cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ujin on December 25, 2011, 11:16:02 pm

Title: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Ujin on December 25, 2011, 11:16:02 pm
enough said.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Xant on December 25, 2011, 11:16:57 pm
Yeah, they're seriously underpowered right now.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Tzar on December 25, 2011, 11:32:20 pm
enough said.

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Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Ujin on December 25, 2011, 11:33:58 pm
That's right Tzar, you've got something in your eye. And you will never be able to make me whine or cry about anything ;)
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Tzar on December 26, 2011, 12:18:05 am
Once Ujin was steamrolling eu1 with hes pals then he took a bolt to the knee  :cry:
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Jacko on December 26, 2011, 12:18:38 am
I hardly 1 shot people anymore.

True story.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Fasader on December 26, 2011, 03:39:29 am
I yawn when I'm sleepy.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: cmp on December 26, 2011, 03:42:44 am
Is it that time again?
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: JihadistMexican on December 26, 2011, 05:07:18 am
Is it that time again?

Yep, Archer nerfing time.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Tot. on December 26, 2011, 05:10:04 am
.

High five fellow crossbow bundle of sticks!

We'll see how far this game goes before it breaks, come on everyone, join the xbow party.  :lol:
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on December 26, 2011, 12:58:47 pm
Ah fuck it just jack the price up on all bows and xbows by 25% and all ammo by 30%.

Muhahahahah welcome to the world of being able to only use shit!

Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Ujin on December 26, 2011, 01:34:01 pm
Remove ladders, increase crossbows price 5 -7 % and make them ~ 10 % more dependant on wpf + nerf that goddamn mace every xbowman uses nowadays, reduce archers accuracy by a bit, slow down all ranged characters , increase horses' prices by 10-15 % . That's the way i see it at least.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Tzar on December 26, 2011, 03:27:18 pm
Remove ladders, increase crossbows price 5 -7 % and make them ~ 10 % more dependant on wpf + nerf that goddamn mace every xbowman uses nowadays, reduce archers accuracy by a bit, slow down all ranged characters , increase horses' prices by 10-15 % . That's the way i see it at least.

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Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Ujin on December 26, 2011, 03:42:22 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

The only reason you're still on this forums is - titties. So i don't mind , keep it up =).
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 26, 2011, 05:38:54 pm
Remove ladders, increase crossbows price 5 -7 % and make them ~ 10 % more dependant on wpf + nerf that goddamn mace every xbowman uses nowadays, reduce archers accuracy by a bit, slow down all ranged characters , increase horses' prices by 10-15 % . That's the way i see it at least.

Yeah for sure, just nerf everything, that has to do with ranged, again :rolleyes:
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Ujin on December 26, 2011, 06:22:54 pm
Yeah for sure, just nerf everything, that has to do with ranged, again :rolleyes:
Archers are the main cause of increasing (and it's not stopping so far) ranged spam, xbowmen on the other hand are their main counter in the infantry department, but since not everyone wants to go pure crossbow build, they take lighter crossbows and lower wpf to counter archers. By the end of the day what we get is a roof full of people, most of whom made ranged characters to actually counter other ranged, but it's non -ranged classes that suffer from this the most. As for archers accuracy - it's easier to snipe people with bows in warband than to shoot them with guns in bf3.

My reason  for the  increased cav prices  is if the ranged get nerfed but the amount of cav stays , ranged are pretty much screwed. Screwed ranged = ifantry getting decimated by cav. By increasing the prices for horses cavalry players will have to go infantry more often due to upkeep, therefore lowering the amount of cav.


Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on December 26, 2011, 08:30:11 pm
if it nerfs cav, im for it
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Okkam on December 27, 2011, 12:38:35 pm
Our balance team like suggesting about historical facts.

Please, show any proof of the accuracy of the medieval crossbow!

ATM this this miracle of medieval thought shoots as precision rifles.
And this is clear bullshit with unstable flight of short arbalests bolts.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2011, 01:16:44 pm
WHY DONT YOU SHOW YOUR PROOFS FIRST?


