I know which throwers I have to avoid like a fire (I learned it hard way). Fortunately, there aren’t many high PT throwers in game currently.
My advice: Avoid high PT throwers! Charge low PT throwers!

Killing horse archers/horse crossbowmans: terrible! I can’t understand why horse archers has same maneuver as other horsemans (they should have decreased maneuver drastically, especially when they are shooting and riding same time). Because of that you will most likely end up with your horse full of arrows. Maybe they don’t do much damage, but they can still kill your horse with 6-8 arrows (or 3-4 into your horse’s head), and you won’t be able to do anything to avoid them. It’s worst thing to have horse archer on your back and no possible help from your team. You can kill horse archer only when he uses horse +0 (has maneuver and speed disadvantage) or if he make mistake and judge things wrong. But before he do that, your horse will have no hp anyway. It’s better to avoid aware horse archers as much as you can. Horse crossbowmans are easier targets (mainly due to reloading time), but it’s still better not to attack aware ones, especially if they use Arabian Warhorses +3 or Coursers +3. They can ride away pretty easily, and you don’t really want to play chasing game with them, since they can hit you from range and not slow down even a bit.
My advice: Avoid!

It will be even harder to kill anyone, who stands on little hill or terrain around him isn’t completely flat. You will have big problem to predict speed of your horse, and since you have to release Heavy Lance sooner (Heavy Lance attack speed is very slow), you can completely miss the enemy. It’s better to avoid aware enemies standing on changeable terrain.

So, it’s not that easy to kill aware opponent. In fact you have more chances than the enemy only while killing aware peasants and low athletics, heavily armored shielders. With axemans and great maulers (only slow ones, with heavy armor) chances are pretty even, maybe just slightly higher for horseman. That’s why you will end up most of the time backstabbing unaware opponents. If infantry want to get rid of backstabbing, then make horses actually smash every infantry easily (except pikemans). But right now backstabbing is only option to get kills, and no matter what you think, backstabbing is funny. I’m all the time trying to plan my attacks carefully, sometimes it don’t go well, but most of the time I can kill 1-2 people from behind and disappears quickly. It makes me happy and I don’t really understand infantry whining and offending cav players all the time about that. Just think about every infantry who kills someone from behind / from side / in group (by being unfair). Those things happens all the time in cRPG, infantry do this all day long, it’s a battle after all, not duel. So how can cav backstabbing be different than infantry ones? Cav is forced to play like that much more often, choosing weakest targets, attacking from behind. I know couch from behind is annoying, but you can use tilde key (~) to prevent that, it’s so amazing key – maybe you should just use it more often? Or maybe don’t, because then lancer will be able to kill only peasants (pretty easily only those without pitchfork and scythe in their hands).

Cav is also a class which is very dependent from map itself. Many maps are almost completely unplayable for cav (towns with little corridors). Huge, open space maps aren’t best for cav either (it’s hard to do backstabbing job there, you are clearly visible for everyone from huge distance). Big hills makes cav useless, houses where ranged can go at are deadly for cav. It’s the only class which is affected by terrain that much, it’s just huge disadvantage for cav. Even little, but steep hill will cause horse to almost completely stop on it.

And you can’t forget horse is such a huge target for ranged. You can predict horse path pretty well, since horses can’t change movement direction like infantry (sidewalking and changing direction of movement in the blink of an eye to avoid ranged is normal thing for infantry, horses can’t do this).

Lance damage was nerfed so many times, right now at full speed of Destrier +3, regular Heavy Lance attack sometimes don’t kill even low armored archer by 1 hit. Couching is the best way to kill your target (9/10 couches kills enemy instantly), but same time it’s much more risky than regular attack. Even unaware opponent can move slightly just before your attack and you can miss him with couch, you need to be so precise with your horse positioning while couching. Killing aware opponent with couch often means suicide. Couching attack has much shorter length than regular one, so enemy will most likely outreach you easily. But sometimes it’s the only way to kill your enemy, since regular attack can be blocked with simple holding downblock. No matter what speed you riding at and what part of enemy you aim (head, body, legs), your regular attack can always be very easily blocked or easily chambered.

What could be better in my opinion?
For me, the most annoying and unpredictable thing is jumping. Jumping and attacking same time makes no sense, it has no logic at all. Players can jump 1 meter up and about 1.5 meters to one side in any moment they want, and still same time they make attack with its full power. Like side walking wasn’t already broken, they can jump like a monkeys in cRPG too. It’s just completely broken mechanism. You should be able to jump only about 20 cm up and about 50 cm to the side unarmored, of course no jumping at all with heavy armor. When you jump, you shouldn’t be able to make attack same time. Then seeing jumping people won’t make you feel like we are playing some space monkeys multi-tasking game.

Pikes should be much more deadly to horses in cRPG. Pikemans aren’t much of a threat in terms of damage they deal to horses, they only have range. If pike stop your horse riding straight into it at full speed, it should kill the horse instantly. Right now pikes are more effective killing people on the ground than horses. I see no logic in that, pikes should do very heavy damage to horses, it should be the best anti-horses weapon. Right now even if I make a mistake and pikeman stop my horse, I’ll just turn a little and move the other direction with half horse’s hp left (sometimes even more, depending from horse speed). At the moment it’s so much better to be stopped by pikeman than poleaxer or especially hit by 2h swordsman (this one is deadly). I would love to see pikemans as proper horse killers, and regular infantry as easy targets for cav.
But I’m sure, infantry would whine then even more. I don’t really understand why they cry now. Most of them have huge advantage fighting lancer already, they just need to be aware of him. It’s not true without pikes they can’t do anything against cav. Pikes are good weapons only to stop horses. Many other weapons are much better to actually kill horses and/or their riders.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 02:50:31 pm
I'm uber noob when it comes to ground melee and not that good either as archer for that matter only.

When i'll go lancer cav it's much easier to rack up kills. Especially if you got Arab or Desert horse.

SO a noob like me can rack up kills easy with lance cav. Speak volumes really.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2012, 02:51:49 pm
Quote from: Angellore on July 01, 2012, 02:46:31 pm
(click to show/hide)

tl;dr version? :(
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Riddaren on July 01, 2012, 03:01:13 pm
Good post.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: polkafranzi on July 01, 2012, 03:11:44 pm
Quote from: CountBerenger on July 01, 2012, 02:50:31 pm
I'm uber noob when it comes to ground melee and not that good either as archer for that matter only.

When i'll go lancer cav it's much easier to rack up kills. Especially if you got Arab or Desert horse.

SO a noob like me can rack up kills easy with lance cav. Speak volumes really.

You suck at lancer cav too, maybe getting a few unaware peasant kills but that's it  :wink:
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 03:18:58 pm
I don't believe anyone is going to read that completely and attentively.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: SixThumbs on July 01, 2012, 03:34:25 pm
Because I had some time to kill before work I did. Basically what he said described what everyone who's played cav in the most effective manner knows.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 01, 2012, 03:42:17 pm
good read, pretty spot on
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Piok on July 01, 2012, 03:56:39 pm
He is using destirer so to say other light hoses will day half as easy.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on July 01, 2012, 04:10:19 pm
Lancer is an easy class, but it costs more, alot more, and is also very frustrating at times. It balances out imo.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Tiberias on July 01, 2012, 04:11:41 pm
Ok, i read the whole thing and indeed, its quite a good guide for Lancers. So why not moving this topic into the Beginners Help and Guides ?
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Moncho on July 01, 2012, 04:11:50 pm
Pretty true, felt like that when i tried cav...
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Mlekce on July 01, 2012, 04:15:54 pm
someone actualy read first post? O.o
Lance cav is easy,you don't realy need to fight cav,just avoid enemy cav and HA,go and steal kills from infrantery,and couch peasants and archers. Have 50:0 k:d score.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 01, 2012, 04:31:47 pm
Quote from: Mlekce on July 01, 2012, 04:15:54 pm
someone actualy read first post? O.o
Lance cav is easy,you don't realy need to fight cav,just avoid enemy cav and HA,go and steal kills from infrantery,and couch peasants and archers. Have 50:0 k:d score.

yeah can you believe that! you have problems with reading or something ? just curious
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 01, 2012, 04:34:19 pm
Don't forget about how you really win rounds and roll a perma 5 x as a singular good cavalry player.

A pikeman or longspear man is considered pretty much the best support class in the game, making any small melee situation in the favor of whoever has the better pikes.  Now imagine that level of support, with 5 times the speed, double the hp, at least triple the damage, and if you miss your pike thrust you have knockdown stronger then a blunt maul's proc, with 100 percent chance of occurring, with a massive area of effect.

Yep that is how you play "support" cav, with good timing, catching blobs/enemies unaware, and quickly deducing if any aware polearms are blocking your entrance or exit, you can guarantee at least 5 or more kills a minute for your teammates by distracting, bumping, lancing, damaging, just by holding W and roaming around the map. 

Everything you said is true about the use of the lance in lining up kills (except couching people is a lot easier than you describe, with lots of time to compensate by lolspinning it around) but the horse itself has way more utility and can really grief the shit out of an enemy team, being so agile, high acceleration, shield forcefields, high bump damage + the long knockdown effect  You can completely collapse a flank of lets say a 20 vs 20 engagement with 1 cavalry player with good battle awareness, ensuring dozens of free hits for your teammates with pro bumps/distracting archers/kiting pikes/etc etc.  Just so much "power projection" rolled up into that class, it becomes silly.  Lance damage is stupid high too regardless, you don't even need powerstrike, or at most 2-3, and black bar medium infantry with good speed bonus and aiming for the head and whatnot. 
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 04:55:45 pm
Quote from: polkafranzi on July 01, 2012, 03:11:44 pm
You suck at lancer cav too, maybe getting a few unaware peasant kills but that's it  :wink:

Nah! I get GK noobs and i raped Oberyn countless of times and others as well. It depends on how much i derp or not.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Oberyn on July 01, 2012, 05:53:37 pm
^ delusional
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 01, 2012, 06:05:16 pm
^ At this point I think everyone has raped everyone in this mod :mrgreen:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 06:54:44 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on July 01, 2012, 05:53:37 pm
^ delusional

Not! You just mad cuz i killed you more times than you got me.

Quote from: Son Of Odin on July 01, 2012, 06:05:16 pm
^ At this point I think everyone has raped everyone in this mod :mrgreen:
(click to show/hide)

Screen or fake.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 07:19:10 pm
I agree that polearms should really, really hurt horses, and I think cav lances should really, really hurt players.  But I would like to see more hybrids.  A polearm user should be able to kill a horse then switch weapons to take on the rider, and the rider should switch weapons too to fight the infantry (or other cav if they're riding side by side).

As infantry I have no problem when lancer cav one hit kills me when I don't see them.  2 handers do that to me all the time too.  You just gotta be aware, which is not easy when you're fighting some other melee-ers.  It's as irritating as hell when you're backing up trying to get from in between the two enemy inf and suddenly you hear the hooves and 'bang', you're dead.  Mind you its mighty gratifying when you're fighting two enemy inf and you see your cav running up and 'bang', kills one of the enemy and knocks the other over.

Great post, I've never thought cav was OP, just that peasants are UP, and that when people are smart and work together enemy cav isn't much of a threat at all.  But how many times do people work together?
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 01, 2012, 07:43:19 pm
am i in your list of throwers to avoid?  :twisted:
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Vkvkvk on July 01, 2012, 08:23:25 pm
Quote from: Blueberry Muffin on July 01, 2012, 04:10:19 pm
Lancer is an easy class, but it costs more, alot more, and is also very frustrating at times. It balances out imo.

Because upkeep totally matters past the first week of playing right? Implying playing Melee isn't frustrating sometimes either.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: ThePoopy on July 01, 2012, 09:06:00 pm
cav sucks, the problem is same as with ranged, they can't won't kill eachother untill they really have to cus it's to big risk.
this leads to both rapin infantry every round and that's why everybody hates you guys :P

- increase lance radius so good cav can kill bad cav without risk
- increase lance speed (or just decrease sweetspot somehow) it's way to easy to hit targets with this 1 sec long attack (this goes for all wepons tho)
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Mlekce on July 01, 2012, 09:15:13 pm
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on July 01, 2012, 04:31:47 pm
yeah can you believe that! you have problems with reading or something ? just curious
i dont need to read anything. I know you biching like ur class is so hard and shit,but lance cav is easiest class in game right after piker.
You whole clan sux at fighting on ground and blocking so you all made clan of cav,and horse archers.
I was lancer for 3 generations and it is easiest class to get kills.
Get champion arabian warhorse,and mw lance and own everyone.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Adamar on July 01, 2012, 09:22:42 pm
Quote from: ThePoopy on July 01, 2012, 09:06:00 pm
cav sucks, the problem is same as with ranged, they can't won't kill eachother untill they really have to cus it's to big risk.
this leads to both rapin infantry every round and that's why everybody hates you guys :P

- increase lance radius so good cav can kill bad cav without risk
- increase lance speed (or just decrease sweetspot somehow) it's way to easy to hit targets with this 1 sec long attack (this goes for all wepons tho)

 The problem is infs are kids who play for fun rather than victory, and then complain here about th other classes. We'll kill each other so long as you infs play smart and hold, untill the cavs are down.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: obitus on July 01, 2012, 09:30:46 pm
Quote from: Angellore on July 01, 2012, 02:46:31 pm

In fact lancer is weak class, which has low chances to kill aware opponent. That’s why hunting down unaware targets, which are close to no threat for you, perfectly makes sense here. Because of horse speed, we can choose our next target, leave harder ones and attack easiest. The “problem” is, when we kill easiest targets (make plenty of kills that way), infantry see cav topping scoreboard and starts to cry how OP cav is. You really shouldn’t judge class strength this way. If cav kills almost all peasants every round, it gives them few kills more in stats, and same time takes those easy kills from others.


Seriously, we need something better than just "kills" statistics to determine who is helping their team the most.

Killing the enemy team's all-star best player gives the same statistical reward as stabbing an afk torch-wielding nake.

