On Crushtrhough, A long examination using Melee Dynamics

[Michael]

To crush through a 2h block with a slow and short mace with only 8 ps doesnt happen very often.

What I see quite often is people failing to block a left swing, getting knocked down and then finished while trying to get up again.

Spamming a axe right swing to destroy a decent shield with 1 hit, then left swing to destroy the guy in decent armor with one more hit is way more effective, not to forget the fabulous greatsword stab that can outreach lances.

It is funny that 2hnoobspammers complain about macers. The macers at least have to block once against every opponent, often many times, with a short and slow weapon.
The greatsword users just dance around, stab, and backpedal, and perhaps once a map use right mouse button.
 

[Mouse]

A lot of people don't realize that if their opponent misses a swing, their opponent may be able to swing a second time before they can safely counter-attack. I would purposefully whiff a swing in native to bait people into counter-attacking for just this reason with good success, but the numbers in cRPG are not quite so precise with customizable characters. You can't really bet on this working unless you've got a faster weapon and higher WPF.

[Stormcrow]

Yes wtf why should shielders have two counters. Everyone knows that is silly.

Shields already have a counter in axes and other weapons designed to destroy shields.  Why do they need a second, hard counter that renders them useless?

Are you kidding Me? Shields Blocking Throwing axes and all weapons = Counters, as if. Blocking everything at 180 degrees is a massive bonus, not a negative. Just because you can destroy a shield in five swings with an axe doesnt give the axe the advantage.

Players without shields just get hit with throwing axes and have to actually manually block the guy with an axe

Why do they need a second, hard counter that renders them useless?

Useless how? You can block every weapon and projectile in the game with a 180 degree forcefield and its "useless"
because 4 weapons with crushthrough have a chance to injure. Theres a reason they call it easymode.
Removing Crushthrough would just make sheilders better, which isnt what we need.

I agree that crushthrough needs balancing, but removing it just to satify some whiny noobs isnt the answer

[Kafein]

Are you kidding Me? Shields Blocking Throwing axes and all weapons = Counters, as if. Blocking everything at 180 degrees is a massive bonus, not a negative. Just because you can destroy a shield in five swings with an axe doesnt give the axe the advantage.

Players without shields just get hit with throwing axes and have to actually manually block the guy with an axe

Useless how? You can block every weapon and projectile in the game with a 180 degree forcefield and its "useless"
because 4 weapons with crushthrough have a chance to injure. Theres a reason they call it easymode.
Removing Crushthrough would just make sheilders better, which isnt what we need.

I agree that crushthrough needs balancing, but removing it just to satify some whiny noobs isnt the answer

Play 1h + shield at least once please, it could actually prevent you from saying such BS...

[Stormcrow]

I have played it Many times, I found it to be lame, uninteresting, unchallenging and generally to easy

[Rhaelys]

Crushthrough does not just affect shielders. It affects anybody who tries to block.

[Nemeth]

The 180 degree protection you're talking about works for board shields and maybe, MAYBE for huscarl. Other shields can easily be shot through from angles very close to actualy directly facing the shilder. Since the force field is gone, you are only relatively safe from projectiles and swing ifs your opponent is directly facing you.
If you played shielder many times, you would have known this, as I know it playing an xbowman that enjoys shooting turtles when they think they are safe from me behind their shield.

EDIT: To the OP, I think most people agree on that. Also, as was pointed out, trying to strafe from overhead is most of the times useless, as they will just track you and hit you anyway.

[Stormcrow]

Other shields can easily be shot through from angles very close to actualy directly facing the shilder. Since the force field is gone, you are only relatively safe from projectiles and swing ifs your opponent is directly facing you.

Obvious, but thanks anyway. Besides this is about crushthrough not your crossbowman charecter named nancy

[Haru_Takeda]

My vision of Bar Mace Users:

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This thread is kind of useless since mace crushthrough has already been confirmed to being removed in the next patch.
My personal opinion is that since it is officially being nerfed, use of the barmace with 6ps or more is equivalent to an exploit.

[Ganon]

My vision of Bar Mace Users:

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This thread is kind of useless since mace crushthrough has already been confirmed to being removed in the next patch.
My personal opinion is that since it is officially being nerfed, use of the barmace with 6ps or more is equivalent to an exploit.

I have indeed stopped using it and switched to the great maul vs turtles, and it is exactly as i describe in my posts.I don't make things up like some other guys just to have an advantage in the game, and i support the barmace nerf after countless posts of discussion in the balance discussion forum. Vs a great maul, you can spam, you can backpedal, it is a surprise weapon and after that i can only hit again if with footwork i can make the opponent miss or delay his swing, against good opponents it fails constantly (so good turtles will be OP next patch, and should be balanced later on).

I would also consider an exploit abusing throwing and powerthrow, but when i pointed it out i got votebanned by the throwers... was hilarious but i hate those guys even more now.

[La Makina]

To make it simpler: you cannot block crush-thru weapons so you can only rely on footsteps. However, stepping aside an overhead attack does not work because the attacker can still turn while the mass falls on: the attack will follow the dodge and hit you anyway.

Instead of the current crush-thru ability I would suggest:
- A stunning effect against 2H and polearms (and shields), exactly like the stun effect that 1hander suffers after blocking a 2h or a polearm (i.e. unable to counterattack for 2 seconds);
- Crush-through against 1hander (blocking a maul with one hand... sure! go buy a new wrist!);
- Ability to chamber block crush thru weapons.

[Torp]

To make it simpler: you cannot block crush-thru weapons so you can only rely on footsteps. However, stepping aside an overhead attack does not work because the attacker can still turn while the mass falls on: the attack will follow the dodge and hit you anyway.

Instead of the current crush-thru ability I would suggest:
- A stunning effect against 2H and polearms (and shields), exactly like the stun effect that 1hander suffers after blocking a 2h or a polearm (i.e. unable to counterattack for 2 seconds);
- Crush-through against 1hander (blocking a maul with one hand... sure! go buy a new wrist!);
- Ability to chamber block crush thru weapons.

+1 - and maybe for some 2H's too (weapons with weight under 2 or something)

[DarkFox]

- A stunning effect against 2H and polearms (and shields), exactly like the stun effect that 1hander suffers after blocking a 2h or a polearm (i.e. unable to counterattack for 2 seconds);
- Crush-through against 1hander (blocking a maul with one hand... sure! go buy a new wrist!);
- Ability to chamber block crush thru weapons.

1.There is already a small stun.
2.Its already stuns strongly side blocks and crushes up block.
3.Chambering is easy,especially maul.No one will use overhead then.
In a result mauls will become useless.Stop trying to change game mechanics.It was already balanced in native.Mauls are short,slow,heavy and unbalanced.And dont say that rhodoks in native had low skill,110 is enough to have  fast swings,and mallet with great maul mostly crushed through overhead.

[IG_Saint]

1.There is already a small stun.
2.Its already stuns strongly side blocks and crushes up block.
3.Chambering is easy,especially maul.No one will use overhead then.
In a result mauls will become useless.Stop trying to change game mechanics.It was already balanced.And dont say that rhodoks in native had low skill,110 is enough to have  fast swings,and mallet with great maul mostly crushed through overhead.

I disagree on 3. Chambering a maul is quite tricky because of the slow speed. I don't think I chambered you even once yesterday when you were using that mallet. I do think chambering should be changed to counter crush through

[Xant]

Yes, chambering a maul is a lot harder than chambering a fast sword.