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cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rheinhardt on July 01, 2012, 04:17:57 am

Title: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 01, 2012, 04:17:57 am
Has anyone else noticed NA servers consist of thirty rambos per side running pell-mell through the map with no awareness to their own team or favorable terrain to fight on? Or is this just me?
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Miracle on July 01, 2012, 04:32:16 am
Nope.  I guess no one ever noticed before.  Thank you so much for pointing out this remarkable discovery.  A+++ would read again.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: bilwit on July 01, 2012, 04:35:56 am
That's why it's a public server and not an organized strategus/clan match.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 01, 2012, 04:41:58 am
Its so strange. You'd think people would be more interested in their multipler, brought about by winning, brought about by teamwork, than they might be in their K/D, brought about by winning lopsided duels. Is there an explaination for this pursuit of self interest, wrongly understood?
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: MrShine on July 01, 2012, 04:46:20 am
Has anyone else noticed NA servers consist of thirty rambos per side running pell-mell through the map with no awareness to their own team or favorable terrain to fight on? Or is this just me?

Hmm which would I rather take....
30 rambos...
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Or "pub tactics"

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Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 05:33:53 am
Yeah, the infantry just charge in, leaving all the archers and the polearms busy near the spawn point trying to kill 2 or 3 enemy cav.  Then, when the unsupported infantry are steam rolled by the enemy infantry/range/cav, the guys at the spawn point, delighted in their joy that it only took 8 archers and 3 polearms to finally kill the 2 horses, see the main body of enemy and either try camp or kite their way back to victory, despite being outnumbered 4:1.  A fun time for all.

Oh, did I mention 2 handers insist on being the first in the charge, and will elbow by the guys who stop to throw at the enemy group, often getting a jarid or ax in the back, but its well worth the thrill of being the first to get dropped by the archers.  I mean that's the whole point of not having a shield right, so you can run faster into that hail of arrows, giving you plenty of time to log into cRPG forums and start a 'nerf archers' thread before the next round starts.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Pollux on July 01, 2012, 05:44:57 am
Yeah, the infantry just charge in, leaving all the archers and the polearms busy near the spawn point trying to kill 2 or 3 enemy cav.  Then, when the unsupported infantry are steam rolled by the enemy infantry/range/cav, the guys at the spawn point, delighted in their joy that it only took 8 archers and 3 polearms to finally kill the 2 horses, see the main body of enemy and either try camp or kite their way back to victory, despite being outnumbered 4:1.  A fun time for all.

Oh, did I mention 2 handers insist on being the first in the charge, and will elbow by the guys who stop to throw at the enemy group, often getting a jarid or ax in the back, but its well worth the thrill of being the first to get dropped by the archers.  I mean that's the whole point of not having a shield right, so you can run faster into that hail of arrows, giving you plenty of time to log into cRPG forums and start a 'nerf archers' thread before the next round starts.

it's the american way
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Zanze on July 01, 2012, 05:50:47 am
Everyone is a Conan barbarian stack PS build. Conan needs no teammates, and when they get in his way they die too.

Conan does not enjoy multi's. Some clans like Kutt, TkoV, Astralis, NH, etc. actually try and protect the archers when we have a lot, or kill the enemy cav when they have more than we do. But the fact is, usually those 5 to10 are alone on the field by the time they finish their job because the rest of their team has rushed off to their death. Personally, I'm fine with going 0-5 if I have a multi. I'm fine if someone says their E-peen is larger because they have more kills and less deaths, I got my multi and they don't. If only other people saw things this way...


Also, Bryggan has an awesome example. +1 to him.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 01, 2012, 05:52:57 am
(click to show/hide)

+1 for the Dolan. You deserve it :D
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Sarpton on July 01, 2012, 07:02:24 am
Tack-ticks?
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Smoothrich on July 01, 2012, 07:55:22 am
"Clan tactics" = camp near the spawn in an awful position and call their team bad when everyone who decided to not camp like a coward for 5 minutes dies fighting the enemy.  Then the clan proceedes to get encircled by ranged and die anyways, ensuring no multi for their team.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Vodner on July 01, 2012, 08:05:58 am
Or "pub tactics"

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Is that from the Cannon Fodder music video? I thought I was the only person on the planet who remembered that.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Mechanix on July 01, 2012, 09:01:22 am
"Clan tactics" = camp near the spawn in an awful position and call their team bad when everyone who decided to not camp like a coward for 5 minutes dies fighting the enemy.  Then the clan proceedes to get encircled by ranged and die anyways, ensuring no multi for their team.

I lol'd when I seen who downvoted this post, because I remember you saying the exact same sentence when NH was getting rolled because they were camping back
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Smoothrich on July 01, 2012, 09:21:22 am
I lol'd when I seen who downvoted this post, because I remember you saying the exact same sentence when NH was getting rolled because they were camping back

Every clan that has hard ons for "squad combat" and "organized play" has maps, some much more often then others, where they will pretty much refuse to help teammates in any capacity or engage in battle at all while jerking off to their eLiTe tAcTics in finding the worst place on the map to camp and doing nothing else hoping the enemy cav, ranged, and melee will somehow all disconnect at the same time to ensure a win, or something.

The clans that roll multis are usually a mix of classes (cav, ranged, etc) instead of some singular gimmick and fan out around the battlefield supporting pub and pro alike and just impacting the round in general.

When Fallen was a more active NA clan they were probably the worst at this shit that I ever saw, there'd be 10+ of them on at a time usually archers or str build shielders and they would spawn and turn around and find some hill and refuse to leave it, and being on their team almost guaranteed you would never get a multiplier.  Just awful to get stuck playing with clans like that sometimes.

In short, man the fuck up.  People hold W and start fucking up enemies immediately because it wins rounds, I'd rather have some 2hander hero with good battle awareness who weaves in and out of combat to get kills and support teammates aggressively then a half dozen turtle shielders or camping ranged who apply no pressure at all.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: SHinOCk on July 01, 2012, 09:29:55 am
Might be hard to understand for some people, but as 1 of these 'rambo' type, I can tell you that i don't really care about the multi in that game. What I care about is the thrill of the fight you get when you are maneuvering in an supposedly hopeless situation (being outnumbered 3v1 or more). I agree that some people are not really helping their team fighting with that style but there are a bunch of old rambos out there that are turning the tide of a round with their solo skills.

By the way to all the people saying KD/r doesn't matter.. get a fkn clue, the more you kill, the less the other team have and the more likely your side will prevail.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Slamz on July 01, 2012, 10:19:52 am
What's funny about Smoothrich's post is that most of the "top gun heroes" do exactly what he described, except they do it alone.  They used to do it a whole lot more when it guaranteed valor but they still do it plenty -- hide out in the back until most of their team is dead, then jump out and see how many wounded people they can surprise and finish off before finally being shot in the face.

