my palfrey, which it 10000 or so, can withstand...
1 arrow and bolt to face, or one good 2h swing or polearm stab to face.
only a small amount of players are 45k+...
I have 4 horses. I don't think they need a buff. On average I get 2 or 3 kills from horseback per round + injuring and distracting many people. Courser and below is sort of maintainable with shitty melee gear (f.e. 1.5k for simple sword), it's just for style and having a backup when dismounted, but you can still make kills with it.
Imo some internal balance is required, courser vs destrier f.e. but no global buff.
here are the advantages of each suggestion.I think this is a bad thing. Too many cav, like archers, like throwers, makes the game crappy. Imo, but probably the majority too. A few decent ones per team makes the game fun, but not very many or it just gets lame. Most everyone can afford a horse now as is, as long as they don't plan to ride around on the M&B version of a panzer tank IE: armored horses.
a.) more people can afford horses, bringing back the horse and rider, and restoring balance to the game. it make people work harder as a team, and helps get rid of throwers, or bring them to the forefront to face the horseman along with the polearm.
b.) brings prices to a reasonable amount, as well as making horses more sturdy, thus making them a viable weapon of war, but by restricting access of the really good horses to the rider eliteMaking horses more sturdy simply rewards bad cav. Oh, I can be stupid cause my horse is really buff. This is a disadvantage to your suggestion imo. The rider elite should consist of good players, not crutching scrubtards (Finished for example) who ride around on tanks and can afford their stupidity due to strong horses.
c.) this makes money the biggest initial factor in acquiring a horse but also makes it an investment for the buyer that can pay off well if used right.Current upkeep system is fair. Unless you want to make everything unbreakable (my x-bows, weapons, and armor) in order to keep things fair then no. This is basically going back to the previous system before upkeep and unfairly punishes all NON-cav players. In essence it becomes a free uber-advantage so that everyone would be stupid for not riding. Initial cost means nothing as that's just a matter of time, which is endless. Again, the buff is not needed to horse stats either.
neither of you own anything warhorse and above. if thats by choice, more power to you. but the whole purpose of my suggestions is to at least make middle high warhorses affordable; that and they take at least 5 riding to ride.
Courser 19,818 gold
Lance 3,374 gold
Horseman's Kite Shield 1,978 gold
Cavalry Robe 3,582 gold
In total: ~29 000 gold. Yep, gear for the horseman is so f*** expensive. Average equipment for 2hander costs more or less the same. And take a look at Ujin, Simon Templar, TomMyyY, they don't need tanks and black armour to have KD ratio ~10:1.
neither of you own anything warhorse and above. if thats by choice, more power to you. but the whole purpose of my suggestions is to at least make middle high warhorses affordable; that and they take at least 5 riding to ride.
I will back my first suggestion, A, to reduce the price of horses. please note, however, these are merely suggestions and are no way set in stone...
Option D is good if you have an idea to return horses to the battlefield again.
i believe there should at least be 10 horsemen for every 50, and 15 for every 100, on average. by reducing the price of the warhorse to an affordable 20438 (45% reduction), this would make higher tier horses easier to obtain, but still not easy fiscally. the warhorse is still the lowest armored horse in the selection, and most people are not willing to pay 20k and have 5 riding for a horse unless they ARE SOMEWHAT CALVARY CENTERED, which is what i think would work; appealing to the Knights and Calvaliers to charge again.
oh oh and a pike should be a dedicated anti-horse weapon, therefore its melee effectiveness should be decreased
there i said it
imo
light horses are good as they are now, heavy horses on the other hand could use a buff, as i dont think a player riding one will have better K:D than a player on light horse
and i would also love if player could only put skillpoints into riding or athletics not both, it would leave cav for dedicated cav players ;]
oh oh and a pike should be a dedicated anti-horse weapon, therefore its melee effectiveness should be decreased
there i said it
Cavalry is already the most powerful thing in M&B.
wtf, don't nerf pike's melee effectiveness. Pike is one of the greatest support/team play weapons, a pike user is easily killed once he's closed in on & alone, but with team mates he can keep the opponents back for fear of them being poked or prodded while trying to defend against the piker's allies.
