cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: HarunYahya on December 02, 2011, 01:37:53 pm

Title: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: HarunYahya on December 02, 2011, 01:37:53 pm
Problem:
Excessive projectile spam that makes game unplayable.

Suggested Solution:
Why not making quivers 2 slots but increasing +arrow bonus per heirlooms ?
Let's say 25 bodkins total when it is masterwork ?

This will not affect dedicated archers so much but this will lower the number of "Hey i fail at blocking and with 30+ arrows i can get an easy and lucky kill why shouldn't i just make an alt/stf or main to just shoot arrows to my teammates/enemy i don't care i'll just rain down arrows for the lulz" guys ?

I don't want to play without bagge,jambi,zerobot1(New pain in the ass:P),nebun,hetman,radh,KMC,Pandor,Sojetsu,Tenne,OktarBabuna etc...
I like having those skilled archers on my or enemy team they colorize the battlefield but unskilled lucky assholes who just raindown arrow is fucking it up and they'll suffer with 15 arrows till they play and learn archery very well by retiring multiple times and get a good amount of ammo !

Giving lower ammo to unexperienced archers sounds logical and it'll make their shots worth they won't just spam shoot into crowd and TK/TH they'll pick their shots.This may cure 2 problems
1=Greedy archers shooting teammates to steal kills.
2=%50 of server shoots stuff.

Can be done to bolts also
DISCUSS !!!!
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Vibe on December 02, 2011, 01:43:02 pm
I kind of like the suggestion, reducing the total amount of projectiles could fix this problems and make archers actually think before shooting, not just spaming arrows.

This + remove the ladders ofcourse.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Kafein on December 02, 2011, 01:45:15 pm
2 slot quiver -> 15 bodkin arrows ? +2 per heirloom ?

As a plus, that could give some incentive to choose other arrows.


But remove ladders.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: HarunYahya on December 02, 2011, 01:48:36 pm
2 slot quiver -> 15 bodkin arrows ? +2 per heirloom ?

As a plus, that could give some incentive to choose other arrows.


But remove ladders.
I thought 25 bodkin arrows for +3 which is like :
+1 = +3 arrows
+2 = +3 arrows
+3 = +4 arrows

Numbers can change but making it closer to unloomed 2 bags of quiver amount would be fair imho.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Moncho on December 02, 2011, 01:50:01 pm
This would cause a huge unbalance between weapon looms and arrow looms, which would make it so much better to loom arrows, also wrt repair costs, it would need rebalancing, but i think it has potential
Also, people would maybe have a different build for their first gens, but still loom their arrows (maybe getting 1 PD at lvl 31) and then change to archer when they have their MW arrows.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: BlindGuy on December 02, 2011, 01:52:36 pm
This "solution" is so badly thought out it makes me laugh. All this will do is increase the number of archers who run from melee, since with 2 slots gone on a bow, and 2 slots gone on a quiver: NO decent melee weapon>more likely to run and shoot. When I was an archer, I used +3 longbow, +3 bodkins, and a short sword. With your suggestion I would be limited to 0 slot weapons, and I wouldnt bother to fight, since the result is not gonna be pretty.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: HarunYahya on December 02, 2011, 01:57:03 pm
This "solution" is so badly thought out it makes me laugh. All this will do is increase the number of archers who run from melee, since with 2 slots gone on a bow, and 2 slots gone on a quiver: NO decent melee weapon>more likely to run and shoot. When I was an archer, I used +3 longbow, +3 bodkins, and a short sword. With your suggestion I would be limited to 0 slot weapons, and I wouldnt bother to fight, since the result is not gonna be pretty.
Well you are the minority.
Most of the archers take
2 quivers + 1 slot bow + 1slot melee
or
2 quivers + 2 slot bow + 0 slot melee

an archer shouldn't be able to carry a decent melee weapon since infantry can't carry a decent ranged weapon.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Kafein on December 02, 2011, 01:59:47 pm
Well you are the minority.
Most of the archers take
2 quivers + 1 slot bow + 1slot melee
or
2 quivers + 2 slot bow + 0 slot melee

an archer shouldn't be able to carry a decent melee weapon since infantry can't carry a decent ranged weapon.

Actually, he got a point. One of the ways of making archery less rage inducing is nerfing the ranged part and buffing the melee abilities.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: HarunYahya on December 02, 2011, 02:03:20 pm
Also, people would maybe have a different build for their first gens, but still loom their arrows (maybe getting 1 PD at lvl 31) and then change to archer when they have their MW arrows.

I agree but archery and xbows are the only "classes" that has increasing damage potential by looming 2 items.
I mean if you use a 2h you can increase your damage by triple looming your weapon but for archery you get bonus damage by triple looming your weapon plus bonus damage by triple looming your arrows . This suggestion will only change the priority of looming order of dedicated archers.They'll just loom their arrows then bows nothing much maybe some tweaks to those stats needed to make it balanced.
Eventually that will help to decrease archer spam on servers without harming dedicated archers imo.
My quote to your quote's answer :P

and to this one here is my answer:
Giving a pd difficulty on arrows might solve that but im not sure if it is necessary.You can do that right now also yet im not sure if a guy who wants to play archer plays 3 gens as another class to just get more ammo lol.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: BlindGuy on December 02, 2011, 02:14:55 pm
Well you are the minority.
Most of the archers take
2 quivers + 1 slot bow + 1slot melee
or
2 quivers + 2 slot bow + 0 slot melee

an archer shouldn't be able to carry a decent melee weapon since infantry can't carry a decent ranged weapon.