Or you get cav heroes who, very first thing, ride to the other team's spawn to see what late spawning newbies they can kill.  They end up 24-4 and lose every round because all they do is kill 6 totally useless people and then die to the first competent player they attack.

Or you get horse crossbow trolls who basically just draw rounds out before blundering into some random newbie's outstretched sword.


I would take any 5 random mediocre players who are willing to work together before I'd take Smoothrich's "heroic newbie slayer Rambos" (and a new NA clan name is born in 3...2...)


But another interesting facet of NA is probably our admin selection.  What's the biggest EU troll clan?  Picture them.  Now picture half of them being your main server admins.  That's NA.  That's why NA is always overrun with trolls and douchebags.  Even when we post irrefutable evidence of them TK'ing, TW'ing or flat out cheating, their troll admin buddies are standing by to read their copy-pasted unban essay, faux tears in eyes, "10/10, best essay ever, would read again" and their little douchebag troll buddy is right back in the game again, trolling it up again.

It's probably a big part of why NA has a hard time retaining serious team players and why you don't see big team-play clans that last very long.  The troll atmosphere is too thick.  If you don't like delaying, slap fests and teamwounding, you "can't take a joke" and "take this game too serious".

So the serious players that would be a part of big teams and organized play go find a game with a community that isn't run by trolls.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Para on July 01, 2012, 10:30:29 am
I think your guys' problem is that you're playing battle. If you want to see tactics, come over to siege.

Just kidding, everyone just plays team deathmatch in siege.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: FrugFrug on July 01, 2012, 10:33:17 am
it's the american way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dm5elAJKSh8#t=890s
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: engurrand on July 01, 2012, 10:44:45 am
Hmm which would I rather take....
30 rambos...
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Or "pub tactics"

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Truth 100%
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: TurmoilTom on July 01, 2012, 10:47:21 am
I think your guys' problem is that you're playing battle. If you want to see tactics, come over to siege.

Just kidding, everyone just plays team deathmatch in siege.

Except it's team deathmatch where one team has to spend a minute and a half getting to where the majority of the other team is each time they respawn.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: MrShine on July 01, 2012, 02:31:34 pm
In all honestly though I think there is a time and place for ramboing, just like there is a time & place to group up.

Running into their entire team alone is obviously suicide for pretty much everyone, but there are players skilled enough to have a good chance against 2 or 3 (or 4) other stragglers, something that is much easier to run into when 'ramboing'.

As a master kill-stealer I can say that being in 'the big group' has its advantages sometimes, but you also have less of an ability to contribute your full potential.  In smaller scale fights I have more room to maneuver w/ my 7 athletics, I have access to all my 4 attack locations (as opposed to mostly overheads & thrusts in a group) and I can in general use more of my 'tricks' that simply aren't available to you in a large close-knit group.

Basically my point is when you go with into a big group you have less of a chance to impact the battle through individual skill.   I personally prefer to find smaller scale (3v3, 5v5) conflicts on the battlefield and try to help turn those, because whenever you outnumber a side you can quickly overwhelm them w/o losing many casualties.  When it's too big though (30v30) it just becomes a cluster of chaos.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 01, 2012, 05:28:08 pm
If I want a multi I'll stick with my stupid blob to go kill the enemy blob and we can go blob a blob of blobs with our blobby blob-blob.


The hard truth.
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Wraist on July 01, 2012, 05:30:42 pm
If I want a multi I'll stick with my stupid blob to go kill the enemy blob and we can go blob a blob of blobs with our blobby blob-blob.


The hard truth.
(click to show/hide)
^ I try to kill this fucker and other fun people =D
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 06:20:27 pm
The simplest tactic is have your melee fight their melee with your archers behind you.  Even if the arrows don't do much damage, they can make the spamming 2 hander you're facing miss a stroke and open him up for a killing hit.  And if cav stays close to infantry instead of finding some secluded field to fight it out they'll have a much better chance too.  As they're trying to watch out for polearms and other cav and throwers they're bound to run into a rock or tree and then the infantry can swarm them.  It seems even lancer cav only seem to get horse bumps when there's too many people around.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Turkhammer on July 01, 2012, 06:30:41 pm
Every clan that has hard ons for "squad combat" and "organized play" has maps, some much more often then others, where they will pretty much refuse to help teammates in any capacity or engage in battle at all while jerking off to their eLiTe tAcTics in finding the worst place on the map to camp and doing nothing else hoping the enemy cav, ranged, and melee will somehow all disconnect at the same time to ensure a win, or something.

The clans that roll multis are usually a mix of classes (cav, ranged, etc) instead of some singular gimmick and fan out around the battlefield supporting pub and pro alike and just impacting the round in general.

When Fallen was a more active NA clan they were probably the worst at this shit that I ever saw, there'd be 10+ of them on at a time usually archers or str build shielders and they would spawn and turn around and find some hill and refuse to leave it, and being on their team almost guaranteed you would never get a multiplier.  Just awful to get stuck playing with clans like that sometimes.

In short, man the fuck up.  People hold W and start fucking up enemies immediately because it wins rounds, I'd rather have some 2hander hero with good battle awareness who weaves in and out of combat to get kills and support teammates aggressively then a half dozen turtle shielders or camping ranged who apply no pressure at all.

How about if the pubbers had held back and defended the hill with the clan instead of rushing off lemming like to their individual deaths?  It works both ways.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Swaggart on July 01, 2012, 06:39:53 pm
Because camping is boring and I'm not playing the game to be bored. I play games because I get bored, not to further compound the problem.

Like Memento said, it's just a game. Quit taking it so seriously. This is why I can't want for the multi system to go the way of the Dodo.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 06:44:16 pm
After charging madly into battle and turning a corner and running into 12 enemies, I spent the remaining 4 minutes watching NH form up and steamroll everyone in their way.  Unfortunately they were quickly outnumbered once all the enemy had killed the early chargers and converged on them.  Needless to say, the next round I just followed their banners, assuming the whole team would too.  They didn't, and the NH tactics actually made it worse by dividing our team into two making us outnumbered each time we met the enemy.

This was unfortunate, but I think clans should realize pubbers are too stupid to follow good, sound tactics, and clans should alter their tactics accordingly, ie forget about creating the perfect formation first and try follow the mindless crowd and form up during the actual fighting.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Swaggart on July 01, 2012, 06:52:21 pm
You call the pubbers stupid, yet knowing full well that your team will not listen to you (this is a public server after all), and continuing with your tactic that inevitably splits the team in half, is the actual stupidity. Just reeks of arrogance if you call others stupid simply because they won't listen to you, especially since no one has any legitimacy to be giving out orders anyway.