What purpose would nerfing the pike serve, it's already one of the easiest weapons to counter with basically any class except Lancer Cav.
No bloody way. I thought everyone's agreed that forced classes are not what we want in cRPG, hybrids are fine.
no buff,simple as that, im a horsemen and i find no problem with it, at all.(click to show/hide)
imo
light horses are good as they are now, heavy horses on the other hand could use a buff, as i dont think a player riding one will have better K:D than a player on light horse
calm down no one is nerfing it ;p its just my opionion about it, and as you said yes its one of the greatest support weapons that only cost 1500, also it works oddly in melee (hitting trought allies), and in 1on1 it depends on player skills if you can easily kill pike user or notAye, i respect other person's opinions, but you have a very scary one . :D
yeah hybrids are ok, but i would love distinction between foot and mounted. i get your point it would ruin a lot of builds and bring less fun for those players but its my opinion on that matter and i know its not a popular view ;]
anyways im fine with things as they are now, just saying my biased cav player opinion
Horses don't need a buff. Throwing nerf is what we need.Totally agree with u
Cavalry is already the most powerful thing in M&B.
fuck K:D, i'm absolutely sure my team benefits more when i ride around on charger than on destrier. aye i might not get 2 more kills i'd get on faster horse but i can survive on a charger a very long time sucking all the ranged shit enemy throws at me instead on footmen. their archers focus me and are not aware if they're shoot at by archers of my team. no to mention i'm often being hunted down by wolfpack of light horses that always prefer rather to hunt chargers down than to hit my teamates. aye and i can kill any archer from a charger without taking any serious damage (unless he puls out some melee weapon when i'm about to ride him down).
No. Its just you footmen (most of you) that are totally incompetent. You personally need to learn awareness, then all you have to do is turn around and 1 stab the horse, then 1 slash the rider before he can get up.
Horses don't need a buff. Throwing nerf is what we need.
and once you are dismounted you are worthless as a peasant
oh oh and a pike should be a dedicated anti-horse weapon, therefore its melee effectiveness should be decreased
there i said it
calvary is not fine if all the good (and i use that lightly) warhorses are absolutely outrageously priced to buy and maintain so that 27% (see first thread) of people can use them; if even that since most of the higher paygrades hardly ever use calvary.
i mean, don't get me wrong here; warhorses should not be cheap, and buying one should never be a half-hearted investment,
but as everything stands, the vast majority cannot buy "good" horses. i mean, all i really want is a 20000 dollar warhorse; thats more reasonable than this isnt it?
Screw you. First of all pike is the oldest melee weapon in the freaking world. It's not at all usefull in melee in game. There is only one good pikeman melee player (not me) that playes in EU. It's already the worst melee weapon there is. Go to hell :twisted:
Sounds like you have a character build issue tbh.Yep. Oberyn for example does just fine on foot.
Cav are no less capable on foot as they are on a horse.
Lol. I dehorse cavalry all the time, but only noobs and those who think I don't know they're coming. My awareness is just fine.
You fail at cavalry if you let your horse be stabbed with your long reach.
Cav player's input: Sarranids, Coursers, Destriers need to be cheaper still. Unarmored horses were never the problem, so why penalize us so badly?
They always were serious problem, they are great choices for competent cavalry players as they offer great speed and manouver that allow you to kill all players except those with pikes.They weren't a problem balance-wise.
hmm charge damage for heavy horses might be the only buff i could imagine...This, there is not much reason to hit anyone anymore. The damage you deal is minimal, just make sure that these elephant classes don't arise again.
horse prices are reduced by 25%, given +30 health and +15 armor, +2 riding requirement
To OP: Cavalry just received a huge buff and it's still not good enough?
To Michael: Yeah all those incompetent footmen who cant keep 360-degree view of the field. Especially when engaging in other activities. I follow cav continously and it's still fucking impossible. You have to be carfefull of enemies on foot, archers etc. and know where your own cav is. On top of that tracking enemy cav is IMPOSSIBLE. :evil:
So true. Only noobs have problem on their horses, if they do, they need learn to play.
Cav is most powerfull class in cRPG, if they need anything it's called nerf.