The best system would display MANY more stats!  Damage dealt, kills, dehorsings.  A combination thereof (arbitrary points) would be best for ranking, and as a kicker it should be weighted to reward more points for dealing damage/killing/dehorsing higher value targets.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 01, 2012, 10:13:58 pm
I see where OP's coming from. Cav needs a nerf!

Should probably make the riders take 50% fall damage every time they dismount. Insta-kill when they're dehorsed, of mother fucking course. Also, it'd be nice to see all polearms do an extra 5 fire damage when hitting horses, with an addition 3 fire damage taken every 2 seconds as the horse rides away until both horse and rider are engulfed in flame. And, if the horse doesn't die in 10 seconds, then the rider's team automatically loses the round.

This would force cav to dismount and hack down their burning horses. Pretty good idea imo.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
After having reading your post, i feel like being a lancer is very difficult, you risk your life against every class but peasants, you can be one shot by mw arbalest + mw bolts if you don't wear heavy armor, your horse can die after having being shot only 4-5 times into body by bows +3 and arrows +3, and 2-3 times by arbalest (full loomed aswell), and so on ...
That's how you sum up a "lancer life", only "downsides" (that you exaggerate a lot imo).

Your resume is just biaised since you didn't speak about advantages lancers have towards infantry.

- You can 1 shot almost everything with couching. And no couching is not as risky as you describe it, why? As a 1 hander, my only option against lancers is to sidewalk on the right and do a left swing. How to counter that as a couchwhore lancer? Go a bit on your left before the impact. Many cav do that everytime, so it's impossible to kill them for a 1h. And please don't say me that i just have to sidewalk on the other side, even if i do it while the lancer is going on the left, his lance would hit my right arm.

- You 1 or 2 shot everything at high speed (i've 6 if, +3 katafraktoi armor, 57 head armor, and i often get one shot by lancers).

- Even after having losing your horse, you can fight in melee with decent weapons and no lack of wpf (unlike archers and crossbowmen who can only fight with shit weap but mace and have rarely more than 80 wpf in 2h)

- Again about fighting a shielder, you can bump/lance them easily, something you forgot to mention.

- You compared inf (who backstab and gang alot in your opinion) with cav who are actually doing the same. Fallacious argument again, how dare you putting cav and infantry on the same line when you know that cav can come from every sides and that you can hardly see them coming  when you're fighting due to their speed.

- You are complaining because your horse can "only" handle 4 or 5 shot into body by full loomed archer's gears? Why didn't you give us stats with non loomed archer/crossbowmen gears instead? It would be much more relevant since the majority of ranged do not have full loomed weapons ;) bad faith again, at least try to be more objective next time you write such a long text.

- You take a lot of risks each time you try to kill someone who's not a peasant? Isn't that the case for every class? If you wanted to do a comparison between inf and cav, it would have been more relevant to do it here. Is it more difficult to kill a 1h (for exemple) as a lancer or as a poleaxe-user? Here is a good comparison ;)

There is certainly more to say, but i think it's already enough.
Oh, and i don't think moving this topic into the Beginners Help and Guides is a good idea. He's explaining how to get kills as a lancer, not how to be usefull as a lancer, if newbies followed such advices, they would just attack peasants and avoid everything else. In other words, they would be merely useless.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 12:59:59 am
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on July 01, 2012, 03:42:17 pm
good read, pretty spot on

Two-handed swordmen part isn't true and you know it. How many times you and Kerrigan killed aware twohander? I see you killing them all the time.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Trikipum on July 02, 2012, 01:59:36 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 12:59:59 am
Two-handed swordmen part isn't true and you know it. How many times you and Kerrigan killed aware twohander? I see you killing them all the time.
leshma, you know that what he says is true. Take 2 similar skilled players. One with 2h and 1 with horse and lance. You know, as any other experience player knows, that the ground 2h player will have an edge over the riding guy and probably will win most of the duels. I just dont get why you guys bitch so much about horses. Only a bunch of riders are good enough in the whole game to fight an aware 2h player, specially hard if that guy has a 120+ weapon. And this doesnt mean the rider will win always, no, just that he will kill the ground player "sometimes". So what is the point here?. I just dont get it. Even with my 103 1h sword i kill plenty of riders, both lancers and 1hs when im on foot.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on July 02, 2012, 02:08:11 am
Wall of text from a man with 8 renown! HA!

Sit down peasant!
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Kerrigan on July 02, 2012, 02:47:26 am
Quote from: Mlekce on July 01, 2012, 09:15:13 pm
i dont need to read anything. I know you biching like ur class is so hard and shit,but lance cav is easiest class in game right after piker.
You whole clan sux at fighting on ground and blocking so you all made clan of cav,and horse archers.
I was lancer for 3 generations and it is easiest class to get kills.
Get champion arabian warhorse,and mw lance and own everyone.
You must be 13/14 years old? Reading your text I have come to the conclusion that you are obviously still in puberty, so I will respond in a simular way, only with some better grammar. I raped your scrawny ass multiple times as infantry. I agree, not all of our members can block that well but put MUSASHI, Chagan, masasa, gorilla, Garrus, Makadus, Elmer, Hagoone, Remy, Ulruk, Darkoveride or Wolf against you and I would bet on them every damn time. Not because they are great blockers or fighters, but because they are definately better than you are. And I'm not saying that I am good at infantry by the way, I consider myself mediocre. If I'm mediocre, what does that make you?
I remember you being a lancer. I remember how you use to rage when I dehorsed/killed you aswell. You were not good at it. I have never seen you topscore as a lancer yet you say you get easy kills with scores like 20-0 and so forth. I highly doubt it.

The Verdict:
Don't talk shit, Mlekce. I thought u were a decent guy but it seems that you are just as simple and narrow minded as some other cRPG users. Or maybe it's puberty, who knows. Don't do drugs.

Oh, and I approve of this topic. A nice read and spot on. Although I fear that it will not help us lancers much. The majority of the cavalry haters can not be reasoned with.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Toodles on July 02, 2012, 02:49:22 am
Good post!

I don't get the whining about horsemen - they're a very effective class in specific circumstances, utterly useless in others. The same CANNOT be said of polearm, two hand and one hand users who will do just as well in cramped situations as they will in the open. Horsemen DO take a huge risk going for "unaware" infantry, whether as a one hander swinging or two hander thrusting my success rate at dismounting or killing outright disregarding the two of us missing one another is about 70% - although I've never been successful at pulling the move on higher grade horsemen such as Oberyn or VAN Damme who're just too good at maneuvering in and out of range and adjusting their speed, although I find chambering the stabs can work quite well when they're circling and wiggling in and out slowly (with much less success since the overhead turn nerf, however).

Overall it's great fun fighting cav, as opposed to the endless pursuit of archers where theres little to do but wiggle senselessly in the hope they'll lead the shot the wrong way (although I do enjoy making them waste their arrows from afar by outfit viewing them and running in a straight line - then stopping when they shoot as if to tie my shoelaces :D).

Anyway my opinion is this : cavalry is a surprisingly well balanced class with high killing potential but at the cost of a greater necessity for appropriate terrain than any other.

Bjorn

PS : please don't chase cav.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 02:57:54 am
Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 01, 2012, 03:18:58 pm
I don't believe anyone is going to read that completely and attentively.

Except the ones that don't really need to be convinced. That's the problem with objective and sensible arguments.

The whole thing is biaised because it doesn't show the advantages of cav, which Renegat pretty much summarized. But still, the points being made stand.

Quote from: Adamar on July 01, 2012, 09:22:42 pm
The problem is infs are kids who play for fun rather than victory, and then complain here about th other classes. We'll kill each other so long as you infs play smart and hold, untill the cavs are down.

That's rubbish. Nobody will play a game just for the victory. Victory is only a medium through which you can enjoy the game, not the real end. cRPG was more entertaining to play back when victory mattered less and the overall atmosphere was centered around fun rather than competitiveness.

Also, with less competitiveness the need for balance falls down because nobody cares.



Anyway, I predict that even with no changes cavalry will be harder and harder to play in the future. Infantry already plays in loose formations, usually with pikes on both flanks, which prevents cav from attacking the group where it is weak, and with ranged support behind, which will do just as good, in a much wider zone.


In a group of infantry or ranged players, one aware guy is enough to cancel the horseman's attack and damaging/killing him and his horse.

Cav tends to be much more risky than infantry because safe kills are very rare. If you hang around the enemy group, you are alone, you will get shot and enemy cav will attack you. If you are downed nobody will come and rescue you. Infantry and ranged players on the contrary can very safely move and attack together, providing direct support to their allies.

Cav groups can do teamwork too, but cav teammates are much more dangerous than inf or ranged, even for other cav, because without precise coordination they will block your path and make you a sitting duck. There is nothing of the like in ranged or infantry groups, where only basic/no communication is required to make full use of your teammates.

As much as dealing with groups of enemies aware of you with any other class gives you decent chances, providing the group isn't ranged, is it borderline impossible for cav. Defeating one guy aware of you no matter his class if he doesn't take risks to kill you already is very difficult and relies more on his errors than on anything you can do (lance thrusts are the easiest weapon to block and chamberblock in the game, and dodging couched lances is only a tad harder, all with heavy armor of course). But if you ride close to multiple enemies there's bound to be one that will hurt you or your horse.

It takes something like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJCfUm21BsI for a cav to kill someone in a formation.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Gurnisson on July 02, 2012, 03:02:39 am
Quote from: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 02:57:54 am
Cav tends to be much more risky than infantry because safe kills are very rare.

Opposite of what I experienced as lancer. :?
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Christo on July 02, 2012, 03:08:11 am
Lancer cavalry should get some of it's old glory back.

"What glory?" you probably say.

Well, going head on against other cavalry, and not backraping people who are fighting.

Thanks to a lot of changes, cavalry players often avoid eachother. This is one of the main reason why there are so many horses.

Anti-cav Cavalry playstyle is pretty much impossible to pull off because the lancing angle is too strict, making fights random, a bit skill based but not as much as before.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 03:36:53 am
Quote from: Gurnisson on July 02, 2012, 03:02:39 am
Opposite of what I experienced as lancer. :?

Depends on the playstyle too.

There's always people that play more reckless or more cautious, and it depends on what class they play.

I say this because I think if you stay with your buddies as 2nd line infantry, there's pretty much nothing that can happen to you and at some point you will steal a kill, same with ranged staying close to infantry.

As cav you have more freedom but good target are rare. You only have decent chances against peasants and 1h that try to kill you or anyone really unaware of you (which is not possible to know beforehand because of the ~ key), but more importantly, anything bad happening to you is much much worse when you ride a horse. Making an error and getting hit usually isn't a death sentence in melee, but that's not true for cav.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: ShinySpoons on July 02, 2012, 06:58:38 am
Adding to Kafein, as cav its the easiest to rack up kills as well as the easiest to get killed. You're moving so fast much of the time either you run through a horde of infantry with nothing but a few arrows in you or you instantly die.

Also agreeing with the pikeman bit, you really don't do much damage to a horse when one stops them with a polearm.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Vibe on July 02, 2012, 07:50:08 am
Honestly, I'm having the easiest time getting kills on my cav alt and it's only lvl 25 or so
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 02, 2012, 08:25:46 am
Quote from: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 03:36:53 am
As cav you have more freedom but good target are rare.

lol
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Mlekce on July 02, 2012, 08:28:16 am
Quote
You must be 13/14 years old? Reading your text I have come to the conclusion that you are obviously still in puberty, so I will respond in a simular way, only with some better grammar. I raped your scrawny ass multiple times as infantry.

i must be. I don't remember that,but if you say so...

Quote
I agree, not all of our members can block that well but put MUSASHI, Chagan, masasa, gorilla, Garrus, Makadus, Elmer, Hagoone, Remy, Ulruk, Darkoveride or Wolf against you and I would bet on them every damn time. Not because they are great blockers or fighters, but because they are definately better than you are.


Challenge accepted.

Quote
And I'm not saying that I am good at infantry by the way, I consider myself mediocre. If I'm mediocre, what does that make you?
I remember you being a lancer. I remember how you use to rage when I dehorsed/killed you aswell. You were not good at it. I have never seen you topscore as a lancer yet you say you get easy kills with scores like 20-0 and so forth. I highly doubt it.

there is nothing much to do vs champion arrabian warhorse and mw heavy lance. My gear was not loomed and not close good as yours.
You don't need to have top score to have a good score. 11:2 is not top score,but it is damn good score.
Main reason i didn't have top score is because i fought cav,not inf. I had balls to attack everyone even you riding straight ahead.

Quote
Don't talk shit, Mlekce. I thought u were a decent guy but it seems that you are just as simple and narrow minded as some other cRPG users. Or maybe it's puberty, who knows. Don't do drugs.

Oh, and I approve of this topic. A nice read and spot on. Although I fear that it will not help us lancers much. The majority of the cavalry haters can not be reasoned with.

That still doesn't change fact that lance cav is easy. Just accept that,and move on.
If you were fighting on ground you would all have middle score,or below,but as cav you always have top scores so that says much about cav.
Even beer have top score as lancer. :P
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 02, 2012, 08:31:53 am
any "dedicated lancer cav" posting in this thread saying their class is difficult or underpowered is a liar protecting their hilariously OP and broken class, where 17-4 is a BAD score for any map

lance damage needs to be 25 percent less, horse stats should all be lowered significantly (especially maneuver and charge), ranged should do more damage to horses, and might as well make horses twice as expensive in upkeep

Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: BlueKnight on July 02, 2012, 09:54:51 am
Quote from: obitus on July 01, 2012, 09:30:46 pm
Seriously, we need something better than just "kills" statistics to determine who is helping their team the most.

Killing the enemy team's all-star best player gives the same statistical reward as stabbing an afk torch-wielding nake.

The best system would display MANY more stats!  Damage dealt, kills, dehorsings.  A combination thereof (arbitrary points) would be best for ranking, and as a kicker it should be weighted to reward more points for dealing damage/killing/dehorsing higher value targets.