We all remember Spook Island. I don't remember anyone that didn't find him a total asshat.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 07:31:21 pm
I am a pubber, and I was being stupid at first.  Also, I wasn't giving out orders, I just started following the NH clan which seemed like the obvious smart thing to do.  But they just moved too slowly for all the rambos out there, so we got divided in two and punished accordingly.  So I had no tactic, just a choice of dying immediately with the Rambos, or dying later with the NH.

So ease off on the hate.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Tanken on July 01, 2012, 07:41:08 pm
I've just gotta go ahead and post here since myself and my clan are big advocates of "Tactics". And unfortunately Smoothrich, have you -ever- seen KUTT sitting at the Spawn, trying to organize our team to stay at spawn? Typically you see my clan charging head on into the action in battle, picking out keypoints to attack or calling out specific Rambos to take down. In Siege, we are constantly coordinating our team as to which checkpoints to take first, often times splitting the forces equally and helping new players understand how they can survive longer with teammates, and how their role can benefit the team even if their KD isn't.


There's a big difference between Clan Tactics and Ramboing, but to label every clan's tactics as "Camp spawn, derpa durp derp." is kinda silly. There are some clans out there that advocate for a more clan-driven game, and clans like NH and KUTT are some of the few that I ever see trying this.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Canary on July 01, 2012, 07:51:24 pm
But another interesting facet of NA is probably our admin selection.  What's the biggest EU troll clan?  Picture them.  Now picture half of them being your main server admins.  That's NA.

What? Hardly any of the NA admins are affiliated with the same clan anymore, at least proportionally few are. I'm not sure to which clan you might be referring as a troll clan that has so many admins on NA, but I assure you that "half of them" are not server admins here.

  That's why NA is always overrun with trolls and douchebags.  Even when we post irrefutable evidence of them TK'ing, TW'ing or flat out cheating, their troll admin buddies are standing by to read their copy-pasted unban essay, faux tears in eyes, "10/10, best essay ever, would read again" and their little douchebag troll buddy is right back in the game again, trolling it up again.

Having an admin clanmate does not keep you from getting banned or remaining banned. It's not our protocol to remove another admin's ban, in fact, so what you're saying is literally not happening. Most of the times when people are getting unbanned it is because they're appealing to the global admins, nearly all of whom do not play on NA.

It's probably a big part of why NA has a hard time retaining serious team players and why you don't see big team-play clans that last very long.  The troll atmosphere is too thick.  If you don't like delaying, slap fests and teamwounding, you "can't take a joke" and "take this game too serious".

It's more likely that they get discouraged when they find out that their strategies do not work as well as they had hoped. Even worse would be being made fun of for using said strategies unsuccessfully.

So the serious players that would be a part of big teams and organized play go find a game with a community that isn't run by trolls.

Or they get discouraged by not having as good a win-loss ratio as they'd hoped and play something that's less challenging to succeed in. At least two of the more team-oriented clans I can think of mass-quit for reasons related to strategus and started playing a different MMORPG instead. It didn't have to do with trolls or whoever they don't like having admin.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Smoothrich on July 01, 2012, 08:09:51 pm
I'm not calling out any clan in particular (except Fallen), or generalizing all clans that like teamwork.  I just think a lot of groups can pretty much work against their team by splitting up from them and only defending each other, and it makes it frustrating or not fun to play sometimes when these "squads" refuse to adapt or just insist on camping in a silly place. 

I'm not even here to shit talk NH or KUTT or anything, I know as a sometimes cavalry player I've been griefed by both clans as you've mentioned managing to cover key chokepoints around the main battle consistently with good anti cav loadouts, zoning me or other cav out of the blob.  When I'm melee though and see an NH stack, I just get the crush through  :D

Pretty much all a good group of players need to do to help the team win is you know do something like attack a flank of the main blob together, where local victories over less organized/skilled players will collapse the enemy pub blob and lead to a quick rout/slaughter.  A lot of clans do this kind of thing without really thinking too hard about it either, because it Just Wins Games.  If you have more than half a dozen players and you are more then half the map away from the blob, you are probably fucking up bad or are just griefing like ATS did (rip Noobie)

Of course, the ultimate next level tactics in Warband gaming was pretty much defined and exemplified by PRO.  Stack half a dozen champ courser lancers, fill out the rest of the spots with 2handed heroes who 1 vs 3 mindlessly and effortlessly, with little to zero organization or discussion of actual events on the server except "I almost feel bad about my 5x for the past 4 hours.. nevermind I don't, fuck cRPG"
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on July 01, 2012, 08:24:54 pm
Ya i remember fallen hill camping spawn with like 10 guys, leaving the team outnumbered 40-50 in the main battle resulting in them being gang raped. Then the 30 survivors from the other team go and gang rape the 10 camping fallen noobs. Then pepole would get mad at fallen for doing this over and over again resulting in us losing over and over again. Then fallen would yell about how we dont know anything about tactics or playing intelligently and that is what they were doing. Isnt there motto like win by any means neccesary? as if they put so much emphasis on winning that they will do anything in order to win, but there tactics make their teams lose constantly.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Beat on July 01, 2012, 08:32:42 pm
I agree with Bryggan and Tank Burner.  Simple team tactics can be effective and fun.  The problem is you have people who will never cooperate.  That's fine, adapt.  Even the best plan will fail if you can't get enough people to carry it out.  That's why it's usually best to just go with the majority of players and use your team tactics on a smaller scale, on the fly.  A handful of organized shielders and pikes supporting 1 or 2 of those good rambo types can win matches for those of us who want to win...

The reason I originally DLed this mod is that I was hoping for more teamwork and tactical gameplay than I found in native multiplayer.  The game is not realistic by a long shot but the principles behind the basic weapons, armor and horses is close enough that, organized team play executed well should dominate the battlefield.  Sadly, it just seems there is not enough interest in that type of game in this community.  Perhaps those of us who are interested could set up some kind of formation battles.  I'm not talking anything near what Napoleonic Wars players do in their rigid lines, but good old medieval tactics with units of infantry, archers and cavalry.

Either way, I enjoy this mod for what it is.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: engurrand on July 01, 2012, 08:39:28 pm
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Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: EyeBeat on July 01, 2012, 09:26:50 pm
I just run out and try to do my best to divert half the team towards me and let my team take care of the other half.

If this does not work I start trying to take out archers.

If there are no archers I try and set up 1v1's.

That is basically my strategy.  If it doesn't work I can alt tab and go on the internet for a while.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Slamz on July 01, 2012, 10:35:21 pm
Because camping is boring and I'm not playing the game to be bored. I play games because I get bored, not to further compound the problem.

