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Strategus => Strategus Issues => Topic started by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 05:42:41 pm

Title: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 05:42:41 pm
Battle of Zagush,

we had in the end 1600 defender 1000 which is about the same ticket advantage as in the beginning(3600-3000).

After the battle the village but shows 500 population and about 2000 troops. There were no reinforcement armies near which went through to the village and nothing close to that left in the village.

I can't believe this is how it is thought to be if so please explain.

Please correct this bug.

If this is how it is ment to be then i strongly suggest that qmr is extended to rank holder of rank 9,10 so that if the leader of a party who didn't show can be replaced also in his ability to retreat from the battle.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Fips on December 09, 2011, 05:44:49 pm
Butthurt?

Edit: Butthurt, definitely.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Segd on December 09, 2011, 05:49:15 pm
Necromancy skill
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: witchhunter on December 09, 2011, 05:55:18 pm
you chose the time and the commander, deal with it.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Mike_of_Kingswell on December 09, 2011, 05:57:45 pm
Butthurt?

Edit: Butthurt, definitely.
This!
you chose the time and the commander, deal with it.
This aswell!


AND:
I saw like a LOT of your guys glitching and piking THROUGH THE WALL!
Quote
I can't believe this is how it is thought to be if so please explain.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 06:03:06 pm
dealing with it is what i do hear, who could have imagined i would have to deal with post like yours as well ^^

I saw like a LOT of your guys glitching and piking THROUGH THE WALL!
screenshots + ban request + suggestion to devs to fix those glitched places, come back when you did that
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Fips on December 09, 2011, 06:12:20 pm
Srsly...u guys were waiting like 60 minutes to actually charge us (If you did it from the beginning u would've won), you set the time of the battle, ur commander wasnt able to be there...so u screwed up, not the game or anything else. And yes, u should deal with that fact.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 06:15:06 pm
Srsly...u guys were waiting like 60 minutes to actually charge us (If you did it from the beginning u would've won), you set the time of the battle, ur commander wasnt able to be there...so u screwed up, not the game or anything else. And yes, u should deal with that fact.
timer and battle coordination is one thing,

that after a battle basicly the whole army deserts to the enemy is not only unrealistic but also a game breaker, if you can't see that i don't have anything to discuss with you or to deal with you.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Fips on December 09, 2011, 06:17:38 pm
timer and battle coordination is one thing,

that after a battle basicly the whole army deserts to the enemy is not only unrealistic but also a game breaker, if you can't see that i don't have anything to discuss with you or to deal with you.

Of course it is, but that's just the way strategus works now. And everyone knows, so u should be able to saw that coming, too.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Camaris on December 09, 2011, 06:19:37 pm
timer and battle coordination is one thing,

that after a battle basicly the whole army deserts to the enemy is not only unrealistic but also a game breaker, if you can't see that i don't have anything to discuss with you or to deal with you.

But kinngrimm... you should have known that we have lots of beer in zagush... now think about it... you are fighting against a village to get all those nice beer.
Suddenly your soldiers couldnt get that beer anymore tonight and guess what they decided? They decided to come to the zagush defending army drinking nice
german beer. Next time bring beer yourself.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Segd on December 09, 2011, 06:21:53 pm
Thats why we always have some vodka.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Keshian on December 09, 2011, 06:22:40 pm
Congratulations to HRE, won against horrible odds and horrible time slot imposition and won with style.  May you use this opportunity well. :)
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Harpag on December 09, 2011, 06:23:07 pm
+ this  http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,22005.0.html
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 06:29:07 pm
Congratulations to HRE, won against horrible odds and horrible time slot imposition and won with style.  May you use this opportunity well. :)
man Keshian, you couldn't resist could you ... they didn't win we didn't win. It was a patt by time

but i do agree to some extent to the beer, but we didn't tell our guys before or after the fight that you would have wagons full of bear barrels.
But in the evening when we reached out tents and setup fires to warm our selves we heared the laughter and the drunken songs from the village and it made us sad, because that would have been us.