"cost of enemies' gear" multiplied by % of the hp you have taken away from the enemy and divided by 100. so for example 33k*0,4*0,01= 132 points huh ?
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 10:58:34 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 02, 2012, 11:41:06 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 10:58:34 am
I'm the only twohander on EU servers who can, reliably, win in lancer vs 2h situations even if lancers do not make mistakes. I only lose to them if I make mistake, which means that in my case outcome depends on me.


lol sure you pretentious shit poster
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Vibe on July 02, 2012, 11:44:33 am
Quote from: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 10:58:34 am
Tommyyy, Riddaren, Chagan, Kerrigan, Garrus, Oberyn, Dede, Kafein, even part time cav like Muffin will kill players like Hearst, Cicero, GTX, Chase, Atze, Phyrex most of the time. Lancer cav vs greatsword.

I'm the only twohander on EU servers who can, reliably, win in lancer vs 2h situations even if lancers do not make mistakes. I only lose to them if I make mistake, which means that in my case outcome depends on me.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 11:47:35 am
But that's the only thing I'm good at :(

Whatever, no need to believe me.

Most EU cav know that already, others twohanders keep qqing how cav is easy mode because you can't counter them. Keep hiltslashing boys, that's all you'll ever learn.

Btw. Vibette you suck at cav and I don't know which 20 idiots you've killed to have 20-0 score at level 25 but surely none of them were decent players.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Vibe on July 02, 2012, 12:09:24 pm
Quote from: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 11:47:35 am
But that's the only thing I'm good at :(

Whatever, no need to believe me.

Most EU cav know that already, others twohanders keep qqing how cav is easy mode because you can't counter them. Keep hiltslashing boys, that's all you'll ever learn.

Btw. Vibette you suck at cav and I don't know which 20 idiots you've killed to have 20-0 score at level 25 but surely none of them were decent players.

Vibetty

I know I'm not very good at cav and the guys I killed were mostly unaware or engaged in combat. Also 20-0? Doubt I ever got that as a cav. How is that relevant even, I know how to counter cav on my 2h.

Cav is still eez mode though.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Molly on July 02, 2012, 12:35:56 pm
Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
After having reading your post, i feel like being a lancer is very difficult, you risk your life against every class but peasants, you can be one shot by mw arbalest + mw bolts if you don't wear heavy armor, your horse can die after having being shot only 4-5 times into body by bows +3 and arrows +3, and 2-3 times by arbalest (full loomed aswell), and so on ...
That's how you sum up a "lancer life", only "downsides" (that you exaggerate a lot imo).

Your resume is just biaised since you didn't speak about advantages lancers have towards infantry.

- You can 1 shot almost everything with couching. And no couching is not as risky as you describe it, why? As a 1 hander, my only option against lancers is to sidewalk on the right and do a left swing. How to counter that as a couchwhore lancer? Go a bit on your left before the impact. Many cav do that everytime, so it's impossible to kill them for a 1h. And please don't say me that i just have to sidewalk on the other side, even if i do it while the lancer is going on the left, his lance would hit my right arm.

- You 1 or 2 shot everything at high speed (i've 6 if, +3 katafraktoi armor, 57 head armor, and i often get one shot by lancers).

- Even after having losing your horse, you can fight in melee with decent weapons and no lack of wpf (unlike archers and crossbowmen who can only fight with shit weap but mace and have rarely more than 80 wpf in 2h)

- Again about fighting a shielder, you can bump/lance them easily, something you forgot to mention.

- You compared inf (who backstab and gang alot in your opinion) with cav who are actually doing the same. Fallacious argument again, how dare you putting cav and infantry on the same line when you know that cav can come from every sides and that you can hardly see them coming  when you're fighting due to their speed.

- You are complaining because your horse can "only" handle 4 or 5 shot into body by full loomed archer's gears? Why didn't you give us stats with non loomed archer/crossbowmen gears instead? It would be much more relevant since the majority of ranged do not have full loomed weapons ;) bad faith again, at least try to be more objective next time you write such a long text.

- You take a lot of risks each time you try to kill someone who's not a peasant? Isn't that the case for every class? If you wanted to do a comparison between inf and cav, it would have been more relevant to do it here. Is it more difficult to kill a 1h (for exemple) as a lancer or as a poleaxe-user? Here is a good comparison ;)

There is certainly more to say, but i think it's already enough.
Oh, and i don't think moving this topic into the Beginners Help and Guides is a good idea. He's explaining how to get kills as a lancer, not how to be usefull as a lancer, if newbies followed such advices, they would just attack peasants and avoid everything else. In other words, they would be merely useless.
QFT.
Nothing to add really, except that after 4-5 loomed arrows to the body and I've been already dead for 2 arrows and the archer is just having a nice time with my corpse. Yes, not my horse is dead but I am dead.
Ridiculous complaining and crying.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 01:32:24 pm
Cav is not like melee. They rely on speed bonus. Cav shouldn't have same dmg output as melee foot inf does.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: rebbrown on July 02, 2012, 01:38:32 pm
The punishment unarmored horses can take is ridiculous. As a first gen archer I ignore anything better than a rouncey or arabian warhorse because it takes anywhere from 8 to 12 arrows AND the ones I missed with. Another thing is that they're way too fucking quiet - an armored juggernaut charging about on a horse should make more sound than my girlfriend when I'm working my magic on her.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Chasey on July 02, 2012, 02:02:07 pm
cavs fine, just have a bit of awareness and dont tunnel vision and you'll do fine.So much whine for nerfs recently, if people just tried to improve on what there bad at and it seems for most of you that is cav, then you wouldnt need to call for nerfs. I rarely die from cav and not because of super duper fighting skills, but just becasue i take those extra 3 seconds to scan my screen for cav and keep track of where they are and where there going. Thats all it takes and your deaths from cav will drop by like 80%. So please every 1 stop lobbying for nerfs, this game is simplified and slow enough as it is.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Teeth on July 02, 2012, 03:06:14 pm
Quote from: Chasey on July 02, 2012, 02:02:07 pm
cavs fine, just have a bit of awareness and dont tunnel vision and you'll do fine.So much whine for nerfs recently, if people just tried to improve on what there bad at and it seems for most of you that is cav, then you wouldnt need to call for nerfs. I rarely die from cav and not because of super duper fighting skills, but just becasue i take those extra 3 seconds to scan my screen for cav and keep track of where they are and where there going. Thats all it takes and your deaths from cav will drop by like 80%. So please every 1 stop lobbying for nerfs, this game is simplified and slow enough as it is.
Perhaps cav being completely scared to death of you also helps? And the fact that you have a dozen fanboys following you around at all times helps too? Maybe that Long spear/Glaive/Danish makes you less of an attractive kill?

Yet I agree with you. I am one of the most shit classes against cav, especially now chambering lances has no use cause they pass you by faster than you can turn after a chamber, but still I don't have much of a problem with them. It is just painful to see all the random nubs get raped by cav because they have complete tunnelvision. That is never going to change though, so cav will always have an enormous influence on the outcome of a battle.

I think they should be given their lance angle back, so they don't have to rely on backstabs only, the horses should be made much more tough in the front. So charging aware people is an option. Maneuvering should be nerfed. This way they can attack aware people from the front much better, but they also have to anticipate more. They would be less unpredictable and easier to predict where they are going. Maybe we would get a little more brave cav that don't have to do laps around the map until they spot a noob which doesn't understand the outfit view key.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Chasey on July 02, 2012, 03:09:08 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 02, 2012, 03:06:14 pm
Perhaps cav being completely scared to death of you also helps? And the fact that you have a dozen fanboys following you around at all times helps too? Maybe that Long spear/Glaive/Danish makes you less of an attractive kill?

Its the war mask, every 1 is afraid of the war mask.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 02, 2012, 03:45:30 pm
I pretty much murder cav players except the really good ones with 2hand thrusts, and always scan around me (rebinded look to E), and focus on baiting cav by faking unawareness or manning up and 1 vs 1ing them, sure it's not very hard.

Doesn't mean that mounted heavy lance damage isn't at an astronomical percentage whenever they post the stats, and that in my testing with people like BADPLAYER a non loomed heavy lance will nearly black bar medium/heavy infantry with 2 powerstrike with a small arabian warhorse speed bonus.

I'm not the greatest cavalry player either and suicide my horse into shit all the time attacking aware polearmers and the like when I'm cav, but with half the effort I require as a melee class I can pretty much roll a 5x for hours at a time with little to zero support from anyone else, just by how damaging the lance is and how versatile in support a well ridden horse can be for your team.

Also, cav spam on the servers is awful, only thing worse is thrower spam, and the two feed off each other.  So nerf both, please.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Adamar on July 02, 2012, 03:50:04 pm
Buff ranged instead  :)
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Perverz on July 04, 2012, 09:22:28 am
nice job Ange.
Chasey u r complitly right
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Oberyn on July 04, 2012, 09:30:21 am
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 02, 2012, 11:41:06 am
lol sure you pretentious shit poster

So much irony, while simultaneously being accurate.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Kenji on July 04, 2012, 10:22:09 am
So far I've only enjoyed cav simply because melee felt more like this (http://youtu.be/4SK0cUNMnMM) :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Dionysus on July 04, 2012, 09:02:54 pm
I don't know about the rest of the community, but I engage cavalry first. If I survive, I engage infantry next. Also, I don't like couching my lance because it takes away a lot of maneuverability. Cavalry is easy to play, yes, if you know how to play in general. It is a very user-friendly, balanced class.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Riddaren on July 04, 2012, 09:13:05 pm
Quote from: Grandorf on July 04, 2012, 09:02:54 pm
I don't know about the rest of the community, but I engage cavalry first. If I survive, I engage infantry next. Also, I don't like couching my lance because it takes away a lot of maneuverability. Cavalry is easy to play, yes, if you know how to play in general. It is a very user-friendly, balanced class.

Cavalry players bumping, wounding and killing teamates are most often bad or less good players and they annoy people a lot.
Taken that into account I wouldn't call cavalry user friendly. But yes, you can get alot of kills.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Penitent on July 05, 2012, 01:20:36 am
very good post.  It's pretty spot-on.

Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Muki on July 05, 2012, 01:28:21 am
Good read and advice
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Vicious666 on July 05, 2012, 01:31:33 am
lancer is a fucking noob class.  is easy to kill ppl  running around fast and having a long weapon


look tommyyyy, best cavalry  guy in game imho,  with a horse he is  GIANT PAIN IN THE ASS even switch the balance of a 20 vs 20 game

on foot? a very good player but i  can defeat him 1 on 1.

that tells you exactly  how the lancer+horse     give a huge boost,  expecial if you are not a total scrub,     the horse enhance a player like tommy from very good (on ground) to  formidable  , that means a bad player turn into average, and average into good , just for the setup itself
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Leshma on July 05, 2012, 11:20:17 am
Quote from: Vicious666 on July 05, 2012, 01:31:33 am
on foot? a very good player but i  can defeat him 1 on 1.

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Kerrigan on July 05, 2012, 12:18:56 pm
I'd say cavalry is easy to learn, hard to master.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Assarhaddon on July 05, 2012, 03:08:41 pm
Excellent post, you earned your renown, +1.

Quote from: Angellore on July 01, 2012, 02:46:31 pm
Killing horse lancer: I can say obvious thing here. It’s risky! In my opinion too risky to do it after game starts. Hits are based by what server sees, not what you sees, so because of closing horses speed, sometimes I see I did everything perfectly, but server says that enemy just killed me, which is a bit depressing. I can still kill more lancers than I dies this way, but even with 60:40 ratio, it’s just too risky for me. So I’m trying to avoid other lancers, especially at the beginning of the round. I have plenty easier targets on the ground to take care of in this time.
My advice: Avoid if you can!

I do feel the need to comment this one, i wonder why?  :mrgreen:

Yes its risky and what the server sees, decide's who hits first aka you lag you die.
But there are few tricks you can do to tip the odd's on your favour.
The obvious: timing, the length of your lance and turning your horse.
(The last is no longer so obvious after the lance angle nerf, which i hate. I get the need to balance inf vs cav. But it removed one skill to master that separated "good lancers from bad".)

But there is still few more "tricks" the "good lancers" use.
One of em i learned from Oberyn and no he did not tell it to me, had to die like "billion" times to figure it out myself. (So quess, am i gonno say it out loud?)
There is one more i know, but i like to stay at the top of the food chain.  :twisted:
But 'they' are there, ever so subtle, working for us..


Sincerely, top of the food chain.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 04:28:04 pm
Quote from: Vicious666 on July 05, 2012, 01:31:33 am
lancer is a fucking noob class.  is easy to kill ppl  running around fast and having a long weapon


look tommyyyy, best cavalry  guy in game imho,  with a horse he is  GIANT PAIN IN THE ASS even switch the balance of a 20 vs 20 game

on foot? a very good player but i  can defeat him 1 on 1.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,1.0.html
that tells you exactly  how the lancer+horse     give a huge boost,  expecial if you are not a total scrub,     the horse enhance a player like tommy from very good (on ground) to  formidable  , that means a bad player turn into average, and average into good , just for the setup itself
Hey, you're sort of a retard, you know? Being good at aiming as an archer has nothing to do with your melee skills, and being a good lancer also doesn't require you to be a decent infantry... TomMyyY isn't a good cav due to being a decent infantry, these things ain't really connected 100%, and you're pretty fucking stupid if you believe it, also, seeing as the horse makes TomMyyY better and you're better than TomMyyY why don't you buy a horse and try to outskill TomMyyY as cavalry?
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Gurnisson on July 05, 2012, 04:29:58 pm
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 04:28:04 pm
seeing as the horse makes TomMyyY better and you're better than TomMyyY why don't you buy a horse and try to outskill TomMyyY as cavalry?