Also, please discuss arbalest accuracy with our crossbow "expert" DaveUKR.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on December 27, 2011, 02:01:18 pm
People seem to miss this whole thing that was invented millennia ago. Made of wood, some times steal. Really useful in... damn it what's that thing called?

FUCK!

Oh yeah a battle... A SHIELD! ITS A SHIELD. That's right you use a shield to stop people from shooting you in the face. You are not god, this isn't a rambo simulator in which you pwn everything and dance around screaming "I am so great, I am so great."

If this is your wish, crack open SP, export char, set str to over 9000 and agi to 600 and run around naked gutting armies like a Japanese fish factory employee. Knife a go in, guts a come out. That's what franks fish concern is all about.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Okkam on December 27, 2011, 02:06:13 pm
SO? YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROOF, RIGHT?

I know who is DaveUKR, doubt that he is an expert in this case.
If I'm wrong, I am happy to look at his proofs.



FRANK_THE_TANK
don't you know, that we have high probability, that  bolt can penetrate shield in this game?
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: v/onMega on December 27, 2011, 02:34:49 pm
Players who overplayed the game / mod mostly asking for changes in an  unfriendly, offensive manner.

Devs react in their typicall "i cant hear this shit anymore", bitchy manner....:-)

As far as I remember, ranged always annoyed melee, and I also remember times much worse then the current situation....

Its not perfect, but okay.

On the other hand, what do I know :-)
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Ujin on December 27, 2011, 02:47:48 pm
Players who overplayed the game / mod mostly asking for changes in an  unfriendly, offensive manner.

Devs react in their typicall "i cant hear this shit anymore", bitchy manner....:-)

As far as I remember, ranged always annoyed melee, and I also remember times much worse then the current situation....

Its not perfect, but okay.

On the other hand, what do I know :-)
Wrong , whatever the manner the players use to communicate, devs either reply with trolling or "i can't hear this shit anymore" attitude . =)

I really don't think my suggestions are that harsh, they're just aimed at lowering the amount of ranged which appeared to counter other ranged in the first place.

P.S. to the smartass # 34242324 with the "use the shield* argument - nope.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Tzar on December 27, 2011, 02:54:50 pm
Wrong , whatever the manner the players use to communicate, devs either reply with trolling or "i can't hear this shit anymore" attitude . =)

I really don't think my suggestions are that harsh, they're just aimed at lowering the amount of ranged which appeared to counter other ranged in the first place.

P.S. to the smartass # 34242324 with the "use the shield* argument - nope.

Rolf Get a shield lmao noob learn2play:!: :!:
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2011, 03:27:48 pm
What I was making fun of was that Okkam wants a change of the status quo and loudly demands proofs why it is how it is now. These are the methods of creationists. Sadly for him it doesn't work that way. If you want to change something you have to deliver the proofs that confirm your point of view.

For Ujin:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Ujin on December 27, 2011, 03:42:32 pm

For Ujin:
(click to show/hide)

The amount of crossbows on the battlefield has definetly been increasing during the last couple of months, it's not in my head, i take my pills every day.

I had all types of characters throughout my cRPG career, including archer and xbow, so no thanks . Gotta say though, many other crpg players are following your advice  as we speak, without even seeing it.


Why don't you guys just remove the ladders/slow down the ranged classes / pick any other option out of the numerous suggested  and see how it goes ?
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: justme on December 27, 2011, 03:52:42 pm
People seem to miss this whole thing that was invented millennia ago. Made of wood, some times steal. Really useful in... damn it what's that thing called?

FUCK!

Oh yeah a battle... A SHIELD! ITS A SHIELD. That's right you use a shield to stop people from shooting you in the face. You are not god, this isn't a rambo simulator in which you pwn everything and dance around screaming "I am so great, I am so great."

If this is your wish, crack open SP, export char, set str to over 9000 and agi to 600 and run around naked gutting armies like a Japanese fish factory employee. Knife a go in, guts a come out. That's what franks fish concern is all about.

i just love when somebody mention shield.. and then i see shielder moving to the archer with raised shield and still die from headshoot...
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: DaveUKR on December 27, 2011, 03:58:49 pm
Why the hell do you call me an "expert" of crossbows? I'm not. I just had my A+ mark on physics in school. Bow just can't be more accurate than an crossbow, no matter how good you are with your bow.