I don't quite understand the logic why would
a) the attacker loose more then the defence in a patt situation, centuries agos they would have gone to their tents had a laugh and a beer and continued the bloody thing the next day
b) giving it to the defender are you fucking kidding me, when people fight each other in war they are killing each other for many reasons they don't become buddies from one instant to the other

deserting to the void to a small extent or large extent if the fight wouldn't be winable, but hey we kept ticketadvantage till the end.
So conclusion both sides made a good fight, why in the name of the mighty donkey would anyone gain then 95% of what ever is left on one of the opposing sites?
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Camaris on December 09, 2011, 06:33:35 pm
man Keshian, you couldn't resist could you ... they didn't win we didn't win. It was a patt by time

but i do agree to some extent to the beer, but we didn't tell our guys before or after the fight that you would have wagons full of bear barrels.
But in the evening when we reached out tents and setup fires to warm our selves we heared the laughter and the drunken songs from the village and it made us sad, because that would have been us.


I don't quite understand the logic why would
a) the attacker loose more then the defence in a patt situation, centuries agos they would have gone to their tents had a laugh and a beer and continued the bloody thing the next day
b) giving it to the defender are you fucking kidding me, when people fight each other in war they are killing each other for many reasons they don't become buddies from one instant to the other

deserting to the void to a small extent or large extent if the fight wouldn't be winable, but hey we kept ticketadvantage till the end.
So conclusion both sides made a good fight, why in the name of the mighty equus africanus asinus would anyone gain then 95% of what ever is left on one of the opposing sites?

Just look at the bright side of this happening. You get another big battle once you recovered.
=> again a big fight => again a funny time.

And just kidding: Probably some of your men still thought we are allies :p
Dont blame them for being confused.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Keshian on December 09, 2011, 06:39:25 pm
They won the moral victory :)!! jk

Attackers have limited time frames (call it desertion, morale loss from long sieges, disease, whatever) to wina victory, otherwise they lose.  chadz implemented it to force attackers to actually attack rather than that favorite EU tactic - archer camp as attackers (too many eu players are archers i think as a percentage of the playerbase is part of the problem (NA's problem is too high ratio of strength build 2h/polearm)).  So when an attacker in a massive abttle archer camps for the first hour, he ends up running out of time and is forced to retreat/loses and defender keeps their fief.  So yes, great victory and great discipline by defenders not becoming attackers out of boredom with attackers pretending to be defenders.


P.S. I do think the max desertion percentage should be 50% of remaining troops or even 25%.  Posted this after the same thing happened to hospitallers when they attacked fallen in tulbuk.  chadz said percenatge si highets at beginning of abttle and lowest at end and he obviously got his mathematics wrong again.  Either way the maximum allowable amount is too high and the minimum is too low (1%).  Should be a range of 10-30% might be ideal.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: chadz on December 09, 2011, 06:45:52 pm
I don't know the details, but keshs reasoning is correct. The question is: why did the attackers take so long?

Also, attackers running out of time is a defeat, not a draw. The objective of the defender is to defend until time runs out or defenders retreat or no attacker is left.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Tot. on December 09, 2011, 06:46:07 pm
Well, gj HRE, achieving a draw with those odds isn't bad.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Xant on December 09, 2011, 07:01:15 pm
keshs reasoning is correct.

I didn't read Kesh's post yet, I just saw this and...  :shock:

Well, gj HRE, achieving a draw with those odds isn't bad.

Wasn't a draw. As chadz said, it was a victory. Defenders successfully defended = win.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Lepintoi on December 09, 2011, 07:05:25 pm
So who is next to bang on the doors of Zagush Beer capital of Calradia? Raven? Bashibazouk? Hospitallers? Or maybe one nice big army combined ;) ?
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Skysong on December 09, 2011, 07:08:14 pm
It's funny how ppl talk about HRE just because atackers sucked at timing.

Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 07:08:38 pm
I don't know the details, but keshs reasoning is correct. The question is: why did the attackers take so long?

Also, attackers running out of time is a defeat, not a draw. The objective of the defender is to defend until time runs out or defenders retreat or no attacker is left.
the attackers didn't take "THAT" long we formed up a first time at the mill , and were instantly skirmishing on left and right flanks, but kept some troopers behind so the healing tent could be built.  After the healing tent was built 10min, we were constantly charging. We kept an even eye with the defenders on K/d ratio. So explain me how that would have been stalling, we didn't have that many archers nore shielders mostly 2h/pole arm dudes.

