cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Formless on February 17, 2011, 08:53:48 pm
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(This a long post but it includes necessary description of melee dynamics for those who are not familiar with them. Sorry for the size but I hope the content is enlightening.)
Lets talk about crushtrhough in step by step logical way to see if it is overpowered or not:
There are only 3 types of attacks that you can do with a crushtrhough weapon like a barmace weapon: Left, Right, Overhead,
And there are only 4 blocks you can do with any other melee weapon: Left, Right, Overhead, Thrust.
With a crushtrhough weapon you get to ignore 1 of the blocks part of the time. That means that 33% of your attack arsenal has the potential to punch thru and hit your opponent even if he blocks properly. But since you know that 1 of the 3 strikes that you can launch is partially unblockable you will throw that attack more often. So 33% of your attack arsenal will now be used 50% + of the time. So more then 50%+ of the strikes you throw have the potential of going thru even if your opponent blocks properly.
The standard advice of combating crushtrhough chars is just move out of the way or maneuver. In one way its good advice in another that advice ignores the in build mechanics of the game for 2 reasons:
1.) Character Build
2.) Melee Game Mechanics
Character Build
Let's take a person who wants to create a crushtrhough barmace character. He knows the needs high PowerStrike for a greater chance of crushtrhough so he knows he needs a strength build. He goes with 24 str and 8PS. Well he also knows that most people will try to maneuver out of his way so he converts some points and gets athletics 5. Now if you look around the Character build page most people have athletics of 6 to 7. Split the difference you get 6.5. Moving backwards a character with 6.5 athletics is slower then a char with athletics of 5 moving forwards. So while you can slip from side to side and backwards out of the way of 1 or 2 or even 3 strikes, a determined str crushtrhough char will be able to chase most people down and get them into melee range with the barmace. Now what happens once they are within melee range?
Melee Game Mechanics
(if you are interested in a longer discussion on melee mechanics I posted an explanation of melee game mechanics here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1545.0.html)
Basically The games melee mechanics work very much in a turn base way:
Lets say your opponent is the first to launch an attack, you block. This is the end of his attack phase and the beginning of yours. You attack and your opponent blocks. This is the end of your attack phase. Opponent attacks and you block, this ends his attack phase and is the beginning of yours. I am sure by now you get the picture. But what happens if your opponent chooses to attack again after his attack phase is already over? Answer, if your opponent chooses to try to hit you after his formal attack phase is over, and swings during your attack phase, you will hit him with your swing since this is your attack phase. Even if he has greater wpf and a faster weapon he will not be able to outswing you during your attack phase.
You can make small movements and still be in your attack turn, however if you make large movements it eats your attack phase and then your opponent is in his attack phase, where you will not be able to outswing him.
What does this mean?
Lets assume both players have good melee skills :)
Crushtrhough guy runs at you with barmace raised overhead for a strike. What are your choices:
1.) Move back
2.) Maneuver left or Right or diagonally
3.) Block
4.) Attack
Lets examine your choices:
Move Back
Well we already know that with athletics of 5 moving forward the crushtru guy will be able to chase down the majority of the Crpg community with athletics of 6.5 and bring them into melee range of his crushtru weapon.
What happens: Crushtrhough guys charges. You move back, the crushtrhough guys chases you down, CRUNCH. So not the best choice then.
Maneuver left or right or diagonally
You want to slip by the big bad guy with the giant baseball bat.
What happens: Crushtrhough guy charges. You move diagonally right. Crushtrhough guy swings and missed, what a fool you think as you prepare to strike him. Just as you are about to swing, CRUNCH. WTF??!!??? You scream at your screen.
What actually happened was rather subtle. You got caught violating the melee mechanics of the game. When the crushtrhough guy charged and you moved out of the way, you moved too far and your movement ate your attack phase. When you went to swing you were no longer in your attack phase you were in the crushtrhough guys attack phase. So he outswung you and you got CRUNCHED.
(The only way to make large movements and remain in your attack phase is to have very high athletics and since we are assuming 6.5 as the average in the CRPG community it is not enough.)
