cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 28, 2011, 10:22:26 pm
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I think it has been discussed several times, but I don't know the outcome.
I think something should be done about this.
It's not really balanced when people with 6 wm can get 160 points in for example archery, whereas people with 8 wm only get 172 (lvl 30 or 31, no sure). With 160 wpf you can shoot with a longbow almost as fast and accurate as with 172, which really annoys me as I have 172 and I think it annoys many other people as well :/
I think this would also balance the theme of "strength and agi builds", because they would swing much slower with less wpf.
Just remove these free wpp completely or reduce them by 50% or whatever, but reduce them please.
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Or...
Slightly buff Weapon Master.
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WEAPON MASTER BUFF
I WANT TO HYBRID MORE
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I thought the devs could weight wpf? So say 1-100 wpf doesn't do an awful lot, then the next 50 can make a big difference and the final 22 to 172 makes an even bigger difference.
Not sure if they can do that or not, but it's a way of making the extra WM count for a lot.
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I think it has been discussed several times, but I don't know the outcome.
I think something should be done about this.
It's not really balanced when people with 6 wm can get 160 points in for example archery, whereas people with 8 wm only get 172 (lvl 30 or 31, no sure). With 160 wpf you can shoot with a longbow almost as fast and accurate as with 172, which really annoys me as I have 172 and I think it annoys many other people as well :/
I think this would also balance the theme of "strength and agi builds", because they would swing much slower with less wpf.
Just remove these free wpp completely or reduce them by 50% or whatever, but reduce them please.
You can shoot even better with just 150 wpf and 6PD. Do not tell this nobody, this is main archery secret.
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Or...
Slightly buff Weapon Master.
Where is the sense in buffing weaponmaster, when people can still shoot decently with little weaponmaster? Those with high weaponmaster would maybe get a buff in speed or accuracy, but those with for example strength-build-archery would still be able to hit almost perfectly :/
You can shoot even better with just 150 wpf and 6PD. Do not tell this nobody, this is main archery secret.
I wanted to keep that secret Cup1d :O
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I think it has been discussed several times, but I don't know the outcome.
I think something should be done about this.
It's not really balanced when people with 6 wm can get 160 points in for example archery, whereas people with 8 wm only get 172 (lvl 30 or 31, no sure). With 160 wpf you can shoot with a longbow almost as fast and accurate as with 172, which really annoys me as I have 172 and I think it annoys many other people as well :/
I think this would also balance the theme of "strength and agi builds", because they would swing much slower with less wpf.
Just remove these free wpp completely or reduce them by 50% or whatever, but reduce them please.
That's right , just remove the free wpf, cause it's all about what's better for pure archers, who gives a crap about hybrid builds that don't rely solely on spamming agility.
21/18 build here, trust me i won't be able to get 2 proficiencies to a level where i'm as fast a a class that specializes in one . Say what you want , but in my opinion hybrid builds are close to being perfectly balanced right now, your suggestion will ruin this balance and for what ?
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That's right , just remove the free wpf, cause it's all about what's better for pure archers, who gives a crap about hybrid builds that don't rely solely on spamming agility.
21/18 build here, trust me i won't be able to get 2 proficiencies to a level where i'm as fast a a class that specializes in one . Say what you want , but in my opinion hybrid builds are close to being perfectly balanced right now, your suggestion will ruin this balance and for what ?
I'm not talking about hybrid builds or something. I'm talking about strength melee builds and strength archery builds, because those are way too strong.
Maybe it would be a good idea to buff weaponmaster AND reduce free wpf.
That way hybrids could keep their builds and strengthbuilds wouldn't be so spamming fast or accurate.
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Agi builds are better right now anyway (unless we're talking about 10 if 10 ps triple loomed plate armor + gauntlets great maul circling spammer who relies on people being afraid and glancing off him/teamattacking each other). Can't say anything about archery builds though.
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Agi builds are better right now anyway (unless we're talking about 10 if 10 ps triple loomed plate armor + gauntlets great maul circling spammer who relies on people being afraid and glancing off him/teamattacking each other). Can't say anything about archery builds though.
Nonsense.
But since you need that free 120 or so wpf to make yer hybrid work keep spouting it - there was a big whine ages ago about throwing hybrids.
The ONLY benefit to agi builds is athletics, which is often mostly useless thanks to terrain modifiers.