+1 :lol:
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: oprah_winfrey on July 05, 2012, 04:54:17 pm
Fact: Shitty cav aim for other players horses. (Not talking about a guy who is turtled up or downblock heroing to get to the afks on the otherside, but one that is  engaging you head on)
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 04:59:59 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on July 05, 2012, 04:54:17 pm
Fact: Shitty cav aim for other players horses. (Not talking about a guy who is turtled up or downblock heroing to get to the afks on the otherside, but one that is  engaging you head on)
True that, after owning Torben last night the my old friend aimed for my horse next round... Torben is shitty!
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 05, 2012, 06:37:40 pm
Quote from: Assarhaddon on July 05, 2012, 03:08:41 pm

One of em i learned from Oberyn and no he did not tell it to me, had to die like "billion" times to figure it out myself. (So quess, am i gonno say it out loud?)
There is one more i know, but i like to stay at the top of the food chain.  :twisted:
But 'they' are there, ever so subtle, working for us..


Sincerely, top of the food chain.

Try to do an angle on other cav where you "cross their t" so they can't hit your horse's head so easily but you can lance them.  Harder with angle nerf, but doable.  Also slow your horse down to a crawl when right about to engage so they release lance too early.  If horses ram into each other aim lance up and drag down to not glance. There the secrets are out of the bag, make sure you aim for horse's head only to grief cav because it's an OP scrub "class" (its true)

Double cost of riding (6 points again so people can't hybrid melee cav so easily) lower charge damage, reduce all lance and xbow stats by 25 percent while mounted, tia
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 07:08:04 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 05, 2012, 06:37:40 pm
Double cost of riding (6 points again so people can't hybrid melee cav so easily)
Fuck you
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Angellore on July 05, 2012, 07:08:56 pm
Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
- You can 1 shot almost everything with couching. And no couching is not as risky as you describe it, why? As a 1 hander, my only option against lancers is to sidewalk on the right and do a left swing. How to counter that as a couchwhore lancer? Go a bit on your left before the impact. Many cav do that everytime, so it's impossible to kill them for a 1h. And please don't say me that i just have to sidewalk on the other side, even if i do it while the lancer is going on the left, his lance would hit my right arm.
You can sidewalk, jump, make left or right swing or thrust. But yeah, I agree shielder is one of easiest target for lancer to kill from all aware opponents (I wrote that before in this topic). Still, I believe you have easiest class to play, your swings are very fast, left swing by default aims enemy’s head and make just massive damage, you can just press right mouse button to block all attacks (it’s so much better than auto block, and same time you don’t cheat at all), you can block all arrows, throwing stuff and almost all bolts. And you still want to be able to kill lancer easily with your short sword? It’s so simple thinking, you want to have everything, you don’t want any disadvantages and any counters.
If you want to be safe from cav, you can always use 2 slots spear, like Dalhi does. Then you will be almost unbeatable on the battlefield, something you want to force as “balanced” state. Really, shielder should be the last class to whine about other classes imbalance.

Couching isn’t that easy as you think, you should really try lancer someday. It isn’t just like regular attack, you are mistaken here. Firstly, couching makes your horse much less maneuverable, which makes it predictable target. You also won’t be able to “hide” your horse’s head in last moment while using couch. Couching target which stands in front of your horse is impossible, since couched lance has different animation of holding it (regular attack is from far right side, which lets you hit targets standing in front of the horse, couching just drops lance down, you have no angle to attack targets in front, horse’s head won’t let you do that). More than that, couched lance moves much slower, it don’t react to your mouse moves instantly. If you want to move couched lance from right to left side of the horse (or the other way), lance needs to “go round” horse’s head, and it takes ages to do that, too long to do anything if target change direction of his movement just before you reach him. And still, couched lance is much shorter attack than regular lance stab, that means your horse’s head is even more expose to enemy stabs. Trying to couch good player will be equivalent to suicide charge most of the time.

Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
- You 1 or 2 shot everything at high speed (i've 6 if, +3 katafraktoi armor, 57 head armor, and i often get one shot by lancers).
Maybe I have too low PS (just 6), but sometimes with high speed of horse I don’t one-hit-kill even archers. And with latest horses maneuver nerf I can’t just turn quickly and attack again, at least with my Destrier (I guess it is still possible with Arabian Warhorse, since this horse has ridiculous maneuver and acceleration/stopping abilities). But yeah, it’s true, with completely flat terrain, target which don’t move away from you (standing still for example), at full speed and with head hit (so in perfect conditions), you will be able to kill many players just from one hit.
You can call this high risk, high reward, because just one mistake or bad luck, and your horse’s speed will work as your disadvantage. Even with Coat of Plates +3, at full speed, I’m almost always dying from just 1 body hit of any weapon. Sometimes I can survive with like 5-10% hp left, but it don’t happen often (not at full horse speed). So speed helps lancer, but same time can be deadly for him as well. Every attack can be your last one, no matter who you fight with.

Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
- Even after having losing your horse, you can fight in melee with decent weapons and no lack of wpf (unlike archers and crossbowmen who can only fight with shit weap but mace and have rarely more than 80 wpf in 2h)
I guess you are talking about pure polearm build cav, which I use currently? Before that build I played as polearm/1h hybrid, so I had to split proficiencies. Yeah, playing full polearm cav has its advantages. Big disadvantage is I can’t use shield on horseback (not enough weapon slots), so I can’t benefit from shield forcefield (which is ridiculous, but shielders don’t talk about that of course).

I remember times when you had to choose to protect head OR legs with your shield. Two cooperating archers could kill every shielder with small shield (especially rounded one) back then. I don’t really understand forcefield existence in cRPG, since you can just buy any shield you want here, so if you want to have both head and legs protected from ranged, you can always take huge shield like Heavy Board Shield. That’s why in cRPG shielders don’t need forcefield, they can choose big shield (better against ranged) or small shield (better in melee). It would give more options and will freshen up gameplay a bit. But that would be a nerf to infantry of course, so it has no chance to be implemented. You want to be able to block all arrows with Buckler, and kill all horses with your little sword, typical thinking.

Anyway, back to the topic. I had to sacrifice skill points to get riding. For high level char maybe it isn’t big problem. For me it is, because I’m running with 0 ATH. I don’t know if you tried to melee with 0 ATH, but it’s just terrible. People are running around me, and I’m basically standing target. I’m not saying I can’t kill anyone on foot, but it’s huge disadvantage to be slow. So you have to sacrifice something, at least if you are below 34-35.

Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
- Again about fighting a shielder, you can bump/lance them easily, something you forgot to mention.
It’s not that easy, but yeah it happens from time to time. This game has plenty of illogical possibilities, but of course you are focusing on bump lance, which isn’t even close as bad as sidewalking, shield forcefield, lack of fatigue or many, many more things. And no, I don’t want sidewalking to be changed, since that would completely change melee, make it slower and much more predictable, like in real life where you have to use your muscles before you do any action. Realism isn’t always the way to go and I understand that. But somehow everyone is talking about realism only when they want to nerf archers or cav.
 
Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
- You compared inf (who backstab and gang alot in your opinion) with cav who are actually doing the same. Fallacious argument again, how dare you putting cav and infantry on the same line when you know that cav can come from every sides and that you can hardly see them coming  when you're fighting due to their speed.
I never really had problems with spotting cav, maybe because I was paying more attention to it? I think bigger problem is silent infantry, which makes almost no sound at all, even with heavy armor. You can easily hear most horses, and with 4 speakers (or more), you know from which side they comes. I remember as infantry I didn’t like only Courser, because of its speed – you could hear it in last moment, just before attack, which was a bit problematic if I didn’t use tilde to spot it earlier for some reason. But it’s good thing imo to have this kind of horse, it gives more alternatives to cav class. But no, I never had problems with hearing other, slower horses than Courser. Also, you can use Lauder Horses cheat to get even bigger advantage over cav.

Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
- You are complaining because your horse can "only" handle 4 or 5 shot into body by full loomed archer's gears? Why didn't you give us stats with non loomed archer/crossbowmen gears instead? It would be much more relevant since the majority of ranged do not have full loomed weapons ;) bad faith again, at least try to be more objective next time you write such a long text.
I’m sure most of people has at least loomed weapon, especially ranged gear isn’t that expensive, 2 loompoints are enough to buy ranged weapon +3 (you can get 2 loompoints after just few weeks of playing). Crossbowman (arbalester) does high damage to horse, no matter is his arbalest at +0 or +3. And as for new archer, he has hard life here in crpg, no matter if we are talking about damage against horses or damage against players – archer without loomed bow is pretty useless here. Well, yeah he can use Longbow +0, it has nice damage (like Rus Bow +3), but not many people does that, maybe because Long Bow often has pause before it shoots (before it releases the arrow). I completely agree, damage of low level archer, with unloomed bow (like Horn Bow) is a joke, but it’s overall problem. At the moment it’s too big difference between lvl 2x archer with bow +0 and lvl 35 archer with bow +3. The first ones can barely make even K:D ratio if they are lucky, and the other ones does pretty well indeed.

Anyway, horse is very predictable target, it can't sidewalk or change direction of movement quickly. It's possible to take down horses even from 200 meters for ranged. And it's definitely not pleasant to be hit in horse’s head by an archer from such a long range. Aware ranged is biggest treat to horses, especially if many ranged are in game same time (horse always has same HP, no matter if there are 10, 20 or 30 ranged in game). So no, I don’t think mixed 1 bolt and 2 arrows into horse body during 7 minutes of Battle is too much to kill it, especially I’m using Destrier +3, which is much tougher horse than Courser or Arabian (they can be killed from 2-3 body hits from archers). With rate of fire and range archer has, with horses path predictability, it’s not really that hard to kill horse even from bigger range.
 
Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
- You take a lot of risks each time you try to kill someone who's not a peasant? Isn't that the case for every class? If you wanted to do a comparison between inf and cav, it would have been more relevant to do it here. Is it more difficult to kill a 1h (for exemple) as a lancer or as a poleaxe-user? Here is a good comparison ;)
I know as infantry I couldn’t be 1-hit-killed by shielder, as lancer it happens very often. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. If you are talking about risk involved, I think it’s much less risky to attack shielder as poleaxe user, you can make 2-3 mistakes and still be alive. As for being easy, you probably want to hear that lancer can 1-hit-kill shielder. Yeah, it’s true, but it works both ways around, rider can be 1-hit-killed as well.
I have to say, I don’t see any sense in this kind of comparison – what about is it easier to kill archer by 2h user or shielder? And what this comparison really proves? That we have different classes with different advantages and disadvantages?

Quote from: Renegat on July 02, 2012, 12:13:48 am
Oh, and i don't think moving this topic into the Beginners Help and Guides is a good idea. He's explaining how to get kills as a lancer, not how to be usefull as a lancer, if newbies followed such advices, they would just attack peasants and avoid everything else. In other words, they would be merely useless.
And you finally got the point how it is to be lancer. Without backstabbing you are useless. Attacking only aware targets will end up lancer’s life in first 30 seconds of the battle. At the moment playing lancer is almost purely tactical game, you need to analyze your success chance for every attack, if the risk is too high, just skip the target and try to find better one. If you choose wrong target, make mistake or attack faked “unaware” player, you will quickly end up dead. I find this tactical game very funny, and I don’t understand why this should be changed in your mind, especially cav don’t dominate battlefield as you are trying to prove, it’s pretty well balanced in my opinion. It’s just different class, which bases on people awareness. Until most people don’t pay attention what happens at their back, cav is fine as it is.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 05, 2012, 07:43:06 pm
bump lancing is easy to do every time, couching is OP and overly abused by good cav players to pad their KD with 1 shot kills in the first minute of the round (also impossible to lose 1 vs 1 against 2hander with couched heavy lance), horses are very durable except from throwing axes or loomed rus bows (good counters to low armor horses, should do less damage to melee)

regular heavy lance and 3 PS can one shot or blackbar medium infantry at trotting pace, confirmed in testing, high speed MW heavy lance will nearly 1 shot strength builds in heavy armor, cav has too much leeway for making awful mistakes and escaping (fast turning, acceleration, shield bubble, tanking most melee hits)

cav should not be able to get out of a stop and turn situation as fast as they can, also you can jump and clear entire mobs of infantry or 8 foot tall walls to escape, so silly
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Assarhaddon on July 05, 2012, 07:59:04 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 05, 2012, 06:37:40 pm
Try to do an angle on other cav where you "cross their t" so they can't hit your horse's head so easily but you can lance them.  Harder with angle nerf, but doable.  Also slow your horse down to a crawl when right about to engage so they release lance too early.  If horses ram into each other aim lance up and drag down to not glance.
yes and they fall under these ..
Quote from: Assarhaddon on July 05, 2012, 03:08:41 pm
The obvious: timing, the length of your lance and turning your horse.

Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: oprah_winfrey on July 05, 2012, 09:07:20 pm
You should need to invest more points to make a lancer. As it is now, all you need is 5-6 riding to get on your horse and like 2-3 WM if you arent planning to use a polearm on the ground. Otherwise, you have what we have now, where a lot of high level players tacked on some riding and some pole proficiency and still have a regular level 30+ build on foot.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 09:16:31 pm
Quote from: oprah_winfrey on July 05, 2012, 09:07:20 pm
You should need to invest more points to make a lancer. As it is now, all you need is 5-6 riding to get on your horse and like 2-3 WM if you arent planning to use a polearm on the ground. Otherwise, you have what we have now, where a lot of high level players tacked on some riding and some pole proficiency and still have a regular level 30+ build on foot.
Yes, but adding to the horse requirements isn't the answer, what this does is nerf the weak builds of HAs and HTs, just 'cuss making a lancer hybrid is some easy shit doesn't mean you should kill off every other kind of cav to prevent it.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Moncho on July 05, 2012, 09:52:19 pm
incoming suggestion, please read at your own risk:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Renegat on July 06, 2012, 01:05:57 pm
Quote from: Angellore on July 05, 2012, 07:08:56 pm
You can sidewalk, jump, make left or right swing or thrust. But yeah, I agree shielder is one of easiest target for lancer to kill from all aware opponents (I wrote that before in this topic). Still, I believe you have easiest class to play, your swings are very fast, left swing by default aims enemy’s head and make just massive damage, you can just press right mouse button to block all attacks (it’s so much better than auto block, and same time you don’t cheat at all), you can block all arrows, throwing stuff and almost all bolts. And you still want to be able to kill lancer easily with your short sword? It’s so simple thinking, you want to have everything, you don’t want any disadvantages and any counters.

lol, so many false information and poncifs about shielders, i advice you to try it out, you'll see how "easy" it is ;) Iwon't answer to that anyway, that's not the current subject and you obviously don't know what you're speaking about.