Now what also could have happened is: Crushtrhough guy charged. You moved diagnoll right. Crushtrhough swings and misses. Crushtrhough guy got confused by the change of direction or hesitated. His hesitation or confusion ate up his attack phase and you were able to swing and hit him. But remember we are assuming you are going against a player with skill here, so his recovery time is good and he will not likely get confused and he will not hesitate. So maneuvering left, right or diagonally not the best option then.
Block
Against better judgment you block :(
What happens: Crushtrhough guy charges with barmace raised overhead. He swings. You block. CRUNCH. But good news you are still alive !!! You go to swing to pay back that evil cheap bastard. Haha you think, I got you no
.. CRUNCH. WTF ?!!??!!
What actually happened was rather subtle :) bet you knew I was going to say that. :) The way the melee mechanics work, is that if you hit an opponent they lose their attack phase and you get another turn. So in this scenario once you got hit with the barmace and tried to swing back, you were not in your attack phase, so you got outswung and killed off. So not the best choice then.
Attack
You see the big bad guy coming at you with the barmace, and you think I am going to MESS THIS MOFO up.
What happens: Crushtrhough guy charges with barmace raised overhead. You step in and attack. He blocks. (I know he should not be allowed to) :) Its his attack phase now. He swings overhead, you go to the other choices (which we already saw):
1. Move back CRUNCH
2. Manuver left or right or diagonally CRUNCH
3. You block Double CRUNCH
4. Attack out of your attack phase CRUNCH
So not the best choice then.
Summary
Therefore after logically examining Crushtrhough based on character build and melee game mechanics I would submit that crushtrhough is overpowered. Whatever option you pick fighting against a crushtrhough guy that option has serious weaknesses If you take 2 equally skilled opponents with the same character build the guy with the crushtrhough has a dominating advantage. Game balance should not work that way, properly balance two equally skilled opponents using similar level of items should battle each other to a draw. This is currently not possible with crushtrhough. Opinions?
P.S
What is my advice on fighting Crushtrhough based characters? Well now you know that 50%+ of the attacks launched against you from a Crushtrhough character will be overheads, I would recommend chambering overhead, followed up by attack. Then maneuver to confuse the guy and make him hesitate and attack again. It works, but again it is not the best of options :) but its the best out of a bad lot.
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Crushthrough goes through chambers.
And since the crushthrough is being removed from the maces, it's easier to just spam the hammers. Most hammer users won't be able to attack at all if you spam properly. Right now, crushthrough is too strong purely because there are fast weapons that can do it, once those cease to exist spam should be enough to counter crushthrough, making it balanced.
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I can only disagree with one thing here - character build.
With a heirloomed barmace and 5ps you will crush through a greatsword or elegant poleaxe 90% of the time.
Good luck outspamming or outrunning the guy with more athletics, agility, wpf and weapon speed than you.
I recomend this approach until it is fixed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc
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You need to either be able to move backwards faster than he runs forward or outspam him so even if he blocks, he won't be able to attack back before you hit him again. The imbalance of the barmace was exactly this point, it was possible to crush through with a balanced build, so the two counters were nullified. CT on the barmace is being removed already FYI. Then you can only use a maul for CT, like the great maul, which is suceptible to both counters, because it's slow, short and weighs alot and this weight slows you down visibly.
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Some things to add...
Option 2 move diagionally...
Palatro runs at you with an overhead charged, you dart to the side, he crushes you into paste 99% of the time. highly skilled crushers will not lose track of you regardless of your dodging.
also to mention, 8 powerstrike barmace does not scare me... they crush like 10-20% of the time against my shield. 10 powerstrike seems to be the minimum for effective bar mace crush through... which means 1-3 athletics, in which case my 8 athletics allows me to dodge in and out of range with ease.
Long maul and Great maul on the other hand, require much less power strike. as an example, one player with a triple heirloomed great maul, only needs 4-5 powerstrike to have a 99% crush through rate. this means he has 7-9 athletics... even in his tin can suit, you arent going to get out of his range by back pedaling.
I did a bunch of tests with DieMoar and his long maul, the best thing i could do was to spam... making sure to change from attacking to blocking if he launched a side swing, but not pulling the attack if he throws an overhead... i won about 20% of the fights once i stopped reflexively trying to block the overheads. i did find that aiming my shield up as high as possible would reduce the damage of his crush through though... i guess that helps.