Nerf to maneuver, nerf to speed, nerf to lances (way less damage, or overall soak and reduction need adjustment, or character development - like limiting people to 25. lvl). There is anyway far too much cavalry roaming around.
Most important: IF YOU FAIL AT CAV CHANGE CLASS.
Yep. Oberyn for example does just fine on foot.
OH MY GOD, are you really that stupid?
Its not about a single person that does good or bad on horse or on foot, its about balance.
A horseman needs to invest skillpoints in riding, maybe shield, too.
A 2h noob like you doesnt need these skills, do you?
So obviously you have more agi, more athletics, more power strike, more wpf.
Is that so hard to understand? Its not that complicated. I mean, that Gorath who beats women doesnt understand that, doesnt surprise me much, he is a poor plain stupid brut. So are you his level? For real? Congrats!
Lol. I dehorse cavalry all the time,
but only noobs
and those who think I don't know they're coming. My awareness is just fine.
You fail at cavalry if you let your horse be stabbed with your long reach.
It shouldnt need skill
Courser 19,818 gold
Lance 3,374 gold
Horseman's Kite Shield 1,978 gold
Cavalry Robe 3,582 gold
In total: ~29 000 gold. Yep, gear for the horseman is so f*** expensive. Average equipment for 2hander costs more or less the same. And take a look at Ujin, Simon Templar, TomMyyY, they don't need tanks and black armour to have KD ratio ~10:1.
than a nobleman?.
than a nobleman?Still making those silly claims of nobility? None shall ever support, them, you filthy peasant. Now go back to tending to those swine!
being able to frontally charge
You know, i wonder how many archers, throwers, and polearm people voted on this thread that horses dont need a buff. it really pisses me off since the patch that horses suck ass; people like that just rub salt in the wound... they fight ranged because they cant fight hand to hand. oh, and God forbid if calvary is the only units that can kill them while they run away for a better shot.
You know, i wonder how many archers, throwers, and polearm people voted on this thread that horses dont need a buff. it really pisses me off since the patch that horses suck ass; people like that just rub salt in the wound... they fight ranged because they cant fight hand to hand. oh, and God forbid if calvary is the only units that can kill them while they run away for a better shot.
We need to see just a little more cav, somehow, or some kind of buff to make them more viable.
My retort is that people fight hand-to-hand because they don't know how to fight range (I have seen the vast majority of archers shoot and it disgusts me).
Regardless, in all seriousness, I am an archer and I voted Yes, as Cavalry are a good counter to archers. As it is, Cavalry costs too much upkeep in my opinion. I have memories of 10 cav on one 90 person map, but I have much more memories of there just being two or three (Too few) in that size of a fight.
We need to see just a little more cav, somehow, or some kind of buff to make them more viable.
Would you prefer the pre-patch 10+ Catas and the sprinkling of Plated Chargers on each map, instead? You'd think people would be happy at how painful it is to field any unarmored cav above Rounceys, nowadays. :)
Get different maps.
On EU often there are 10 to 20 cav on 100 person server.
Cavalry doesn't need any "help."
Cavalry needs a nerf. Every time a good cav plays, he tops the scoreboard without competition. The reasons are simple:
- couching is unblockable and oneshots even plated characters, with long range, this is throwing imbalance + barmace imbalance all in one
- they're fast, so they can chose the target and the direction and if they're smart it's not easy to hear and/or see them coming in time
- should they notice you see them and they don't want to take any risks, they'll switch target
- versatility, you can use a 1h+shield on horse, a polearm, or some ranged weapon
- horse bump, so you hit even if you miss or can hit through blocks without couching
Cavalry needs a nerf. Every time a good cav plays, he tops the scoreboard without competition. The reasons are simple:
- couching is unblockable and oneshots even plated characters, with long range, this is throwing imbalance + barmace imbalance all in one
- they're fast, so they can chose the target and the direction and if they're smart it's not easy to hear and/or see them coming in time
- should they notice you see them and they don't want to take any risks, they'll switch target
- versatility, you can use a 1h+shield on horse, a polearm, or some ranged weapon
- horse bump, so you hit even if you miss or can hit through blocks without couching
What i would suggest to do is:
- remove couched damage from long weapons
- reduce horse speed and turn rate
- increase skill requirements and point requirements for riding! every cav is almost as good as a dedicated infantry character which is just wrong
- if possible, increase speed loss when horse bumping based on target weight, if i'm a tincan with a hammer a sword and a shield i weigh a ton and the stupid horse needs to slow down alot more
- if someone is blocking with a shield then he horse gets slowed down more on impact based on the shield weight
How would you even think to ask a buff when cav is so OP it's not even funny. It's a little harder to use so it appears to be ok with average player skill, but good players absolutely dominate the game with it.