Devs are DEATHLY afraid of anything remotely approaching 200 wpf.
lvl 30 9/30
3PS 10Ath 10 Wm (189 wpf)
It's very underwhelming, optionally go 3 str and use a scythe and rely on broken polestun and baiting.
Don't try and feed me that shit about agi builds being better.
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Nonsense.
But since you need that free 120 or so wpf to make yer hybrid work keep spouting it - there was a big whine ages ago about throwing hybrids.
The ONLY benefit to agi builds is athletics, which is often mostly useless thanks to terrain modifiers.
Devs are DEATHLY afraid of anything remotely approaching 200 wpf.
lvl 30 9/30
3PS 10Ath 10 Wm (189 wpf)
It's very underwhelming, optionally go 3 str and use a scythe and rely on broken polestun and baiting.
Don't try and feed me that shit about agi builds being better.
Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.
Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.
And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds); str builds have better survivability, but then again, you're more of a 1trick pony -punching bag if you get surrounded by enemies, whereas an agi build can just get out of harms way.
Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.
Now i suggest you change your tone and go test it for yourself but with a decent build instead of that idiocy you've posted in your previous message.
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I admit that I did not care much for AGI base builds either, but after fighting with Phase I have to say his 15/27 is absolute hell on wheels. I think it just takes certain kinds of mentalities to make it work (not just making proper use of reach and footwork, but also not being a total lunatic and knowing how to avoid range spam).
I have to say I'm a fan of both. Even in siege I have noticed some AGI builds shine, it just takes certain weapons to make them worthwhile, like any build.
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I admit that I did not care much for AGI base builds either, but after fighting with Phase I have to say his 15/27 is absolute hell on wheels. I think it just takes certain kinds of mentalities to make it work (not just making proper use of reach and footwork, but also not being a total lunatic and knowing how to avoid range spam).
I have to say I'm a fan of both. Even in siege I have noticed some AGI builds shine, it just takes certain weapons to make them worthwhile, like any build.
Overall a balanced build is a win-win of course, i switched from 24/15 to 21/18 and not regretting it so far, i felt too slow with 15 agi as a shielder.
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Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.
Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.
And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds); str builds have better survivability, but then again, you're more of a 1trick pony -punching bag if you get surrounded by enemies, whereas an agi build can just get out of harms way.
Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.
Now i suggest you change your tone and go test it for yourself but with a decent build instead of that idiocy you've posted in your previous message.
couple things
I fail to see how agility builds are always superior
I see that all builds are good in their own way. A super agility build can run circles around full strength builds but at the same time, a good strength build can take out a agility build if he is a good player. On the other hand, a strength build of 39/3 or something crazy like that can be taken out by a agility build who can find openings and fight that way. However i believe that each player has a build that is best for them.
Also to your comment of strength punching bag, Balboroth uses a build that leans towards strength(not fully strength but on the stronger side) and ive seen him slice through 6 enemies(and they were not noob players all had decent gear and positive kds)....
To your point of looms bringing an agility build up to a strength build damage wise, looms can help but at the same time they are not the same. Still looms do have a significant effect although i doubt an agility build with 5 powerstrike and I dont care what weapon your using will be able to 2 hit someone like Passion who has 13(i think) iron flesh.
I used to use an Agility build (15/24) and I see what your saying about being able to run from situations, and I did usually take less damage when going into a fight because I was able to evade(until I got 2 hit by some guy). However I did make a 36/3 strength alt and I was able to kill people while I was being mobbed. Ultimately I think im repeating myself again and again to the point that there is no best build. Builds are better for certain people based on their play style and preference. Ive slashed up my fair share of agility whores who try to skirt out of range and backpeddal me and ive killed a ton of strength builds who tank 3-4 shots from an MW longsword/MW 2h sword. However at the end of the day no matter the build if I go up against a player like Sittingbull, SaulCanner, Balbaroth, Racecar, Hisagi, Rhaleys, or many others(im a decent player who can manage a good 3.0 but im not gona flatter myself...there are many better players) im going to get owned.
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And then I shoot people and kill them regardless of AGI or STR builds...
Feels good.
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Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.
Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.
And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds); str builds have better survivability, but then again, you're more of a 1trick pony -punching bag if you get surrounded by enemies, whereas an agi build can just get out of harms way.
Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.
Now i suggest you change your tone and go test it for yourself but with a decent build instead of that idiocy you've posted in your previous message.
