cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 20, 2012, 07:48:08 am

Title: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 20, 2012, 07:48:08 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo

I think the Katana needs a buff. It's stab is ridiculous and it's too slow. As shown by this scientific study into how boss the Katana is and how not boss the long sword is we can clearly see Katana needs a buff.

I say it should have

105 speed

40 cut
40 thrust

This seems fair and historically accurate, the best kind of accurate.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Bobthehero on May 20, 2012, 09:45:34 am
That's about as scientific as the tests I've done with my own arming sword, and I was piss drunk.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Christo on May 20, 2012, 10:30:42 am
lol, this video again.

Isn't biased at all, hehe.

Stuff like the pre-cut ice block for the Katana, it's a classic.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: _Sebastian_ on May 20, 2012, 11:00:17 am
Oh no not this shity video again.
There is already a thread about it.

If you have eyes...
you can see that the long sword is completly blunt, from the ice block test till the end.
This video is made by some stupid americans with no knowledge of historical weapons and they just push the pseudo "awesomeness" of the katana much more higher,
so this video is a piece of shit... not more.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: zagibu on May 20, 2012, 01:09:25 pm
It still needs a thrust buff, though. 16 pierce is ridiculously low. Make it 19 or 20.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 20, 2012, 01:25:23 pm
Quote
105 speed

40 cut
40 thrust

HAHA. katana is gay as it is atm , i don't want it to be buffed or nerfed, i want it to be removed. i don't really know whats the point on adding shit like katana/weaboo shit, but not add super fucking cool armors and others stuff what has been suggested many times.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Adamar on May 20, 2012, 02:31:29 pm
Just remove katana and be done with this crap.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 20, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
I don't understand the katana hate. It is a bit too fast (so is longsword but yeah whatever). Next you guys will be going after the Nodachi and throwing stars... Other players aren't allowed to have fun if it impacts on your ridiculous notion of 'realism'?

I'd be for renaming it to 'Strange sword' like it used to be, to represent the fact that a european or middle eastern warrior seeing this weapon for the first time would have one thing to say about it... 'Thats a very strange sword'.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Laufknoten on May 20, 2012, 03:27:31 pm
Chill guys, it's just the random katana troll thread that pops up every few months. :D

edit: Love the video "lets test a tool that is designed for cutting against a blunt piece of steel. Oh surprise, the katana cuts better. Derp."
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BlindGuy on May 20, 2012, 03:53:17 pm
Japanese 11th century (yes, katana is 11th century technology) steel was fucking shit.

vs

European 15th century steel


If you blocked a longsword with a katana, you would be left holding a katana hilt and wondering why you ever bothered comparing. Its shit, but thats historical issue.

Now lets look at physics: stab at armour with a curved, thin weapon made from low quality steel, your gonna bend it at best, more likely to just snap it. The shape is wrong for stabbing, loading the center of the blade with all the impact, and the point is not designed to penetrate armour.

Now lets consider some stuff: HOLLYWOOD and Akira Kurosawa have a LOT to answer for, the samurai was NOT a master swordsman by nature, he was:

1/ a Horse archer. ALL samurais that fought (being a samurai did NOT mean you were a warrior, it was just a class definition) where HORSE ARCHERS

2/ a Polearmer: The Yari and Naginata where the main melee weapons of samurai, along with the bamboo spear.

A katana was a emergency, last chance, desperation weapon, to be used if ALL else had failed. They were decent enough in 11th century, but were not changed in design for 900 YEARS! By the 13th century, the armour had improved to the point that using a katana on a battlefield was virtually suicide. They were reserved for ceremonial display, ritual suicide, and duels of honour between nancyboys.

Samurai weapons in crpg are: Hafted Blade, long hafted blade, bamboo spear, yumi, military scythe, double sided lance, maybe some more Ive forgotten.


Now lets consider ninja, the shinobi: There ARE in crpg MANY ninja weapons. Some of them are: bamboo spear, military sickle, shortened military scythe, studded warclub (bit chinese but its ok), staffs, stones, scythe. Lets keep in mind who ninjas where, and what they did:

1/ Spies. Ninja were peasants by birth, and were hired to listen in to pub conversations, peasant meetings, and blend in.

2/ Terrorists/Unresters: Hired to weaken an enemy population's trust in their fuedal lord, they would destroy cooperative crop storages, and incite unrest among peasants, requiring the samurai to expend time and energy quelling them.

3/ Sabotage: ninja trained hard to be able to infiltrate castles and set them on fire, to shorten sieges.

4/ Mercenaries: they were used alongside peasant militias as skirmishers and low value infantry, usually as fodder for enemy cavalry charges, allowing the main forces (consisting of cavalry) to charge into enemy forces from the side, taking the glory.


ASSASINATION: Samurai's pubicly held to their code of honour and ethics, much as medieval knights were pubicly bound to the code of chivalry. Since we KNOW that these codes were stuck to only as long as it was productive, we can safely assume that assasins where samurai, since their combat prowess would far outstrip that of a ninja, who is, essentially, a very sneaky peasant.

Since we established that samurai did not use katana, and that carrying a katana as a ninja would have made them pretty fucking useless as an infiltrator, they would not have carried one either.

