CROSSBOWS.

[DaveUKR]

So you are ok with reducing arbalest accuracy by a good amount?

Edit: I'm all for removing ladders from battle because it creates a wrong image of how strong ranged really is in cRPG.

If removing ladders, increasing the price and reducing the reload speed won't decrease the amount of crossbowmen then i'm okay with that. Though archers should stay less accurate in any way.

[_Sebastian_]

Though archers should stay less accurate in any way.

Why do you think that a bow is allways less accurate than a xbow?
The crossbow has still the same mechanism as the bow.

The only reason to use a crossbow in the history was the (often) higher damage and the simple usage,
but not the "better" accuracy.

A good trained archer in the middle ages was able to hit a small targed in a distance of 200 meters.
You can read this in many books.

[Gravoth_iii]

Get a shield.
Get Ironflesh.

[Paul]

A good trained archer in the middle ages was able to hit a small targed in a distance of 200 meters.
You can read this in many books.

That's bullshit imo. I have read the same but I think this is mainly longbow propaganda. I have successfully shot at a 200 meter away men sized target - with a modern military rifle and sights in prone position. With a sightless bow and a projectile starting velocity of 1/10 of such a firearm you might hit a men reliably at 50m or even up to 100m but above that it's an area weapon in my opinion.

Still, in Warband the maximum engagement range is 100m, which is basicly spawn to spawn distance for most (big) maps. Most shooting happens <50m, mostly even <20m. And at that distance bows AND crossbows should be somewhat accurate - at least to that degree that one can hit a standing target surely.

For the proposed accuracy nerf: I don't like it. In my theory there are 2 ways to decrease ranged chance to hit for a single shot. Decreasing minimum reticule size and decreasing shot speed. While the first makes the game more random, decreases player skill impact and turns cRPG into the dice roll based MMO so many people seem to love, I always favour the 2nd option. With a low shot speed but still tight reticule player skill still counts in terms of anticipating target movement/behaviour and hitting immobile targets with the first try.
So that's what we did. We decreased archery shot speed by a big amount not long ago.

For now I'd just remove ladders and see what impact it has. No further nerfs needed but maybe upkeep increase for crossbows imo.

[ArchonAlarion]

I like that philosophy Paul; C-rpg should be a skill based game wherever possible.

It's been suggested numerous times before, but an engineering skill, on which the difficulty of siege equipment is based (ladders still being 0 and removed from battle), would complement dedicated crossbowmen nicely as they are generally campers and have extra skill points to spend. Ideally the idea would be to allow engineers (probably crossbowmen) to camp more effectively (but not in unreachable areas in battle given the removal of ladders), but reduce their individual power in favor of strategy and support/fortification. Siege shields and structures would need a buff, price adjustment, etc. I guess it's something that seems awesome, but might not be workable given programming, item slots (less of problem in siege, with item box, or with teamwork), and balance.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

I won't say, that I know it was possible or not, to hit such a target as sebastian described, because even historians do not really know everything about crossbows and bows and how strong and accurate they really were.
I think these historians should come to our forums and talk to the pros here, because it seems everyone here knows more than all the historians out there ^^   

Paul, as I said, I don't know, if it was possible to hit a target in a distance of 200 meters or not, but you can hardly compare yourself to any medieval archer, who has trained day after day for half his life.
And also guns are not really something you can compare with a bow^^

You will remove ladders? UUhhhh that's going to be funny

Btw, good choice to keep archery as it is for now. There have been enough archery nerfs and people are still and always will be complaining about archery.  Just be happy guys, that your class hasn't been nerfed patch after patch 

[Inkompetent]

Archery is good atm. It's crossbows that need some seeing to, and a large bit of that is because it doesn't require any skill points what so ever. I like the engineering-idea a lot.

[_Sebastian_]

That's bullshit imo. I have read the same but I think this is mainly longbow propaganda. I have successfully shot at a 200 meter away men sized target - with a modern military rifle and sights in prone position. With a sightless bow and a projectile starting velocity of 1/10 of such a firearm you might hit a men reliably at 50m or even up to 100m but above that it's an area weapon in my opinion.

No the target at 200m was definently not human sized. It was a target of 2x2 to 3x3 meters, but at this range it is short .
And I think this is not some kind of propaganda.

I build and shot medieval bows myself in RL and its really possible to hit this kind of targed at this distance...
but you have to train some years to do such shots.

Still, in Warband the maximum engagement range is 100m, which is basicly spawn to spawn distance for most (big) maps. Most shooting happens <50m, mostly even <20m. And at that distance bows AND crossbows should be somewhat accurate - at least to that degree that one can hit a standing target surely.

100meter from spawn to spawn on big maps?
I dont believe it.

I measured the distance from spawn to spawn on the ruins map (and this is a small/medium map);
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I guess a big map is 4 times larger than this.
(correct me if this is wrong)

[Paul]

Well, ruins is a big map for me (compared to nord town, etc.). So 100m as the maximum engagement distance fits pretty well imo.

[cmp]

The playable area in ruins is 100x100 m, so assuming the spawns are at upper left and lower right corners, the distance between them is ~141m.

[Lichen]

I'd like to see crossbows made the same as bows; bolts determine damage type.  Also different bolts could be heavier and lighter affecting their initial speed, momentum and trajectory which you need to fire.

[MadJackMcMad]

Still, in Warband the maximum engagement range is 100m, which is basicly spawn to spawn distance for most (big) maps. Most shooting happens <50m, mostly even <20m. And at that distance bows AND crossbows should be somewhat accurate - at least to that degree that one can hit a standing target surely.

Currently with 160 crossbow, a masterwork arbalest and a haubergeon, hitting a standing target at 20m is a dice roll.  The reticle is large enough for the bolt to capably pass to either side of the target.  The previous accuracy nerf was acceptable, as with proficiency you could still maintain a degree of accuracy, but things are now starting to get crippling.

[Tot.]

A good trained archer in the middle ages was able to hit a small targed in a distance of 200 meters.
You can read this in many books.

This is true, you surely can.
The problem is that there needs to be 100 archers firing in a volley to actually kill the target* so far away since your acceptable accuracy when aiming at specific target ends at 50m. 

Bow and arrows were spam weapons, not sniper rifles, deal with it.

* Oh, and your "target" can't be wearing any sort of actual armor. But you surely know that as you "read many books".

For now I'd just remove ladders and see what impact it has. No further nerfs needed but maybe upkeep increase for crossbows imo.

About time, I just rerolled cav and strongly demand indirect buffs to my class balancing things out.

[Arrowblood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KR0pvYkZy7A#t=28s
hes able to snipe

[Paul]

The piercing test is shit. Also in the far shooting test at 200 yards, he is shooting with an angle that appears to me to be about 45° - the maximum range angle. It is also stated that the arrow starts with 193 feet per second, that is 59 m/s. Launched from the strongest longbow. In cRPG the longbow shoots with 63 m/s at minimum PD (6). At 10 PD it even gets up to 70 m/s. Also, he missed pretty often.

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