Rubbish, sheer and utter rubbish.
High Athletics means you are punished MORE for the more armor you wear and the gear you carry - it is noticeable.
Your insistence that agi builds can get out when surrounded by enemies? Or is that an inference, because it is idiocy to think all 5 guys are going to miss.. every time.. when the Str build can rely on hp and armor ALL the time.
As an added bonus, all those range users usually shoot at light armored targets first, and some of them can aim.
What is this speed bonus you speak of?
The point is people get FREE 130 wpf, or can spend 10 WM to gain an extra 59 wpf with a gimp build, or spend less for a marginally better build. WM is gimped because of this free wpf - all the whinging about 1 wpf crossbows and throwing was for naught when you give people enough free wpf to be effective and a modest investment in WM will give enough wpf for the sidearm.
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Rubbish, sheer and utter rubbish.
High Athletics means you are punished MORE for the more armor you wear and the gear you carry - it is noticeable.
Your insistence that agi builds can get out when surrounded by enemies? Or is that an inference, because it is idiocy to think all 5 guys are going to miss.. every time.. when the Str build can rely on hp and armor ALL the time.
As an added bonus, all those range users usually shoot at light armored targets first, and some of them can aim.
What is this speed bonus you speak of?
The point is people get FREE 130 wpf, or can spend 10 WM to gain an extra 59 wpf with a gimp build, or spend less for a marginally better build. WM is gimped because of this free wpf - all the whinging about 1 wpf crossbows and throwing was for naught when you give people enough free wpf to be effective and a modest investment in WM will give enough wpf for the sidearm.
It seems like we're playing two different games, me and you. I'm playing cRPG while you're playing "call other person's points in an argument "rubbish" ". Play the first game a bit more, come back and than we can talk. Cheers.
@ BlackTiger- obviously a good player can make any build work, nobody's denying this fact. My point is, give a good player proper gear (loomed armor that doesn't slow you down that much but doesnt allow you getting 2shot+ a weapon) and he can do wonders with an agi build without worrying too much about his lack of PS. 5-6 PS is more than enough for a weapon like a greatsword or a (german) poleaxe if you spend the rest of the points right and i believe that overall it'll make a much more versatile (duel/battle) build.
The reason why i keep saying in this topic that agi builds are really good is because not so many players realise this yet and keep thinking that STR oriented builds are way more superior and somehow AGI needs a buff. What i'm trying to say is that both STR and AGI (and balanced) builds are more than viable nowadays and i'd even give the edge to builds with slightly more agi.
What i'm also trying to say is i think that internal balance issues of ranged classes should be tweaked without touching other classes somehow.
P.S. btw , just wanted to say something for a while - i really like how the throwers balance turned out in the end, at least we got 1 out of 3 ranged classes sorted out =).
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It depends on how skilled the player is;
Lower skill - benefits more from strength
Higher skill - benefits more from agility
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It seems like we're playing two different games, me and you. I'm playing cRPG while you're playing "call other person's points in an argument "rubbish" ". Play the first game a bit more, come back and than we can talk. Cheers.
@ BlackTiger- obviously a good player can make any build work, nobody's denying this fact. My point is, give a good player proper gear (loomed armor that doesn't slow you down that much but doesnt allow you getting 2shot+ a weapon) and he can do wonders with an agi build without worrying too much about his lack of PS. 5-6 PS is more than enough for a weapon like a greatsword or a (german) poleaxe if you spend the rest of the points right and i believe that overall it'll make a much more versatile (duel/battle) build.
The reason why i keep saying in this topic that agi builds are really good is because not so many players realise this yet and keep thinking that STR oriented builds are way more superior and somehow AGI needs a buff. What i'm trying to say is that both STR and AGI (and balanced) builds are more than viable nowadays and i'd even give the edge to builds with slightly more agi.
What i'm also trying to say is i think that internal balance issues of ranged classes should be tweaked without touching other classes somehow.
P.S. btw , just wanted to say something for a while - i really like how the throwers balance turned out in the end, at least we got 1 out of 3 ranged classes sorted out =).
No, your playing 'I'm a master debater' and I'm playing cRPG. But change the subject of the original post, everyone else does and calls it valid.