The use of pyjama's in blacks, dark reds and blues, by ninja is a hollywood carryon, developted from the japanese operatic mechanic of having a stagehand (who wore dark colours so the audience knew to ignore their presence onstage) murder a main character of the opera, leading everyone to understand he was murdered by stealth.

So now we have established that:

1/ Neither samurai nor ninja used katana

2/ Ninja did NOT wear dark colours, in nicely colourordenated suits,

WHY o WHY do you wear that silly gear and use katana yet call yourself ninja? Just grab a Kuyak and a greatsword, and blend in with the 80% of the players who do this, THAT is what a ninja would do.


Back to topic: katana was functional as a peasant killing weapon in the 11th century, and should not be even considered a sword, when compared to the vastly technologically superior european weapons of the 14th-16th century, ie the Longsword.

If anything needs removing though, its blocking from greatswords: the longsword was the largest sword to EVER, at ANY POINT in history, be used as a standalone weapon. Greatswords had the simple function of being killing tools: you were not expected to duel with it, nor would it be possible, their use was to cleave the heads of the light infantry of the 16th-17th centuries, who in turn stood inside pike formations, to be deployed in the event of 2 pike formations locking together, the light infantry would then crouch under the pikes, and close on front line of enemy, stabbing their feet, groin and legs. The greatsworders would then step past the pikemen and brutally beat the light infantry back. Very few ppl alive could wield a greatsword in the manner of a longsword, which was probably the very apex of double bladed swords, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y As we see there, even though they are just demonstrating, the longsword is very fast, and multiple uses of it would mean it far outstripped a greatsworder, or a katana monkey.

/rant.

SO MUCH is wrong with crpg, but katana stab is not part of it. Removing blocking from pikes, longspears, greatswords and great axes would be a start towards improving the game. Buffing what is already a ridiculously overpowered sword *the katan* is not needed in any way.

Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 20, 2012, 04:46:07 pm
LOL, Blindguy. The fuck you on about. Ninjas are badass not some ghey people hiding in the crowd. Only reason Ninjas are hard to see is because black cloth is impossible to see unless you wear glasses. And for the record, we all know that ninjas used a ninja-to, not a katana, but do you see a ninja-to anywhere in cRPG?

There are only 3 facts about ninjas. The rest is up to the ninja in question, as long as it is totally badass. There 3 facts are:
1.    Ninjas are mammals.
2.    Ninjas fight ALL the time.
3.    The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people.
Source: Hamburger, Robert. 2005, "Ninja Facts"
Available: http://www.realultimatepower.net/
Retrieved: 20.5.2012


The katana is very balanced as it is. You can't make it historically accurate because that would be unfair to you kiddies who like playing knights vs. princesses lol. Regarding that metal bollocks you wrote about katana breaking. Well MY katana is made of spanish steel, because I can afford it, because I don't spend all day in my plate pantaloons.

(click to show/hide)

Also, some guy once said that he heard some guy do something cool with a katana: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,24724.msg357087.html#msg357087

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BlindGuy on May 20, 2012, 07:37:00 pm

Regarding that metal bollocks you wrote about katana breaking. Well MY katana is made of spanish steel,

No, sorry, Toledo steel was a great leap forward in metalurgy, but number of japanese people who had access to it prior to 1800: ZERO.

Katana was a nice design to look at, an artistic masterpiece, lovely display item. Value as a weapon: Poor. Unable to deflect a blow, unable to pierce armour, unable to be halfsworded. Needs realistic stats tbh

Speed 99
Cut 30
Pierce 20

There, stab is buffed, be happy.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Adamar on May 20, 2012, 07:37:55 pm
Trolling admin day.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: ArchonAlarion on May 20, 2012, 09:15:44 pm
Blind guy wins, but Khorin survives a shamefur defeat by referencing Real Ultimate Power.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 20, 2012, 10:48:18 pm
No, sorry, Toledo steel was a great leap forward in metalurgy, but number of japanese people who had access to it prior to 1800: ZERO.
Do I look japanese to you?

(click to show/hide)

No. I'm an adventurer from Zululand and I visited the temples of Nippon where I learned the art of crafting a katana, then I fought around the world(a la Russel Crowe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-DblXaqQMk)) 'til I wound up in Spain and made me a proper sword(before that I used a zulustaff as taught by my grandfather Hubhub seen here: http://youtu.be/Svkj_e_uh-8?t=2m10s). After that I was thrown in to an alternate dimension where everything sort of resembled Earth, but wasn't actually Earth by Aku, the shapeshifting master of darkness. But the weirdest thing about this place is that some people seem to think it's Earth, when it clearly isn't. The graphics aren't nearly as good. Mindblowing, that.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on May 20, 2012, 10:51:22 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo

I think the Katana needs a buff. It's stab is ridiculous and it's too slow. As shown by this scientific study into how boss the Katana is and how not boss the long sword is we can clearly see Katana needs a buff.