Another thing to mention, chambering crush through is not in any way reliable. im not an expert on this, but i recall friends having tried this strategy and discovering that although they chambered... they got crushed anyway.
i propose a couple of solutions to the current situation.
1. maximum 50% chance to crush through with any crush wep. this way its a gamble.
2. increase strength requirements on crushthrough weapons to a mimimum of 24. this will lower the athletics possessed by most crushers and make it easier to out manuevre them.
3. remove the ability to block with crush through weapons. sure you can ignore our blocks... but we can ignore yours too!
4. remove side swings from crush weapons... the overhead is slow enough that you can usually spam it... the hard part is that you close in for spamming, and they block then launch a quick left counter, forcing you to block while they try to manuevre into a overhead. the good players will consistently block your swings, and eventually they will get to launch an overhead and turn you into paste.
5. get rid of crush through. Mr Gorath often speaks against the idea of turning this game into rock paper scissors, and i find he has a good point. if there are weapons/styles which effectively trump another style, it turns into a game of rock paper scissors... i like the idea of soft counters... if you worry about shielders, bring an axe. if you worry about throwers/archers, bring a shield, if you worry about 2handers, get some ranged weps. those are soft counters... a shielder can beat an axe guy, hes just at a disadvantage, a 2h can beat a ranged guy, but hes at a disadvantage and so on. right now the only counter to crush is either use ranged weapons, or sacrifice 2-3 teamates to his maul while the other guys take him out.
personally, im a fan of options 2, 3 and 5. any one of those would balance it out a lot.
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A loomed barmace was (well, techicnally it still is) effective with 7 or 8 ps.
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Dont do anything to CT system or weaps req, but just remove overhead block for CT weaps. You'll see, this will work well.
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barmace loses it's crushthrough and i guess same goes for the iron mace thingy so you pretty much got slow shortrange crushthrough weapons and the long maul :mrgreen:
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I think that crushthrough should simply be more blockable especially for manual blockers. Crushthrough should only be used for countering sheilded players.
Changes
1. Manual blocking should block 90% of the time between two equal players
2. Sheilds should be more vulnerable to crushthrough thus giving the weapons a purpose(i.e Anti sheild). This mean that a player using a shield could put it away to manual block so that the attacker has less of a chance to crushthrough. Hopefully you follow my line of thinking
3. crushthrough weapon speed should be slowed
4. Weapons shouldnt have both Crushthrough and Knockdown, It should be one or the other
I think this would help to balance these weapons while still giving the a purpose and certain advantages in the game. Removing crushthrough completly would be a shame.
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I know this doesn`t bring a lot to what have been saved, but can`t we make it so u can improve your anti-crushthrough defense.
For example your IF could be involved, so a guy with high IF would be harder to crush through?
Sounds like a good idea?
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I know this doesn`t bring a lot to what have been saved, but can`t we make it so u can improve your anti-crushthrough defense.
For example your IF could be involved, so a guy with high IF would be harder to crush through?
Sounds like a good idea?
IF does help, i was 21/15 2h using a great maul, and had to over hand a guy 3 times... also i dont use anything wrong with the great maul or long maul, slow as hell or very short plus slow, cant wait for barmace nerf
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I think that crushthrough should simply be more blockable especially for manual blockers. Crushthrough should only be used for countering sheilded players.
Changes
1. Manual blocking should block 90% of the time between two equal players
2. Sheilds should be more vulnerable to crushthrough thus giving the weapons a purpose(i.e Anti sheild). This mean that a player using a shield could put it away to manual block so that the attacker has less of a chance to crushthrough. Hopefully you follow my line of thinking
3. crushthrough weapon speed should be slowed
4. Weapons shouldnt have both Crushthrough and Knockdown, It should be one or the other
I think this would help to balance these weapons while still giving the a purpose and certain advantages in the game. Removing crushthrough completly would be a shame.
Shields already have a counter in axes and other weapons designed to destroy shields. Why do they need a second, hard counter that renders them useless? Furthermore, an piece of equipment designed to block and deflect large amounts of kinetic force is unable to standa against a maul but someone putting their much smaller and more fragile weapon in the way of a maul is? That makes 0 sense.