If you want to be safe from cav, you can always use 2 slots spear, like Dalhi does. Then you will be almost unbeatable on the battlefield, something you want to force as “balanced” state. Really, shielder should be the last class to whine about other classes imbalance.

I don't share your view on this point : In my opinion, each class should have at least one way to counter every others class. Of course, the difficulty should change according to what class you are and what class your ennemie is, but in short, i think there should not be "fatality". For exemple, an archer should have a way to counter a shielder, even if shielders have the advantage. Of course, the archer have to be realy skilled and good to do so, but saying "'oh it's a shielder, let's give up, it's my natural predator" is merely foolish and narrow-minded. What make this game that awesome is that almost every class have atleast one way to defend itself against every other class, wanting to remove that and just making the game "linear" would be a big mistake imo.
That works for shielders vs lancers too. A very skilled shielder should have at least one way to defend himself against lancer, even if he has a 65 length weapon. We have, it's what you called "sidewalk", i can beat a bad lancer with that, but i've never managed to kill tommy with it, for exemple, kerrigan very rarely, and maganda aswell. If you have difficulty with the sidewalk, put yourself in question and improve your skills, but whining about it is a waste of time.


Couching isn’t that easy as you think, you should really try lancer someday. It isn’t just like regular attack, you are mistaken here. Firstly, couching makes your horse much less maneuverable, which makes it predictable target. You also won’t be able to “hide” your horse’s head in last moment while using couch. Couching target which stands in front of your horse is impossible, since couched lance has different animation of holding it (regular attack is from far right side, which lets you hit targets standing in front of the horse, couching just drops lance down, you have no angle to attack targets in front, horse’s head won’t let you do that). More than that, couched lance moves much slower, it don’t react to your mouse moves instantly. If you want to move couched lance from right to left side of the horse (or the other way), lance needs to “go round” horse’s head, and it takes ages to do that, too long to do anything if target change direction of his movement just before you reach him. And still, couched lance is much shorter attack than regular lance stab, that means your horse’s head is even more expose to enemy stabs. Trying to couch good player will be equivalent to suicide charge most of the time.

Thanks but i've already played lancer, and couching is easy imo, no use to try to convince me that couching is difficult. I already explained why it is and how to do to avoid risks when you couch in my previous post.


I guess you are talking about pure polearm build cav, which I use currently? Before that build I played as polearm/1h hybrid, so I had to split proficiencies. Yeah, playing full polearm cav has its advantages. Big disadvantage is I can’t use shield on horseback (not enough weapon slots), so I can’t benefit from shield forcefield (which is ridiculous, but shielders don’t talk about that of course).

So you would like to have your heavy lance to one shot almost everybody, your great long axe to fight on foot and a shield to not be shot by ranged? Since every class has this problem, I would not called that a disadvantage ;) Archers have it, Polearm and 2h also (not if they put skill point in shield and take a shield with them, but fighting with a shield on its back is realy painfull imo, that's why you don't often 2h/pole with shields on them ;) if you want to benefit from "shield forcefield", just be a shielder, not a lancer ... Don't understand what you're complaining about here.

I remember times when you had to choose to protect head OR legs with your shield. Two cooperating archers could kill every shielder with small shield (especially rounded one) back then. I don’t really understand forcefield existence in cRPG, since you can just buy any shield you want here, so if you want to have both head and legs protected from ranged, you can always take huge shield like Heavy Board Shield. That’s why in cRPG shielders don’t need forcefield, they can choose big shield (better against ranged) or small shield (better in melee). It would give more options and will freshen up gameplay a bit. But that would be a nerf to infantry of course, so it has no chance to be implemented. You want to be able to block all arrows with Buckler, and kill all horses with your little sword, typical thinking.

lol again, if two archers cooperate, one will go on the right, the other one the left, then cross fire. As i said previously, there should not be fatality in this game, willing to have linear class and action is foolish and narrow minded imo (for exemple, an archer can't do anything against a shielder, a shielder can't do anything against a lancer, a 2h can't do anything against an archer, and so on). By the way, i could just anwer something like "You want to be able to have a shield, an heavy lance on horseback AND a decent weapon to fight with on foot, being able to turn back fast when you miss and just bump your target, not seeing your horse dying after 5 hits from full loomed archers, not being killed by shielders because they have short weapons even if they are super-skilled, ans so on ... Typical thinking"

Anyway, back to the topic. I had to sacrifice skill points to get riding. For high level char maybe it isn’t big problem. For me it is, because I’m running with 0 ATH. I don’t know if you tried to melee with 0 ATH, but it’s just terrible. People are running around me, and I’m basically standing target. I’m not saying I can’t kill anyone on foot, but it’s huge disadvantage to be slow. So you have to sacrifice something, at least if you are below 34-35.

Poor dude, you're a cav and you have a disadvantage (slight imo) when you're on foot ...

It’s not that easy, but yeah it happens from time to time. This game has plenty of illogical possibilities, but of course you are focusing on bump lance, which isn’t even close as bad as sidewalking, shield forcefield, lack of fatigue or many, many more things.

lol

 I never really had problems with spotting cav, maybe because I was paying more attention to it? I think bigger problem is silent infantry, which makes almost no sound at all, even with heavy armor. You can easily hear most horses, and with 4 speakers (or more), you know from which side they comes. I remember as infantry I didn’t like only Courser, because of its speed – you could hear it in last moment, just before attack, which was a bit problematic if I didn’t use tilde to spot it earlier for some reason. But it’s good thing imo to have this kind of horse, it gives more alternatives to cav class. But no, I never had problems with hearing other, slower horses than Courser. Also, you can use Lauder Horses cheat to get even bigger advantage over cav.

Well, you answer that to "how dare you saying that inf can backstab/gangbang poeple as easily as cav does, when you obviously know that cav can run over the whole map in 30 seconds and are more difficult to spot than inf". I don't get your point here ...

I’m sure most of people has at least loomed weapon, especially ranged gear isn’t that expensive, 2 loompoints are enough to buy ranged weapon +3 (you can get 2 loompoints after just few weeks of playing). Crossbowman (arbalester) does high damage to horse, no matter is his arbalest at +0 or +3.

So you think that most of ranged in crpg are at least gen 5 (i would have say gen 7, but for you 4 loompoint are enough to buy + 3 rus bow/arbalest and + 3 bodkin/tatar/steel bolts, so i'll take your standart)?
Don't know what to answer here ... Maybe we're not playing on the same server.


 I know as infantry I couldn’t be 1-hit-killed by shielder, as lancer it happens very often. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. If you are talking about risk involved, I think it’s much less risky to attack shielder as poleaxe user, you can make 2-3 mistakes and still be alive. As for being easy, you probably want to hear that lancer can 1-hit-kill shielder. Yeah, it’s true, but it works both ways around, rider can be 1-hit-killed as well.

Here was my point : Poleaxe users are or should be the "natural counter" to shielders, but in fact, a poleaxe user would have much more difficulty in killing a shielder than a lancer. That also works if you compare shielders against archers with lancers against archers and so on. Exemple : Put dalhi (who's known as a good shielder) against dieler with a poleaxe, who would win? I don't know. Now put Dalhi against musashi or masasa whith their horses (i think one of them is a decent lancer, don't remember which one)with his horse. I would bet on the lancer. You also can do that with a good 2h, a good polearm user (apart from pike/spear users) and so on. The result will be the same. 

I have to say, I don’t see any sense in this kind of comparison – what about is it easier to kill archer by 2h user or shielder? And what this comparison really proves? That we have different classes with different advantages and disadvantages?

That would proves that lancers have a big advantage over many class, and that seeing a lancer whining about how difficult his class is is irrelevant.

And you finally got the point how it is to be lancer. Without backstabbing you are useless. Attacking only aware targets will end up lancer’s life in first 30 seconds of the battle. At the moment playing lancer is almost purely tactical game, you need to analyze your success chance for every attack, if the risk is too high, just skip the target and try to find better one. If you choose wrong target, make mistake or attack faked “unaware” player, you will quickly end up dead. I find this tactical game very funny, and I don’t understand why this should be changed in your mind, especially cav don’t dominate battlefield as you are trying to prove, it’s pretty well balanced in my opinion. It’s just different class, which bases on people awareness. Until most people don’t pay attention what happens at their back, cav is fine as it is.

Well the point of my post was not to say "nerf cav", i was lobbying for a lancer nerf some months ago, but i actually think cav is ok now. The main problem, in my opinion, is the number of cav on the battlefield nowadays, which i find overly huge. No wonder if you're aware or not when something like 15/20 ennemie cav are attacking your team on an open field, infantry can not handle that many cav, and it makes infantry acting like "ok, let's camp the corner of the map, so that cav won't be able to rape us too much thanks to invisible wall" or on a village map "let's camp this tower" or "let's camp those ruins" or "..." Camp camp camp, that's fucking boring, there's no tactic anymore, a group of 15 poeple can't flank while others are fighting because 15 cav will directly rape them, there were many ways to bring the victory to your team in making tactics with your clanmates or teammates, now the only viable one is to say to your team "ok guys, let's rush ruins and camp it, so that we won't get raped by lancers"

Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Angellore on July 06, 2012, 05:17:40 pm
Oh I get it now Renegat, you are trolling. Sorry, I’m not good troll hunter.

1) You are saying that every class should be able to kill every other class. So let’s think about this a little. Lancer/1h cav has no chances to kill pikeman/longspearman, horse archers and horse crossbowmans, regular archers and crossbowmans standing on top of stairs/ladders/in corners/on the roofs/mountains – so according to your own thinking lancer/1h cav should be hugely buffed (!). And same time you admit later, as a shielder, you can kill almost all lancers (except one guy) with your short sword. So your class is able to kill every lancer, except one guy. And I don’t think you are awesome, amazing and top player, there are plenty harder shielders to beat, but you still can kill every lancer except Tommy. So, as a shielder, you already have in game what you want to have, it makes no sense! Trolling!

2) Again, you admit that even with your short 1h sword you can often beat bad lancers, very rarely few best lancers, you didn’t beat yet just one guy (Tommy). But earlier you wrote lancer is unbeatable by shielder: “As a 1 hander, my only option against lancers is to sidewalk on the right and do a left swing. How to counter that as a couchwhore lancer? Go a bit on your left before the impact. Many cav do that everytime, so it's impossible to kill them for a 1h.”. Completely lack of consequences here! Trolling!

3) You wrote I don’t lose anything for being cav and can still be regular infantry when dismounted. And when I replied I’m losing 8 skill points for being cav, which I could use for eg. ATH and IF as infantry, you wrote:  “Poor dude, you're a cav and you have a disadvantage (slight imo) when you're on foot”. You just admit your previous argument is invalid. And you used irony and imply I want to have riding, IF and ATH same time, and I never wanted that. Everything is fine as it is! Pointless discussion. Trolling!

4) You wrote that there is no tactics in this game because of cav, and it’s completely opposite. Cav can’t charge organized team, in fact cav get kills only thanks to disorganized enemy. Without cav people will just run randomly on their own with no fear. Argument that cav don’t let people to use tactics has no sense. Trolling!

Well, again I got trolled. I’m afraid, I just take everything too serious :(.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Renegat on July 07, 2012, 12:52:40 pm
Quote from: Angellore on July 06, 2012, 05:17:40 pm
1) You are saying that every class should be able to kill every other class. So let’s think about this a little. Lancer/1h cav has no chances to kill pikeman/longspearman, horse archers and horse crossbowmans, regular archers and crossbowmans standing on top of stairs/ladders/in corners/on the roofs/mountains – so according to your own thinking lancer/1h cav should be hugely buffed (!).

royans has no difficulty in killing HA/HX with his sword, so it should not be that difficult for a good lancer ;)

 And same time you admit later, as a shielder, you can kill almost all lancers (except one guy) with your short sword. So your class is able to kill every lancer, except one guy. And I don’t think you are awesome, amazing and top player, there are plenty harder shielders to beat, but you still can kill every lancer except Tommy. So, as a shielder, you already have in game what you want to have, it makes no sense! Trolling!

Learn to read, i said that we have only way to kill lancers, and this way is easy to counter for a lancer. Once you did that to a lancer, he won't make the same error twice (apart if he is stupid). Plus, i havn't speak about my own skills or whatever, don't try to make me say bullshit.

2) Again, you admit that even with your short 1h sword you can often beat bad lancers, very rarely few best lancers, you didn’t beat yet just one guy (Tommy). But earlier you wrote lancer is unbeatable by shielder: “As a 1 hander, my only option against lancers is to sidewalk on the right and do a left swing. How to counter that as a couchwhore lancer? Go a bit on your left before the impact. Many cav do that everytime, so it's impossible to kill them for a 1h.”. Completely lack of consequences here! Trolling!

That's exactly the same point here, don't know why you need to repeat it. Plus, what you quote is about couching, what you're speaking about is about lancing, i advice you to put more concentration in your reading, that would prevent you from saying nonsense like this one.

3) You wrote I don’t lose anything for being cav and can still be regular infantry when dismounted. And when I replied I’m losing 8 skill points for being cav, which I could use for eg. ATH and IF as infantry, you wrote:  “Poor dude, you're a cav and you have a disadvantage (slight imo) when you're on foot”.

as you can see in your quote, there is a "slight imo", this means that the "disadvantage" of lancers when they're on foot is almost not noticable. Here is the problem i was pointing, so there is no nonsense between that and what i was saying previously.