You're playing the game which can't calculate all the factors and some of game mechanics were made for native so they can't be actual for crpg. I'm all for nerfing/changing all ranged weapons. Read my other thread.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2011, 04:02:34 pm
So you are ok with reducing arbalest accuracy by a good amount?

Edit: I'm all for removing ladders from battle because it creates a wrong image of how strong ranged really is in cRPG.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Gnjus on December 27, 2011, 04:19:00 pm
For Ujin:
(click to show/hide)

Indeed Ujin, you should listen to this wise developer who knows everything, even the reason itself why i respeced into a horse archer. Mind you Ujin - he and his methods are in charge of things around here for like 18 months so far and what he calls "battle" was always so "balanced" & "battle looking" as it is now. He's even so clever to mock my miserable scores even tho it's the first time ever i play any form of archer in this mod and my builds are far from finished. Also he is naming us as the ones crying about OP archery while its not really what we were every saying but too bad he has problems with comprehension at a basic level. I think it's time to establish the "Paul award" for people who excel themselves in the forums. Oh wait, it's already been established and this year it went to Jambi. Ah well, we will have to do better next year, you and I, mister Ujin since the competition is very strong.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: DaveUKR on December 27, 2011, 04:50:10 pm
So you are ok with reducing arbalest accuracy by a good amount?

Edit: I'm all for removing ladders from battle because it creates a wrong image of how strong ranged really is in cRPG.

If removing ladders, increasing the price and reducing the reload speed won't decrease the amount of crossbowmen then i'm okay with that. Though archers should stay less accurate in any way.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on December 27, 2011, 05:47:39 pm
Though archers should stay less accurate in any way.

Why do you think that a bow is allways less accurate than a xbow?
The crossbow has still the same mechanism as the bow.

The only reason to use a crossbow in the history was the (often) higher damage and the simple usage,
but not the "better" accuracy.

A good trained archer in the middle ages was able to hit a small targed in a distance of 200 meters.
You can read this in many books.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 27, 2011, 06:01:32 pm
Get a shield.
Get Ironflesh.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2011, 06:21:56 pm
A good trained archer in the middle ages was able to hit a small targed in a distance of 200 meters.
You can read this in many books.

That's bullshit imo. I have read the same but I think this is mainly longbow propaganda. I have successfully shot at a 200 meter away men sized target - with a modern military rifle and sights in prone position. With a sightless bow and a projectile starting velocity of 1/10 of such a firearm you might hit a men reliably at 50m or even up to 100m but above that it's an area weapon in my opinion.

Still, in Warband the maximum engagement range is 100m, which is basicly spawn to spawn distance for most (big) maps. Most shooting happens <50m, mostly even <20m. And at that distance bows AND crossbows should be somewhat accurate - at least to that degree that one can hit a standing target surely.

For the proposed accuracy nerf: I don't like it. In my theory there are 2 ways to decrease ranged chance to hit for a single shot. Decreasing minimum reticule size and decreasing shot speed. While the first makes the game more random, decreases player skill impact and turns cRPG into the dice roll based MMO so many people seem to love, I always favour the 2nd option. With a low shot speed but still tight reticule player skill still counts in terms of anticipating target movement/behaviour and hitting immobile targets with the first try.
So that's what we did. We decreased archery shot speed by a big amount not long ago.

For now I'd just remove ladders and see what impact it has. No further nerfs needed but maybe upkeep increase for crossbows imo.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: ArchonAlarion on December 27, 2011, 07:45:30 pm
I like that philosophy Paul; C-rpg should be a skill based game wherever possible.