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Just compare damage of 12\27 and 27\12 builds
Agility build
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 12
Agility: 27
Hit points: 49
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 4
Shield: 0
Athletics: 9
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 181
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Heavy bastard sword - 36 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 0-18
Heavy bastard sword - 23 base pierce damage
Against 70 armor 0-11
Strength build
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 27
Agility: 12
Hit points: 74
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 0
Athletics: 4
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 4
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 139
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Great long bardiche - 46 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 10-40
It's like fight between feather weight and heavyweight champions.
Standart scenario - Overhead (weapon stun) right swing, KO.
Run Forest... Run...
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Just compare damage of 12\27 and 27\12 builds
Agility build
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 12
Agility: 27
Hit points: 49
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 4
Shield: 0
Athletics: 9
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 181
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Heavy bastard sword - 36 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 0-18
Heavy bastard sword - 23 base pierce damage
Against 70 armor 0-11
Strength build
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 27
Agility: 12
Hit points: 74
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 0
Athletics: 4
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 4
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 139
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1
Great long bardiche - 46 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 10-40
It's like fight between feather weight and heavyweight champions.
Standart scenario - Overhead (weapon stun) right swing, KO.
Run Forest... Run...
5-6 PS instead of 4 and then we're talking.
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I just recently realized that the difference in high or low athlethics isn't in the top speed, which is very minor, but the sidestepping speed, which you use while fighting. I went from 21/18 to 18/21 and I don't regret it. You can just control the fight with high athlethics, you can survive on your own against multiple enemies.
Your insistence that agi builds can get out when surrounded by enemies? Or is that an inference, because it is idiocy to think all 5 guys are going to miss.. every time.. when the Str build can rely on hp and armor ALL the time.
In a me vs 3 or more opponents, agi is what makes you survive, and not even just that, maybe kill em all. I can constantly move in a way that keeps on enemy between me and the rest. Fighting them on at a time with sometimes a carefully aimed held overhead in one of the other guys faces and its not all that hard to win.
In that situation a str build would maybe kill 1 with the first hit, but then two guys will attack him simultaneously. Which is a pretty much inescapable situation if you move dirt slow. What good is all your hp and armour when you can´t attack back.
Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.
Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.
And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds)
Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.
Balanced build are better than strength builds, strength builds are better than agi builds. With agi build being 15 str and down, balanced being 18-21 str, strength 24 and up.
If you really think agi builds are better than str builds, although I'm not sure what you define as an agi build, why don't you see anyone with an agi build. Except rare cases as Phase, I doubt he does better as an agi build than he would with a str build.
I really dont think the speed bonus difference between 4 and 8 athlethics makes up for a difference in 4 ps. Would be interesting to get some data about this, but I think damage gets hardly affected by having a few percent faster movement speed. I also think the damage increase from 30-40 wpf points is very minimal.
Which brings me to my ideas about changing WM. Having 5 or 8 weapon master gives you a wpf difference of like 23 points? I have 5 WM and I have 149 wpf. If I remember correctly a 8 WM has 172. WM is underpowered. The increase in cost for a wpf point is like exponential now. In the end the amount of WM barely matters cause you'll end up in the 130-180 regions anyway.
I think a 5 WM character should have something like 120 wpf, if he goes pure, and an 8 WM character like 190. Cause the game has become too slow for the average skill anyway. A bigger difference in WPF, which is only fair. A 23 wpf difference gives you like one percent swing speed increase and who knows how little damage increase. Oh and slightly lower breaking chance. A difference of 3 powerstrike gives you a shit ton of damage, again, not sure how much, but this is very noticable.
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The reason why i keep saying in this topic that agi builds are really good is because not so many players realise this yet and keep thinking that STR oriented builds are way more superior and somehow AGI needs a buff. What i'm trying to say is that both STR and AGI (and balanced) builds are more than viable nowadays and i'd even give the edge to builds with slightly more agi.
Don't make me quote myself again please. =)
Also, good luck blocking steel picks,niudaos and such with 190 wpf. Think Teeth, THINK !
Little extra there - more bonus from weapon master --> expect more crossbow hybrids running around (even more than now).
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6PS looks like balanced build Ujin. Same with 15\21. There are only two reasons to make this builds - cav\shield requirements.
I would like to know, what build you suggest for 4PS:
Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.
Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.
And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds); str builds have better survivability, but then again, you're more of a 1trick pony -punching bag if you get surrounded by enemies, whereas an agi build can just get out of harms way.
Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.
You know, some STR builds use loomed weapons too. With more benefits.
Since weapons requirements\wpf curve were changed, there are not too much sense in high AGI builds.
Also, good luck blocking steel picks,niudaos and such with 190 wpf. Think Teeth, THINK !
Yes, also good luck with blocking great maul\mallet\maul from 9PS character with 140wpf.
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Yes, also good luck with blocking great maul\mallet\maul from 9PS character with 140wpf.
Why block when you can spam ? Or get out of the way (+spam) if you have enough speed ?
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Don't make me quote myself again please. =)
Also, good luck blocking steel picks,niudaos and such with 190 wpf. Think Teeth, THINK !
Little extra there - more bonus from weapon master --> expect more crossbow hybrids running around (even more than now).
So you are promoting agi as the best type of build, even though you don't actually think they are, so that the STR loving gets reduced by your hardcore love for the opposite. Putin has taught you well.
Nerf the onehanded leftslash to mortal speed and those will be fine.
I'm talking about flattening the wpf curve. Can't be arsed to draw it. Now you can get to a 100 with very few points invested, which is promoting hybridism, also making WM a useless skill. As soon as you get past 130 the cost of wpf points goes up, very fast. Thats why getting 2 weapon classes to a 100 wpf is very easy. Where getting 1 to 200 is impossible. So, crossbow hybridism is easy with the current system. At a 149 wpf getting 1 more costs me 9 points. Those 9 points would give me 9 wpf points in a different class starting from 0.
I would like to see it that you get a more linearish amount of WPF for points invested in WM. So getting from 140-160 shouldn't cost 10 times as much as getting from 1-20. Ofcourse this shouldnt be completely linear, I bet with some research the sweet middle ground can be found.
This doesn't give more bonus from weapon master, it gives a different bonus. This way, if you are able to get 160 wpf in one class. You will be able to get 100 in one and like 80 at most in another.
So more total weaponmaster, a more linear cost increase of points per wpf.
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And then I shoot people and kill them regardless of AGI or STR builds...
Feels good.
:D
Best comment so far :p
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Zisa is on the money.
+1
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5-6 PS instead of 4 and then we're talking.
Not only is he using 4 PS in his example, he's using bastard sword (36 cut) for the agi build and great long bardiche (46 cut) for the str build.... and values are against 70 armor... :lol:
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Xant
Ujin said 4-5 ps is enough. I asked him about viable build with 12 str and 4 ps. Looks like he cant offer good 30'level build.
You do not have full weapon list with only 12 str. Propose your choice instead.
I remember only one 12str succesfull player. It was RedneckIII, he uses balanced awlpike (september-november 2010 it has worse thrust damage than now) with steel shield and often do fantastical 50-0 scores.
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Overall a balanced build is a win-win of course, i switched from 24/15 to 21/18 and not regretting it so far, i felt too slow with 15 agi as a shielder.
stop wearing so much armor...
I 15 agi all the time and everyone thinks im fast as hell.
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Xant
Ujin said 4-5 ps is enough. I asked him about viable build with 12 str and 4 ps. Looks like he cant offer good 30'level build.
You do not have full weapon list with only 12 str. Propose your choice instead.
I remember only one 12str succesfull player. It was RedneckIII, he uses balanced awlpike (september-november 2010 it has worse thrust damage than now) with steel shield and often do fantastical 50-0 scores.
For 4 PS and 2handed, pretty much anything except heavy bastard sword. Studded warclub, Goedendag, mace.. but then I don't know why you'd make a 2h build with 12 str. With 15 strength, pretty much everything becomes viable. Katana, the greatswords, morningstar, barmace etc.
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Old nodachi was 12 str - perfect for ninjas and samurai. If it was not currently gimped (yes GIMPED, like the katana and melee in general) I would be running around 12/30 (or 12/27 if WM was really useful) whittling away at tin cans.
ANYHOW...
Instead of 'free' 130 wpf, bump the wpf gained from WM...
make the points scale towards 'total already spent' not per category, to keep hybrids in check.
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Technically free wpp (250 or so) in one stat gives 111 wpf, but carry on.
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Agi builds like phase or phyrex need to hit me 4-5 times, while they die in one hit of me.
Step 1: Get 21/18.
Step 2 : Get loomed heavy armor.
Step 3 : Avoid kickslashes.