I say it should have

105 speed

40 cut
40 thrust

This seems fair and historically accurate, the best kind of accurate.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: zagibu on May 21, 2012, 02:15:14 am
If hiltslash was out of the game, noone would ever whine about katana anymore.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Shatter on May 21, 2012, 03:50:33 am
Now lets consider ninja, the shinobi: There ARE in crpg MANY ninja weapons. Some of them are: bamboo spear, military sickle, shortened military scythe, studded warclub (bit chinese but its ok), staffs, stones, scythe. Lets keep in mind who ninjas where, and what they did:

1/ Spies. Ninja were peasants by birth, and were hired to listen in to pub conversations, peasant meetings, and blend in.

2/ Terrorists/Unresters: Hired to weaken an enemy population's trust in their fuedal lord, they would destroy cooperative crop storages, and incite unrest among peasants, requiring the samurai to expend time and energy quelling them.

3/ Sabotage: ninja trained hard to be able to infiltrate castles and set them on fire, to shorten sieges.

4/ Mercenaries: they were used alongside peasant militias as skirmishers and low value infantry, usually as fodder for enemy cavalry charges, allowing the main forces (consisting of cavalry) to charge into enemy forces from the side, taking the glory.


ASSASINATION: Samurai's pubicly held to their code of honour and ethics, much as medieval knights were pubicly bound to the code of chivalry. Since we KNOW that these codes were stuck to only as long as it was productive, we can safely assume that assasins where samurai, since their combat prowess would far outstrip that of a ninja, who is, essentially, a very sneaky peasant.

Since we established that samurai did not use katana, and that carrying a katana as a ninja would have made them pretty fucking useless as an infiltrator, they would not have carried one either.

The use of pyjama's in blacks, dark reds and blues, by ninja is a hollywood carryon, developted from the japanese operatic mechanic of having a stagehand (who wore dark colours so the audience knew to ignore their presence onstage) murder a main character of the opera, leading everyone to understand he was murdered by stealth.

So now we have established that:

1/ Neither samurai nor ninja used katana

2/ Ninja did NOT wear dark colours, in nicely colourordenated suits,

WHY o WHY do you wear that silly gear and use katana yet call yourself ninja? Just grab a Kuyak and a greatsword, and blend in with the 80% of the players who do this, THAT is what a ninja would do.
Just some clarifications:

Not all ninjas were peasants. Many ninjas were also Samurai. The Iga and Koga Clans are famous for their professional ninjas, yet they were noble families. Yes, Samurai have a code of honor but in battle and warfare, you can bend the rules a bit. Samurai is a social class, ninjas are people who perform one or more of the roles of a ninja (catching thieves, spying, assassinations, information gathering, scouting, guarding castles, etc). The roles are not mutually exclusive.

On ninja outfits. The whole point of all ninja outfits is to blend in. This could vary from dressing up as a monk, to wearing commoner clothes, to even wearing all white on a night mission during a full moon. Blacks, dark blues, browns are common colors for ninjas because those are the colors most people wore at the time and blend in well during night missions. They might not be wearing the ninja pyjamas, but the colors are correct.

On katanas. Being a ninja often has little to do with fighting. Ninjutsu is not a martial art and ninja scrolls almost never talk about fighting techniques. Ninjutsu is all about espionage and what comes with it. More well trained ninjas are often schooled in some fighting techniques though (as you can imagine a samurai who has ninja skills). If you were caught as a ninja, having a sword wouldn't help that much. Yet, some ninjas still used swords (it also depends on what kind of ninja activity they were partaking in).    O-wakizashis were common (a sword in between the length of a wakizashi and a katana). The swords were commonly used for boosting oneself over a wall and could have modifications like replacing the metal handguard with a leather one to prevent rattling.

My point is that, yes the cRPG ninja is not entirely accurate but it is close enough (looks-wise at least, I don't know about a ninja running around in the middle of the battlefield :P).
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: owens on May 21, 2012, 04:23:27 am
Give wakizashi 2h mode like cold steel did.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Gomer on May 21, 2012, 04:53:50 am
Combine longsword and Katana and make a 2 bladed weapon. Solved
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Dalfador on May 21, 2012, 04:57:54 am
last thing we need is more bundle of stickss with katanas
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Gomer on May 21, 2012, 04:58:48 am
last thing we need is more bundle of stickss with katanas
We need straight men with Katanas
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2012, 05:36:08 am
God I love these threads. It had been way too long since the last one.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Gomer on May 21, 2012, 06:32:38 am
God I love these threads. It had been way too long since the last one.
It's cause I just got unmuted
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 21, 2012, 06:40:20 am
lol
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Gomer on May 21, 2012, 06:41:47 am
lol
Frank I could use ur input! Click the Support this link on my tag or click this if you'r scared of me posting hyper links to child porn again. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,32238.0.html
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BlindGuy on May 21, 2012, 08:07:02 am
Just some clarifications:

Not all ninjas were peasants. Many ninjas were also Samurai. The Iga and Koga Clans are famous for their professional ninjas, yet they were noble families.

Stopped reading when you got this wrong. Neither were families as you or I understand, and they were not noble or samurai. Just village clans in deep valleys that hired themselves out alot as mercenaries. History vs myth, you chose myth, I stop reading. Good day sir.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Gomer on May 21, 2012, 08:41:39 am
Stopped reading when you got this wrong. Neither were families as you or I understand, and they were not noble or samurai. Just village clans in deep valleys that hired themselves out alot as mercenaries. History vs myth, you chose myth, I stop reading. Good day sir.
Your grammar is horrific. I stopped reading half way through the first sentence due to not being able to understand wtf you mean. So please by all means don't take this personal but, Go fuck yourself.