It's been suggested numerous times before, but an engineering skill, on which the difficulty of siege equipment is based (ladders still being 0 and removed from battle), would complement dedicated crossbowmen nicely as they are generally campers and have extra skill points to spend. Ideally the idea would be to allow engineers (probably crossbowmen) to camp more effectively (but not in unreachable areas in battle given the removal of ladders), but reduce their individual power in favor of strategy and support/fortification. Siege shields and structures would need a buff, price adjustment, etc. I guess it's something that seems awesome, but might not be workable given programming, item slots (less of problem in siege, with item box, or with teamwork), and balance.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 27, 2011, 07:50:10 pm
I won't say, that I know it was possible or not, to hit such a target as sebastian described, because even historians do not really know everything about crossbows and bows and how strong and accurate they really were.
I think these historians should come to our forums and talk to the pros here, because it seems everyone here knows more than all the historians out there ^^   :rolleyes:

Paul, as I said, I don't know, if it was possible to hit a target in a distance of 200 meters or not, but you can hardly compare yourself to any medieval archer, who has trained day after day for half his life.
And also guns are not really something you can compare with a bow^^

You will remove ladders? UUhhhh that's going to be funny :D

Btw, good choice to keep archery as it is for now. There have been enough archery nerfs and people are still and always will be complaining about archery.  Just be happy guys, that your class hasn't been nerfed patch after patch  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Inkompetent on December 27, 2011, 07:55:20 pm
Archery is good atm. It's crossbows that need some seeing to, and a large bit of that is because it doesn't require any skill points what so ever. I like the engineering-idea a lot.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on December 27, 2011, 08:00:05 pm
That's bullshit imo. I have read the same but I think this is mainly longbow propaganda. I have successfully shot at a 200 meter away men sized target - with a modern military rifle and sights in prone position. With a sightless bow and a projectile starting velocity of 1/10 of such a firearm you might hit a men reliably at 50m or even up to 100m but above that it's an area weapon in my opinion.
No the target at 200m was definently not human sized. It was a target of 2x2 to 3x3 meters, but at this range it is short :wink:.
And I think this is not some kind of propaganda.

I build and shot medieval bows myself in RL and its really possible to hit this kind of targed at this distance...
but you have to train some years to do such shots.

Still, in Warband the maximum engagement range is 100m, which is basicly spawn to spawn distance for most (big) maps. Most shooting happens <50m, mostly even <20m. And at that distance bows AND crossbows should be somewhat accurate - at least to that degree that one can hit a standing target surely.
100meter from spawn to spawn on big maps?
I dont believe it.

I measured the distance from spawn to spawn on the ruins map (and this is a small/medium map);
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I guess a big map is 4 times larger than this.
(correct me if this is wrong)
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 27, 2011, 08:21:20 pm
Well, ruins is a big map for me (compared to nord town, etc.). So 100m as the maximum engagement distance fits pretty well imo.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: cmp on December 27, 2011, 10:28:49 pm
The playable area in ruins is 100x100 m, so assuming the spawns are at upper left and lower right corners, the distance between them is ~141m.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Lichen on December 27, 2011, 10:42:13 pm
I'd like to see crossbows made the same as bows; bolts determine damage type.  Also different bolts could be heavier and lighter affecting their initial speed, momentum and trajectory which you need to fire.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: MadJackMcMad on December 28, 2011, 04:01:39 pm
Still, in Warband the maximum engagement range is 100m, which is basicly spawn to spawn distance for most (big) maps. Most shooting happens <50m, mostly even <20m. And at that distance bows AND crossbows should be somewhat accurate - at least to that degree that one can hit a standing target surely.

Currently with 160 crossbow, a masterwork arbalest and a haubergeon, hitting a standing target at 20m is a dice roll.  The reticle is large enough for the bolt to capably pass to either side of the target.  The previous accuracy nerf was acceptable, as with proficiency you could still maintain a degree of accuracy, but things are now starting to get crippling.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Tot. on December 28, 2011, 04:42:24 pm
A good trained archer in the middle ages was able to hit a small targed in a distance of 200 meters.
You can read this in many books.

This is true, you surely can.
The problem is that there needs to be 100 archers firing in a volley to actually kill the target* so far away since your acceptable accuracy when aiming at specific target ends at 50m.  :lol:

Bow and arrows were spam weapons, not sniper rifles, deal with it.