So you don't want to camp the hill for 3 minutes because that's boring, but you love charging out, dying to the first group of enemies you see and then spectating the match for 3 minutes.

Sense.  This makes none.

Of course, the ultimate next level tactics in Warband gaming was pretty much defined and exemplified by PRO.  Stack half a dozen champ courser lancers, fill out the rest of the spots with 2handed heroes who 1 vs 3 mindlessly and effortlessly, with little to zero organization or discussion of actual events on the server except "I almost feel bad about my 5x for the past 4 hours.. nevermind I don't, fuck cRPG"

As for PRO, what they did had nothing to do with good tactics (or fun).  That's what you call a "cluestack".  You put all of the game's biggest veterans on one banner, guaranteeing that the other team will have few, if any veterans of their own, and then you run around with pants on your head and declare yourself the world's greatest tactical players.  It's like playing some MMORPG where you take your level 92 half-dwarf gayblade into the newbie zone, slaughter everyone and declare yourself the best gamer ever.

PRO's weakness ended up being 2 long spears that stood near each other.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: TurmoilTom on July 02, 2012, 01:45:16 am
As a Ex-PRO clanner and a current member of KUTT I can confidently say that both Ramboing and Tactics are viable methods of holding a multi for several hours.

Even though PRO had a Vent channel everyone hung out in, we never discussed tactics unless the cav couldn't work their magic because of some NH pikemen or something, and even then it just took a dude like Shincock, Serge (when he's not on his horse) or MrShine to assassinate the dudes. (Not trying to make it seem like I've got beef with NH or something. You guys were one of the few clans that made PRO discuss how to win instead of just talking about how awesome we all are and making fun of the entire enemy team.)

As for KUTT, we play siege almost exclusively. Our extensive use of weapon racks, healing tents, siege shields, and clever positioning at vital chokepoints render the enemy team incapable of captu-AHH FUCK IT YES WE WIN BECAUSE WE ALL STACK STRENGTH AND PLATE CRUTCH! UMAD BRO? COME AT ME I GOT +3 MILANESE AND A +3 GREAT MAUL YOU THINK YOU CAN BEAT THESE RAD "TACTICS" I DON'T THINK SO
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Blackzilla on July 02, 2012, 01:47:22 am
Serge threatened to ban me for suggesting that we use Teamwork.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: TurmoilTom on July 02, 2012, 01:49:06 am
Serge threatened to ban me for suggesting that we use Teamwork.

True story, but even then teamwork occured spontaneously at times and no one minded it. :P
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Havoco on July 02, 2012, 01:50:17 am
Go play strat if u want strategy. :shock: :shock:
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Digglez on July 02, 2012, 01:59:50 am
Go play strat if u want strategy. :shock: :shock:

Just like hospitallers to have low standards.  how bout dropping battle mode and only keep siege only, you'd see a gigantic patch of fixes that focused the game on teamwork
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Havoco on July 02, 2012, 04:07:08 am
Just like hospitallers to have low standards.  how bout dropping battle mode and only keep siege only, you'd see a gigantic patch of fixes that focused the game on teamwork

Lol, we were one of the first clans to do tactics and strategies. This was back during strat 1 with the formation of the northern empire. Tbh, it doesn't really matter how much strategy u do in public games. You still lose and win at about the same ratio.



Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: OpenPalm on July 02, 2012, 04:20:35 am
Tbh, it doesn't really matter how much strategy u do in public games. You still lose and win at about the same ratio.

I feel like this is probably true, but I think it's much more fun to use strategy.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 02, 2012, 07:54:31 am
I'm going to agree with this much that I've noticed; using basic group tactics is kind of like this.

If teams are evenly matched, then every fight is 50/50, at least in abstract. If every fight is 50/50, and the only fights are duels, then every battle is 50/50. These are the battles that come down to two or three players per side. Victory is ultimately up to chance. If every battle is 50/50, the only way to improve your chance of victory is either imbalanced player skill, or fighting in stacked odds. Imbalancing player skill is practically codified in the clan-stacking mechanism, and I will not disparage it. Fighting in stacked odds means 2v1 or 3v1 fights, or 1v1 fights with one player wounded by an archer, or matching up an enemy to his foil such as pike versus horse.

It is the fundamental concept of teamwork and all useful game tactics to create stacked odds. If one team creates stacked odds while the other team does not, the imbalanced fights would practically assure victory. A team of rambo 2h wielders running like a string of ants head-on into a team of archers behind a wall of 1h shieldsmen would be decimated before hitting the infantry and beaten in 2v1 or 3v1 fights after they did. This is because the strung-out individual 'warriors' are hitting a coordinated enemy one at a time after being engaged by their natural counter, archers. Its simply one team ganking another.

Based on this, one would think the first team to attempt teamwork (hill-camping or other simple tactics) would win. However this frequently isn't the case. Many players react to a call for tactics with lines like 'shield walls don't work' and proceed to ignore the suggestion. This results in a split team; those who are listening to the order to hold at a point, and those who are willfully ignoring the order and continuing in 'team deathmatch' style. This creates a problem. The team that called for tactics but did not implement them in unison is now stacked against itself because half of the team is holding back while the other half is charging forward. The team is engaged in two half-battles, both at 2v1 odds, and destroyed. Thus 'camping didn't work'.

The tactics are failing not because the tactics are bad, but because only about half the team is using them.

Possible solution; designate an NA server as the 'Teamwork' server where like minds can fight, get clans to form a nucleus of tactical play and publicly call the other players in to join them, use banner-stacking to stack team players together in pub matches, change the multi/xp reward mechanism to encourage blobs the way the original proximity-to-death rewards worked to encourage 'xp barns'.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Digglez on July 02, 2012, 08:46:43 am
Possible solution; designate an NA server as the 'Teamwork' server where like minds can fight, get clans to form a nucleus of tactical play and publicly call the other players in to join them, use banner-stacking to stack team players together in pub matches, change the multi/xp reward mechanism to encourage blobs the way the original proximity-to-death rewards worked to encourage 'xp barns'.

Dont need a special 'teamwork' server to do teamwork.  Either type in chat or ask for a clans voice coms if you want to work with them.  Or just common sense shit.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Zerran on July 02, 2012, 09:43:32 am
Based on this, one would think the first team to attempt teamwork (hill-camping or other simple tactics) would win. However this frequently isn't the case. Many players react to a call for tactics with lines like 'shield walls don't work' and proceed to ignore the suggestion. This results in a split team; those who are listening to the order to hold at a point, and those who are willfully ignoring the order and continuing in 'team deathmatch' style. This creates a problem. The team that called for tactics but did not implement them in unison is now stacked against itself because half of the team is holding back while the other half is charging forward. The team is engaged in two half-battles, both at 2v1 odds, and destroyed. Thus 'camping didn't work'.