Even if you argue that it would be a loss because time ran out. Giving 95% of the remains to the enemy ... including tickets, come on really?

Then again if you want to have it that way, to prevent the possible archer stallement battles, then the retreat option needs to be extended, not only because of this here, but just to be able to retreat if reallife comes into the way of the party leader so that others in the responsible positions leading actualy the battle are able to make that retreat command.

Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Valdian on December 09, 2011, 07:15:08 pm
I dont know a thing about the timing of the battle and what happened but For a change I agree with Kesh the defender should only gain half to 25% of the troops after  the time is up same thing with gear(less gear) but  the ammount it gained it was almost like the battle didnt happen at all
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 07:16:07 pm
It's funny how people talk about HRE just because attackers sucked at timing.
I don't argue about timing, it wasn't my suggestion to just go ahead and attack, but to wait till prime time.
How or what did i talk about HRE, besides mentioning that both attackers as defenders were on eye level making a good job and having close to the same overall K/D ratio. If you want another flame war please go to another thread.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Camaris on December 09, 2011, 07:20:25 pm
I dont know a thing about the timing of the battle and what happened but For a change I agree with Kesh the defender should only gain half to 25% of the troops after  the time is up same thing with gear(less gear) but  the ammount it gained it was almost like the battle didnt happen at all

Actually thats wrong. It was almost like the battle didnt happened to us ;)
Wouldnt extend that on your side. But like i said im glad i can probably take part in our real last stand then.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 07:22:08 pm
After the time loss the troops shouldent of gone to the enimy maybe half should but not all i dont know anything about the time though i was asleep, But it should be set so the defender only gains half the troops in a case like that
there is no logical reason why any tickets at all would go to the defender, equipment left on teh ground from fleeing forces perhaps ^^, but tickets? This still is supposed to be RPG style orientated on reallife to some extent and making it enjoyable. With giving away these huge numbers(dumdidum yesterday i was an attacker trooper today i'll be defender trooper didldi and tommorow i beat the shit out of those i fought for before, this wasn't a planed ruse like mine where allies just became enemies ;) and btw great vid Lepintoi _HRE i got it added into my profile   :mrgreen:)
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 07:24:25 pm
Actually thats wrong. It was almost like the battle didnt happened to us ;)
Wouldnt extend that on your side. But like i said im glad i can probably take part in our real last stand then.
i don't mind having a second fight, as it would be if the troop count and equipment would just stay the same after time would run out, but this is an advantage you get here which is not really earned but given by Fortuna, i guess you are aware of that.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Lepintoi on December 09, 2011, 07:27:41 pm
We are aware of that, too bad we didn't take this cock-up into account...
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Blondin on December 09, 2011, 07:31:29 pm
You could find info in this post :

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,21571.0.html

That should explain a lot of things, at least about the general mechanics (because there is no answer about troops)
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Tristan on December 09, 2011, 07:37:22 pm
In honesty there are several issues here at stake. Both sides with good reasons. Let it not completely spoil the fun we're supposed to have at this game?

Yes, attackers should be encouraged to attack, yes time-out should be loss

but

Honestly, I find it understandable to be a bit buthurt if the rule are not clear on the subject AND even more importantly that the retreat function supposed to counter such functions were not properly able to be used.

Imo, this is a lesson learned a wee bit too hard. On the other hand, Fallen had another one coming etc. etc.

What am I try to say?

Kumbayah
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Lepintoi on December 09, 2011, 08:00:21 pm
An army without a commander would be in dissaray irl too so maybe it is a just result :p
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Skysong on December 09, 2011, 08:14:11 pm
I don't argue about timing, it wasn't my suggestion to just go ahead and attack, but to wait till prime time.
How or what did i talk about HRE, besides mentioning that both attackers as defenders were on eye level making a good job and having close to the same overall K/D ratio. If you want another flame war please go to another thread.

Sory i'm not into flame war but it seems you are.
So next time use your brain when preparing an atack and don't qq on forums after you got pwned by your own fault.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Gurnisson on December 09, 2011, 08:24:56 pm
the attackers didn't take "THAT" long we formed up a first time at the mill , and were instantly skirmishing on left and right flanks, but kept some troopers behind so the healing tent could be built.  After the healing tent was built 10min, we were constantly charging. We kept an even eye with the defenders on K/d ratio. So explain me how that would have been stalling, we didn't have that many archers nore shielders mostly 2h/pole arm dudes.