4) You wrote that there is no tactics in this game because of cav, and it’s completely opposite. Cav can’t charge organized team, in fact cav get kills only thanks to disorganized enemy. Without cav people will just run randomly on their own with no fear. Argument that cav don’t let people to use tactics has no sense. Trolling!

You know what you're saying is totally wrong. Of course cav kill isolated ennemies, but if it was the only thing they could kill, they wouldn't have that many kills. You're so bad faith, you use fallacious argument just to prove your point, which is silly and slow down the discussion.
In all that discussion, your only "weapon" was to find some nonsense in what i was saying, which makes the debate boring and useless. Someone who would have want to make the discussion usefull would have try to find other arguments to prove his point, and make the discussion "go up" (don't know if that expression exist in english).


I tried to pull your attention on the upsurge of cav number, which is the main problem for me. But instead of answering something clever (yes or no with some arguments) you just pass off this point and kept on trying to find some nonsense in what i was saying. Even when i made a concession, that lancers don't need a nerf imo, you stayed on this discussion "nerf cav or don't nerf it". I actually thought we could have a serious, or at least argumented, discussion, but it seems we can't.
Oh, and i don't permit you to dim my 1h skills, since you obviously don't know what you're talking about. I havn't, at any moment, spoke of you or your skills, cause it has no sense to bring that in such a discussion. So the minimum would have been to do the same towards me.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Plavor on July 07, 2012, 01:02:59 pm
So many noobs in this topic.

Fool 1 ) Angellore

Fool 2 ) Renegat

However, try to refer to the arguments of the opposite or you will fail discussing properly.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 07, 2012, 02:50:25 pm
Quote from: Renegat on July 07, 2012, 12:52:40 pm
Royans has no difficulty in killing HA/HX with his sword, so it should not be that difficult for a good lancer ;)
I gotta call your bullshit here, unless he's on a champ arabian and after ages of dodging and slowly getting closer he might catch the HA/HX (or the HA/HX is a noob who sucks at riding, fuck I can catch tons of horrible HA who suck and would never hit me on my lancer alt as well), HA/HX can just shoot his horse, and a HT can charge straight at him, holding a throwing lance prepared to throw it in his chest the moment he lowers his gay ass shield.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Stonewallis on July 10, 2012, 10:39:54 pm
As a perpetually low tier, part-time player who sucks in melee and thus relies on lancer cav or crossbow each generation or respec, I'd like to say that if this concern over gameplay balance was ignored by the modders and reality was adhered too, people would adjust.  Lets be fair, the state of the game is a free for all battle with hardly anything tactical about it, much less formations.  So 1 handers and 2 handers complaining lancers are OP, no SHIT, it's what happened in REALITY.  Stay close to polearms or go and do your free for all and stop whining.  But why are you even whining, my crossbow character had a 2h as a secondary weapon and as shitty as I play all around, it is easier killing a charging lancer with my utter lack of skill with a 2h than it is to kill a 2h with my lack of skill with a lance.  Thus I am impressed upon sincerely, that the ones complaining about lancers are utter bundle of stickss.

Game balance should be controlled by upkeep and thus equipment costs, not determined with class vs. class bitching and whining.  How any infantry without a pike or polearm can whine about lancers given the current state of the game and cost of horse is beyond belief.  50% of us are below average players, and I know those who are complaining about lancers here are the guys who are having trouble with the half-dozen lancers at the top of the list who are awesome, and not the rest of us they skewer with a 2 hander the rest of the time.

CSA_Stonewallis
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Smoothrich on July 10, 2012, 10:49:38 pm
Quote from: Stonewallis on July 10, 2012, 10:39:54 pm
As a perpetually low tier, part-time player who sucks in melee and thus relies on lancer cav or crossbow each generation or respec, I'd like to say that if this concern over gameplay balance was ignored by the modders and reality was adhered too, people would adjust.  Lets be fair, the state of the game is a free for all battle with hardly anything tactical about it, much less formations.  So 1 handers and 2 handers complaining lancers are OP, no SHIT, it's what happened in REALITY.  Stay close to polearms or go and do your free for all and stop whining.  But why are you even whining, my crossbow character had a 2h as a secondary weapon and as shitty as I play all around, it is easier killing a charging lancer with my utter lack of skill with a 2h than it is to kill a 2h with my lack of skill with a lance.  Thus I am impressed upon sincerely, that the ones complaining about lancers are utter bundle of stickss.

Game balance should be controlled by upkeep and thus equipment costs, not determined with class vs. class bitching and whining.  How any infantry without a pike or polearm can whine about lancers given the current state of the game and cost of horse is beyond belief.  50% of us are below average players, and I know those who are complaining about lancers here are the guys who are having trouble with the half-dozen lancers at the top of the list who are awesome, and not the rest of us they skewer with a 2 hander the rest of the time.

CSA_Stonewallis

Nope, I'm a pretty damn good cavalry player, EU cav tournament champion (with NA ping) in fact, and I think the class does a broken amount of damage.  I only play 2hander on my main (where I can almost always kill any cav lancer coming at me with big jukes and greatsword thrusts), but since they added transfer looms to alts, every few weeks I make a pure cav alt with a champ desti and mw heavy lance, go 30-3 or so on 1-2 maps, shake my head at how OP cav is and never play the class again.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: OpenPalm on July 10, 2012, 11:08:29 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on July 10, 2012, 10:49:38 pm
Nope, I'm a pretty damn good cavalry player, EU cav tournament champion (with NA ping) in fact, and I think the class does a broken amount of damage.  I only play 2hander on my main (where I can almost always kill any cav lancer coming at me with big jukes and greatsword thrusts), but since they added transfer looms to alts, every few weeks I make a pure cav alt with a champ desti and mw heavy lance, go 30-3 or so on 1-2 maps, shake my head at how OP cav is and never play the class again.

So one of the best cav does well in battle when he has mw items... news flash.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: BlueKnight on July 10, 2012, 11:31:59 pm
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I admire your will of proving that you are right lol. I would just say "fuck renegat". Your answers are well-thought and I agree with almost everything if not everything. Sometimes as a cav I used to go infantry because I didn't want that giant upkeep and wanted to kill easier. You control things more when you are on foot. Also Renegat about your "new life when dismounted"... Usually that life ends after 2 seconds when they rape you on the ground lol.... Damn 60+ armour is useless then. There are also many obstacles and even a randomly running rouncey can stop you, you will rear up and be fucked. on Arabian things are easier but not every player wants to sacrifice his athetics to 1 more riding especially that that horse might not even reach the enemies....

Also cav is meant to be played when there are lots of cav. Cav uses unawarness of the players, so the more cav, the more chaos, the more powerful cav is during the battle. That's why always when like 10 GK come and make clear battle a mess, it is easier for them to kill. You need to remember that 1 cav can bump the target while trying to attack him and second cav (just following) might finish the enemy. That's cavs' teamwork and it shouldn't be nerfed. It's like when you have 2 archers and a shielder. If archers aren't brainless newcomers, then they will probably beat that shielder.

TLDR incoming... I sense it.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: BlueKnight on July 10, 2012, 11:33:54 pm
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Also I remember a lot of people surviving couches ( me included and not even mentioning h. lance attacks...) Sometimes I felt sorry to the cav that hit me and did only 40% loss of HP... Poor riskers

EDIT: I made a mistake and pressed quote not modify so I have posted double post. Sry

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Maybe NA lacks awarness?
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Bulzur on July 11, 2012, 12:50:39 am
For the fun, and to know what was all the fuss about, i took my dear polearm alt :

Guard_Leyla, was a longspear user 18/21, and i had fun with it. Then it struck me, why being passive, having to always watch for my back, when i can be the one irritating people. Oh, and i can't buy HP with an alt, so let's use all this money.
So Guard_Leyla retired (+2 longspear, hourra) and made a 18/18 build at level 30 :
6 riding, 6 athletic, 6 PS, 5 WM, 6 IF. And guess what, i can still be a pretty good longspear support on any map (seriously, 1 WM and 1 ATH is not much of a difference)  AND i can use a destrier.

Now i only ever played one gen of cav. Yet, every 3 maps, i'm topping the scoreboard between GKs. I didn't ever bother reading guides or whatever, just spectated good cavs.
And yes, i'm usefull : i never spawnrape (destrier unheirloomed is too slow, and i'm like Torben, i despise spawnrapers), i mainly kill range, i do a shit load of bumps.
And most of the times, i die stupidly to a thrower, an xbow, another cav (Musashi is mean), and... that's all.

And i'll add this to you : I'm a bad player. I am only a decent blocker, i don't have the good patience of a good cav, and i miss 3/4th of my couches (practice makes perfect, but i only couch once per map, so not a lot of opportunities to practice). Yet, i can kill bagge, i can bump Tor, etc... all thoses things i couldn't dream of doing as a longspear user. What is the downside ? Upkeep. And ? That's all.

At this time, after playing for nearly a year, after having seen GK playing 3/4th of their time on horses, i can tell you upkeep is in no way a good mean of balancing a cav. Cav is skilless currently, and any noob can stab an archer in the face from behind, just after he moved, while going at high speed. You get dehorsed by range from far away, grab your 2slot backup melee weapon that NO longspear user could afford anyway, and continue wreaking havoc. Did that plenty of times. It's ridiculous.

Awareness ? How do you expect an archer to shoot if he looks behind him ?


I pretty much agree with Renegat on most of the "facts".
Though i believe a little "nerf" like fall damage would be enough to satisfy the infantry.

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EDIT :

Quote from: ThePoopy on July 01, 2012, 09:06:00 pm
cav sucks, the problem is same as with ranged, they can't won't kill eachother untill they really have to cus it's to big risk.
this leads to both rapin infantry every round and that's why everybody hates you guys :P

- increase lance radius so good cav can kill bad cav without risk
- increase lance speed (or just decrease sweetspot somehow) it's way to easy to hit targets with this 1 sec long attack (this goes for all wepons tho)

Totally disagree with the comparaison :

cav vs cav : 1 cav dies, the other survives full health. That's how it is usually, but it's rare.
range vs range : range HATES range, and will prioritize shooting them, always (unlike cavs who like to go for no-risk targets). Problem is, at long range, it's soooo easy to dodge expected arrows. So, after 4-6 arrows shot, they change target. They CANT kill each other.
The only way they can, is when they take risks flanking to get closer on the side, or sticking to infantry, or being in medium distance when you can't react to "feint" shots.

To compare cav with range was silly, and that's why i pointed it out.
Also, cav vs cav duels. They're all alone on a side of the map.
range vs range duels. You can bet one of them will be backstabbed by a cav, or have to run away from inf.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Osiris on July 11, 2012, 02:02:56 am
cav is the single easiest class to play. i made a stf alt with an arabian and its just crazy how many kills you get. my crowning glory i think must have been when i couched a GK who had just spanwed off his horse JUSTICE!
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 11, 2012, 02:16:42 am
Quote from: Osiris on July 11, 2012, 02:02:56 am
cav is the single easiest class to play. i made a stf alt with an arabian and its just crazy how many kills you get. my crowning glory i think must have been when i couched a GK who had just spanwed off his horse JUSTICE!

Try using a real horse not a fairy kthnxbai
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Osiris on July 11, 2012, 02:21:49 am
you seem to think thats the only horse ive ever ridden :D my biggest scores were while riding a champion rouncey as a 1h. it is the easiest class if you cant see that then well there is no hope for you
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 11, 2012, 02:24:01 am
Quote from: Osiris on July 11, 2012, 02:21:49 am
you seem to think thats the only horse ive ever ridden :D my biggest scores were while riding a champion rouncey as a 1h. it is the easiest class if you cant see that then well there is no hope for you

Didn't say it was an easy class or not, just said you need to ride a real horse not a fairy  :wink:
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Osiris on July 11, 2012, 02:25:13 am
im not here to ask for cav changes :D just to say its so damn easy. cav should be the most powerful class. the only problem is when one team gets the majority of cav.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 11, 2012, 02:30:48 am
Quote from: Osiris on July 11, 2012, 02:25:13 am
im not here to ask for cav changes :D just to say its so damn easy. cav should be the most powerful class. the only problem is when one team gets the majority of cav.

I agree there, that when one team is cav stacked it is unfair but the same can be said when one team is range stacked, I'm not going to ask for changes NOR a buff. Personally now days I just accept the changes to cav, sure ill bitch about it for a while but I just accept it, Iv been playing cav since gen 2 so I have a fair amount of experience with the class as I'm sure tommy and Chagan do to.

I will say one thing though and baring In mind I have an alt for every class but HA, but personally I find being a 2her easier then cav but thats just me.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: San on July 12, 2012, 02:16:40 am
Cav simply gives you more options. Even medium skill cav like me can get a few kills on horse and then a few more on ground each round. It helps supplement my infantry game. There are not enough downsides to being dehorsed, especially from ranged. There were times when I simply got off my horse to beat an opponent that would have been much tougher on horse like a pikeman or a small group of ranged.

I do concede a little on what I used to say about cav vs infantry. 1v1 can be a huge pain for infantry, but heavy lance is a bit predictable. I think the regular lance is easier against most infantry and that's what I based a lot of my previous experiences around. I found heavy lance easier against stabby polearms (and much easier to couch), and regular lance better against every other infantry. I think anyone finding cav hard should try other lances like the regular lance or light lance to see what's good for them.

I think cav should go faster before knocking down someone, so that they have to choose between stabbing or knocking down an actively dodging opponent (among other obvious things like damage when dehorsed). It feels more rewarding to knock someone down as slow as possible instead of top speed, so you can turn into them easily.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Gricks on July 12, 2012, 10:08:50 am
Quote from: san. on July 12, 2012, 02:16:40 am
Cav simply gives you more options. Even medium skill cav like me can get a few kills on horse and then a few more on ground each round. It helps supplement my infantry game. There are not enough downsides to being dehorsed, especially from ranged. There were times when I simply got off my horse to beat an opponent that would have been much tougher on horse like a pikeman or a small group of ranged.