The tactics are failing not because the tactics are bad, but because only about half the team is using them.

Very true. It's possible to still use tactics, but when utilizing them it's necessary to design them in such a way that they incorporate "the Zerg", even if only for delaying/holding.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Everkistus on July 02, 2012, 09:53:41 am
I heard that once Fallens were renowned for their running archer tactics on NA.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Vibe on July 02, 2012, 09:56:41 am
NA use chat to drama extensively in-game and on forum
EU uses banpolls
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Macropus on July 02, 2012, 10:02:31 am
1) If team tries to use some tactics, it becomes divided on those who follow tactics and those dummies who just charge anyway. Chargers die quick and team become outnumbered by enemies so even tactics won't help.
2) If the whole team charges, it has equial chances to win as well as enemies team.

I think that's why the most battles consist of two teams charging each other.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: a_bear_irl on July 02, 2012, 10:39:21 am
the problem with "tactics" is that the longer you stall the longer the enemy ranged sit there and pick you apart, half the team (2h and short polearms) are doing nothing or (shielders) sitting in a shieldwall

more than tactics what matters is knowing how to fight, and more importantly move, within a group.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 02, 2012, 10:54:33 am
I would say archers shooting up 2h users is a non-issue. Cheap shields or just standing behind a tree or shielder is all you ever need to do, particularly if you stay defensive.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Havoco on July 02, 2012, 11:09:03 am

Possible solution; designate an NA server as the 'Teamwork' server where like minds can fight, get clans to form a nucleus of tactical play and publicly call the other players in to join them, use banner-stacking to stack team players together in pub matches, change the multi/xp reward mechanism to encourage blobs the way the original proximity-to-death rewards worked to encourage 'xp barns'.

Basically organize scrims with other clans. Btw, isnt that battlegroups thing supposed to do something like this?
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 11:28:20 am
Boost archer damage by 100+%, give them -66% of their running speed, make every map open plains. Enjoy shieldwalls and stuff, because random herpderpcharge team dies.

Right now, with half the map being worthless run to clusterfuck maps, and on even normal maps tactics being of little consequence b/c the team which does use tactics still won't prevail over the stacked team, and stacked team has no need for tactics because they win anyway, well... that's what you get.

Alternatively, old money/xp system so you get money/xp for kills scored in your proximity.

Actually, just make every map random open plains. Perhaps tweak in for an occasional ruin/etc also random. The only way to force people to cooperate is when failure to do so gets them killed repeatedly in idiotic ways.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: SHinOCk on July 02, 2012, 11:54:24 am
Nice retarded suggestions Bruce, why not just remove melee while were at it cause that's what would happen with changes like that
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 12:21:57 pm
If melee players are by definition 2h which cannot use shield or stand still for a minute, or stop making "ARCHERY/CAVALRY/1H/SHIELD/POLEARM/THROWING/CROSSBOW/1H NO SHIELD/FAKEPEASANT OP!" threads then seriously.

That is why we can't have nice things and tactics, only zerg rush.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: MrShine on July 02, 2012, 02:06:04 pm
Based on this, one would think the first team to attempt teamwork (hill-camping or other simple tactics) would win. However this frequently isn't the case. Many players react to a call for tactics with lines like 'shield walls don't work' and proceed to ignore the suggestion. This results in a split team; those who are listening to the order to hold at a point, and those who are willfully ignoring the order and continuing in 'team deathmatch' style. This creates a problem. The team that called for tactics but did not implement them in unison is now stacked against itself because half of the team is holding back while the other half is charging forward. The team is engaged in two half-battles, both at 2v1 odds, and destroyed. Thus 'camping didn't work'.

The tactics are failing not because the tactics are bad, but because only about half the team is using them.

No the tactics are failing because they are bad.  Any fool can spam orders in chat, but why should other players follow those orders?  Thinking you can control 40-50 players through a chat blurb (that many might ignore or have turned off) is asking to fail.

If you want super organized tactics like what you are describing do a scrim with another organized clan, your 'teamwork' server idea will be ineffective. 

Yes an organized group might have a better chance of winning (assuming they ARE all organized) , but they also become a bigger target by ranged. are more susceptible to being flanked, etc.   
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Swaggart on July 02, 2012, 05:11:40 pm
I am a pubber, and I was being stupid at first.  Also, I wasn't giving out orders, I just started following the NH clan which seemed like the obvious smart thing to do.  But they just moved too slowly for all the rambos out there, so we got divided in two and punished accordingly.  So I had no tactic, just a choice of dying immediately with the Rambos, or dying later with the NH.

So ease off on the hate.

I'm not hating on you, or clans that use tactics. I'm pointing out that no one has the right to call pubbers stupid simply because they don't follow your vision of tactics. No one is obliged to follow your way of thinking and calling someone stupid for that is utter arrogance.

So you don't want to camp the hill for 3 minutes because that's boring, but you love charging out, dying to the first group of enemies you see and then spectating the match for 3 minutes.

Sense.  This makes none.

You're assuming that I blindly charge into a group of opponents as opposed to sticking with my own group of teammates. If I should happen to die while my group is fighting their group, then that's fine with me. What I don't find fun is sitting back until there is a 3:1 disadvantage against me and then getting steamrolled without much of a chance.

Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 02, 2012, 05:19:32 pm
Has anyone else noticed NA servers consist of thirty rambos per side running pell-mell through the map with no awareness to their own team or favorable terrain to fight on? Or is this just me?

That's why people cry about cav being overpowered, when in reality it's just infantry all trying to be rambo, and not even remotely trying to work as a team, use tactics, or the proper equipment to counter what the enemy throws at you. 
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: rustyspoon on July 02, 2012, 05:23:47 pm
IMO best tactics on battle are to stick with the main group and find a combat buddy.

Stick next to your combat buddy and double team everyone they come up against. You can rip through a lot of people quickly just by doing that.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Elindor on July 02, 2012, 05:35:54 pm
 ...killing a lot of defenders is especially useful, since that "puts them on timers".

However, the closer this is done to the flag, the more helpful it is to the attackers.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Digglez on July 02, 2012, 07:08:42 pm
I'm not hating on you, or clans that use tactics. I'm pointing out that no one has the right to call pubbers stupid simply because they don't follow your vision of tactics. No one is obliged to follow your way of thinking and calling someone stupid for that is utter arrogance.

You're assuming that I blindly charge into a group of opponents as opposed to sticking with my own group of teammates. If I should happen to die while my group is fighting their group, then that's fine with me. What I don't find fun is sitting back until there is a 3:1 disadvantage against me and then getting steamrolled without much of a chance.

