Poll

Buff Kutana stab

make same as long sword
18 (20.7%)
make same as awlpike
2 (2.3%)
make same as +3 awelpike
4 (4.6%)
make insta kill
63 (72.4%)

Total Members Voted: 87

Author Topic: Long Sword vs another sword  (Read 7423 times)

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Offline Vicious666

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2012, 08:29:08 am »
0
Japanese 11th century (yes, katana is 11th century technology) steel was fucking shit.

vs

European 15th century steel


If you blocked a longsword with a katana, you would be left holding a katana hilt and wondering why you ever bothered comparing. Its shit, but thats historical issue.

Now lets look at physics: stab at armour with a curved, thin weapon made from low quality steel, your gonna bend it at best, more likely to just snap it. The shape is wrong for stabbing, loading the center of the blade with all the impact, and the point is not designed to penetrate armour.

Now lets consider some stuff: HOLLYWOOD and Akira Kurosawa have a LOT to answer for, the samurai was NOT a master swordsman by nature, he was:

1/ a Horse archer. ALL samurais that fought (being a samurai did NOT mean you were a warrior, it was just a class definition) where HORSE ARCHERS

2/ a Polearmer: The Yari and Naginata where the main melee weapons of samurai, along with the bamboo spear.

A katana was a emergency, last chance, desperation weapon, to be used if ALL else had failed. They were decent enough in 11th century, but were not changed in design for 900 YEARS! By the 13th century, the armour had improved to the point that using a katana on a battlefield was virtually suicide. They were reserved for ceremonial display, ritual suicide, and duels of honour between nancyboys.

Samurai weapons in crpg are: Hafted Blade, long hafted blade, bamboo spear, yumi, military scythe, double sided lance, maybe some more Ive forgotten.


Now lets consider ninja, the shinobi: There ARE in crpg MANY ninja weapons. Some of them are: bamboo spear, military sickle, shortened military scythe, studded warclub (bit chinese but its ok), staffs, stones, scythe. Lets keep in mind who ninjas where, and what they did:

1/ Spies. Ninja were peasants by birth, and were hired to listen in to pub conversations, peasant meetings, and blend in.

2/ Terrorists/Unresters: Hired to weaken an enemy population's trust in their fuedal lord, they would destroy cooperative crop storages, and incite unrest among peasants, requiring the samurai to expend time and energy quelling them.

3/ Sabotage: ninja trained hard to be able to infiltrate castles and set them on fire, to shorten sieges.

4/ Mercenaries: they were used alongside peasant militias as skirmishers and low value infantry, usually as fodder for enemy cavalry charges, allowing the main forces (consisting of cavalry) to charge into enemy forces from the side, taking the glory.


ASSASINATION: Samurai's pubicly held to their code of honour and ethics, much as medieval knights were pubicly bound to the code of chivalry. Since we KNOW that these codes were stuck to only as long as it was productive, we can safely assume that assasins where samurai, since their combat prowess would far outstrip that of a ninja, who is, essentially, a very sneaky peasant.

Since we established that samurai did not use katana, and that carrying a katana as a ninja would have made them pretty fucking useless as an infiltrator, they would not have carried one either.

The use of pyjama's in blacks, dark reds and blues, by ninja is a hollywood carryon, developted from the japanese operatic mechanic of having a stagehand (who wore dark colours so the audience knew to ignore their presence onstage) murder a main character of the opera, leading everyone to understand he was murdered by stealth.

So now we have established that:

1/ Neither samurai nor ninja used katana

2/ Ninja did NOT wear dark colours, in nicely colourordenated suits,

WHY o WHY do you wear that silly gear and use katana yet call yourself ninja? Just grab a Kuyak and a greatsword, and blend in with the 80% of the players who do this, THAT is what a ninja would do.


Back to topic: katana was functional as a peasant killing weapon in the 11th century, and should not be even considered a sword, when compared to the vastly technologically superior european weapons of the 14th-16th century, ie the Longsword.

If anything needs removing though, its blocking from greatswords: the longsword was the largest sword to EVER, at ANY POINT in history, be used as a standalone weapon. Greatswords had the simple function of being killing tools: you were not expected to duel with it, nor would it be possible, their use was to cleave the heads of the light infantry of the 16th-17th centuries, who in turn stood inside pike formations, to be deployed in the event of 2 pike formations locking together, the light infantry would then crouch under the pikes, and close on front line of enemy, stabbing their feet, groin and legs. The greatsworders would then step past the pikemen and brutally beat the light infantry back. Very few ppl alive could wield a greatsword in the manner of a longsword, which was probably the very apex of double bladed swords, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y As we see there, even though they are just demonstrating, the longsword is very fast, and multiple uses of it would mean it far outstripped a greatsworder, or a katana monkey.

/rant.

SO MUCH is wrong with crpg, but katana stab is not part of it. Removing blocking from pikes, longspears, greatswords and great axes would be a start towards improving the game. Buffing what is already a ridiculously overpowered sword *the katan* is not needed in any way.


i have a phd  (read doctorate)  in japanase history filosofy and language  form the university of Bologna the most ancient university in all the word

1)  samurai was a master of swords,  majority of samuray was allowed to have that title that means, serving,  only after  exiting from a dojo (wich is a martial school ) where they where learning  how to use the dai-sho, (that mins long-short)       that where the 2 sword that a samurai was  OBBLIGATED to bring with him all the time  even at bed.     the katana,    and the wakizashi, many samurai where also bringing with them the tanto, a long knife  balanced, good to be used as throwing weapon but also used often for commit suicide, or hara-kiri that means cutting the belly,    or seppuku .
Even today there still some dojo that have over 1 thousand year of history.  many dojo where specialized in different weapon, from katana, to najinata (a long 2 hand katana), to   bo- jo  (long wood weapons) ,   even kusarigama  a long   chain weapon with  a steel ball and a curved blade on the 2 sides.  famously used by  ronin  called baiken shishido,  (considered by Miyamoto Musashi  itself his best duel and opponent )

2)  Polearmer, first of all,   najinata is not a pole, but a long 2h  katana used mainly by footman for kill  horseman,      the yari,  is a sort of spear, that where ONLY used by yari-ashigaru, that where  untrained paesant forced to serve in the army in times of needs.   was the weapon of the poor.