I guess the shop section for crossbows doesnt work on your browser or something. Since crossbows can be used with 0 wpf, are accurate and powerful...I guess infantry CAN carry a decent ranged weapon.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Konrax on December 02, 2011, 02:18:03 pm
The rate of fire overall for the range game needs to be reduced I think.

Something cool you might be able to do with WSE is make it so that after a range character shoots their bow/xbow/throwing weapon they receive no athletics bonus for the first 3 seconds.

This would make range either:

A - Shoot
B - Run

Secondly I think that the strength requirement for xbows needs to be increased, OR the weight needs to be drastically increased since its really easy to build a pure xbowmen with 8 athletics ATM.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 02:23:00 pm
Yes.Make Arrow looms not increase damage but arrows and make all quivers 2slot

Awesome idea.You are a god.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: gazda on December 02, 2011, 02:31:17 pm
random idea,

what about if archers could shoot only if they are close to each other?
probably would be too drastic,
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: BlindGuy on December 02, 2011, 02:38:57 pm
random idea,

what about if archers could shoot only if they are close to each other?
probably would be too drastic,

So only archer on server cant shoot at all XD

Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: HarunYahya on December 02, 2011, 02:53:07 pm
I guess the shop section for crossbows doesnt work on your browser or something. Since crossbows can be used with 0 wpf, are accurate and powerful...I guess infantry CAN carry a decent ranged weapon.
If you tell me that light crossbow with 0 wpf is a decent weapon,i'll tell you hammer or pickaxe is a decent weapon.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: PanPan on December 02, 2011, 02:56:22 pm
imo 25 arrows isn't enough. Im not spamming with my arrows or something and at the end of the round i dont have any arrows.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: HarunYahya on December 02, 2011, 02:58:25 pm
imo 25 arrows isn't enough. Im not spamming with my arrows or something and at the end of the round i dont have any arrows.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: BlindGuy on December 02, 2011, 03:01:09 pm
If you tell me that light crossbow with 0 wpf is a decent weapon,i'll tell you hammer or pickaxe is a decent weapon.

They both suck, but handaxe is ntb for 0 slot:

BUT: Item "Crossbow" is relatively cheap, accurate, and an unarmoured archer is gonna HURT when he gets hit by it.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on December 02, 2011, 03:02:56 pm
This "solution" is so badly thought out it makes me laugh. All this will do is increase the number of archers who run from melee, since with 2 slots gone on a bow, and 2 slots gone on a quiver: NO decent melee weapon>more likely to run and shoot. When I was an archer, I used +3 longbow, +3 bodkins, and a short sword. With your suggestion I would be limited to 0 slot weapons, and I wouldnt bother to fight, since the result is not gonna be pretty.

IM A FUCKING DEDICATED ARBALESTER AND CARRYING 2 SACKS OF BOLTS + ARBALEST STILL ALLOWS ME TO CARRY A NOICE SPAMMING DAGGER WHICH HELPS ME TO GET TINCAN DOGTAGS. ONLY PUSSIES DON'T BOTHER TO FIGHT AND RUN AWAY FROM MELEE..
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 03:16:42 pm


an archer shouldn't be able to carry a decent melee weapon since infantry can't carry a decent ranged weapon.

Well you just negated any credibility you might have had.

Ever heard of the crossbow?

Using your own argument archers most definitely should be able to carry a decent melee weapon.

/thread
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 03:24:18 pm
Ylca you retard, if you compare it you obviously need to compare the count on Projectiles too, so that would be 2 stacks of Bolts for Crossbowman aswell.

meaning you have 0 slots left with an Arbaleste, too.

The best crossbow you can use with 1 slot is the normal crossbow which is a piece of shit for a dedicated xbowman.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 03:35:46 pm
Ylca you retard, if you compare it you obviously need to compare the count on Projectiles too, so that would be 2 stacks of Bolts for Crossbowman aswell.

meaning you have 0 slots left with an Arbaleste, too.

The best crossbow you can use with 1 slot is the normal crossbow which is a piece of shit for a dedicated xbowman.

Crossbowmen get to choose between a shield and an extra slot. Archers could not carry a shield if they wished so you're right archers should be rebalanced so they can be effective melee/ranged much like crossbow. You see how silly this is getting?
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 03:40:02 pm
No they dont.

You can have a shield and a Melee weapons with Crossbow(Although the crossbow is shit), yes, but you can have that as an archer, too.



Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 03:42:24 pm
No they dont.

You can have a shield and a Melee weapons with Crossbow(Although the crossbow is shit), yes, but you can have that as an archer, too.

An archer cannot be accurate with the amount of weight a shield adds. How much do you know about archery builds before we continue this conversation on archer balance? Because that's something most people learn within the first few generations.