Yes, your odds are MUCH better assaulting a larger force that has large numbers of ranged.  Your lack of patience is disturbing, perhaps you could try Xbox Live.  It wouldnt be 1:3 odds if any of the veteran players had an once of discipline.

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Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Swaggart on July 02, 2012, 07:38:04 pm
*Ounce
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Canary on July 02, 2012, 07:55:03 pm
That's why people cry about cav being overpowered, when in reality it's just infantry all trying to be rambo, and not even remotely trying to work as a team, use tactics, or the proper equipment to counter what the enemy throws at you.

I guess they figure that if the cavalry players get to go off and charge by themselves, why shouldn't they?
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: MrShine on July 02, 2012, 08:25:13 pm
You're assuming that I blindly charge into a group of opponents as opposed to sticking with my own group of teammates.
Yes, your odds are MUCH better assaulting a larger force that has large numbers of ranged. 
You're assuming that I blindly charge into a group of opponents as opposed to sticking with my own group of teammates.
Yes, your odds are MUCH better assaulting a larger force that has large numbers of ranged. 

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There is a right and a wrong way to rambo.  Being a smart rambo (as most of the 'skilled veterans' actually are) has a large impact on the round.  Being a stupid rambo & going headlong into insurmountable odds is something completely different, and is not what he's talking about.

Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Bryggan on July 02, 2012, 08:43:10 pm
I'm not hating on you, or clans that use tactics. I'm pointing out that no one has the right to call pubbers stupid simply because they don't follow your vision of tactics. No one is obliged to follow your way of thinking and calling someone stupid for that is utter arrogance.


I think if people keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results, I may call them stupid without even a hint of arrogance.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Swaggart on July 02, 2012, 08:59:40 pm
The exact same can be said of clans that try to use 'tactics' that inevitably split the team.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: San on July 02, 2012, 09:21:33 pm
There are few specific cases where camping may work, but that's when your team has the proper camping location and better ranged. It relies on which team would have the better ranged.

I still maintain the belief that attacking is superior as long as the team has good timing on infantry charges and can stay together in such a way where teammates can help each other stay alive. Sometimes, the team may decide to do something that I consider a poor choice, but go along with it since that is my team's main force. It is more beneficial to keep them alive than split the team. As a shielder, acting as front line support for a strong push is most effective for me.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: oprah_winfrey on July 02, 2012, 09:30:17 pm
There is nothing more fun in crpg then sitting on a hill, watching the other team sitting on the other hill 100 yards away.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on July 02, 2012, 10:07:34 pm
There is nothing more fun in crpg then sitting on a hill, watching the other team sitting on the other hill 100 yards away.

Ya it will be like Shogun 2 was at-least back when i played online, both armies hill camp for an hour until the other guy gets sick of it and attacks you.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Turkhammer on July 03, 2012, 04:47:48 am
Because camping is boring and I'm not playing the game to be bored. I play games because I get bored, not to further compound the problem.

Like Memento said, it's just a game. Quit taking it so seriously. This is why I can't want for the multi system to go the way of the Dodo.

ADHD much?
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Turkhammer on July 03, 2012, 04:49:36 am
I think if people keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results, I may call them stupid without even a hint of arrogance.

Nope, that is the definition of insanity.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Slamz on July 03, 2012, 04:51:38 am
The exact same can be said of clans that try to use 'tactics' that inevitably split the team.

There are several ways that teamplay tactics can go:

1) A clan does teamplay and the rest of the people play along
2) A clan does teamplay and the rest of the people ignore them so the clan advances in order to support the morons
3) A clan does teamplay and the rest of the people ignore them so the clan says "fuck it, we're here to work on teamplay" and so they do, even if all the morons run off and die without them

None of these really strike me as "wrong".

Very few "skilled player" ever do anything for the good of their team except by accident.  They are always doing #3.  Cav rides down enemy noobs then spends the rest of the match bumping their own team while trying to steal kills.  Two-handed heroes break from the pack because they want to try to sneak up on archers and find some "duels" on the edges.  Archers ignore everyone and just look for easy snipes.

Don't go trying to crap on teamplay for "splitting up the group" when I could log into any server right now and find the biggest of the big-name players off by themselves looking for easy kills and duels.


(Incidentally, your quote from Turbo is absolutely correct.  Only very stupid or impatient cavalry can be killed by spears.  The smart ones just ride around you and lance the first non-spear that's outside of your 8 foot radius spear range.  If you want to counter cavalry outside of an 8 foot ring around yourself, get a ranged weapon, not a spear.)
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Slamz on July 03, 2012, 04:53:18 am
Nope, that is the definition of insanity.

I thought it was the definition of "practice".
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Swaggart on July 03, 2012, 05:21:06 am
Wow, since so many people seem to be missing the point, I'll just put it into bigger text and caps.

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE IN A CLAN THAT LIKES "TEAMWORK" DOES NOT MEAN ANYONE HAS TO LISTEN TO YOU. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL PEOPLE THAT DON'T LISTEN TO YOU PUBBERS/STUPID/WHATEVER. IF YOU WANT TO DO YOUR CIRCLEJERK, FINE, BUT NO ONE IS OBLIGED TO FOLLOW SUIT AND LOSING THE ROUND IS NOT THE OTHER PEOPLES' FAULT IF THEY DON'T LISTEN TO YOU.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Miracle on July 03, 2012, 06:09:30 am
Wow, since so many people seem to be missing the point, I'll just put it into bigger text and caps.

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE IN A CLAN THAT LIKES "TEAMWORK" DOES NOT MEAN ANYONE HAS TO LISTEN TO YOU. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL PEOPLE THAT DON'T LISTEN TO YOU PUBBERS/STUPID/WHATEVER. IF YOU WANT TO DO YOUR CIRCLEJERK, FINE, BUT NO ONE IS OBLIGED TO FOLLOW SUIT AND LOSING THE ROUND IS NOT THE OTHER PEOPLES' FAULT IF THEY DON'T LISTEN TO YOU.

I'm sorry...I still don't follow.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 03, 2012, 07:32:31 am
Look at it this way. Four guys split into two teams and play paper scissors rock. They all throw scissors every damn time, and the game is a draw. One guy says, hey, throw rock. He says fuck no, I'll go paper. The other team throws scissors. Paper gets shredded and then the two scissors beat the shit out of the rock together.

If you listened to the suggestion, you'd be drasticly increasing your chances to win. But since you don't listen to the suggestion, you practically assure your own defeat. He has as much a right to call you stupid for that as you have to call his strategy a "circlejerk".

