cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on June 11, 2012, 10:44:11 pm
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Revert some changes you did in the past when hoplites had their greatest ally polestagger. Also buff them a little bit more. What I'm thinking:
Awlpike, Ashwood Pike, Boar Spear, War Spear, Red Tassel Spear, Double Sided Lance and Forks - 1 slot
Awlpike and Ashwood Pike - sheatable
Awlpike - can be used with shield
Also buff Awlpike price by 2k gold.
What this change will do?
It will give polearm users who aren't using pikes/long spears a way to fend off cav. Also hoplites will be able to switch to four directional polearm while dueling someone which will make them pretty strong opponent.
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Sorry but no.
Stop brainfarting, man.
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No. Perhaps lessen the damage and speed penalities of using spears in one hand, but not to hoplite/glaivespammer etc hybrids. That is a bad idea.
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I think it would be good to let awlpike be used with shield again after removing polestagger...
Honestly it would be good for the balance team to look at the full spectrum of what their "balance" will do to the game. Naturally that would include looking at spear/hoplite users after removing polestagger. A lot of changes in the past were made with polestagger in mind.
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You're pathetic you become a polearm/cav hybrid and instantly start to lobby for multiple polearm (bec and now this) and Hybrid (Lower bonus for any skill>6) buffs...
im a polearm lover but i think this change would suck
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Hoplitesa aren't as strong against infantry as they used to be when they had polestagger. This change is mainly to let them counter cav which are still strongest and most carefree class in the game.
No, I'm not cav/pole hybrid. I'm just trying out different classes to see how they perform. I do think that polearmers who don't use pikes are at disadvantage against cav and that shouldn't be the case. I'm stronger anti cav unit with greatsword than with poleaxe and that doesn't make any sense. Sure, I can stop the horse with a poleaxe but it's risky to deal with lancers because best ones will outreach me a lot easier. With greatsword fighting single cav is easy mode.
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Tbh, the greatest way to counter cavalry is to buff ranged / nerf horses or both. Even with all this stuff, if you play as a total tard it is easy to get some kills with just a great lance and courser. Do that and unfuck the lance angles, it is just stupid compared to the old system, esp. cav vs cav fights.
As for awlpike being usable with shield, +1 to that. I would just not like the hoplite / glaive hybrid, bit too good imo.
The old crpg with more damaging archers (and worse horse heirlooms, riding being every 6 agi too) then this crap and open maps (esp on EU4 which was very populated at the time) saw a hell of a lot more tactical play instead of this random crap. Shieldwalls and such were quite common. But I guess that is boring and everyone should :chaarge: and :meleehero:
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Well, Hybridisation DOES need buffing, but not the polearms: The WPF curve needs reworking, or the effect of wpf, because if you google Hoplite, hit images and what do you see? Men with Spears, shields AND SWORDS. Currently, its ONLY JUST viable to make an actual hoplite, spearman, shield-brother, weapon-man, call it what you will, the weapons we have in crpg are WEIRDLY out of time with the armours in general:
2handed weapons were not popular prior to the 15-16th century, nor where the array of massive poleaxes we have, and the armours are in general much older. Prior to 2handers and halberd type weapons supporting pike formations, most hairy, manly men marched off to war with a spear and a shield, cause spears keep fuckers away from you, and shields keep you alive. But once the nasty foreigners (or nasty peasants, or nasty rebels, or nasty locals refusing to get raided) were past your spearpoint, you pulled out a sword (if you could afford it), or an axe, or club and beat the nasty man over the head with it, untill he stopped trying to expose your insides to the light. This was the way of it for thousands of years, mainly because it was effective. The rise of large 2handers and weapons like the bec were to counter plate armour. Now back to game balance:
Spear and shield is near on suicidal in any 1v1 against anyone who has been playing since before last tuesday, to fix it a/ buff wpf so you can effectively hybridise without it being a massively uphill struggle, or b/ nerf athletics in armour so spamhanders, OOOPS i mean 2handers cannot just walk around behind your shield, or c/ I dunno, increase upkeep costs so 50+ armour is not the norm?, or d/ I dunno I had more but gf just walked in and I forgot them derp.