* Oh, and your "target" can't be wearing any sort of actual armor. But you surely know that as you "read many books".



For now I'd just remove ladders and see what impact it has. No further nerfs needed but maybe upkeep increase for crossbows imo.

About time, I just rerolled cav and strongly demand indirect buffs to my class balancing things out.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Arrowblood on December 28, 2011, 04:53:54 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KR0pvYkZy7A#t=28s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KR0pvYkZy7A#t=28s)
hes able to snipe
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 28, 2011, 04:59:44 pm
The piercing test is shit. Also in the far shooting test at 200 yards, he is shooting with an angle that appears to me to be about 45° - the maximum range angle. It is also stated that the arrow starts with 193 feet per second, that is 59 m/s. Launched from the strongest longbow. In cRPG the longbow shoots with 63 m/s at minimum PD (6). At 10 PD it even gets up to 70 m/s. Also, he missed pretty often.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Arrowblood on December 28, 2011, 05:13:17 pm
but i just noticed that the newest update fucked the  accuracy of my bow thx no acc bonus for mws. :evil:
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 28, 2011, 05:23:14 pm
No, the newest update fixed a bug from last patch which broke archery wpf reduction with high PD.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Cup1d on December 28, 2011, 05:24:47 pm
Archery was overpowered yesterday?

What can our Mr.Statistic say?
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Arrowblood on December 28, 2011, 05:25:58 pm
my mw longbow ingame have 100 accuracy, like the normal longbow.
the site says it have 102???
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 28, 2011, 05:33:08 pm
It's prolly a display error ingame.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on December 28, 2011, 07:54:17 pm
Currently with 160 crossbow, a masterwork arbalest and a haubergeon, hitting a standing target at 20m is a dice roll.  The reticle is large enough for the bolt to capably pass to either side of the target.  The previous accuracy nerf was acceptable, as with proficiency you could still maintain a degree of accuracy, but things are now starting to get crippling.

Well then you should go and train a bit o.O   Never heard of anyone who has problems over such a small distance with a mw arbalest and 160wpf



Btw Paul and Sebastian, what are you actually talking about?  I somehow missed the aim of your discussion^^
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on December 28, 2011, 08:23:34 pm
No, the newest update fixed a bug from last patch which broke archery wpf reduction with high PD.
I was wondering why my crosshair was nearly closed, and why my aim was for 4sec accurate. :wink:

The playable area in ruins is 100x100 m, so assuming the spawns are at upper left and lower right corners, the distance between them is ~141m.
The playable area is 230x230 m... I measured it in the map editor.
On big maps it is 680x680 m.

Btw Paul and Sebastian, what are you actually talking about?  I somehow missed the aim of your discussion^^
We are testing out, who knows the most about ranged weapons :P
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: cmp on December 28, 2011, 09:12:27 pm
The playable area is 230x230 m... I measured it in the map editor.
On big maps it is 680x680 m.

My bad, read the wrong values. It's not 250 m from spawn to spawn though, more like 190/200 (you can check spawn point coords in edit-mode).
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Fasader on December 29, 2011, 05:07:38 am
italian public schools not teaching little giuseppes how to read!
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: BlindGuy on December 29, 2011, 06:34:37 am
@Paul: sure he missed, he is firing a warbow with over 200 pound draw, and despite the hype hes given by the show, hes pretty scrawny: Hes lucky he hit it at all with that bow. A bow of 200 pound draw, at under 100 yards, is 1shotkill anything in the way: Plate armour might not be penetrated by flatheads but the force of the blow will still render the receiver out of action. So unless you gonna give archers knockdown, dont use real life as a basis for any balance discussion. Cause if you did, you would also need to implement: Hornbow needs MASSIVE nerf or unusable on horseback tag, since it can oneshot anyone up to 20 armour/10 STR with right arrows, walking thru a river with a bow or crossbow INSTANTLY makes them despawn (to represent how they instantly become unusable), crossbows need a random chance that when they are fired the crossbow malfunctions and is despawned, archers need to occasianally "fluff" their draws and need to re-knock, any armour over weight, say, 10, causes running/swinging/blocking speed to drop over the course of the round, so plate wearers are barely moving by round end, since they sprint everywhere all the time. Hmmm what else....O yeah when someone with a 6foot greatsword "feints", the bones in their wrist pop out of joint from the massive torque they recieve, taking 2 javelins into your shield makes it despawn since the ENTIRE purpose of jarids was to make opponents shield too unbalanced to use...hmmm, horses take dmg when bumping armoured opponents, and they slow as they take dmg.....hmm, what else what else....give bows block, but make their bow take dmg like a shield does, so they can block if they like, but they risk the bow....


