Anything going to be done about free wpp?

[Zisa]

Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.

Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.

And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds); str builds have better survivability, but then again, you're more of a 1trick pony -punching bag if you get surrounded by enemies, whereas an agi build can just get out of harms way.

Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.

Now i suggest you change your tone and go test it for yourself but with a decent build instead of that idiocy you've posted in your previous message.

Rubbish, sheer and utter rubbish.
High Athletics means you are punished MORE for the more armor you wear and the gear you carry - it is noticeable.
Your insistence that agi builds can get out when surrounded by enemies? Or is that an inference, because it is idiocy to think all 5 guys are going to miss.. every time.. when the Str build can rely on hp and armor ALL the time.
As an added bonus, all those range users usually shoot at light armored targets first, and some of them can aim.

What is this speed bonus you speak of?

The point is people get FREE 130 wpf, or can spend 10 WM to gain an extra 59 wpf with a gimp build, or spend less for a marginally better build. WM is gimped because of this free wpf - all the whinging about 1 wpf crossbows and throwing was for naught when you give people enough free wpf to be effective and a modest investment in WM will give enough wpf for the sidearm.

[Ujin]

Rubbish, sheer and utter rubbish.
High Athletics means you are punished MORE for the more armor you wear and the gear you carry - it is noticeable.
Your insistence that agi builds can get out when surrounded by enemies? Or is that an inference, because it is idiocy to think all 5 guys are going to miss.. every time.. when the Str build can rely on hp and armor ALL the time.
As an added bonus, all those range users usually shoot at light armored targets first, and some of them can aim.

What is this speed bonus you speak of?

The point is people get FREE 130 wpf, or can spend 10 WM to gain an extra 59 wpf with a gimp build, or spend less for a marginally better build. WM is gimped because of this free wpf - all the whinging about 1 wpf crossbows and throwing was for naught when you give people enough free wpf to be effective and a modest investment in WM will give enough wpf for the sidearm.

It seems like we're playing two different games, me and you. I'm playing cRPG while you're playing "call other person's points in an argument "rubbish"   ". Play the first game a bit more, come back and than we can talk. Cheers.


@ BlackTiger- obviously a good player can make any build work, nobody's denying this fact. My point is, give a good player proper gear (loomed armor that doesn't slow you down that much but doesnt allow you getting 2shot+ a weapon) and he can do wonders with an agi build without worrying too much about his lack of PS. 5-6 PS is more than enough for a weapon like a greatsword or a (german) poleaxe if you spend the rest of the points right and i believe that overall it'll make a much more versatile (duel/battle) build.

The reason why i keep saying in this topic that agi builds are really good is because not so many players realise this yet and keep thinking that STR oriented builds are way more superior and somehow AGI needs a buff. What i'm trying to say is that both STR and AGI  (and balanced) builds are more than viable nowadays and i'd even give the edge to builds with slightly more agi.

What i'm also trying to say is  i think that internal balance issues of ranged classes should be tweaked without touching other classes somehow.

P.S. btw , just wanted to say something for a while - i really like how the throwers balance turned out in the end, at least we got 1 out of 3 ranged classes sorted out =).

[Tor!]

It depends on how skilled the player is;

Lower skill - benefits more from strength
Higher skill - benefits more from agility

[Zisa]

It seems like we're playing two different games, me and you. I'm playing cRPG while you're playing "call other person's points in an argument "rubbish"   ". Play the first game a bit more, come back and than we can talk. Cheers.


@ BlackTiger- obviously a good player can make any build work, nobody's denying this fact. My point is, give a good player proper gear (loomed armor that doesn't slow you down that much but doesnt allow you getting 2shot+ a weapon) and he can do wonders with an agi build without worrying too much about his lack of PS. 5-6 PS is more than enough for a weapon like a greatsword or a (german) poleaxe if you spend the rest of the points right and i believe that overall it'll make a much more versatile (duel/battle) build.

The reason why i keep saying in this topic that agi builds are really good is because not so many players realise this yet and keep thinking that STR oriented builds are way more superior and somehow AGI needs a buff. What i'm trying to say is that both STR and AGI  (and balanced) builds are more than viable nowadays and i'd even give the edge to builds with slightly more agi.