Edit: Well your grammar is actually fine but you worded that horribly let me fix it.

Shatter your a cunt and I call bullshit go commit suicide you fucking hippy piece of communist shit.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Shatter on May 21, 2012, 09:14:13 am
Stopped reading when you got this wrong. Neither were families as you or I understand, and they were not noble or samurai. Just village clans in deep valleys that hired themselves out alot as mercenaries. History vs myth, you chose myth, I stop reading. Good day sir.
I guess this is what happens when you try to have a discussion on an internet forum. "I read 2 lines and am done." When I wrote my post I kind of breezed through it, so I will explain more to my point.

This isn't history vs. myth. I am not saying the stories about a koga ninja sneaking into a castle and killing hundreds of guards are true. I am saying the clans and samurai families from these regions themselves were real. Just because Apollo didn't send a plague through the Greek camp doesn't mean there was no city called Troy. I agree that there is an incredible amount of myth surrounding the clans. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word noble because they are a kind of country nobility. The accounts of the city-elite refer to the Iga as "ji-samurai," as these kind of leaders of a poor, agricultural area. Yet, it's hard to imagine clans that control large amounts of land as poor people though and is more to the fact that it is city elites talking down about "country folk." They were in control of their own lands and were wealthy people by most standards. Samurai families had lived in those areas for years before any of the ninja business ever took hold. Whether or not all the fantastic tales about the Iga and Koga are true (of course most are made up), it shows that the idea of samurai as ninja, or having ninja clans was present.

I am not saying the high members of the clans were partaking in super dangerous missions or were doing low class tasks. You don't have to be a "full-time" ninja to be called a ninja. Leading a group of soldiers in the enemy camp at night time could get you labelled shinobi. Scouting out enemy fortifications or camps could get you labelled a shinobi. This idea of the "professional, full-time ninja" is misleading. Even a person who simply received money for giving information can be called a shinobi. Very few ninja were "full-time." So when I am saying samurai could be ninja, I am not saying they spend all their time being ninjas, but that they have a set of skills and are trained in ninja techniques.

Hattori Hanzo, another figure surrounded by myth, is both a samurai and a ninja. I doesn't matter if anything revolving around his actions are true. The fact that the idea of a samurai being a ninja exists in stories demonstrates that a samurai could be considered a ninja. My point was that ninja were not just peasants. Ninja came from many different social levels.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BlindGuy on May 21, 2012, 10:59:22 am
Nope. Ninja were peasants, you cannot ATTAIN samurai rank by valiant deeds, its a birthright. Just because samurai used dirty tricks in anonimity doesnt make them a ninja, they are still a samurai, the trained shinobi were peasants, if they had been noble by birth they wouldnt have been called shinobi, they woulda been called samurai, and just because a peasant was a brave and noble warrior doesnt make them a samurai.

Myth is a whole other discussion: Troy was a city in Turkey. It was destroyed and raised many times. But the Illiad is not a myth, it's a story written by Homer. It's pretty good, but a bit longwinded. Some great cities were flooded prior to Greek classical age, when the meditarrenean landbridge to africa thru Gibraltar parted thru seismic activity. Thus the legend of Atlantis. The egyptians had a complex society long before Jesus, but the Isrealite ppl never lived there, but when a tribe who WAS enslaved there left via the red sea, they crossed at low tide, because their leader was wise enough to understand tidal action, and thus they called him a profit. All myths are based on actual events from long before, told and retold. But that is beside the point:

The time of the shinobi in japan was NOT long ago, it was less than a millenia ago, and I refer to factual accounts of what took place, europe isnt the only place that wrote things down, Japan has a great historic tradition and when mercenaries where hired, it wasnt a shady meeting in a back alley secret room, it was an organised contract, recorded by the clan leaders of whatever tribe was being hired. There is no room for myth when the events are recorded by accountants.

Do I look japanese to you?

Immaterial, no european would ever use a inferior sword design if using valuable steel. They wouldn't make a katana. African metalworking was best in the north, and they had superior weapon combinations to the katana also: Scimitar. When used correctly, the scimitar is close to impossible to defeat, simply because it is not held away from the body in the style of the japanese, it is more easily fought by european sword style, which has been seemingly forgotton or not understood by you guys: You DONT swing your weapon, block enemy, swing your weapon, nor do you use the avoid-swipe-avoid of the japanese sword schools, scimitar is held around the body and you rotate blade and body, with the weight of your body on the blunt back of the blade, european sword schools teach that you have your blade in a guard you like, and most duels prior to FENCING, the guard you chose vs. your opponent decided the victor, there would be ONE strike, one glissade, one dead man. Unfortunatly for modern tv/movies, fencing and early hollywood Robin Hood movies have most ppl convinced there is much parrying and slashing, this is NOT the case.

Back to your topic: You wouldnt need to make such a soft fat blade as the katana if using toledo steel, remember the japanese lapped their steel hundreds of times to get the strengh needed to slice even human flesh, I doubt you could even dent plate armour if you beat on it for hours with a katana, the steel is just too shit.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Vibe on May 21, 2012, 10:59:42 am
Oh this video... :lol:
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Bobthehero on May 21, 2012, 11:06:24 am
there would be ONE strike, one glissade, one dead man.

