Buff hoplites/hybrids

[Leshma]

pls stop

Why? You don't like hybrids?

I do and that's why I'm suggesting this.

I've been playing pure builds for year and a half and I must tell you that they are boring.

Most of you aren't aware of that fact since you're using retire option frequently.

But the thing is, many people will stop to retire because recent changes allow them to farm heirloom points while playing on alts.

They'll be forced to play their mains because of strategus but they'll become very bored because their mains will be pure builds because hybrids suck atm.

Buff to hybrids will make this mod a lot better.

[Vingnir the Wanderer]

I'd like to see all weapons over 145 length, unsheathable.   Maybe in addition, lower upkeep significantly on spear based polearms, and raise their stab damage a bit too.

What I think this would do, is more people would grab a utility spear, thus lowering cav effectiveness (alot of people complain but cant pinpoint why they feel Cav is OP - evereyone/ alot more people carry spears, and learn to use them - Bam! Cav nerf, without nerfing the class AND a more realistic looking battlefield.)

The whole unsheathable thing, would force people who where real hybrids to throw thier 'reach' weapon to the ground, and deal with inclose more realistically, without an unrealistic switchout at will, which would, flow-wise resemble a REAL melee battle much more.

Also, make running with any weapon over 145 length, and over 'a certain' weight,  affected with a larger penalty, so that the max running speed with a long heavy polearm is more realistic and nerfed.


And while your at it, take away the stab length on 2 handers.  AND possibly, lower the amount of damage a bit on their Stab ONLY.

It would give a boost to the dedicated 1 handers also, that do alot of dirty work, and dont get as many kill opportunities as they would on a real battlefield in general. Not a numbers type boost, but a boost relative to the other classes, because the cav now is dealing with more spears, and all polearms guys, from dedicated, to support, to back-up weapon, are now dealing with non-sheathability and max running speed nerf.

Then you would have the dynamic of all classes of polearmers deciding when faced by an incoming wall of shields to either fight with less running speed,
OR if its just a anti cav stick/back up for less outnumbered situations'  - drop that long pole and run for it -more  like in rl,

Press play, and see what happens.

Meh, just thinking outloud, heh.

[bruce]

Meh. The thing is, I remember a time when not a lot of people did play cavalry. The reason being it was much worse then it is now (before the charge+hp+everything buff and the long long series of archer nerfs). The changes swung too much in the other direction; archer emplacements are not "oh crap" now, since a heirloomed unarmoured horse can take 2-3 arrows without too many worries and is even more agile and fast then it used to be. If riding away, it can take even more arrows. Horse charge/hp buffs and archery nerfs made cavalry a lot more attractive; and throwing and crossbows are not as damaging as they used to be way back. Now a horse can indeed survive a sideshot from a MW arbalest, no worries. Silly.

And crpg has devolved into a random charge mentality, I remember old pecores server with lots of open random plains on rotation - this was before archery was nerfed to the extent it is now - and there were a lot more shieldwalls and tactics overall. Currently it's a lot of random charging herp derp stuff.

[Leshma]

You're brining realism arguments here while I'm trying to buff hybrids. I've already explained the reason why I want to buff hybrids.

Spears shorter than 145 are a bit short to deal with cav effectively, even with a shield.

Picking up stuff in this game is pain in the ass because it's buggy and hard to highlight them. That's my main problem with unsheatable weapons. If it was easier to pick up stuff ground the ground I wouldn't mind it, however...

[Vingnir the Wanderer]

Maybe thats where we differ most - I pick stuff up of the ground all the time - got your grass turned up to high? lol

But yeah I agree, 145 is kinda short, but that was kinda the point. Just because its not sheathable, doesnt necessarily mean less of them, I think it might just end up seeing it used more as a 'first engagement/anti-cav weapon, rather than a primary one, more often, IF (and this is key) you upped the stab damage and LOWERED upkeep price ALOT, and lowered the max run speed with one?

Plus, if we saw everyone carrying a utilty spear because theyre so cheap and effective (after my proposed changes), but they have to drop em the moment they really need their primary weapon, theyd be all over the ground lol

[Gravoth_iii]

Remove the shield penalties and add a second attack direction..

[Digglez]

I think it would be good to let awlpike be used with shield again after removing polestagger...

Honestly it would be good for the balance team to look at the full spectrum of what their "balance" will do to the game.  Naturally that would include looking at spear/hoplite users after removing polestagger.  A lot of changes in the past were made with polestagger in mind.

nope, awlpike is a 2 handed weapon.

[Vingnir the Wanderer]

nope, awlpike is a 2 handed weapon.

Heh, your right, hadnt even thought about that lol

[Zisa]

no.
again.
yer still a twunt blind guy.

[Jarlek]

While I agree that both hoplites and hybrids deserves some buffs, I will have to disagree with OP's suggestions.

Personally I suggest these changes.
Hoplites: Remove (or drastically reduce) the speed and damage penalty to use with a shield (at least for the spears/forks)
Hybrids: Increase wpp cost at higher wpf and buff wpp gained by WM.

[Bulzur]

I belive Denbitre's hoplites are still quite deadly.

Of course, most of the times, they encounter players who never faced hoplites and think they can spam them as easily as a dehorsed cav with shield+heavy lance. And thus, they die.

But the animation is still fast enough, the shield still provides excellent cover from range, the spear can still rear horse AND outreach heavy lance thanks to the polearm+shield animation.
Hell, it's a good thing they got it a bit hard against dedicated 1h or 2h or Polearms with no shield, else they'd be good against all.

[Leshma]

KingGylpe is a pretty good player and excellent offensive player. With an poleaxe he can spam just like Ivani4, you'll have trouble to retaliate against him. Also he can block decently. He's not a noob with high shield skill like kinngrimm.

Best hoplites are decent but most are crap. Balance should take average player into account, not the very best.

[Leshma]

Bump.

Ranged weak -> too many cav riding around.

Buff hybrid hoplites to stop the cav.

[BlindGuy]

Well, whenever I cruise the battlefield as a 1hander, I take at least 6 shield skill, and chuck a nice round shield on my back, and I grab a bamboo spear. I grab the shield if ppl shoot me, carry the bamboo to support teammates and instagib cav, and drop it all when I need to fight. 1handers have no excuse not to be the swiss-army knife of the battlefield.

[Leshma]

I do agree but as I said, picking stuff from the ground can be pain in the ass. Sometimes you'll leave it on some hill and you'll have trouble to highlight it because it has fallen through texture or something. Also there is a lot of shit laying around and it isn't that easy to find the thing you're looking for.

That wouldn't be the problem if those few sec you spend picking up something you were left alone. No, those few seconds being unaware can get you killed because this game is full of cowards who play cavalry and who always prey on unaware targets (I'm peasant atm and most of them won't charge me frontally even though I don't have anti cav weapon).

That's why I don't like unsheatable weapons. That feature is realistic but not practical in engine which is full of glitches.