Is nobody obliged to follow a self-appointed leader? Well, considering that through following that leader you improve your chance of the entire team winning, you could say you are obliged to the team.

And is it not your fault if the team loses because you do not fulfill your obligations to the team?

Consider if a player went and hid in the bushes all round and never fought at all. Is he just as free to do that as you are to charge into the melee? Sure. But he fails his obligation to the team by not fighting. He's a leecher, and we kick leechers because they weaken the team. And he's at partially at fault if the team loses as well, since he did nothing to contribute towards victory.

If, by disobeying the group to fulfill your own right to do whatever you want reduces your group's success rate, you're at fault.

So your fine capital letters are squandered and I'll see you on the field.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Taser on July 03, 2012, 08:00:54 am
The only kind of tactics really available to the public is GO RIGHT, GO LEFT, STAY TOGETHER. There's no real ability to organize random people in the servers. Joker had some ideas on this matter which I don't completely agree with but I definitely wouldn't have an issue with if it was implemented.

Most of the time tactics are done are done by clan members with their clan and they try their best to get the other randoms on their team to try their tactic which is usually camp or go a general direction.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 03, 2012, 08:07:33 am
The only real organization being discussed in this thread is "go to defensible landmark A, stay together". There's nothing sophisticated about it at all.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Taser on July 03, 2012, 08:12:09 am
Yep. There's not many people that do anything that advanced in this game. No ambushes or advancing together, formations, etc.

Would be nice but most of the time its hard to do in public servers since not everyone will listen. Since not everyone listens, the tactic can work against the team since it pulls some people back or away from the group that didn't listen. Thus the team loses. Then the team usually blames the clan or people that tried to do the tactic which may be a great one but simply didn't work with half or less of the team listening to them.

Plus its easier to say "Go to ruins. Stay together!!" to a public server without trying anything more advanced.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: MrShine on July 03, 2012, 03:10:43 pm
Look at it this way. Four guys split into two teams and play paper scissors rock. They all throw scissors every damn time, and the game is a draw. One guy says, hey, throw rock. He says fuck no, I'll go paper. The other team throws scissors. Paper gets shredded and then the two scissors beat the shit out of the rock together.

If you listened to the suggestion, you'd be drasticly increasing your chances to win. But since you don't listen to the suggestion, you practically assure your own defeat. He has as much a right to call you stupid for that as you have to call his strategy a "circlejerk".

Is nobody obliged to follow a self-appointed leader? Well, considering that through following that leader you improve your chance of the entire team winning, you could say you are obliged to the team.

And is it not your fault if the team loses because you do not fulfill your obligations to the team?

Consider if a player went and hid in the bushes all round and never fought at all. Is he just as free to do that as you are to charge into the melee? Sure. But he fails his obligation to the team by not fighting. He's a leecher, and we kick leechers because they weaken the team. And he's at partially at fault if the team loses as well, since he did nothing to contribute towards victory.

If, by disobeying the group to fulfill your own right to do whatever you want reduces your group's success rate, you're at fault.

So your fine capital letters are squandered and I'll see you on the field.

Your analogy fails because it assumes the 'clan' has the correct strategy for a round.  I've seen countless times where "clan tactics!" is an abysmal mess even if most of the team goes along with it.

Swaggart's capital letters are just as valid as they were before: no one made "the clan" the authority on how to win or lose a round.  It isn't everyone else's fault for not listening to you, because why should they?  I could just as easily give opposite orders as "the clan" during a round, what makes the clan the one that everyone should listen to?

You will be far more successful leading by example: stick with the team and exhibit sound teamwork while supporting pubbers and clanmates alike, and before you know it you'll get most of the team following you naturally.  If people follow you, great!  If they don't, maybe you should keep working on making your gameplay known (and feared) by winning rounds & maintaining a good multiplier, and people will naturally start sticking with you.

Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 03:15:19 pm
Plus its easier to say "Go to ruins. Stay together!!" to a public server without trying anything more advanced.

The problem is when you shout "go to ruins, stick together" and half the people mill across the fields randomly. Because sticking in a blob and running to ruins is hard.

Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: dynamike on July 03, 2012, 03:39:23 pm
Nerf tactics!
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: oprah_winfrey on July 03, 2012, 03:41:17 pm
ITS TOO BAD SPOOK ISLAND IS DEAD. NOW THAT GUY KNEW HOW TO LEAD A GROUP.

Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: MrShine on July 03, 2012, 04:25:18 pm
ITS TOO BAD SPOOK ISLAND IS DEAD. NOW THAT GUY KNEW HOW TO LEAD A GROUP.

If only we had a man to repossess the spirit of Spook all our pubs could once again achieve constant x5.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Tom Cruise on July 03, 2012, 07:54:30 pm
KUTT (as krutchy as they are  :?) has some of the best tactics and teamwork right now, atleast for siege ive seen. They actually stick together and work as a group and use their different builds and weapons to pry out the strengths and weaknesses of the opposing team.  They have shielders for protection, longspears/pikes for support, and throwers for close quarters range. All of these (plus the super plate they have) tie in to make one big steamroller. Love em or hate em its effective.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 03, 2012, 08:07:53 pm
"We don't have a mermaid science programme", National Ocean Service spokeswoman Carol Kavanagh told the BBC.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Miracle on July 03, 2012, 08:49:00 pm
Building upon what Mr. KaMiKaZe said, the only way you are ever going to get teamwork is to nerf cav.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Tanken on July 03, 2012, 09:23:40 pm
KUTT (as krutchy as they are  :?) has some of the best tactics and teamwork right now, atleast for siege ive seen. They actually stick together and work as a group and use their different builds and weapons to pry out the strengths and weaknesses of the opposing team.  They have shielders for protection, longspears/pikes for support, and throwers for close quarters range. All of these (plus the super plate they have) tie in to make one big steamroller. Love em or hate em its effective.

^ This guy's alright by me!
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Tom Cruise on July 03, 2012, 10:32:50 pm
^ This guy's alright by me!

Lol im just saying. As much as i rage over the wall of plate coming at me and getting poked to death, or xeen lodging a jarid in me, you guys are one well oiled machine.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on July 03, 2012, 10:52:15 pm
A big part of the problem is the "YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DOOOOOOOOOOO" factor. That's not going to change. No words; however eloquent they may be will change that. The average motherfucker on the internet is not there to take orders. In fact, if someone were to tell them in a fashion that rubbed them the wrong way "Go left, god you fucks are so stupid this is why we lose we need a gfalidsjklcjreas" they're going to do the complete opposite thing to spite you. People just don't give a fuck, man. Nobody seriously thinks that "LOL WE GOTTA WIN BY CHARGING THEIR 10 RANGED OVER THERE". Maybe there's a couple, but they're ignorable retards. Likewise, nobody is ignorant enough to not realize that a completely organized team of 40 dudes, with poles and throwers to cut down flanking cav and a gaggle of ranged to fill advancing enemies with holes is better. The problem lies in the fact that THEY JUST DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

A new server for teamwork is not an option that would fix anything. I don't go on siege, so I'm always on community, NA1, or duel. Except for rare occasions where it gets maybe 20 people on it or when NA1 is down, nobody is on community. People are going to join the fullest server that there is. That's how it is, it's how people do. You'd be lucky to get 20 people on that server maximum, and organized tactics in a server population that small seems silly.