I disagree there, most of the time there'll be a parry or three, granted it is not as long as in movies, maybe 5 to 15 seconds at best.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Shatter on May 21, 2012, 11:29:50 am
Nope. Ninja were peasants, you cannot ATTAIN samurai rank by valiant deeds, its a birthright. Just because samurai used dirty tricks in anonimity doesnt make them a ninja, they are still a samurai, the trained shinobi were peasants, if they had been noble by birth they wouldnt have been called shinobi, they woulda been called samurai, and just because a peasant was a brave and noble warrior doesnt make them a samurai.

Myth is a whole other discussion: Troy was a city in Turkey. It was destroyed and raised many times. But the Illiad is not a myth, it's a story written by Homer. It's pretty good, but a bit longwinded. Some great cities were flooded prior to Greek classical age, when the meditarrenean landbridge to africa thru Gibraltar parted thru seismic activity. Thus the legend of Atlantis. The egyptians had a complex society long before Jesus, but the Isrealite ppl never lived there, but when a tribe who WAS enslaved there left via the red sea, they crossed at low tide, because their leader was wise enough to understand tidal action, and thus they called him a profit. All myths are based on actual events from long before, told and retold. But that is beside the point:

The time of the shinobi in japan was NOT long ago, it was less than a millenia ago, and I refer to factual accounts of what took place, europe isnt the only place that wrote things down, Japan has a great historic tradition and when mercenaries where hired, it wasnt a shady meeting in a back alley secret room, it was an organised contract, recorded by the clan leaders of whatever tribe was being hired. There is no room for myth when the events are recorded by accountants.
Well, you say your stuff is coming from historical accounts, and I would claim the same for my information. Yet, we can't really progress any further without citing sources which is needed for any proper historical discussion. I do not mind being corrected, so if you want to PM me some of your sources, I'd be happy to read them. I'm sorry for derailing the topic lol. (PS: Homer didn't technically "write" the Illiad but I'm sure you didn't mean it literally when you wrote your response :P) Cheers.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BlindGuy on May 21, 2012, 12:31:27 pm
I disagree there, most of the time there'll be a parry or three, granted it is not as long as in movies, maybe 5 to 15 seconds at best.

15 seconds? No, not in a fight to the death, unless both were very unskilled and wearing plate: remember, IRL, ONE hit is all it takes, once you are hit, you dead, if not, the time it take you to react to the pain: your dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc&feature=endscreen&NR=1
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Casimir on May 21, 2012, 12:50:52 pm
I like turtles
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 21, 2012, 02:08:49 pm
All that "Katana doesn't cut through plate" is pretty irrelevant when no swords cut through plate. Plate users fight more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI&feature=related not what Hollywood generally likes to depict. Piercing through plate generally requires the guy to lie down on the ground so you can apply as much force as possible for it.

And my character is south african, thank you very much, please read my ramblings more closely.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Laufknoten on May 21, 2012, 02:26:26 pm
15 seconds? No, not in a fight to the death, unless both were very unskilled and wearing plate: remember, IRL, ONE hit is all it takes, once you are hit, you dead, if not, the time it take you to react to the pain: your dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc&feature=endscreen&NR=1
No, like in every era there were way more wounded than dead people in medieval wars. Also surgery and wound treatment was more advanced than people think today. Also even some layers of cloth or leather could safe you from a cut and people didn't fight naked so it was not "1 hit = dead".
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BlindGuy on May 21, 2012, 03:55:27 pm
No, like in every era there were way more wounded than dead people in medieval wars. Also surgery and wound treatment was more advanced than people think today. Also even some layers of cloth or leather could safe you from a cut and people didn't fight naked so it was not "1 hit = dead".

Ok put on some layers of cloth and leather and then I will slash you with a longsword. I am willing to bet my house *flat* that you will not be fighting back after that slash.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Laufknoten on May 21, 2012, 05:03:34 pm
Ok put on some layers of cloth and leather and then I will slash you with a longsword. I am willing to bet my house *flat* that you will not be fighting back after that slash.
I'm not talking about a straight slash to the arm, sure that could end in dismemberment, even with cloth and leather protection. But in a real fight there was a lot of wrestling and often little space to get a good hit in so leather or even cloth could be enough to protect you from a not so perfect strike.
Besides that people were harder those days, even with a broken arm or similar wounds it wasn't unusual to keep on fighting. 
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BlindGuy on May 21, 2012, 11:52:34 pm

Besides that people were harder those days, even with a broken arm or similar wounds it wasn't unusual to keep on fighting.

?? thats the stupidest thing Ive read today. Good job.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Tomas on May 26, 2012, 02:32:26 am
Besides that people were harder those days, even with a broken arm or similar wounds it wasn't unusual to keep on fighting.