What i'm also trying to say is  i think that internal balance issues of ranged classes should be tweaked without touching other classes somehow.

P.S. btw , just wanted to say something for a while - i really like how the throwers balance turned out in the end, at least we got 1 out of 3 ranged classes sorted out =).

No, your playing 'I'm a master debater' and I'm playing cRPG. But change the subject of the original post, everyone else does and calls it valid.

[Cup1d]

Just compare damage of 12\27 and 27\12 builds

Agility build

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 12
Agility: 27
Hit points: 49
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 4
Shield: 0
Athletics: 9
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 181
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

Heavy bastard sword - 36 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 0-18

Heavy bastard sword - 23 base pierce damage
Against 70 armor 0-11


Strength build

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 27
Agility: 12
Hit points: 74
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 0
Athletics: 4
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 4
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 139
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

Great long bardiche - 46 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 10-40

It's like fight between feather weight and heavyweight champions.
Standart scenario - Overhead (weapon stun) right swing, KO.

Run Forest... Run...

[Ujin]

Just compare damage of 12\27 and 27\12 builds

Agility build

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 12
Agility: 27
Hit points: 49
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 4
Shield: 0
Athletics: 9
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 181
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

Heavy bastard sword - 36 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 0-18

Heavy bastard sword - 23 base pierce damage
Against 70 armor 0-11


Strength build

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 27
Agility: 12
Hit points: 74
Converted: 8
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 9
Shield: 0
Athletics: 4
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 4
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 139
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

Great long bardiche - 46 base cut damage
Against 70 armor 10-40

It's like fight between feather weight and heavyweight champions.
Standart scenario - Overhead (weapon stun) right swing, KO.

Run Forest... Run...

5-6 PS instead of 4 and then we're talking.

[Teeth]

I just recently realized that the difference in high or low athlethics isn't in the top speed, which is very minor, but the sidestepping speed, which you use while fighting. I went from 21/18 to 18/21 and I don't regret it. You can just control the fight with high athlethics, you can survive on your own against multiple enemies.

Your insistence that agi builds can get out when surrounded by enemies? Or is that an inference, because it is idiocy to think all 5 guys are going to miss.. every time.. when the Str build can rely on hp and armor ALL the time.

In a me vs 3 or more opponents, agi is what makes you survive, and not even just that, maybe kill em all. I can constantly move in a way that keeps on enemy between me and the rest. Fighting them on at a time with sometimes a carefully aimed held overhead in one of the other guys faces and its not all that hard to win.

In that situation a str build would maybe kill 1 with the first hit, but then two guys will attack him simultaneously. Which is a pretty much inescapable situation if you move dirt slow. What good is all your hp and armour when you can´t attack back.

Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.

Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.

And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds)

Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.

Balanced build are better than strength builds, strength builds are better than agi builds. With agi build being 15 str and down, balanced being 18-21 str, strength 24 and up.

If you really think agi builds are better than str builds, although I'm not sure what you define as an agi build, why don't you see anyone with an agi build. Except rare cases as Phase, I doubt he does better as an agi build than he would with a str build.

I really dont think the speed bonus difference between 4 and 8 athlethics makes up for a difference in 4 ps. Would be interesting to get some data about this, but I think damage gets hardly affected by having a few percent faster movement speed. I also think the damage increase from 30-40 wpf points is very minimal.

Which brings me to my ideas about changing WM. Having 5 or 8 weapon master gives you a wpf difference of like 23 points? I have 5 WM and I have 149 wpf. If I remember correctly a 8 WM has 172. WM is underpowered. The increase in cost for a wpf point is like exponential now. In the end the amount of WM barely matters cause you'll end up in the 130-180 regions anyway.

I think a 5 WM character should have something like 120 wpf, if he goes pure, and an 8 WM character like 190. Cause the game has become too slow for the average skill anyway. A bigger difference in WPF, which is only fair. A 23 wpf difference gives you like one percent swing speed increase and who knows how little damage increase. Oh and slightly lower breaking chance. A difference of 3 powerstrike gives you a shit ton of damage, again, not sure how much, but this is very noticable.