Or you guys could concentrate on making the game fun again by giving choices: currently, to be effective, realistically the vast majority of players need: German GS/Hornbow/Warbow/Poleaxe/Hafted Blade/Scimitar/GL axe or similar: WHY are there so many weapon on the market if only a few are gonna be effective...

Also, polestun: a mechanic so native spearmen can occasianally kill an archer, doesnt need to be here. Why should being thwacked with a staff stun me more than being sideswiped by a morningstar? I reckon opposite is true...so many more things but its 6.30 am and I got to be up at 8....o dear forum why you make me no sleep?!


EDIT: one more: reloading a heavy crossbow or arbalest on dirt or earth when its raining: instant despawn as the winch is full of mud and unusable. Crossbows were really delicate and very unreliable, and their accuracy is greatly overstated in this game.


Oh and btw: I can hit stationary target with a handgun at 200 yards 9/10, with my 90" longbow I can shoot a 6foot group at 100 yards: ppl in real life cannot instantly change direction while wearing armour like they can in crpg: archery is LESS effective than real life when it comes to dmg and accuracy, but even with the animations now, you cannot simulate the drawing of a bow: sometimes you can fly arrows out, accurately, every 5 seconds, sometimes everything is going wrong and you get only 3 out in a minute.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 29, 2011, 09:00:02 am
I stopped reading at the 200 pound thingy.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Xant on December 29, 2011, 09:03:45 am
ppl in real life cannot instantly change direction while wearing armour like they can in crpg

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Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: BlindGuy on December 29, 2011, 12:52:40 pm
(click to show/hide)

@Paul: why, you think you could survive being shot by the English warbow (a longbow of 180 pounds or more draw)?

Cause, maybe you could, but you wouldnt be fighting anyone...you'd need some serious bedrest.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Inkompetent on December 29, 2011, 12:57:04 pm
@Paul: why, you think you could survive being shot by the English warbow (a longbow of 180 pounds or more draw)?

If at 50+ meters distance and in proper plate I can't see why not, as long as the arrow doesn't hit a glitch or weak spot. Since the game doesn't model those we got a bit of an issue though.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Paul on December 29, 2011, 01:14:41 pm
I personally doubt that longbows above 160 lbs were used. More likely it was between 120 and 150 lbs, which are still very hard to draw. Many longbow archers were peasants who had to be forced by their king to train once a week. That guy in the video is a trained smith who probably has a more meat on his dinner plate in a month than the peasant in his lifetime. I'm sure he also practises archery more than the historical archer. I'd go as far to say that the best and strongest archers of all time live today.

So unless there was a secret forgotten longbow crafting technique that jacked up the bow efficiency up to composite bow levels, the test conducted today show the true nature ability of the longbow with up to 140 lbs draw weight and v0 = 50-60 m/s . The estimated upper draw weight limit for the Mary Rose bows of 200 lbs are fiction in my opinion. And even then a 200 lbs (one material) longbow wouldn't have a higher v0 or range. It would just be able to launch heavier arrows at about the same speed as weaker longbows launch lighter arrows. The starting velocity is limited by the "spring speed" of the material. This is kind of circumvented by composite bows though.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: djavo on December 29, 2011, 01:24:58 pm
Do you really want this game to be Red Orchestra?