When I were a lad we used to go out into the cess pit behind our hovel and hack at each other's naked bodies with Flamberges for 3 hours every morning before going to work down t' Iron Mines for 26 hours a day, 9 days a week.  Each night we'd then spend 8 hours folding the iron we'd mined over and over again to turn it into a Super Flamberge and when we got home our Dad would test the blade with a full swing to our unprotected necks.  If t' blade were true we'd be decapitated and as a reward we'd be allowed to get 8 minutes of sleep standing up whilst eating a cold breakfast of hot coals before starting all over again.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Heeehehe on June 03, 2012, 05:01:31 pm
YES! katana should get the best trust or second to saracen straight sword and second best/ about the same slash with scimitar and it's kind and second after damascus, if there will be damascus
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Shinimas on June 03, 2012, 05:14:19 pm
Just fyi, ninja-to, aka a straight one-sided blade with a square tsuba, never existed. It's a product of the whore-mother of all myths - Hollywood. This weapon is pointless, it doesn't make sense, if a ninja or whoever the fuck else wanted to kill somebody with a sword, he'd use a katana or a similar existing sword, not invent a backwards ass design for no purpose other than to show off.

A katana, a real sword that was used on the battlefield, is a heavy two-handed sabre in essense. It's not magical. Fuck weaboos. I win. The end.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: engurrand on June 03, 2012, 11:39:53 pm
Katana is a shit weapon made for killing poor unarmed people.

True melee combat, as i have said before, is about getting the fuck in and grappling your foe and then stabbing a knife into his eyes and stomping this throat...

SERIOUSLY...

Go have a real duel, no larp or "martial arts" training or any of that bull shit... A no rules (okay no killing) armored duel you will see that VERY quickly it moves into ground work / grappling matches.

Why?

For with one parry, to then move forward into your foe and drop your weapon and grab his body, will render his weapon  ineffective. Bust out that knife and stab his face.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: BashirKhan on June 04, 2012, 08:23:44 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo

I think the Katana needs a buff. It's stab is ridiculous and it's too slow. As shown by this scientific study into how boss the Katana is and how not boss the long sword is we can clearly see Katana needs a buff.

I say it should have

105 speed

40 cut
40 thrust

This seems fair and historically accurate, the best kind of accurate.
Frank, i honestly hope your trolling thats the equivalent of a long dagger + Nodachi + A Hakzor lawlpoke  :wink:
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Vicious666 on June 04, 2012, 08:29:08 am
Japanese 11th century (yes, katana is 11th century technology) steel was fucking shit.

vs

European 15th century steel


If you blocked a longsword with a katana, you would be left holding a katana hilt and wondering why you ever bothered comparing. Its shit, but thats historical issue.

Now lets look at physics: stab at armour with a curved, thin weapon made from low quality steel, your gonna bend it at best, more likely to just snap it. The shape is wrong for stabbing, loading the center of the blade with all the impact, and the point is not designed to penetrate armour.

Now lets consider some stuff: HOLLYWOOD and Akira Kurosawa have a LOT to answer for, the samurai was NOT a master swordsman by nature, he was:

1/ a Horse archer. ALL samurais that fought (being a samurai did NOT mean you were a warrior, it was just a class definition) where HORSE ARCHERS

2/ a Polearmer: The Yari and Naginata where the main melee weapons of samurai, along with the bamboo spear.

A katana was a emergency, last chance, desperation weapon, to be used if ALL else had failed. They were decent enough in 11th century, but were not changed in design for 900 YEARS! By the 13th century, the armour had improved to the point that using a katana on a battlefield was virtually suicide. They were reserved for ceremonial display, ritual suicide, and duels of honour between nancyboys.

Samurai weapons in crpg are: Hafted Blade, long hafted blade, bamboo spear, yumi, military scythe, double sided lance, maybe some more Ive forgotten.


Now lets consider ninja, the shinobi: There ARE in crpg MANY ninja weapons. Some of them are: bamboo spear, military sickle, shortened military scythe, studded warclub (bit chinese but its ok), staffs, stones, scythe. Lets keep in mind who ninjas where, and what they did:

1/ Spies. Ninja were peasants by birth, and were hired to listen in to pub conversations, peasant meetings, and blend in.

2/ Terrorists/Unresters: Hired to weaken an enemy population's trust in their fuedal lord, they would destroy cooperative crop storages, and incite unrest among peasants, requiring the samurai to expend time and energy quelling them.

3/ Sabotage: ninja trained hard to be able to infiltrate castles and set them on fire, to shorten sieges.

4/ Mercenaries: they were used alongside peasant militias as skirmishers and low value infantry, usually as fodder for enemy cavalry charges, allowing the main forces (consisting of cavalry) to charge into enemy forces from the side, taking the glory.


ASSASINATION: Samurai's pubicly held to their code of honour and ethics, much as medieval knights were pubicly bound to the code of chivalry. Since we KNOW that these codes were stuck to only as long as it was productive, we can safely assume that assasins where samurai, since their combat prowess would far outstrip that of a ninja, who is, essentially, a very sneaky peasant.

Since we established that samurai did not use katana, and that carrying a katana as a ninja would have made them pretty fucking useless as an infiltrator, they would not have carried one either.

The use of pyjama's in blacks, dark reds and blues, by ninja is a hollywood carryon, developted from the japanese operatic mechanic of having a stagehand (who wore dark colours so the audience knew to ignore their presence onstage) murder a main character of the opera, leading everyone to understand he was murdered by stealth.