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Revert some changes you did in the past when hoplites had their greatest ally polestagger. Also buff them a little bit more. What I'm thinking:
Awlpike, Ashwood Pike, Boar Spear, War Spear, Red Tassel Spear, Double Sided Lance and Forks - 1 slot
Awlpike and Ashwood Pike - sheatable
Awlpike - can be used with shield
Also buff Awlpike price by 2k gold.
What this change will do?
It will give polearm users who aren't using pikes/long spears a way to fend off cav. Also hoplites will be able to switch to four directional polearm while dueling someone which will make them pretty strong opponent.
I wouldnt change the amount of slots.
I wouldnt make the unsheathables, sheathable. (Those are too long to throw on your back easily and effectively. If you have to drop it, just remember where you dropped it. :rolleyes:
I WOULD make the Pike usable with shield, now that there is no stagger. (Has the stagger gotten to the non-EU servers yet? if not, well I dont support this until it does)
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I wouldnt make the unsheathables, sheathable. (Those are too long to throw on your back easily and effectively. If you have to drop it, just remember where you dropped it. :rolleyes:
Im sorry, awlpike is more unwieldy than a greatsword? Send me your dealers phone number pls, he must be sellin you that good shit.
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I didnt say more unwieldy, I said it was LONGER.
I dunno about you, but I think it would take me alot less time and lack of mobility, to have a 5 foot sword in a sheath on my back, then trying to get sheathed, and then manuever with an 10 foot+ heavy wood pole some how 'sheathed'? to my back? To be honest, anything longer than a bec, a bill, or a boar, really shouldnt be sheathable. If even those.
If I was argueing 'unwieldy' though?
Where did you get this idea that an Awepike is less unwieldy than a Greatsword? Maybe while swinging/fighting with it, yes, but carrying around? I think your the one smokin the good stuff... lol
Polearms in general are meant to be cast away/aside when the fighting gets in TOO close, youd get killed while your trying to sheath the damned thing.... :lol:
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Currently awlpike is sheatable, ashwood pike isn't. But ashwood pike can be used with a shield, awlpike can't because of high damage and polestagger which is now gone.
My idea is to make all spears shorter than 175 sheatable, which will revitalize 1h/pole cav hybrid because light lance would become sheatable. Of course, stats nerf should come along with it but I want to see more Light Lances around. Heavy Lance is the most popular lance and that's going on for year or more. That should change imho.
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pls stop
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Here's an idea, for spears (that is, forks, warspears and such - not the light lance) which are usable on horse, unfuck the radius. So you can lance using a lance with retard radius or use a shorter spear-type thing.
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Here's an idea, for spears (that is, forks, warspears and such - not the light lance) which are usable on horse, unfuck the radius. So you can lance using a lance with retard radius or use a shorter spear-type thing.
This is good
big +1
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pls stop
Why? You don't like hybrids?
I do and that's why I'm suggesting this.
I've been playing pure builds for year and a half and I must tell you that they are boring.
Most of you aren't aware of that fact since you're using retire option frequently.
But the thing is, many people will stop to retire because recent changes allow them to farm heirloom points while playing on alts.
They'll be forced to play their mains because of strategus but they'll become very bored because their mains will be pure builds because hybrids suck atm.
Buff to hybrids will make this mod a lot better.
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I'd like to see all weapons over 145 length, unsheathable. Maybe in addition, lower upkeep significantly on spear based polearms, and raise their stab damage a bit too.
What I think this would do, is more people would grab a utility spear, thus lowering cav effectiveness (alot of people complain but cant pinpoint why they feel Cav is OP - evereyone/ alot more people carry spears, and learn to use them - Bam! Cav nerf, without nerfing the class AND a more realistic looking battlefield.)
The whole unsheathable thing, would force people who where real hybrids to throw thier 'reach' weapon to the ground, and deal with inclose more realistically, without an unrealistic switchout at will, which would, flow-wise resemble a REAL melee battle much more.
Also, make running with any weapon over 145 length, and over 'a certain' weight, affected with a larger penalty, so that the max running speed with a long heavy polearm is more realistic and nerfed.
And while your at it, take away the stab length on 2 handers. AND possibly, lower the amount of damage a bit on their Stab ONLY.