You took a long time. I was considering taking a nap during the battle. The last 25 minutes or so was what I call charging.

Even if you argue that it would be a loss because time ran out. Giving 95% of the remains to the enemy ... including tickets, come on really?

Defenders getting your remaining gear was fair, however them getting most of your remaining troops seems very silly. Preferably, they should only get the gear.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Vibe on December 09, 2011, 08:37:05 pm
BATTOHURTO

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Everkistus on December 09, 2011, 08:38:21 pm
BATTOHURTO
(click to show/hide)
Fuckin' lol.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Lennu on December 09, 2011, 08:45:16 pm
Well, the time ran out just as expected. You spent first 30min pouring arrows at our shieldwall, while making some puhsing attempts. Then you tryed to pull us from the village... and Finally during the last 25min you actually tryed to invade the village like you should have done from the beginning with. I noticed that during 10 minutes the defenders lost almost 500 tickets. Meatgrinder like that would have depleted the defenders ticketcount in 1 hour, and you had 2 hours. Also, taking a village isn't supposed to be easy, what did you expect?

You also had superior gear (kuyaks an' stuff + mw weapons vs. defenders in leather armors looting the mw weapons) and still the kill death rates for teams were about 1:1.
 :arrow: I think that the defenders earned their victory and the spoils of war.

The troops getting moved to the winning team has been there since the beginning of strat 3. Why didn't you start campaining against it from the very beginning instead of just now when it turned against you. If you need any logical explanation for it:
Your troops decided to join the winning side because they are quite like everyone in the carebear alliance, they want to make sure they win. Even if it means going against all ideas of honor and loyality.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Skysong on December 09, 2011, 08:56:40 pm
The troops getting moved to the winning team has been there since the beginning of strat 3. Why didn't you start campaining against it from the very beginning instead of just now when it turned against you.

Because he was sure his army would win hack and slash style with superior numbers. But since he is butthurt now he needs a reason to qq about.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: Slamz on December 09, 2011, 09:13:23 pm
The big clans have largely benefited from army transfers of this nature.  I know a number of villages have been taken over without the defenders all being killed and I think they got to keep those troops.

So this is the same thing, just the other way around.

Really, troops are not loyal subjects -- they are hired mercenaries and rabble.  They don't have much trouble switching sides if their side loses.
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: RandomDude on December 09, 2011, 09:20:39 pm
i have to say that if you had attacked from the start instead of doing whatever you were doing you would of killed all the tickets in time

the timer is there to make attackers attack - not so the attackers can do feint after feint to draw the defenders out without actually doing any fighting

the last 30 mins was a lot more entertaining and the ticket difference was still the same as the first 30 mins in so you should of just done that from the start imo

the high % of lost items and men has been around for some time now also so its a bit late to say "I DINT KNOW GOV, HONEST!"
Title: Re: Time Ran out, Commander not there for qmr, Everything left transfered to defence
Post by: kinngrimm on December 09, 2011, 09:57:41 pm
You took a long time. I was considering taking a nap during the battle. The last 25 minutes or so was what I call charging.
So basicly what you want is Chargus not Strategus? Because in the last 25 minutes there weren't any tactics/strategies included, and they stopped earlier when we got aware of the time pressure.

Defenders getting your remaining gear was fair, however them getting most of your remaining troops seems very silly. Preferably, they should only get the gear.
So this implemented rule is mostly against, stallments of archery and camping festivals, why don't you then get the balancing of archery/xbow fixed that it is a support class and people who love it because it is mid century battle style keep going with it and people who are out for FPS can go somewhere else? I was in the impression that you chadz didn't want to have it as a ranged festival, but the servers are just bursting by pure or hybrid ranged. So make it a support class again and not a class with a "realistical(?)" fighting chance. Then it would be used also in strat as support not as main strategy and this stupid rule can go down the sewer.

Maybe i am butthurt, not like weeks of preparation, crafting, trading, diplomatic trickery and other shit was not only more or less for nothing but indeed the opposition was strengthened.

My summery on this:
- not user friendly - not well documented - complettly out of proportion in terms of sanctions and benefits - buthurt - whatever