Crushthrough is inappropriate and should just be taken out.
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Shields already have a counter in axes and other weapons designed to destroy shields. Why do they need a second, hard counter that renders them useless? Furthermore, an piece of equipment designed to block and deflect large amounts of kinetic force is unable to standa against a maul but someone putting their much smaller and more fragile weapon in the way of a maul is? That makes 0 sense.
Crushthrough is inappropriate and should just be taken out.
then what happens to great maul and long maul? useless? remove? speed increase?
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Yes wtf why should shielders have two counters. Everyone knows that is silly.
Maybe when crushthrough is completlu removed we can just all run around as shielders. Fighting as the same class. Cavalry will become ineffective due to throw spam and you van kiss goodbye to archery.
SERIOUSLY IT WILL BE AWESOME
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Tough it may seem unfair axes and maces are for different opportunities.
An axe is (Should) be the shield eater weapon but there's the famous shields which have 400-600 hp which axes take a bit to destroy so many kill the shielder rather than trying to destroy the shield first.
A mace is the ideal weapon against those people that turtle up and keep on guarding (Either shield or two handed weapon) without ever trying to attack, it's also a good weapon for surprising someone in a corner.
Problem with maces is that no crush through unless it's super light (Spiked Mace) should be able to crush AND at the same time be long and/or fast it would be unfair. Now this is going to get solved on next patch (When?) by removing crush through from iron mace, bar mace and probably studded warclub too so this solves having a long AND fast crush through weapon.
I understand and also hate it when I get hammered but the mauls are short AND slow making them not a favorite weapon to use all the time which is good as it should be only used against the chances I typed above.
Now this: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1343.0.html is something chadz should take into consideration (Not exactly like in the thread but a general idea of changing certain weapons and armor requirement) it would also solve the people who use a crush through weapon while maximizing agility to not make it slow.
That's my opinion feel free to address any complaints against it if you want to.
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To crush through a 2h block with a slow and short mace with only 8 ps doesnt happen very often.
What I see quite often is people failing to block a left swing, getting knocked down and then finished while trying to get up again.
Spamming a axe right swing to destroy a decent shield with 1 hit, then left swing to destroy the guy in decent armor with one more hit is way more effective, not to forget the fabulous greatsword stab that can outreach lances.
It is funny that 2hnoobspammers complain about macers. The macers at least have to block once against every opponent, often many times, with a short and slow weapon.
The greatsword users just dance around, stab, and backpedal, and perhaps once a map use right mouse button.
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A lot of people don't realize that if their opponent misses a swing, their opponent may be able to swing a second time before they can safely counter-attack. I would purposefully whiff a swing in native to bait people into counter-attacking for just this reason with good success, but the numbers in cRPG are not quite so precise with customizable characters. You can't really bet on this working unless you've got a faster weapon and higher WPF.
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Yes wtf why should shielders have two counters. Everyone knows that is silly.
Shields already have a counter in axes and other weapons designed to destroy shields. Why do they need a second, hard counter that renders them useless?
Are you kidding Me? Shields Blocking Throwing axes and all weapons = Counters, as if. Blocking everything at 180 degrees is a massive bonus, not a negative. Just because you can destroy a shield in five swings with an axe doesnt give the axe the advantage.
Players without shields just get hit with throwing axes and have to actually manually block the guy with an axe
Why do they need a second, hard counter that renders them useless?
Useless how? You can block every weapon and projectile in the game with a 180 degree forcefield and its "useless"
because 4 weapons with crushthrough have a chance to injure. Theres a reason they call it easymode.
Removing Crushthrough would just make sheilders better, which isnt what we need.
I agree that crushthrough needs balancing, but removing it just to satify some whiny noobs isnt the answer
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Are you kidding Me? Shields Blocking Throwing axes and all weapons = Counters, as if. Blocking everything at 180 degrees is a massive bonus, not a negative. Just because you can destroy a shield in five swings with an axe doesnt give the axe the advantage.
Players without shields just get hit with throwing axes and have to actually manually block the guy with an axe
Useless how? You can block every weapon and projectile in the game with a 180 degree forcefield and its "useless"
because 4 weapons with crushthrough have a chance to injure. Theres a reason they call it easymode.