It would give a boost to the dedicated 1 handers also, that do alot of dirty work, and dont get as many kill opportunities as they would on a real battlefield in general. Not a numbers type boost, but a boost relative to the other classes, because the cav now is dealing with more spears, and all polearms guys, from dedicated, to support, to back-up weapon, are now dealing with non-sheathability and max running speed nerf.
Then you would have the dynamic of all classes of polearmers deciding when faced by an incoming wall of shields to either fight with less running speed,
OR if its just a anti cav stick/back up for less outnumbered situations' - drop that long pole and run for it -more like in rl,
Press play, and see what happens.
Meh, just thinking outloud, heh.
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Meh. The thing is, I remember a time when not a lot of people did play cavalry. The reason being it was much worse then it is now (before the charge+hp+everything buff and the long long series of archer nerfs). The changes swung too much in the other direction; archer emplacements are not "oh crap" now, since a heirloomed unarmoured horse can take 2-3 arrows without too many worries and is even more agile and fast then it used to be. If riding away, it can take even more arrows. Horse charge/hp buffs and archery nerfs made cavalry a lot more attractive; and throwing and crossbows are not as damaging as they used to be way back. Now a horse can indeed survive a sideshot from a MW arbalest, no worries. Silly.
And crpg has devolved into a random charge mentality, I remember old pecores server with lots of open random plains on rotation - this was before archery was nerfed to the extent it is now - and there were a lot more shieldwalls and tactics overall. Currently it's a lot of random charging herp derp stuff.
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You're brining realism arguments here while I'm trying to buff hybrids. I've already explained the reason why I want to buff hybrids.
Spears shorter than 145 are a bit short to deal with cav effectively, even with a shield.
Picking up stuff in this game is pain in the ass because it's buggy and hard to highlight them. That's my main problem with unsheatable weapons. If it was easier to pick up stuff ground the ground I wouldn't mind it, however...
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Maybe thats where we differ most - I pick stuff up of the ground all the time - got your grass turned up to high? lol
But yeah I agree, 145 is kinda short, but that was kinda the point. Just because its not sheathable, doesnt necessarily mean less of them, I think it might just end up seeing it used more as a 'first engagement/anti-cav weapon, rather than a primary one, more often, IF (and this is key) you upped the stab damage and LOWERED upkeep price ALOT, and lowered the max run speed with one?
Plus, if we saw everyone carrying a utilty spear because theyre so cheap and effective (after my proposed changes), but they have to drop em the moment they really need their primary weapon, theyd be all over the ground lol
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Remove the shield penalties and add a second attack direction..
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I think it would be good to let awlpike be used with shield again after removing polestagger...
Honestly it would be good for the balance team to look at the full spectrum of what their "balance" will do to the game. Naturally that would include looking at spear/hoplite users after removing polestagger. A lot of changes in the past were made with polestagger in mind.
nope, awlpike is a 2 handed weapon.
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nope, awlpike is a 2 handed weapon.
Heh, your right, hadnt even thought about that lol
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no.
again.
yer still a twunt blind guy.
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While I agree that both hoplites and hybrids deserves some buffs, I will have to disagree with OP's suggestions.
Personally I suggest these changes.
Hoplites: Remove (or drastically reduce) the speed and damage penalty to use with a shield (at least for the spears/forks)
Hybrids: Increase wpp cost at higher wpf and buff wpp gained by WM.
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I belive Denbitre's hoplites are still quite deadly.
Of course, most of the times, they encounter players who never faced hoplites and think they can spam them as easily as a dehorsed cav with shield+heavy lance. And thus, they die.
But the animation is still fast enough, the shield still provides excellent cover from range, the spear can still rear horse AND outreach heavy lance thanks to the polearm+shield animation.
Hell, it's a good thing they got it a bit hard against dedicated 1h or 2h or Polearms with no shield, else they'd be good against all.
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KingGylpe is a pretty good player and excellent offensive player. With an poleaxe he can spam just like Ivani4, you'll have trouble to retaliate against him. Also he can block decently. He's not a noob with high shield skill like kinngrimm.
Best hoplites are decent but most are crap. Balance should take average player into account, not the very best.
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Bump.
Ranged weak -> too many cav riding around.
Buff hybrid hoplites to stop the cav.