Courser 19,818 gold
Lance 3,374 gold
Horseman's Kite Shield 1,978 gold
Cavalry Robe 3,582 gold
In total: ~29 000 gold. Yep, gear for the horseman is so f*** expensive. Average equipment for 2hander costs more or less the same. And take a look at Ujin, Simon Templar, TomMyyY, they don't need tanks and black armour to have KD ratio ~10:1.
Last round, I was using my warhorse for one round, it got onehitted by a throwing axe and died.
Think about it.
Last round, I was using my warhorse for one round, it got onehitted by a throwing axe and died.
Think about it.
A Warhorse.
Repair costs: 2000 gold.
Bad luck.A headshot from pure thrower i guess.
And still: the times of plated charger+full plate is over.
Think about it.
That's your own problem for rushing throwers head on, you got killed by the speed bonus and he most likely hit your horse right in the face, your horse deserved to die.
Lower the maneuver and reduce the acceleration but increase the top speed. Some mods did this and it really makes sense. Yesterday, I tried to ambush a cav: when I jumped out of my hideout, the rider could brake, make a u turn and escape at full throttle (in a jet fighter this would be a 8G maneuver and the breakfast on the windscreen). Currently cav can turn and evade attacks like TIE fighters.
My impressions as HA on cav....
Why do cav need a buff?
I still see good cav players doing good effort for their team.Especially the ones using sarranid horse or destrier.( high riding skill)
When i see rouncy, palfrey or even courser i automatically assume that they are noobs.
But many cav are so dumb idiotic that i guess they need mameluke horse + plate armor in compensation.
I'm HA and about 80% of the cav i face are pure idiotic=trying to hunt me in open field without archer support.
The only cav i take serious are the ones using sarranid horse + high riding skill, as they actually have a chance in killing me, when i'm not directly near big fights.
On ground i can do well too if i have support,but i usually die in 1v1 situations because of the sluggish shield and only 130wpf in onehander (most people are ALOT faster than me).
I don't know you, but as 100% of other HA's you sure are focusing only on enemy horses. Melee cavs have absolutely no means of defense against that (the game is sick broken about that, how can you aim an shoot while another horse is bumping into yours...), and the only defendable reaction is fleeing to "ally archers", if they exist and care to help you, and if your horse survives the escape run. Chasing the HA usually isn't idiotic. As he flees, just go back, hope he's victimizing someone else, and enjoy a few seconds of safe time.
The easiest way I found to kill horses is to step in front of it and overhead it with a 1h sword. They don't expect it, and it onehits the horse.
Heavy cav does
Why do you think no one uses them?
Heavy cav does
Why do you think no one uses them?
Because they're worthless. I mean, the top I'd maybe consider is a destrier... but it doesn't last a lot more then a lighter horse really, and is a bit slow unless you heirloom it 2-3 times. Above that? Doesn't make a lot more sense these days.
Bear in mind that the speed and maneuver nerf percentually speaking hit the heavier horses more. Which I don't mind that much... but; the charge nerf also reduced a large part of their allure, and with the poliferation of throwing, their survivability isn't really any better, since the best defense against throwing and it's insane damage is to not get hit in the first place. So they don't really have a lot of reason for existing.
With the slow speed on heavy cav I don't think I even could one hit anybody.
if someone like Ragni would go naked with his coockies,he would get lot's of kills too.
Heavy cav is expensive sure but that's not the only reason people don't use them
"kills"... so that's what you rose boys call it. Ragni naked with his... coockies? Freudian slip? Mhm, mhm...