The only suggestion that I can give you people that seem to be terribly upset by the fact that random people on the internet are NOT going to act in the interest of the entire team is this: be fucking polite and personable when you're telling people what to do. Whining that they WON'T do what you say, and saying THAT is the reason the team is losing is going to make them spite you more. Why the fuck would I suddenly listen to someone after 2 rounds of ineffective orders now that they're being downright rude and whiny? I fucking wouldn't, and I would do the opposite thing because I'd be damn sure that would be more fun and humorous than listening to the braying jackass field-marshall.

Be NICE. Say please every now and again, and not in a pompous manner. People have to generally like you to do what you say on the internet. If people don't like you, then you're shit out of luck if you want to be the field marshall. Let me throw a scenario out here.

Robert Namo of Astralis is a very good player, and he's obviously played this mod for a long time. People generally have a positive image of him, it seems. NA1 had 80 people in it one night, Namo gets on and types in teamchat the simple instruction "GO LEFT" about 8 times in a row. The entire team went left and we slaughtered everyone with about 20 players to spare on a 40 man team. Namo did this once more, got teamswapped, and ordered the other team around with simple directional commands. THEY slaughtered us in a horrific fashion. After namo left our team, I tried to take his place. Not many people know me too well, and I am certainly no Namo. I'm not better than most of the players on the team, so while some of the team listened, some didn't. That's fine, I can't command an entire team after playing this mod for 2 generations. I don't mind that at all. I certainly didn't blame anybody, or act rudely.

Now, let me throw another one out there. It was NA1 with an 80 man server on that one map with the 5 sets of stonehenge looking ruins and lots of field in between them. And some hills, too. The good Reinhardt here ordered the team to set up a shield wall, in what I (and most of the team apparently) felt was a self-important and pompous fashion. Some of us set up a wall (including me, I know thats a solid way to win that map easily in pub), most of the team charged forward and got fucked hard. Next round, reinhardt bitched a little bit, and did the same thing. Same result. The round after that he was releasing a torrent of insults to the team and to players on it. Guess how many people listening to him and held position on top of that hill? A lot fewer. I know I ran forward just to make the motherfucker more upset. I'm not going to listen to somebody that is genuinely insulting me and my teammates. Thats how most people are. We only lasted one more round (it was obviously an 0-4 map) and by this round just about nobody held on top of that hill, we got fucked harder than any other round. It was butt-devastation. Senor Reinhardt continued his tirade, and there was not an ounce of peace to be had in the land.

tldr; If you want people to listen to you, don't be a jackass. Be polite, be friendly, be personable, and have a good reputation. If you don't have these things/don't act in an appropriate fashion, people will not listen to you, and will do the opposite of what you say. You'll fuck the team worse than if nobody used chat during the map one time.

Edit: Just read back over what I typed. I mean no insult from any of it. I've got nothing to gain from talking shit to a random person on the internet. I probably caught reinhardt in a bad moment, and he probably doesn't go around trying to field-marshall ineffectively all the time. I've only seen him at his worst.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: TurmoilTom on July 04, 2012, 12:16:58 am
Lol im just saying. As much as i rage over the wall of plate coming at me and getting poked to death, or xeen lodging a jarid in me, you guys are one well oiled machine.

Yeah, I always make sure the boys are oiled up reeeaaal nice.  8-)
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: MazrimX on July 04, 2012, 01:08:28 am
Lol im just saying. As much as i rage over the wall of plate coming at me and getting poked to death, or xeen lodging a jarid in me, you guys are one well oiled machine.

QFE

I always grit my teeth when facing off against a group of these guys, even with superior numbers. It just never turns out well for our team. lol
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Havoco on July 04, 2012, 01:14:45 am
Or you have ppl that just dont care. They might be listening to music, getting high/drunk, minimized during their downtime, etc. Sometimes ppl just want to play the game and in turn dont take the game very seriously.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Ganner on July 04, 2012, 01:16:48 am
For some odd reason I read this thread as "NA server Tacos" and i got excited for a moment.   Cause ya know, Tacos rule.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Havoco on July 04, 2012, 01:21:17 am
For some odd reason I read this thread as "NA server Tacos" and i got excited for a moment.   Cause ya know, Tacos rule.
The convo would be better if it was about tacos.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Turboflex on July 04, 2012, 02:11:07 am
Smoothrich had some good points earlier in the thread about some teamplay flaws. Basically I also put the onus on the clan to work with the pubbie blob (and take into account class composition and how the pubbied will react to a mAp). Clans can't just be like fallen and sit back, they have to antipate pubbie movements, so not to waste too much time being in a non-impact situation. When clans do this properly they can be a significant force multiplier.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 04, 2012, 02:36:41 am
Jankins;

However impolitely, you raise a valid point.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: callahan9119 on July 04, 2012, 03:03:45 am
I've been in the NH TS for a little while now and they always have us go support other guys/randoms....I've never been a part of any camping either. I'm not gonna run into an area covered by a dozen archers and throwers, so hanging behind a building so I don't get my face decorated with a jarid seems more like prudence than camping.

From what I've experienced, it's generally us moving around to assist various groups of players or areas. As soon as the round starts everyone runs forward and gradually spreads out so there is no coherence. You can't blame a team/clan that sticks together for not "being with everyone else", because "everyone else" is all over the friggin place.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on July 04, 2012, 03:07:23 am
I worded it in such a way because I felt that the story warranted it. I guess that's also the way that I tend to communicate. No disrespect intended. I do not get my jollies from "trolling" dudes on the internet. I don't know most people in the mod too well, and I certainly don't know you besides that one snapshot of your personality.

Basically, lolinternet.

Oh, and I have to STRONGLY disagree with anyone implying that NH performs the usual "lol lets get 3-6 guys to camp while our team gets raped ajajajajjaaj". They're always running around with their shields up in wrecking ball formation. Sometimes it works spectacularly, less often it does not.
Title: Re: NA Server Tactics
Post by: Ganner on July 04, 2012, 03:38:19 am
Im still disappointed this thread isn't about tacos.