So now we have established that:

1/ Neither samurai nor ninja used katana

2/ Ninja did NOT wear dark colours, in nicely colourordenated suits,

WHY o WHY do you wear that silly gear and use katana yet call yourself ninja? Just grab a Kuyak and a greatsword, and blend in with the 80% of the players who do this, THAT is what a ninja would do.


Back to topic: katana was functional as a peasant killing weapon in the 11th century, and should not be even considered a sword, when compared to the vastly technologically superior european weapons of the 14th-16th century, ie the Longsword.

If anything needs removing though, its blocking from greatswords: the longsword was the largest sword to EVER, at ANY POINT in history, be used as a standalone weapon. Greatswords had the simple function of being killing tools: you were not expected to duel with it, nor would it be possible, their use was to cleave the heads of the light infantry of the 16th-17th centuries, who in turn stood inside pike formations, to be deployed in the event of 2 pike formations locking together, the light infantry would then crouch under the pikes, and close on front line of enemy, stabbing their feet, groin and legs. The greatsworders would then step past the pikemen and brutally beat the light infantry back. Very few ppl alive could wield a greatsword in the manner of a longsword, which was probably the very apex of double bladed swords, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y As we see there, even though they are just demonstrating, the longsword is very fast, and multiple uses of it would mean it far outstripped a greatsworder, or a katana monkey.

/rant.

SO MUCH is wrong with crpg, but katana stab is not part of it. Removing blocking from pikes, longspears, greatswords and great axes would be a start towards improving the game. Buffing what is already a ridiculously overpowered sword *the katan* is not needed in any way.


i have a phd  (read doctorate)  in japanase history filosofy and language  form the university of Bologna the most ancient university in all the word

1)  samurai was a master of swords,  majority of samuray was allowed to have that title that means, serving,  only after  exiting from a dojo (wich is a martial school ) where they where learning  how to use the dai-sho, (that mins long-short)       that where the 2 sword that a samurai was  OBBLIGATED to bring with him all the time  even at bed.     the katana,    and the wakizashi, many samurai where also bringing with them the tanto, a long knife  balanced, good to be used as throwing weapon but also used often for commit suicide, or hara-kiri that means cutting the belly,    or seppuku .
Even today there still some dojo that have over 1 thousand year of history.  many dojo where specialized in different weapon, from katana, to najinata (a long 2 hand katana), to   bo- jo  (long wood weapons) ,   even kusarigama  a long   chain weapon with  a steel ball and a curved blade on the 2 sides.  famously used by  ronin  called baiken shishido,  (considered by Miyamoto Musashi  itself his best duel and opponent )

2)  Polearmer, first of all,   najinata is not a pole, but a long 2h  katana used mainly by footman for kill  horseman,      the yari,  is a sort of spear, that where ONLY used by yari-ashigaru, that where  untrained paesant forced to serve in the army in times of needs.   was the weapon of the poor.


The katana was never used for commit suicide, that was the wakizashi or tanto,      katana where usually used  and tested,  against   dead condamned ppl, in executions.


yumi was a long bow, that where also a forced train for all the samurai, at list on majority of dojo, together with use of bo-ken, katana,  jo,  and martial arts.


Regards ninja  first of all nobody in japan called ninja : ninja, until the diffusion of japanese culture  in the middle 1950 , they where know as ninjutsutsukai, rappa, shinobimetsuke and they not where using katana but    tanto and Ninjato, short version of katana, kunai, shuriken,  bo shuriken,3-4-5 stars, 3 star nails, kamayari, ashiko,tekagi,fukumibari,makibishi, kyoketsu shogei etc etc
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Valknut on June 05, 2012, 09:31:37 pm

i have a phd  (read doctorate)  in japanase history filosofy and language  form the university of Bologna the most ancient university in all the word


Should had taken more English classes really...
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 05, 2012, 10:03:46 pm
he's clearly not a native english speaker if he went to a university in italy.

Did you understand what he was saying?  Then his communication was successful.

What's an awerness?
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Valknut on June 06, 2012, 03:51:27 pm

What's an awerness?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Ronin on June 06, 2012, 03:57:11 pm
FRANK THE TANK vs Another Troll

I say FRANK THE TANK should have

105 Speed

40 cut
40 thrust

This seems fair and historically accurate, the best kind of accurate.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 06, 2012, 05:13:00 pm


So maybe fix the misspelling in your signature before you critique others on their English?  Lest you be seen as an ignorant hypocrite. 
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Valknut on June 06, 2012, 06:14:02 pm
Haha to call me hypocritical is okay, but to call me ignorant isn't that a bit of an excruciating statement?
Anyways that was very astute of you to notice that, you really had to prove a point here, didn't you?

Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on June 06, 2012, 06:17:29 pm
Haha to call me hypocritical is okay, but to call me ignorant isn't that a bit of an excruciating statement?
Anyways that was very astute of you to notice that, you really had to prove a point here, didn't you?

No, I'm not one to nitpick, I was doing exactly what you were doing.  I really don't care how well someone's grammar is on the internet, or when speaking with them in person.  As long as I understand what is being said, then their purpose in communicating has been successful.