I now know why the clan's called "of Rose." It's an euphemism for "gay" if I'm getting this right. (Should've seen it coming though, we all should've)
Umad cause you weren't mentioned, bro? 8-)
Horses, like heavy armour, currently offer little reward for the levels of financial investment require to use them on a regular basis. They server a purpose of aesthetic styling more than any real practical application in cRPG.
In truth though, I am more scared of the ninja cav like thedynamicrapeawesome duo Rohyp/Ruff do,sustainablenaked and deadly.
I think he is saying that, ignoring the lightly armored ninja cav, the amount of damage a armored knight on a cata or higher will cause is going to be overcompensated for him wandering in peasant gear 80% of the time to gain back money.
In truth though, I am more scared of the ninja cav like the dynamic duo Rohyp/Ruff do, sustainable and deadly.
+1, I had to fix some stuff before I could +1 it, but there it is. :wink:
Please make cavalry...especially Horse Archers stronger! they have no other advantage than bow/arrow and that has been nerfed already. Also, they are one of the hardest builds.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WCavWZIUic&feature=player_profilepage#t=17s
I think the over dominance of throwing/crossbow weapons and 2 handers provides a bit of a problem for the low health horses (and most horses with good hp or armor are nearly impossible to pay for).
In the beginning it was mount and blade, now we have chuck and spam...
A basic rock paper siccsor system would be "inf beats horses" "Ranged beat inf" "Horses beat Ranged" ... but horses simply don't if they see you coming. My palfray (2x heirloomed) just dies to a single bow shot by a spected archer or a single siege crossbow bolt by some randrom mook with 0 wpf in crossbows.
here is what i suggest
a.) prices from palfrey to plated charger are reduced by 40%
b.) horse prices are reduced by 25%, given +30 health and +15 armor, +2 riding requirement
c.) make horses unbreakable, and give them +30 health and +15 armor.
d.) insert a better suggestion here!
Sometimes (especially on cav unfriendly map) i dismount and just use a siege crossbow with ~80 wpf... I can one shot 90% of cav horses/players as well.
Anything ranged can make the current papermaché horses look like a heap of dead paper in 3 shots maximum.
*out of context quote*
IRL
Knowing both sides of a balance discussion does not devalue it, quite the opposite.
I have hierloomed siege crossbow. Three times already actually. With steel bolts, I'd say 20%-30% of my kills are when I one shot people.YouI can one hit horse only if he's charging at you or point blank to the head. So I believe I'm entitled to call your post a lie.
I think the over dominance of throwing/crossbow weapons and 2 handers provides a bit of a problem for the low health horses (and most horses with good hp or armor are nearly impossible to pay for).
In the beginning it was mount and blade, now we have chuck and spam...
A basic rock paper siccsor system would be "inf beats horses" "Ranged beat inf" "Horses beat Ranged" ... but horses simply don't if they see you coming. My palfray (2x heirloomed) just dies to a single bow shot by a spected archer or a single siege crossbow bolt by some randrom mook with 0 wpf in crossbows.
Lol. .I'm sry your horses can't charge into a mob and live through it all. if we trot around the mob we are dead too. But, the best way to use cav is to either wait until the majority of enemy infantry is engaged or go to a corner of the map with the other cav to duel it out there.That means archers will get even more chance to shoot us down before we reach them, because we have no cover, there just is no map that preferrs cavalry anymore, ranged kills us at open "cavalry" maps, and ranged kills us in city maps.
Another thing, maps play a BIG influence on what class is good or not. I haven't played on the EU servers that much but from what I've seen it's a lot of hilly maps with a village. And with one team commanding the village, maps like that are pretty difficult for cav. Its the same for NA servers. Lots of city maps.Ever since the patch this mod has been more focused on better strategy and tactics and Less on stats in general. Now that may not be true for siege server since that mode caters to infantry in general. Maybe instead of asking for a cav buff ask chadz or another server owner to put more open maps in rotation.
Yes, cavalry has to hide behind buildings while the infantry kill the archers, so the cavalry can attack when the battle is over. And you ignored my other arguments.