I do concede a little on what I used to say about cav vs infantry. 1v1 can be a huge pain for infantry, but heavy lance is a bit predictable. I think the regular lance is easier against most infantry and that's what I based a lot of my previous experiences around. I found heavy lance easier against stabby polearms (and much easier to couch), and regular lance better against every other infantry. I think anyone finding cav hard should try other lances like the regular lance or light lance to see what's good for them.

I think cav should go faster before knocking down someone, so that they have to choose between stabbing or knocking down an actively dodging opponent (among other obvious things like damage when dehorsed). It feels more rewarding to knock someone down as slow as possible instead of top speed, so you can turn into them easily.

Yeah, I hate when you do that against me on my pikeman.

But, back on topic. Right now a cavalry player is just as effective as any other infantry after he has been dehorsed. I think that is the main issue really.

A horse effectively gives a cav player 2 lives. Clearly a team with more cav players is going to win most of the time. Ranged and pikeman focus on the horse and a lot of the time the cav player is up before anyone can hit him (not to mention that aggravating bug when the dismounted rider isn't actually where you see him).

Now, as a pikeman, I'm fighting someone who has an advantage over me (if it is a duel). I either run away, pull some jump stab shenanigans, or die. Usually resulting in the cav player beginning his 2nd life.

Oh, and of course the tiny cavalry shields that give cavalry some sort of magical bubble of protection over their entire horse.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Vkvkvk on July 12, 2012, 10:17:49 am
Quote from: Gricks on July 12, 2012, 10:08:50 am
Yeah, I hate when you do that against me on my pikeman.

But, back on topic. Right now a cavalry player is just as effective as any other infantry after he has been dehorsed. I think that is the main issue really.

A horse effectively gives a cav player 2 lives. Clearly a team with more cav players is going to win most of the time. Ranged and pikeman focus on the horse and a lot of the time the cav player is up before anyone can hit him (not to mention that aggravating bug when the dismounted rider isn't actually where you see him).

Now, as a pikeman, I'm fighting someone who has an advantage over me (if it is a duel). I either run away, pull some jump stab shenanigans, or die. Usually resulting in the cav player beginning his 2nd life.

Forgot to mention that they can whistle and get a 3rd life and possibly more with the ease of only pressing 3 buttons.

They're like cats and their nine lives.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: bruce on July 12, 2012, 01:19:36 pm
Two lives, but then you can whistle and get more horses, it doesn't compute. Are infantrymen dismounting to provide cavalrymen with extra horses? I don't understand.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Bjord on July 12, 2012, 01:31:53 pm
Quote from: Chasey on July 02, 2012, 02:02:07 pm
I rarely die from cav...

Maybe because you use a long spear?

 :lol:

Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Tovi on July 12, 2012, 02:39:22 pm
Historicaly, lance cavalry had a good chance to break after a shock. That's why knights need someone to carry 2 or 3 more lances.
We may simulate this by a 50% factor to break. That way you won't get the chance to break your lance on a poor peasant...
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: HarunYahya on July 13, 2012, 02:06:24 am
Quote from: Angellore on July 01, 2012, 02:46:31 pm
Note: This text is very long, if you don’t want to read it, just don’t do that. But please stay away from this topic then, don’t post here, don’t troll here. I wrote this only for people who are interested in subject, if you are not, then just stay away.
English isn’t my native language, I know it from school only, but last English classes I had many years ago, so sorry in advance for any language mistakes.

Many people wrote a lot of things about cav recently. Unfortunately, most of their claims are lies. You can read opinions how easy mode lancer cav is, how good every newbie is as cav and how hard infantry life is with horseman around. Most of those people are of course cav experts, because “they played lancer for 5 minutes with their alts and they made 20:0 K/D ratio at lvl 10 with 0 PS, thanks to couching”. So I decided to write my feelings, how it is to be lancer cav, because with all those lies on forum, it’s really easy to get confused for people who never played this class longer than few days.

I’ll start from myself. I played almost every class in cRPG. I played a lot as archer, then few months as crossbowman, few months as infantry (many 2h swords, german poleaxe, great long axe, long war axe), another 2 months as mauler, I also checked thrower and 1h cav. I’m playing lancer cav for about 3 months here in cRPG. I also played as lancer in WFAS mod quite often, but there lances are 3.2 meters long (same as longest pikes), so you can’t really compare those 2 gameplays (in cRPG longest playable lance has 1.9 m). Yes, there are longer non-trustable lances here in cRPG, but they are basically useless for pure lancer.
I’m using heavy gear (Coat of Plates +3, Plate Mittens +3, Plate Boots +3, Sallet with Visor and Coif +3), so I’m very well protected (63 head armor, 68 body armor, 64 leg armor). My current horse is Destrier +3. As main weapon I’m using Heavy Lance +3, as secondary weapon (on the ground) Long War Axe +3. My max upkeep is 5644 gold, which is a lot, I’m losing about 10-20k gold for every hour of playing (but all depends here from my multi and luck). Even with x5 multi I don’t gain any money, so this class is costly, at least with heavy gear I’m using. You can ask why I’m using such a heavy gear. The answer is simple – I don’t want to be 1 hit-killed from ranged. With Light Kuyak +3 (which I used before), arbalester could kill me from just 1 bolt, thanks to speed of riding. And that’s something most people forgets. Many people who tests how hard is to kill a horse/rider forgets about speed factor. Horses aren’t stationary targets, you shouldn’t test anything this way!

From my experience, Destrier +3 charging target at full speed, close range, dies from:
- 1-2 bolts into head (1 bolt takes about 85-100% of its hp) – Arbalest +3, Steel Bolts +3
- 2-3 bolts into body (3 most of the time, but 2 bolts won’t leave much hp of the horse) – Arbalest +3, Steel Bolts +3
- 2-3 arrows into head (2 most of the time) – Long Bow/Rus Bow +3, Bodkin Arrows +3
- 4-5 arrows into body – Long Bow/Rus Bow +3, Bodkin Arrows +3
Destrier is average armored horse with quite a lot of HP. I played with Courser +3 and Arabian Warhorse +3 earlier, but it was much easier to kill them for enemy. Even from greater distance, just one bolt to their head, sometimes even one arrow was enough. That’s why I don’t play them anymore, it’s too easy to lose those horses. And if you lose your horse, most of the time you are dead, because very often you ends up alone near big group of enemies.

In cRPG lancer isn’t, like many people thinks, tanker who fears nothing except pikes. It’s not even close to that. Lancer is more like backstabbing class. You can kill unaware enemies from behind, and that’s where you are making most of your kills. About 75% of my kills are done this way. Another 25% are aware peasants, other horseman, aware ranged, and then aware infantry. Because of riding speed, cavalry takes down easiest targets after battle starts, that’s how you can make a lot of kills and make good K/D ratio (my current K/D ratio is 3.5:1, but this is reskilled char, so I didn’t have to level it). When you meet peasant on your way, you can even bump him to death. Some people says it’s lame to do that, but I saw many times few fully armored infantry chasing down peasant for few hundred meters and when they finally caught him, they starts to spam swings, often wounding themselves just to kill that peasant - somehow, this is completely fine in infantry minds. For me kill is kill. If I have a choice to couch unaware peasant or other unaware target, I’ll always choose the other target. But I don’t see a reason to abandon easy to kill targets (peasants) and leave them for others.
Like I said before, cav are backstabbers in cRPG. It’s not because cav is lazy, they are forced to do that because of how cRPG works. In fact lancer is weak class, which has low chances to kill aware opponent. That’s why hunting down unaware targets, which are close to no threat for you, perfectly makes sense here. Because of horse speed, we can choose our next target, leave harder ones and attack easiest. The “problem” is, when we kill easiest targets (make plenty of kills that way), infantry see cav topping scoreboard and starts to cry how OP cav is. You really shouldn’t judge class strength this way. If cav kills almost all peasants every round, it gives them few kills more in stats, and same time takes those easy kills from others.

Many people will ask then, how easy is to kill aware opponent for lancer? Well, it’s in fact very, very hard thing to do if the target won’t make any mistakes. There are 2 tricks which can help you to kill aware targets:
Trick1: you can force ready to strike opponent to release left mouse button too early/too late by controlling your horse speed, Arabian Warhorse is far best horse to use this trick. Other horses I tried feels a bit too “heavy” to benefit from this trick.
Trick2: you can try to hit enemy at max possible lance angle, turning just in front of him, but this is very risky (you need to be millimeter precise) and it works mainly with standing targets (or moving forward, but it’s harder to get it right even then). If you miss your target this way because you turned too fast and have now too little lance angle (very, very often it ends up like that), enemy will most of the time hit your horse to the side/back, but you can ride away. If you turn too late, then enemy will hit your horse’s head and stop it (or deal huge damage to it). Then you are basically screwed, so it’s always better to turn a bit quicker and miss than too late and die. This trick needs perfect timing and even then don’t guarantee success.

Killing peasant: you need to watch peasant weapon here. If he uses Pitchfork or Scythe, he can still wound/kill your horse easily, no matter he is a peasant! But even if he uses one of those weapons, you can try using Trick2 here. If you turn too late and he stops your horse, you can still kill him with your lance. Peasant is a target always worth a risk (you won’t find aware opponent which is easier to kill than a peasant). If peasant uses some 1h weapon, I’m charging it straight away with regular lance attack ready. But you can kill peasant even with 1-2 bumps, you don’t really need to lance him.
My advice: Charge!

Killing horse lancer: I can say obvious thing here. It’s risky! In my opinion too risky to do it after game starts. Hits are based by what server sees, not what you sees, so because of closing horses speed, sometimes I see I did everything perfectly, but server says that enemy just killed me, which is a bit depressing. I can still kill more lancers than I dies this way, but even with 60:40 ratio, it’s just too risky for me. So I’m trying to avoid other lancers, especially at the beginning of the round. I have plenty easier targets on the ground to take care of in this time.
My advice: Avoid if you can!

Killing 1h horseman: you need to use couch here and take down their horses. If they are aware of you and manage to stop your horse, there is nothing you can do. In close combat you are sitting duck for them! You can block their swings, but they will still hit your horse and eventually kill it through your blocks. They can sometimes kill your horse from just one Arabian Cavalry Sword’s swing to your horse’s head. Because of their shields forcefield, you can’t kill them from frontal attack or from the side. Sometimes those shields can even protect them from a lance into their back, which is a just silly. It’s better to avoid them if they are aware of you, if not, use couch and try to hit horse from side. In worst case scenario you will destroy their shield, but should be able to run away. Regular lance attack will most likely end up at their shield, making them no harm at all. Fortunately there are not that many good 1h cav (at least on EU servers). You can try to attack aware 1h cav which uses low turning speed horses, but avoid Arabian Warhorses! They turns too quickly, you won’t be able to ride away before they hit you back.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing pikeman/long spearman: basically impossible. I managed to kill few of them only because they didn’t release left mouse button in time. This is the only way to kill them, their own, huge mistake. Surprisingly, they don’t do much damage to horses most of the time. You can sometimes lose just 1/3rd of your horse hp by being stopped by pikeman, and then just ride away (many depends here from yours and pikeman position). You have to avoid them of course, especially if they have some regular infantry near them – pikeman will stop your horse, and regular infantry will finish you quickly.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing short spear/lancer on the ground: very hard to do. It’s possible, but target need to release left mouse button too soon (and bounce or miss) or too late. You can use here Trick1 and Trick2, but it’s very risky stuff which will almost always end up with your death, especially if enemy jump while making attack. It’s just no sense to risk if the guy isn’t last man standing.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing 2h swordsman: it’s very similar to killing short spear/lancer on the ground, very hard to do. But in fact, two handed swords are even more deadly (because of damage they deal and their thrust range). If 2h swordsman is standing still or moving forward, you can try to use Trick2, but most of them jumps/move sideways. Then I assure you, almost always you won’t be able to react/predict things right and you will easily die. So, it’s possible to kill 2h swordsman (at least stationary ones), but there is little chance to do everything exactly right, and you still need a lot of luck – better avoid them as much as you can. I can’t really understand how 2h swordsman can be more deadly to horses than even pikeman.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing poleaxe user: surprisingly (or maybe not?), it’s easier to kill poleaxe user who tries to stab than 2h swordsman. Their weapons has shorter stabs, so you can use Trick2 with a bit higher success rate (you can be slightly less precise with timing and still win). Unfortunately, they can also jump to the side and attack opposite direction same time, and because of weapon length and it’s damage, this attack can be deadly. Similar as with 2h swordsman, if poleaxe player jump, you probably won’t be able to react/predict things right and you will die. That’s why it’s very risky and not worth trying to kill poleaxe user if you have other (easier or unaware) targets alive.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing axe user/mauler (no thrust weapon user): it’s risky, as he can jump to side and make opposite swing same time, but you can use your horse as weapon and increase your chances. If you guess right the side of his jump, you can kill him, if you was close to guess you will most likely bump him. If you won’t bump or hit him, you are most likely dead (those weapons are deadly with 47-48 damage and speed bonus from your horse). It’s so much easier here to kill heavy armored targets (like maulers). I often risk couch when I see heavy armor + non thrusting weapon. If target has light armor, it’s better to leave it. Especially couching light armored target will almost always be deadly for rider, even if his weapon don’t have thrust attack.
My advice: Charge only heavily armored ones!

Killing 1h shielder: very similar to killing non thrustable weapon user, but it has a bit less risk involved (shorter weapons than axes). You need to get ready for your target jump to the side and make attack from opposite direction (they do that most of the time). And again you have to choose side right. If you won’t guess right, you can die here. He can also use thrust, so it’s better not to charge him directly with your horse. If you charge in right way, shielder most of the time won’t be able to thrust your horse’s head. It’s easier for shielder to kill you by jump/sidewalk and make swing same time, that’s the thing you need to be aware of. If they just jump and block with their shields, I’m often trying to couch them and break their shield in next attack. But because of jumping height and sidewalking speed, couching is always much more risky to try, even against shielder.
My advice: Charge mainly heavily armored ones!