And I think calling you ignorant would be appropriate, for if you were to be so harsh about someone's grammar, it implies you are perfect in yours.  Maybe a little bit harsh :P
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Valknut on June 06, 2012, 07:10:27 pm
No, I'm not one to nitpick, I was doing exactly what you were doing.  I really don't care how well someone's grammar is on the internet, or when speaking with them in person.  As long as I understand what is being said, then their purpose in communicating has been successful.

And I think calling you ignorant would be appropriate, for if you were to be so harsh about someone's grammar, it implies you are perfect in yours.  Maybe a little bit harsh :P


Oh pardon I had failed to look like it was a joke in the first place. Wich is incredibly hard with just a line of text.
I was a bit precarious about the fact that he made a statement about the best univeristy in the word.

But truly I was more shocked that I am being called out for being ignorant, in wich case I am surrounded by fools and ignorants (IRL). And of that I try to dissociate from them.

PS: I do oblige Vicious666's post as it is with erudite knowledge, one of the few in my opinion.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on June 06, 2012, 08:20:43 pm
Bro, he said most ancient.

Means oldest.

Also why would that insult be so excruciating. It's internet words.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: engurrand on June 08, 2012, 11:12:37 am
Bro, he said most ancient.

Means oldest.

Also why would that insult be so excruciating. It's internet words.

The katana is at stake, bro.

Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Gwennifer on July 15, 2012, 01:45:44 am
Now lets look at physics: stab at armour with a curved, thin weapon made from low quality steel, your gonna bend it at best, more likely to just snap it. The shape is wrong for stabbing, loading the center of the blade with all the impact, and the point is not designed to penetrate armour.

The shape's actually a bit better for stabbing, but everything else in this post is right, including the low-quality steel stuff. I upvoted you.

But as a reminder, the steel of both cultures tended to get better with time. I wouldn't trust any 400 year old piece of metal over a newly forged sword from either one.

I necro'd cause your post needs to be stickied :x
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Strider on July 15, 2012, 04:22:33 am
40 stab is a huge exaggeration. No sword even has as high as 40 stab
It should be more like:
103 speed
37 swing cut
21 stab pierce

16 stab doesn't put a dent in it. Katana needs more stab damage. Every time I've used stab with a katana it has glanced.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Adamar on July 15, 2012, 05:22:56 am
FRANK THE TANK vs Another Troll

I say FRANK THE TANK should have

105 Speed

40 cut
40 thrust

This seems fair and historically accurate, the best kind of accurate.

You sick man, not even him deserves to be treated like that!
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: mulas on July 21, 2012, 05:49:29 am
15th century katana is superior to 15th century longsword. Did anyone see the show Deadliest warrior? There was an episode Samurai vs Viking, and a katana cuts through 3 pigs bodies in 1 strike.

Anyway, watch this video, the modern katana chop wood like an ax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsfGWkO7SM
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 21, 2012, 10:43:53 am
15th century katana is superior to 15th century longsword. Did anyone see the show Deadliest warrior? There was an episode Samurai vs Viking, and a katana cuts through 3 pigs bodies in 1 strike.

Anyway, watch this video, the modern katana chop wood like an ax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsfGWkO7SM


Your sword:
http://www.chenessinc.com/9260.htm

This uses modern manufacturing techniques...

Fail.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Ragnar on August 01, 2012, 01:58:21 am
15th century katana is superior to 15th century longsword. Did anyone see the show Deadliest warrior? There was an episode Samurai vs Viking, and a katana cuts through 3 pigs bodies in 1 strike.

Anyway, watch this video, the modern katana chop wood like an ax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsfGWkO7SM

the Katana is for oppressing no skill armor-less peasants and dueling (other Nodachi and Katanas)

the longsword and greatswords are for true warriors


 /thread
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Akhooey on August 11, 2012, 06:56:00 pm
LOL, the Katana is better forged and stronger than a longsword, the Knights and samurais were both good warriors.
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Laufknoten on August 11, 2012, 07:51:56 pm
LOL, the Katana is better forged and stronger than a longsword, the Knights and samurais were both good warriors.
You know that starting a sentence with "LOL" makes your statement invalid? 
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Bonze on August 12, 2012, 02:04:46 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s&playnext=1&list=PLC9007E8C721E5184&feature=results_video

5:58 loled  Katana ... :twisted:
6:35 Europan Steel   :mrgreen:
7:23 A new Weapon the  KatanaSAW very sharp ... :rolleyes:

katan is for sandpit warriors , long sword for real mens

Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: zagibu on August 12, 2012, 12:18:47 pm
I don't believe how anyone can say there is no historical reference for ninja-tos or even ninjas when a quick google search finds hundreds of them:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Aseplhood on August 12, 2012, 12:22:00 pm
All the time Katana bois QQing about it's poor stats.
Face it how it is, or be a real man, be a TEMPLAR
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Rebelyell on August 12, 2012, 01:08:53 pm
GAD WILZ IT!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Long Sword vs another sword
Post by: Kenouse on August 12, 2012, 01:56:02 pm
Two different weapons - the kantana wasnt made for blocking an incomming attack but rather avoiding it... The longsword could be used as blocking...
But 40 cut and 40 thrust on a kantana?

You sirius?