Removing Crushthrough would just make sheilders better, which isnt what we need.
I agree that crushthrough needs balancing, but removing it just to satify some whiny noobs isnt the answer
Play 1h + shield at least once please, it could actually prevent you from saying such BS...
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I have played it Many times, I found it to be lame, uninteresting, unchallenging and generally to easy
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Crushthrough does not just affect shielders. It affects anybody who tries to block.
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The 180 degree protection you're talking about works for board shields and maybe, MAYBE for huscarl. Other shields can easily be shot through from angles very close to actualy directly facing the shilder. Since the force field is gone, you are only relatively safe from projectiles and swing ifs your opponent is directly facing you.
If you played shielder many times, you would have known this, as I know it playing an xbowman that enjoys shooting turtles when they think they are safe from me behind their shield.
EDIT: To the OP, I think most people agree on that. Also, as was pointed out, trying to strafe from overhead is most of the times useless, as they will just track you and hit you anyway.
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Other shields can easily be shot through from angles very close to actualy directly facing the shilder. Since the force field is gone, you are only relatively safe from projectiles and swing ifs your opponent is directly facing you.
Obvious, but thanks anyway. Besides this is about crushthrough not your crossbowman charecter named nancy
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My vision of Bar Mace Users:
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This thread is kind of useless since mace crushthrough has already been confirmed to being removed in the next patch.
My personal opinion is that since it is officially being nerfed, use of the barmace with 6ps or more is equivalent to an exploit.
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My vision of Bar Mace Users:
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This thread is kind of useless since mace crushthrough has already been confirmed to being removed in the next patch.
My personal opinion is that since it is officially being nerfed, use of the barmace with 6ps or more is equivalent to an exploit.
I have indeed stopped using it and switched to the great maul vs turtles, and it is exactly as i describe in my posts.I don't make things up like some other guys just to have an advantage in the game, and i support the barmace nerf after countless posts of discussion in the balance discussion forum. Vs a great maul, you can spam, you can backpedal, it is a surprise weapon and after that i can only hit again if with footwork i can make the opponent miss or delay his swing, against good opponents it fails constantly (so good turtles will be OP next patch, and should be balanced later on).
I would also consider an exploit abusing throwing and powerthrow, but when i pointed it out i got votebanned by the throwers... was hilarious but i hate those guys even more now.
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To make it simpler: you cannot block crush-thru weapons so you can only rely on footsteps. However, stepping aside an overhead attack does not work because the attacker can still turn while the mass falls on: the attack will follow the dodge and hit you anyway.
Instead of the current crush-thru ability I would suggest:
- A stunning effect against 2H and polearms (and shields), exactly like the stun effect that 1hander suffers after blocking a 2h or a polearm (i.e. unable to counterattack for 2 seconds);
- Crush-through against 1hander (blocking a maul with one hand... sure! go buy a new wrist!);
- Ability to chamber block crush thru weapons.
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To make it simpler: you cannot block crush-thru weapons so you can only rely on footsteps. However, stepping aside an overhead attack does not work because the attacker can still turn while the mass falls on: the attack will follow the dodge and hit you anyway.
Instead of the current crush-thru ability I would suggest:
- A stunning effect against 2H and polearms (and shields), exactly like the stun effect that 1hander suffers after blocking a 2h or a polearm (i.e. unable to counterattack for 2 seconds);
- Crush-through against 1hander (blocking a maul with one hand... sure! go buy a new wrist!);
- Ability to chamber block crush thru weapons.
+1 - and maybe for some 2H's too (weapons with weight under 2 or something)
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- A stunning effect against 2H and polearms (and shields), exactly like the stun effect that 1hander suffers after blocking a 2h or a polearm (i.e. unable to counterattack for 2 seconds);
- Crush-through against 1hander (blocking a maul with one hand... sure! go buy a new wrist!);
- Ability to chamber block crush thru weapons.
1.There is already a small stun.
2.Its already stuns strongly side blocks and crushes up block.
3.Chambering is easy,especially maul.No one will use overhead then.
In a result mauls will become useless.Stop trying to change game mechanics.It was already balanced in native.Mauls are short,slow,heavy and unbalanced.And dont say that rhodoks in native had low skill,110 is enough to have fast swings,and mallet with great maul mostly crushed through overhead.