Bows are too strong compared to crossbows, they need to be nerfed to the ground. Add new stat "power camp" for crossbows. Problem solved.
Power camp 3*agi
Need 5 power camp for arbalest
4 for heavy crossbow
3 crossbow
2 light crosbow
1 hunting crossbow

POWER CAMP FTW!
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on December 29, 2011, 08:02:17 pm
I personally doubt that longbows above 160 lbs were used. More likely it was between 120 and 150 lbs, which are still very hard to draw. Many longbow archers were peasants who had to be forced by their king to train once a week. That guy in the video is a trained smith who probably has a more meat on his dinner plate in a month than the peasant in his lifetime. I'm sure he also practises archery more than the historical archer. I'd go as far to say that the best and strongest archers of all time live today.
Don't forget that many archers were trained soilders who trained nearly every day.
And no... the today archers are not the best in the history.

The most knowledge of building and shoting a bow has lost since the renaissance :!:
So the today bowmakers(including me) relearnd everything by "do it your self"...
...there is no literary of bow-craft-techniques in the middle ages.

Go and buy some books about it.

So unless there was a secret forgotten longbow crafting technique that jacked up the bow efficiency up to composite bow levels, the test conducted today show the true nature ability of the longbow with up to 140 lbs draw weight and v0 = 50-60 m/s . The estimated upper draw weight limit for the Mary Rose bows of 200 lbs are fiction in my opinion. And even then a 200 lbs (one material) longbow wouldn't have a higher v0 or range. It would just be able to launch heavier arrows at about the same speed as weaker longbows launch lighter arrows. The starting velocity is limited by the "spring speed" of the material. This is kind of circumvented by composite bows though.
Wrong.
You could shot light arrows with high poundage bows.
It's not only the weight of the arrow which should fit to the bow, it is the spine(the stiffness) of the arrow shaft.
So a weaker bow needs an arrow with a lower spine... and a stronger bow needs a higher spine(but it the arrow weight could be the same).

The range world record of a self-bow(one material) was shot by Chief AJmit with a 200pound yew-warbow, the range was 557m(with flight arrows).
And you know that the weight of a flight arrow is ca. 20 to 30 gramms.



Bows are too strong compared to crossbows, they need to be nerfed to the ground. Add new stat "power camp" for crossbows. Problem solved.
Power camp 3*agi
1. Not really.
2. Power and agi ? That doesn't match.. do it with streght.
And the Arbalest should have a difficulty of 6"PC".
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: Fasader on December 30, 2011, 06:33:26 am
power penis stat for crossbow.
Title: Re: CROSSBOWS.
Post by: BlindGuy on December 30, 2011, 11:59:47 pm
power penis stat for crossbow.
nono, the stat for crossbows is called:
Boring bastard. You need 6 Boring Bastard points to use a Campbalest at the top of the scale, and only 1 Boring bastard point for a Light Campybow.

@Paul: Renaissance "enlightement" has a lot to answer for, for starters they taught a RIDICULOUS archery style, which is carried on into olympic archery of today.

Archery was practised only once a week as a peasant: Once you were drafted (If your landlord said you were going for a soldier, you were going and that's that) you loosed arrows everyday, dont forget the English knights lived or died in France according to how their archers did, since they could never match the weight of numbers or gear fielded by the French. The english werent proud of the fact they used their archers as a primary weapon, but they accepted it, the goverment even sponsored their gear. England went thru so many bowstaves that large parts of european woodland suffered HUGE privations, due to loss of the entire population of yew. For 200 years, ANY ship that wished to dock in England HAD to bring yew bowstaves as an import tax, some for each measure of anything else they brought (the number varied according to need).

You cant honestly mean to tell me that all of that was done if the archers had not been OP. They were obviously OP. As to weights: I could draw 90 pounder when I was 15, I now confortably draw a 140 pounder and can hit the butts at 100 yards with 9 of 12. I'm not even 6 feet tall. A large man can shoot 180 pounds 200 yards with 50% bunches, and I can easily believe a seasoned pro can draw 200 and 220 pounds without rupturing himself. I would probably drop a trousertrout if I tried, but I'm scrawny too.

As to that blacksmith getting more meat than an archer from way back when: Archers dont go hungry mate, they got bows...