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Well, whenever I cruise the battlefield as a 1hander, I take at least 6 shield skill, and chuck a nice round shield on my back, and I grab a bamboo spear. I grab the shield if ppl shoot me, carry the bamboo to support teammates and instagib cav, and drop it all when I need to fight. 1handers have no excuse not to be the swiss-army knife of the battlefield.
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I do agree but as I said, picking stuff from the ground can be pain in the ass. Sometimes you'll leave it on some hill and you'll have trouble to highlight it because it has fallen through texture or something. Also there is a lot of shit laying around and it isn't that easy to find the thing you're looking for.
That wouldn't be the problem if those few sec you spend picking up something you were left alone. No, those few seconds being unaware can get you killed because this game is full of cowards who play cavalry and who always prey on unaware targets (I'm peasant atm and most of them won't charge me frontally even though I don't have anti cav weapon).
That's why I don't like unsheatable weapons. That feature is realistic but not practical in engine which is full of glitches.
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Bump.
Ranged weak -> too many cav riding around.
Buff hybrid hoplites to stop the cav.
Buff ranged then.
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Strong ranged fucks up experience for almost everyone else. Also the slightest buff increase their numbers exponentially. I'll rather to see further hybrid archer buff than increase in bow damage output.
And stop asking for ranged buff and take some time to get back in the game. You used to be great glaive fighter, now I see you rolling some lame builds like HX...
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Ranged doesnt need a buff on the whole, more a re balancing crossbows are have too much accuracy over range. Archers need to invest in more powerdraw,by the look of things as i rarely die to bowfire anymore can take maybe 5 to 8 shots. the few heavy draw players there are can bring me down in 2.
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Bah, don't see much point playing infantry to be honest.
You used to be able to roll with spear+shield+glaive which was powerful - you had archer defense and horse defense to some extent (crafty lancers have no problem with this, but still everyone runs into a spear now and then), now you can't.
Which is not that much of a problem in itself, except... cavalry got buffed since I left (heirloom changes? great, now an arabian which is virtually impossible to shoot anyway when championed has 115 hp, same with courser, both survive a MW arbalest+MW bolts in the flank), then the stupid lancing angle nerf (which again is a buff to inf-killers to be honest, since the old lancers used to kill 1h cavalry and other lancers much easier), ranged nerfs...
Archers got turned into useless (for purposes of supporting teammates by killing horses and such, they are still very useful for killing infantry by headshots and staggering them and such) agiwhores which can't properly fend off cavalry but can run from any infantryman indefinitely and kite, cavalry got it's only real counter nerfed (which is ranged, like it or not, on an agile horse you can pick and choose what to engage), basically, don't know what the devs were thinking.
No amount of spears is going to stop the cavalry horde. Buy an agile horse, wait until infantryman is engaged, attack, if you see something pointy, pull back at last moment, if infantryman releases attack accelerate 0-100 and stab him in face.
What is even sillier is that then they try to balance it out with maps, introducing all sorts of idiotic townmaps which lag and turn into circuit running circus. Instead of giving more open plains and then rebalancing things so they work on open plains.
Maybe the solution is in halving horse HP across the board since ranged damage seems about halved. And before you all start crying, I was playing horseman when an archer oneshot your horse. It was frustrating often, yes. But that frustration kept everyone from derping around on horseback. Maybe then we could have some nice open field maps again.
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Meh, the 3 long spears (longspear, pike, bamboo) have never failed me when it comes to horses. Sure, first time you face nice lancer, he pulls the decell, provoke spear, then stab. But every trick works on everyone once.
As archer, horses are the one thing I have ZERO issues slaying, they are large targets, go down in about same number of hits as infantry, and cannot instantly change direction.
But you are right, not many recent changes have been for the better of balance, just making each class more limited so everyone plays it more and more like a douche.
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Meh, the 3 long spears (longspear, pike, bamboo) have never failed me when it comes to horses. Sure, first time you face nice lancer, he pulls the decell, provoke spear, then stab. But every trick works on everyone once.
Was more reffering to the warspear which can be used with shield and warspear+shield+glaive was overall a nice combo which could fend off most horses, be used to approach archers and fight them, and so on. Bamboo was usable with shield back then but it was incredibly ugly and pulled out of hammerspace and I never liked it... longspear didn't exist, and pulling pikes out of hammerspace was not my thing either (although it was an effective cavalry surprise to magically conjure a pike and stab the horse; at least until they started recognizing you)
Regardless, the OP's idea is to enable this type of outfit (warspear/fork/etc) + shield + polearm or 2h again, but I don't think that is the solution to cavalry hordes.