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1.There is already a small stun.
2.Its already stuns strongly side blocks and crushes up block.
3.Chambering is easy,especially maul.No one will use overhead then.
In a result mauls will become useless.Stop trying to change game mechanics.It was already balanced.And dont say that rhodoks in native had low skill,110 is enough to have fast swings,and mallet with great maul mostly crushed through overhead.
I disagree on 3. Chambering a maul is quite tricky because of the slow speed. I don't think I chambered you even once yesterday when you were using that mallet. I do think chambering should be changed to counter crush through
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Yes, chambering a maul is a lot harder than chambering a fast sword.
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Yes, chambering a maul is a lot harder than chambering a fast sword.
Then there is something wrong with me.For me its easier to chamber slow weapon. :?
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Anyone that says you cant block a crushthrough is a.) too weak or b.) is using too light a weapon.
Man up and get some STENGTH!!!!
Lets hope great maul / long maul dont get nerfed or the skilled 1hrs will have it way to easy.
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YES! Nerf the only thing that can counter the one handers. We just get more one hander (and more thrower) after the crushtrough is removed. They have strong shields and can onehit people -.-. Make crushtrough weapons slower instead of removing the crushtrough...
Edit: And bar mace and long iron mace is short..
Edit:Another idea, give back crushtrough on the 3rd heirloom..that would be fair, you have to work a lot for it.
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YES! Nerf the only thing that can counter the one handers. We just get more one hander (and more thrower) after the crushtrough is removed. They have strong shields and can onehit people -.-. Make crushtrough weapons slower instead of removing the crushtrough...
Edit: And bar mace and long iron mace is short..
Honestly,everything can counter 1h.I never felt like hammers and axes are "weapon against shielder",its just heavy cheap weapon with high damage.
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Honestly,everything can counter 1h.I never felt like hammers and axes are "weapon against shielder",its just heavy cheap weapon with high damage.
Tell me, how can you counter an 1h with pick (which is the most distracting weapon) without any bonus? Try a weapon without bonus, most 1 handers rape you, and thx by the 1h speed buff they spam like crazy. But I think balance is fine now, every class can be annoying.
Edit: I never had problems with the crushtrough guys so I really don't understand why people crying about them. Their short range is really a big disadvantage. It's harder to fight with a short weapon, if you don't belive try it out.
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Very good post with only a very few not-so-important mistake.
In my opinon, crushthrough weapons shoud be support weapons, you could
suddenly,rarely strike down to shielders, so I would implement some kind of stun
after you launched a strike with your barmace. So just deny attacking (and maybe blocking) for like 2 sec after attack.
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Tell me, how can you counter an 1h with pick (which is the most distracting weapon) without any bonus? Try a weapon without bonus, most 1 handers rape you, and thx by the 1h speed buff they spam like crazy. But I think balance is fine now, every class can be annoying.
Edit: I never had problems with the crushtrough guys so I really don't understand why people crying about them. Their short range is really a big disadvantage. It's harder to fight with a short weapon, if you don't belive try it out.
"1h speed buff they spam like crazy"
see right here, now I see your problem, you haven't played the game long enough.
To beat SPAM, you have to BLOCK, the only way to die to SPAM is not to BLOCK or COUNTER ATTACK and to literally let yourself be swung at over and over and over until you're dead.
Of course in CRPG there are many other variables to take into account (level of your toon vs opponents) but thats the basics of it, if you are not going to block or try and attack back why would they stop cutting you up? It's not spam if you can block.
@Momo, buy a BIG AXE & learn to block. there is your counter.
the only problem with crushthrough is the damn Barmace and Long Iron Mace, they are almost as fast as swords, almost as long as swords, can knockdown, can crushthrough & do a crap load more damage. WHY WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE? even just carry a bar mace in your back pocket and put away your HUGE LOLSWORD and pull out your BARMACE to destroy shielders, tin cans, & everyone.
Swords I'm comparing to are the bastard sword & the long sword.
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Almost as fast as swords? They ARE as fast as the greatswords.
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Almost as fast as swords? They ARE as fast as the greatswords.
I was speaking of swords of similar length to the bar mace/long iron mace, but yes they are.