The katana was never used for commit suicide, that was the wakizashi or tanto,      katana where usually used  and tested,  against   dead condamned ppl, in executions.


yumi was a long bow, that where also a forced train for all the samurai, at list on majority of dojo, together with use of bo-ken, katana,  jo,  and martial arts.


Regards ninja  first of all nobody in japan called ninja : ninja, until the diffusion of japanese culture  in the middle 1950 , they where know as ninjutsutsukai, rappa, shinobimetsuke and they not where using katana but    tanto and Ninjato, short version of katana, kunai, shuriken,  bo shuriken,3-4-5 stars, 3 star nails, kamayari, ashiko,tekagi,fukumibari,makibishi, kyoketsu shogei etc etc
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 08:35:35 am by Vicious666 »

Offline Valknut

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2012, 09:31:37 pm »
+1

i have a phd  (read doctorate)  in japanase history filosofy and language  form the university of Bologna the most ancient university in all the word


Should had taken more English classes really...
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2012, 10:03:46 pm »
0
he's clearly not a native english speaker if he went to a university in italy.

Did you understand what he was saying?  Then his communication was successful.

What's an awerness?
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Offline Valknut

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2012, 03:51:27 pm »
0

What's an awerness?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2012, 03:57:11 pm »
0
FRANK THE TANK vs Another Troll

I say FRANK THE TANK should have

105 Speed

40 cut
40 thrust

This seems fair and historically accurate, the best kind of accurate.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2012, 05:13:00 pm »
0


So maybe fix the misspelling in your signature before you critique others on their English?  Lest you be seen as an ignorant hypocrite. 
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Offline Valknut

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2012, 06:14:02 pm »
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Haha to call me hypocritical is okay, but to call me ignorant isn't that a bit of an excruciating statement?
Anyways that was very astute of you to notice that, you really had to prove a point here, didn't you?

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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2012, 06:17:29 pm »
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Haha to call me hypocritical is okay, but to call me ignorant isn't that a bit of an excruciating statement?
Anyways that was very astute of you to notice that, you really had to prove a point here, didn't you?

No, I'm not one to nitpick, I was doing exactly what you were doing.  I really don't care how well someone's grammar is on the internet, or when speaking with them in person.  As long as I understand what is being said, then their purpose in communicating has been successful.

And I think calling you ignorant would be appropriate, for if you were to be so harsh about someone's grammar, it implies you are perfect in yours.  Maybe a little bit harsh :P
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Offline Valknut

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2012, 07:10:27 pm »
0
No, I'm not one to nitpick, I was doing exactly what you were doing.  I really don't care how well someone's grammar is on the internet, or when speaking with them in person.  As long as I understand what is being said, then their purpose in communicating has been successful.

And I think calling you ignorant would be appropriate, for if you were to be so harsh about someone's grammar, it implies you are perfect in yours.  Maybe a little bit harsh :P


Oh pardon I had failed to look like it was a joke in the first place. Wich is incredibly hard with just a line of text.
I was a bit precarious about the fact that he made a statement about the best univeristy in the word.

But truly I was more shocked that I am being called out for being ignorant, in wich case I am surrounded by fools and ignorants (IRL). And of that I try to dissociate from them.

PS: I do oblige Vicious666's post as it is with erudite knowledge, one of the few in my opinion.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 07:16:13 pm by Valknut »
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Offline Mr_Oujamaflip

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2012, 08:20:43 pm »
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Bro, he said most ancient.

Means oldest.

Also why would that insult be so excruciating. It's internet words.

Offline engurrand

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2012, 11:12:37 am »
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Bro, he said most ancient.

Means oldest.

Also why would that insult be so excruciating. It's internet words.

The katana is at stake, bro.

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Offline Gwennifer

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2012, 01:45:44 am »
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Now lets look at physics: stab at armour with a curved, thin weapon made from low quality steel, your gonna bend it at best, more likely to just snap it. The shape is wrong for stabbing, loading the center of the blade with all the impact, and the point is not designed to penetrate armour.

The shape's actually a bit better for stabbing, but everything else in this post is right, including the low-quality steel stuff. I upvoted you.

But as a reminder, the steel of both cultures tended to get better with time. I wouldn't trust any 400 year old piece of metal over a newly forged sword from either one.

I necro'd cause your post needs to be stickied :x

Offline Strider

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2012, 04:22:33 am »
-1
40 stab is a huge exaggeration. No sword even has as high as 40 stab
It should be more like:
103 speed
37 swing cut
21 stab pierce

16 stab doesn't put a dent in it. Katana needs more stab damage. Every time I've used stab with a katana it has glanced.

Offline Adamar

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2012, 05:22:56 am »
0
FRANK THE TANK vs Another Troll

I say FRANK THE TANK should have

105 Speed

40 cut
40 thrust

This seems fair and historically accurate, the best kind of accurate.

You sick man, not even him deserves to be treated like that!

Offline mulas

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Re: Long Sword vs another sword
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2012, 05:49:29 am »
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15th century katana is superior to 15th century longsword. Did anyone see the show Deadliest warrior? There was an episode Samurai vs Viking, and a katana cuts through 3 pigs bodies in 1 strike.

Anyway, watch this video, the modern katana chop wood like an ax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsfGWkO7SM