[Ujin]

The reason why i keep saying in this topic that agi builds are really good is because not so many players realise this yet and keep thinking that STR oriented builds are way more superior and somehow AGI needs a buff. What i'm trying to say is that both STR and AGI  (and balanced) builds are more than viable nowadays and i'd even give the edge to builds with slightly more agi.

Don't make me quote myself again please. =)

Also, good luck blocking steel picks,niudaos and such with 190 wpf. Think Teeth, THINK !

Little extra there - more bonus from weapon master --> expect more crossbow hybrids running around (even more than now).

[Cup1d]

6PS looks like balanced build Ujin. Same with 15\21. There are only two reasons to make this builds - cav\shield requirements.

I would like to know, what build you suggest for 4PS:

Here, let me get the spoon. Agi builds are better.

Go ahead and ask a guy like Phase what his build is , just as an example.

And i wasn't talking about some clown build with 3 ps , let's talk ps 4-5 at least intstead. High ath let's you backpedal faster than some of your opponents move forward (ideal for killing shielders by staying out of range), high wm let's you either make a decent hybrid or put everything into one proficiency and thus compensate the lack of PS with the speed bonus (i've been 2slashed by agi builds just like i've been 2shot by str builds); str builds have better survivability, but then again, you're more of a 1trick pony -punching bag if you get surrounded by enemies, whereas an agi build can just get out of harms way.

Loomed weapons +speed bonuses really help AGI builds stay on par with STR builds in terms of damage.

You know, some STR builds use loomed weapons too. With more benefits.
Since weapons requirements\wpf curve were changed, there are not too much sense in high AGI builds.

Also, good luck blocking steel picks,niudaos and such with 190 wpf. Think Teeth, THINK !

Yes, also good luck with blocking great maul\mallet\maul from 9PS character with 140wpf.

[Ujin]

Yes, also good luck with blocking great maul\mallet\maul from 9PS character with 140wpf.

Why block when you can spam ? Or get out of the way (+spam) if you have enough speed ?

[Teeth]

Don't make me quote myself again please. =)

Also, good luck blocking steel picks,niudaos and such with 190 wpf. Think Teeth, THINK !

Little extra there - more bonus from weapon master --> expect more crossbow hybrids running around (even more than now).

So you are promoting agi as the best type of build, even though you don't actually think they are, so that the STR loving gets reduced by your hardcore love for the opposite. Putin has taught you well.

Nerf the onehanded leftslash to mortal speed and those will be fine.

I'm talking about flattening the wpf curve. Can't be arsed to draw it. Now you can get to a 100 with very few points invested, which is promoting hybridism, also making WM a useless skill. As soon as you get past 130 the cost of wpf points goes up, very fast. Thats why getting 2 weapon classes to a 100 wpf is very easy. Where getting 1 to 200 is impossible. So, crossbow hybridism is easy with the current system. At a 149 wpf getting 1 more costs me 9 points. Those 9 points would give me 9 wpf points in a different class starting from 0.

I would like to see it that you get a more linearish amount of WPF for points invested in WM. So getting from 140-160 shouldn't cost 10 times as much as getting from 1-20. Ofcourse this shouldnt be completely linear, I bet with some research the sweet middle ground can be found.

This doesn't give more bonus from weapon master, it gives a different bonus. This way, if you are able to get 160 wpf in one class. You will be able to get 100 in one and like 80 at most in another.

So more total weaponmaster, a more linear cost increase of points per wpf.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

And then I shoot people and kill them regardless of AGI or STR builds...

Feels good.

Best comment so far :p

[Konrax]

Zisa is on the money.

+1

[Xant]

5-6 PS instead of 4 and then we're talking.

Not only is he using 4 PS in his example, he's using bastard sword (36 cut) for the agi build and great long bardiche (46 cut) for the str build.... and values are against 70 armor... 

[Cup1d]

Xant

Ujin said 4-5 ps is enough. I asked him about viable build with 12 str and 4 ps. Looks like he cant offer good 30'level build.
You do not have full weapon list with only 12 str. Propose your choice instead.


I remember only one 12str succesfull player. It was RedneckIII, he uses balanced awlpike (september-november 2010 it has worse thrust damage than now) with steel shield and often do fantastical 50-0 scores.