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Basically The games melee mechanics work very much in a turn base way:
No. You need to visualise each player has their own turn time: Char build + weapon speed = how often he can attack.
Many times I have beaten slower opponents by simply trading blows, block to block, my "turn time" being slightly faster, and over the course of 3 or 4 attacks, my slight speed advantage has got me enough time so I am so far ahead in my turn, I can attack, hit his block, then attack again before oponent can counterattack. With crush weapons the only way to defend yourself is constant attack, but since they are so limited I see this as another whine thread....
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"1h speed buff they spam like crazy"
see right here, now I see your problem, you haven't played the game long enough.
To beat SPAM, you have to BLOCK, the only way to die to SPAM is not to BLOCK or COUNTER ATTACK and to literally let yourself be swung at over and over and over until you're dead.
Of course in CRPG there are many other variables to take into account (level of your toon vs opponents) but thats the basics of it, if you are not going to block or try and attack back why would they stop cutting you up? It's not spam if you can block.
@Momo, buy a BIG AXE & learn to block. there is your counter.
the only problem with crushthrough is the damn Barmace and Long Iron Mace, they are almost as fast as swords, almost as long as swords, can knockdown, can crushthrough & do a crap load more damage. WHY WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE? even just carry a bar mace in your back pocket and put away your HUGE LOLSWORD and pull out your BARMACE to destroy shielders, tin cans, & everyone.
Swords I'm comparing to are the bastard sword & the long sword.
I played this enough so I now how it works and I can block that's not the problem. Im just pissed that I already release a fking swing and the 1hander releases his swing later but Im the one who takes a hit, and he spams me and I can't counter attack because of his STUN between the swings. And bar mace is slow and short, long iron mace is short, they don't have a lolstab and they are not HUGE. Crap load more damage? Don't make me laugh, have you ever seen the long iron mace? 33 blunt... it's not that big. I see your problem, wanna know what is that? Blunt dmg ignores more armor than cut that's why it hurts, and most of the people changed to blunt because 2h swords got nerfed like hell. Everything will be nerfed because someone always find something OP (weight nerf, archer nerf, now upkeep,2h nerf). And what a pity I already invested a lot of time into my heirloomed mace, and all of my work gonna be nothing because one idiot thinks that crushtrough is OP and remove crushtrough from maces -.-. Personally I never had problems with these crushtrough guys, they have disadvantages if you can't avoid them that's your problem. Shielders are already too strong, we need tincan plate crushtrough guys to counter them. And FOOTWORK is important too, not just BLOCKING. Look at a LULSWORD guy, he can have a lot of agi with enough PS while the crushtrough guy needs more str, so he is slower.
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Im just pissed that I already release a fking swing and the 1hander releases his swing later but Im the one who takes a hit, and he spams me and I can't counter attack because of his STUN between the swings.
That's funny, this happens far more from 2hers due to exceedingly superior animations in my experience. Drop the shield to counterattack and the 2her launches an attack halfway through my 1her's swing and connects first.
Shielders are already too strong,
lol
The ONLY shielders that are a scary threat are balb and manofwar. There's other good ones out there, but a mediocre 2her/polearm user is far more dangerous than a good shielder on average.
we need tincan plate crushtrough guys to counter them.
There's no reason we ever NEED tincan plate crutch-through guys. Ever.
And btw, I play a 2her/polearm user 90% of the time anymore as shielders are weak in comparison. Possibly the best sign that crush through is a stupid mechanic in general: You say it's anti-shield yet it crushes through both my manual blocks AND my chamber blocks. The sheer fact that it crushes through chamber blocks is the single most retarded part of crutch-through mechanics.
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The ONLY shielders that are a scary threat are balb and manofwar. There's other good ones out there, but a mediocre 2her/polearm user is far more dangerous than a good shielder on average.T
..What? How is someone who dies in 1-2 hits more dangerous than a good shielder?
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..What? How is someone who dies in 1-2 hits more dangerous than a good shielder?
They're faster, have longer range and deal far more damage.
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And what a pity I already invested a lot of time into my heirloomed mace, and all of my work gonna be nothing because one idiot thinks that crushtrough is OP and remove crushtrough from maces -.-.