As for shooting horses, ye you can do it, but normally if I'm riding a champion courser it'll take anywhere from 4-6 arrows to go down, depending on speed and such. This is quite a lot, given you can ride away very fast. Riders with high shield skill also pick up some arrows with the shield typically, especially on smaller horses, due to the nature of the shield forcefield.
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We don't need no awlpike, just give us that turn-thrust back. My pike doesn't hit the enemy even if i hit.
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Ranged "fixed", cav status the same.
Reason: most archers don't shoot at horses because that's not the right way to pad your k/d.
Solution: buff hybrid hoplites!
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Ranged shoot horses. It is not uncommon to finish a round with 2-3 arrows sticking into my horse. As long as you don't get into a fight with a horse-shooting HA or run in front of a archer line, or charge a longbowman/crossbowman directly, even the lighter horses are totally fine for taking a few hits. Better horses like coursers and up can take quite a few hits provided you are not charging said archer/we.
It is more tempting (and frankly useful) to shoot the rider, anyway, unless he has a shield.
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If you want to make cavalry less prevalent, the only workable way is for ranged to kill horses significantly easier; if this would buff HA/HX too much vs other cav you could just make HA skill be one in 9 agi instead one in 6.
Combine that with more open maps and perhaps reduce the ability of archers to kite, and you have a much healthier game overall.
Hoplites could be buffed in regards to fighting infantry, but spear and shield is not a magical cavalry cure, counters were always ranged and other cav.
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Everyone wants to kill, to get that last sho/hit at enemy.
Most archers don't shoot at horses! Because they are fast and can took a lot of arrows from medium distance. Cavalry rarely comes near to archers, unless they are backstabbing.
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Well, I'm playing as hoplite now. It is just unique, and relies on teamwork to be effective. But it is not effective in 1v1 fights too. I use: Shield + One Handed + Spear (ashwood, preferably)
It is just a different class that requires a unique playstyle. And it certainly doesn't need a buff to be popular, but encouragement.
Edit: I don't know if you folks will like it or not, but I'm working on a hoplite guide at the moment. So that could be the encouragement hoplites need :)
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Well, I'm playing as hoplite now. It is just unique, and relies on teamwork to be effective. But it is not effective in 1v1 fights too. I use: Shield + One Handed + Spear (ashwood, preferably)
It is just a different class that requires a unique playstyle. And it certainly doesn't need a buff to be popular, but encouragement.
Edit: I don't know if you folks will like it or not, but I'm working on a hoplite guide at the moment. So that could be the encouragement hoplites need :)
+1. I can help the guide Ronin.
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Everyone wants to kill, to get that last sho/hit at enemy.
Most archers don't shoot at horses! Because they are fast and can took a lot of arrows from medium distance. Cavalry rarely comes near to archers, unless they are backstabbing.
If it took less arrows from a medium distance they'd be more inclined to shoot at horses. Although they do like to take a potshot at horses now and then. As do some crossbowmen. Most prefer to shoot rider instead, if he is shieldless, since it gets you a kill, takes less hits, and you don't have to deal with an angry infantryman.
But look at the cav on open maps, most go down by either other cavalrymen or ranged. Sure, someone now and then runs into a pike or spear or 2h sword, but this isn't a hard "counter" and eventually infantry will be distracted by other infantry, ranged, other cavalry and all other threats a poor footman has to worry about, and ripe for backstabbing.
And yeah, you're sort of right about buffing ranged overall being bad, but making horses less durable against it then they are now (I feel the balance has shifted far too much towards the horseman) would help reducing the number of horsemen more then giving infantry easier to access spears (which isn't bad in itself, I guess).
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Do NOT buff hybrids. This will lead to more "and a crossbow too" characters and make the game more of a FPS, with the rest of us forced to hide behind buildings and walls or wait with shields raised until one or other side wins the archer and crossbow exchange. We had that situation some months ago and it wasn't much fun - don't bring it back.
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+1. I can help the guide Ronin.
Oh great! Hoplite is a great class, that no one actually knows it's true power. More we inform of it's awesomeness, more people will play as hoplites.