Killing crossbowman: if crossbowman is aware of you, it’s better to just leave him alone. If you decide to charge him, you need to wave your horse a bit and try to force his mistake. If he miss you, you will most likely kill him. If he hit your horse’s head, horse will probably die (if not, you will probably kill crossbowman), if he hit you, your attack will be cancelled, and you will lose most of your hp (or if you use light armor, you will be dead, because of speed of the horse). It’s risky stuff, more time you give for crossbowman to aim you, more likely you will lose this little battle. If I want to attack some crossbowman, I’m always waiting for him to shoot other target, then I can charge during his reloading time. They most of the time will spot me then (they are checking terrain while reloading), so they will try to change weapon to melee – that’s why it’s worth to try couched attack here. Even if they change weapon, you can still kill them through their block (if you only guess their jumping side right). Everything depends here from distance and moment when crossbowman spot you.
My advice: Avoid!

Killing archer: it’s sometimes easier than killing crossbowman. Archer has advantage in rate of fire, but he won’t be able to kill your horse with just 1 arrow, and can’t hold his bow ready to shot forever. You need to be ready to take at least 2 arrows into yourself/your horse (hopefully not your or your horse’s head). That means, it’s no sense to attack archer if you, or especially your horse has low hp. With latest horses maneuver nerf, you won’t be able to do much in close combat with archer (archer moves faster than your horse turns at the moment). Maybe Arabian Warhorse would still be good enough in this kind of fight, I don’t know, I sold my Arabian Warhorse +3 long time ago. I only know, Destrier is now too slow in turning speed to kill experienced archer this way (you could do that easily before horses turning nerf). The problem is, because of instantly changing direction of running, sidewalking, jumping (every problem cRPG physics has), archers will most likely just jump to the side to avoid your horse and start shooting at it again. I’m quite good in guessing their jump direction (I’m lucky I should say), so many targets I kill are archers. But for every attack on aware archer, you have to pay with some of your and your horse’s hp. It’s always costly to attack archers.
My advice: Avoid those with Long Bows/Rus Bows! Charge the other!

Killing throwers: aware high PT thrower means death for you and your horse. High PT thrower can kill your horse very easily, from just 1 head hit. And when they throw their axe/javelin/lance, another one magically appears in their hand to repeat the attack straight away. It’s just suicide to attack them, avoid even if they look in opposite direction! You can however attack low PT throwers, they aren’t much of a threat. After some time of playing, I can recognize players (by their armors), so more or less I know which throwers I have to avoid like a fire (I learned it hard way). Fortunately, there aren’t many high PT throwers in game currently.
My advice: Avoid high PT throwers! Charge low PT throwers!

Killing horse archers/horse crossbowmans: terrible! I can’t understand why horse archers has same maneuver as other horsemans (they should have decreased maneuver drastically, especially when they are shooting and riding same time). Because of that you will most likely end up with your horse full of arrows. Maybe they don’t do much damage, but they can still kill your horse with 6-8 arrows (or 3-4 into your horse’s head), and you won’t be able to do anything to avoid them. It’s worst thing to have horse archer on your back and no possible help from your team. You can kill horse archer only when he uses horse +0 (has maneuver and speed disadvantage) or if he make mistake and judge things wrong. But before he do that, your horse will have no hp anyway. It’s better to avoid aware horse archers as much as you can. Horse crossbowmans are easier targets (mainly due to reloading time), but it’s still better not to attack aware ones, especially if they use Arabian Warhorses +3 or Coursers +3. They can ride away pretty easily, and you don’t really want to play chasing game with them, since they can hit you from range and not slow down even a bit.
My advice: Avoid!

It will be even harder to kill anyone, who stands on little hill or terrain around him isn’t completely flat. You will have big problem to predict speed of your horse, and since you have to release Heavy Lance sooner (Heavy Lance attack speed is very slow), you can completely miss the enemy. It’s better to avoid aware enemies standing on changeable terrain.

So, it’s not that easy to kill aware opponent. In fact you have more chances than the enemy only while killing aware peasants and low athletics, heavily armored shielders. With axemans and great maulers (only slow ones, with heavy armor) chances are pretty even, maybe just slightly higher for horseman. That’s why you will end up most of the time backstabbing unaware opponents. If infantry want to get rid of backstabbing, then make horses actually smash every infantry easily (except pikemans). But right now backstabbing is only option to get kills, and no matter what you think, backstabbing is funny. I’m all the time trying to plan my attacks carefully, sometimes it don’t go well, but most of the time I can kill 1-2 people from behind and disappears quickly. It makes me happy and I don’t really understand infantry whining and offending cav players all the time about that. Just think about every infantry who kills someone from behind / from side / in group (by being unfair). Those things happens all the time in cRPG, infantry do this all day long, it’s a battle after all, not duel. So how can cav backstabbing be different than infantry ones? Cav is forced to play like that much more often, choosing weakest targets, attacking from behind. I know couch from behind is annoying, but you can use tilde key (~) to prevent that, it’s so amazing key – maybe you should just use it more often? Or maybe don’t, because then lancer will be able to kill only peasants (pretty easily only those without pitchfork and scythe in their hands).

Cav is also a class which is very dependent from map itself. Many maps are almost completely unplayable for cav (towns with little corridors). Huge, open space maps aren’t best for cav either (it’s hard to do backstabbing job there, you are clearly visible for everyone from huge distance). Big hills makes cav useless, houses where ranged can go at are deadly for cav. It’s the only class which is affected by terrain that much, it’s just huge disadvantage for cav. Even little, but steep hill will cause horse to almost completely stop on it.

And you can’t forget horse is such a huge target for ranged. You can predict horse path pretty well, since horses can’t change movement direction like infantry (sidewalking and changing direction of movement in the blink of an eye to avoid ranged is normal thing for infantry, horses can’t do this).

Lance damage was nerfed so many times, right now at full speed of Destrier +3, regular Heavy Lance attack sometimes don’t kill even low armored archer by 1 hit. Couching is the best way to kill your target (9/10 couches kills enemy instantly), but same time it’s much more risky than regular attack. Even unaware opponent can move slightly just before your attack and you can miss him with couch, you need to be so precise with your horse positioning while couching. Killing aware opponent with couch often means suicide. Couching attack has much shorter length than regular one, so enemy will most likely outreach you easily. But sometimes it’s the only way to kill your enemy, since regular attack can be blocked with simple holding downblock. No matter what speed you riding at and what part of enemy you aim (head, body, legs), your regular attack can always be very easily blocked or easily chambered.

What could be better in my opinion?
For me, the most annoying and unpredictable thing is jumping. Jumping and attacking same time makes no sense, it has no logic at all. Players can jump 1 meter up and about 1.5 meters to one side in any moment they want, and still same time they make attack with its full power. Like side walking wasn’t already broken, they can jump like a monkeys in cRPG too. It’s just completely broken mechanism. You should be able to jump only about 20 cm up and about 50 cm to the side unarmored, of course no jumping at all with heavy armor. When you jump, you shouldn’t be able to make attack same time. Then seeing jumping people won’t make you feel like we are playing some space monkeys multi-tasking game.

Pikes should be much more deadly to horses in cRPG. Pikemans aren’t much of a threat in terms of damage they deal to horses, they only have range. If pike stop your horse riding straight into it at full speed, it should kill the horse instantly. Right now pikes are more effective killing people on the ground than horses. I see no logic in that, pikes should do very heavy damage to horses, it should be the best anti-horses weapon. Right now even if I make a mistake and pikeman stop my horse, I’ll just turn a little and move the other direction with half horse’s hp left (sometimes even more, depending from horse speed). At the moment it’s so much better to be stopped by pikeman than poleaxer or especially hit by 2h swordsman (this one is deadly). I would love to see pikemans as proper horse killers, and regular infantry as easy targets for cav.
But I’m sure, infantry would whine then even more. I don’t really understand why they cry now. Most of them have huge advantage fighting lancer already, they just need to be aware of him. It’s not true without pikes they can’t do anything against cav. Pikes are good weapons only to stop horses. Many other weapons are much better to actually kill horses and/or their riders.
Yes.
I couldn't resist quoting that. :3
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Angellore on July 13, 2012, 02:27:19 pm
Quote from: koyama on July 13, 2012, 02:06:24 am
I couldn't resist quoting that. :3

My first post shows how I feel playing lancer, something people won't understand without playing this class for at least few months to see its strengths and weaknesses. Everyone just talks about main strength of lancers, which is killing unaware people easily. I tried to change this kind of thinking with this topic, but I see now I failed massively. This topic turned into discussion to nerf cav and another claims (mainly by infantry) how easy it is to be a lancer.

Some people just don't care about the truth, they knows everything better. For me, it’s pretty funny that people who never played cav (at least no longer than few days), talks as cav experts on this forum and wants to "balance" cav. It’s something I can’t really understand.

I played almost every class in this game, and I think everyone should do that. I'm not talking about few days of playing, I’m talking about 2-3 generations. It really helps you to understand classes, their advantages and disadvantages. This is long and hard way, but it will definitely make you better player.

Before lancer I played about 2 months as Full Plate Great Mauler, which is one of the easiest targets for lancer (very slow, predictable), and I never cried about cav. But back then many people cried about maulers (how easily I top scoreboard with this class and how unskilled it is). I saw here dozens of topics to nerf mauls, but there were few people who didn't cry. Dalhi was one of them, he knew how to fight me, he could kill me much more often that I could kill him. Instead of crying, he decided to learn to fight mauler, and he did that brilliantly. There is easy way to beat Full Plate Great Mauler, but almost all players preferred to cry for nerf instead of learning it. And now it's similar with cav - it's easier to cry for nerf on the forum then use tilde key. You should be thankful for having such a wonderful and unrealistic key, but instead you… don’t use it.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on July 13, 2012, 09:54:35 pm
Quote from: Angellore on July 13, 2012, 02:27:19 pm
My first post shows how I feel playing lancer, something people won't understand without playing this class for at least few months to see its strengths and weaknesses. Everyone just talks about main strength of lancers, which is killing unaware people easily. I tried to change this kind of thinking with this topic, but I see now I failed massively. This topic turned into discussion to nerf cav and another claims (mainly by infantry) how easy it is to be a lancer.

Some people just don't care about the truth, they knows everything better. For me, it’s pretty funny that people who never played cav (at least no longer than few days), talks as cav experts on this forum and wants to "balance" cav. It’s something I can’t really understand.

I played almost every class in this game, and I think everyone should do that. I'm not talking about few days of playing, I’m talking about 2-3 generations. It really helps you to understand classes, their advantages and disadvantages. This is long and hard way, but it will definitely make you better player.



what makes me laugh is that although this make sense, the amount of inf players who will claim "I played cav more then a few days" meaning a week or two yet they still don't get it, seriously if people actually played every class for a few gens the amount of nerfs that go around would be reduced by a good amount. But lets face facts no matter how much sense you make people will just say "I know what im talking about I did it.....once......for a little while..." and nothing will change sadly  :?


Quote from: Gricks on July 12, 2012, 10:08:50 am
Yeah, I hate when you do that against me on my pikeman.

But, back on topic. Right now a cavalry player is just as effective as any other infantry after he has been dehorsed. I think that is the main issue really.

A horse effectively gives a cav player 2 lives. Clearly a team with more cav players is going to win most of the time. Ranged and pikeman focus on the horse and a lot of the time the cav player is up before anyone can hit him (not to mention that aggravating bug when the dismounted rider isn't actually where you see him).

Now, as a pikeman, I'm fighting someone who has an advantage over me (if it is a duel). I either run away, pull some jump stab shenanigans, or die. Usually resulting in the cav player beginning his 2nd life.

Oh, and of course the tiny cavalry shields that give cavalry some sort of magical bubble of protection over their entire horse.

1) Just because someone rides a horse doesn't mean that they should suck on foot, there are plenty of cav players that practice on foot and have inf alts so how its a problem that if I lose my horse and am a fairly good inf how that's the "main issue" on how cavs unbalanced

2) there have been plenty of times were I have been dehorsed and killed before Iv even gone to stand thanks to "gang bangs" other times yes I stand up and fight, the bug were you look like you slide forward but don't Ill agree that must be annoying as hell. But when our horses die its not exactly like we have died and spawned again..... chances are that before they were dehorsed they had been shot and stabbed by other people so I doubt their on full health.

3) If you play a pikeman why the hell are you dueling people?!?!? yeah if its a cav fair enough I guess but at the end of the day your a SUPPORT class not a head on fighter, your job should be to keep enemy cav at bay and to poke and harass the enemy inf while your own inf fight them. Also if you are dueling a horseman, quick question......WHY THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO RUN YOU HAVE A PIKE NO SANE CAV IS GOING NEAR YOU! (sry caps  :lol: ) second if you do dehorse him then, and bearing in mind iv seen pikers do this you jump and stab them then pull out your secondary weapon just like they will? using a pike to fight normal inf is just stupid (no offense)

4) yeah the fact that cavs shields cover most of the horse is total bs and iv had it before were I have stabbed a cav in the back yet he still blocked it because he was slightly turned towards me, that really needs to be sorted out
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: Macropus on July 13, 2012, 09:56:59 pm
Most people who think cavalry is imbalanced are totally missing the fact that... cavalry sucks at sieges.
Really, why dont you expect cavs to be slightly overpowered in battlefields (which is quite logically, isn't it?) because infantry is comparingly overpowered in sieges?
The game balance should include the whole thing, not just battles or just sieges. And from that point of view the game seems quite balanced to me.
PS: turned cav this generation and I don't think it is "easymode", my k/d rate is pretty much the same as before, being an infantry.
Title: Re: Facts and myths about Lancer cav
Post by: San on July 13, 2012, 10:02:41 pm
You can ride to the ladder / back of a castle really quickly, and then melee with a non-gimped build just fine.

Some maps on defense has some space to lance as cav, too, where you won't see many pikemen.


I just feel like there's no reason not to dump points into riding once you reach a higher level.