Step 4 : Wait for them to try to outrange you.
Step 5 : Right swing.
=
PROFIT.
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I've had more agility builds then STR or balanced builds so I have to say that AGI isn't really that great above 15 unless you're using massively heavy armor or playing flawlessly that day; getting a damage bonus from speed, hitting the head, and holding an attack for 1.2 seconds or whatever so your character does his little kiai yell. Rain, slopes and interiors of castles (dunno if this was changed) all kind of make athletics moot up to a certain point. It's good for chasing archers and kiting groups of enemies (so they can turn around and flank your team).
The last two gens I haven't used any WM either and by level 30 you have 111 wpf so it is mostly pointless to invest in it from my experience.
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That's right , just remove the free wpf, cause it's all about what's better for pure archers, who gives a crap about hybrid builds that don't rely solely on spamming agility.
21/18 build here, trust me i won't be able to get 2 proficiencies to a level where i'm as fast a a class that specializes in one . Say what you want , but in my opinion hybrid builds are close to being perfectly balanced right now, your suggestion will ruin this balance and for what ?
I have 1h and polearms spread out between 6 WM. It's a pretty good balance for a hybrid, but going up against a melee with all their WPF in one skill will still have the advantage over me (if using the same weapon for example).
I think it would make agility more useful if you got slightly more WPP for every WM, not enough to make it so you can get 100'ish for 3 skills though (at 5 or 6 WM, maybe for 7 or 8).
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If the WPF given from no/low WM investment was lower, then it might encourage strength builds to put in more agility. This would lean them towards the balanced builds, which would mean less variety depending on how well the strength build users could do with lower WPF. But if strength-heavy builds (24/15, 27/12, etc) could cope with the lower WPF and related problems (weapon breakage, speed), and keep their high damage output and hitpoints capabilities, then a change to WPF might be okay.
Also, I think the comparison on the previous page against someone with 70 armour was a little off, I don't see too many people wearing 70 armour. 40-50 would be a more accurate number to go by.
Edit add-on:
OP, as for the difference in WPF at higher levels of WM for archers, why not put the extra WPF into a melee weapon instead? I always though anything over 4-5 WM was meant to by a hybrid. The points to fill from 160 to 172 WPF could fill out much more in a melee weapon proficiency. And if you do not want to melee, why not just take lower WM? :D
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WPF is almost a non issue, a good player with 0 wpf will beat a bad one with 150 every time. the only time a lack of WPF is noticeable is if you're in a duel with someone who has both WPF and a fast weapon and you're trying to use something slow (eg katana v nodachi)
adjusting free WPF is not the solution. ath, ps and if are so much better than you'd probably have to give 0 "free" to get people to put more than their spare points into it. i think adjusting the wpf "curve" so that there is some real benefit to going above 100 prof is the answer.
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Why not do what SP Warband did? Add a hard cap to wpf for all categories that can only be increased with WM.
For instance:
0 WM = 60wpf max per category
1 WM = 75wpf max
2 WM = 90wpf max
3 WM = 105wpf max
4 WM = 120wpf max
5 WM = 135wpf max
6 WM = 150wpf
7 WM = 165wpf
8 WM = 180wpf
9 WM = 195wpf
etc
This won't boost the high agility chars becuase they will never actually get enough points to max their wpf due to the scaling (8WM only actually gives 172 wpf, not 180). Meanwhile it forces Strength builds to at least put 4 points into WM if they want to get to their 111 wpf that they currently get free.
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Why not do what SP Warband did? Add a hard cap to wpf for all categories that can only be increased with WM.
For instance:
0 WM = 60wpf max per category
1 WM = 75wpf max
2 WM = 90wpf max
3 WM = 105wpf max
4 WM = 120wpf max
5 WM = 135wpf max
6 WM = 150wpf
7 WM = 165wpf
8 WM = 180wpf
9 WM = 195wpf
etc
This won't boost the high agility chars becuase they will never actually get enough points to max their wpf due to the scaling (8WM only actually gives 172 wpf, not 180). Meanwhile it forces Strength builds to at least put 4 points into WM if they want to get to their 111 wpf that they currently get free.
That is a pretty rad suggestion, unfortunately lol 27/12 builds everywhere who now have 111 2hand and 95 crossbow prof
WAIT THAT SOUNDS AWESOME BRB STF
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bump