Fact : you spent time to heirloom a mace. You are yourself admitting they are OP.
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Fact : you spent time to heirloom a mace. You are yourself admitting they are OP.
Truth
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They're faster, have longer range and deal far more damage.
They're not faster. And they don't deal far more damage.
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They're not faster. And they don't deal far more damage.
Denial: Not a river in egypt.
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Denial: Not a river in egypt.
Indeed, right back at you.
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I don't want to insult anyone but..... The people out there using maul barmace ect ect. It is the weak point of an otherwise very balanced game. When ever you see a 2h blunter come at you it's always over the top strikes. Very one dimensional and boring. If you spent all this time looming a weapon you know is cheap I can't feel to bad for you. I like the idea of an OCCASIONAL blocked knockdown, maybe 20% of the time. I also don't think they are slow enough, think about lifting an enormous hammer over your head it would take some time.... period. Bring on the nerfs.
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Fact : you spent time to heirloom a mace. You are yourself admitting they are OP.
Not really, the simple mace is not OP, the heirloomed one is still not OP just good enough. And heirloomed weps should be strong, isn't that the reason chadz made retiring hard? If I work a lot for a wep of course it have to be strong. And if I want to heirloom a mace then I heirloom the fking mace -.-.
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They're not faster. And they don't deal far more damage.
Animations are superior, making them much faster than the speed number implies.
2hers deal more damage than 1hers.
Saying otherwise is denial, or trolling. Take your pick.
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I'd have to agree with xant (his original point at least), a good 1h shielder is more dangerous than a 2h. 2hs have more likely been softened up by ranged and missed blocks and then there's the shear effort involved in killing someone who has a much easier effort blocking. In battle, I'm more likely to die to a good 1h shielder, than a 2h. Not counting big mob battles, there the balance lies in favour of the 2h. And on the duel server I also prefer the 2h.
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Animations are superior, making them much faster than the speed number implies.
2hers deal more damage than 1hers.
Saying otherwise is denial, or trolling. Take your pick.
Animations are superior for the 1h, thus making them much faster than the speed number implies, indeed. Though they have advantage in both animation and speed number (except for 2h thrust)
2hers deal more damage yes, but not "by far."
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Animations are superior for the 1h
Ok, so you ARE trolling. Gotcha.
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Ok, so you ARE trolling. Gotcha.
Nah, just a superior player apparently. The 1h left swing has the best animation in the game, it also connects really fast because of the short range it has to travel.
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The ONLY shielders that are a scary threat are balb and manofwar. There's other good ones out there, but a mediocre 2her/polearm user is far more dangerous than a good shielder on average.There's no reason we ever NEED tincan plate crutch-through guys. Ever.
Come EU, almost everyone has Huscarls Shield and SideSword. Its fucking stupid: They are ridiculously fast, shield is nice and heavy to cancell crushthrough, sidesword is lighting, and the whole gettogether looks fucking ugly!
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Yeah there are lots of people without style. I have pointed it out few times but it annoys me little and
that urges me to point it out again :)
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Some east coast americans could get half decent pings on the eu servers and try them out.
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Side sword has NO place in this game anyway, it looks horrible with ANY of the other gear......
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Side sword has NO place in this game anyway, it looks horrible with ANY of the other gear......
I concur, the side sword looks awsome with the bucklers.
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Come EU, almost everyone has Huscarls Shield and SideSword. Its fucking stupid: They are ridiculously fast, shield is nice and heavy to cancell crushthrough, sidesword is lighting, and the whole gettogether looks fucking ugly!
That's why we need crushtrough!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I concur, the side sword looks awsome with the bucklers.
Concur means agree, and since side sword and buckler look absolute dogshit together, I don think we DO agree....
Buckler was used with short swords for many hundreds of years. Side sword looks like NONE of those swords. If we had Arquebuses, side swords would have their place I think.
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Concur means agree, and since side sword and buckler look absolute dogshit together, I don think we DO agree....
Buckler was used with short swords for many hundreds of years. Side sword looks like NONE of those swords. If we had Arquebuses, side swords would have their place I think.
Now you are just changing the subject to firearms.
To get ontopic again: you are simply forgetting one thing: cRPG isn't about realism!