The reason people choose xbow over bow is precisely because you can effectively use it with a shield or, say, medium to medium-heavy armor.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 03:46:10 pm
You can use a Bow Precisely with light to medium armor and even a shield, too.You need to have a 15/24 build at least for that, though(I played as an Archer at least on two alts till level 30 and farther).

Btw. thats what most dedicated Xbowmen have as build...


Archers are always having the advantage that they can shoot indefinitely faster than xbowmen, which needs to be balanced so you get harder wpf penaltys for weight than xbow users.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 03:51:04 pm
You can use a Bow Precisely with light to medium armor and even a shield, too.You need to have a 15/24 build at least for that, though(I played as an Archer at least on two alts till level 30 and farther).

Btw. thats what most dedicated Xbowmen have as build...


Archers are always having the advantage that they can shoot indefinitely faster than xbowmen, which needs to be balanced so you get harder wpf penaltys for weight than xbow users.

I'm sure the viability of shield archers is why you see them commonly. Bows are popular and so are shield-arche... oh wait.

Just because you *can* do something doesn't make it actually viable. Just because you can make a lol-13 shield build doesn't mean it's useful for more than lols in the same way an archer-shielder is not combat effective.

An xbowman with a shield is most certainly effective.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 03:52:48 pm
No it is not.I played an Xbowman with shield, back then when Xbows were even more powerful.

You are slow with a shield and you cant carry a heavy xbow or an arbalest, so you are stuck with the crappy normal crossbow or the light crossbow which arent good at all both for a dedicated xbowman.

Also you need to go hybrid because playing shield and 1h with pure xbow wpf sucks more than having only a pickaxe or something.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 03:55:05 pm
No it is not.I played an Xbowman with shield, back then when Xbows were even more powerful.

You are slow with a shield and you cant carry a heavy xbow or an arbalest, so you are stuck with the crappy normal crossbow or the light crossbow which arent good at all both for a dedicated xbowman.

Also you need to go hybrid because playing shield and 1h with pure xbow wpf sucks more than having only a pickaxe or something.

Normal xbows are more than effective, especially if they're loomed but decent even if they're not. Source: 4 generations as xbowman-xbow/shield hybrid.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 03:57:06 pm
Yeah...And did you play Archer for some generations too?They are more than effective, too, especially if they are loomed....
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 04:08:08 pm
Yeah...And did you play Archer for some generations too?They are more than effective, too, especially if they are loomed....

Yeah, i've played archer for quite a few generations.

I'm gen 10 and i've respec'ed quite a few times. The only class i haven't really played for a full gen is thrower, and i've had a few alts of those too- just not my style.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 04:12:50 pm
So what makes you think then a xbower with a normal xbow and a shield which is absolutely vulnerable while reloading with only mediocre damage is superior to a fast-ass shooting archer with Bodkins piercing your ass heavily?

Yeah hes superior, but only in melee, and even there he is slower than the archer fucking him up.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 04:18:22 pm
So what makes you think then a xbower with a normal xbow and a shield which is absolutely vulnerable while reloading with only mediocre damage is superior to a fast-ass shooting archer with Bodkins piercing your ass heavily?

Yeah hes superior, but only in melee, and even there he is slower than the archer fucking him up.

Range: Bow
Rate of Fire: Bow
Speed on Foot: Bow (most of the time)
Damage (per shot): Xbow (by a longshot)
Melee ability: Xbow by a mile (archers don't have spare points for real PS. No xbow build i've ever made had less than 6PS with plenty left over).
Armor Choice: Xbow
Upkeep: Xbow by a mile (i just respecced from archer to heavy cav and i'm actually paying significantly less than any of my archer gens).
Accuracy: Toss up. (Xbow can aim all day for that headshot, archers can notch another arrow quickly and refire. Averages out).
Shield usage: Xbow

They both have pros and cons. The issue was that the guy claimed that ranged shouldn't have a decent melee and i pointed out xbowmen (and i forgot throwers) get ranged and melee ability and shield usage should they choose. I'm not complaining its unbalanced, i'm saying that people take classes advantages in a bubble and forget the whole picture when trying to make comparisons.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 04:23:17 pm
Actually, Archers can be decent at melee too.Just take a 1slot bow.

I agree with him that ranged shouldnt be GOOD at melee, but I dont see any problem with that since neither xbow nor Archers are really good at melee unless they hybrid or have exorbitant skills.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 04:29:15 pm
Actually, Archers can be decent at melee too.Just take a 1slot bow.

I agree with him that ranged shouldnt be GOOD at melee, but I dont see any problem with that since neither xbow nor Archers are really good at melee unless they hybrid or have exorbitant skills.

Archers have less skillpoints available for PS unless they significantly sacrifice WM and accuracy. Archers cannot carry shield effectively. Archers cannot wear more than about 5 pounds of body armor (9.5 if you're  a masochist). In no way do archers and xbowmen have anywhere near similar melee capabilities, that's the point. An xbowman and a thrower are ranged with significant melee capability yet people are complaining about archers having a single 1 slot item with possibly 3 PS.

Also you need to make a distinction between player skill and build power. An archer can be good at melee and some are in fact superior. The archer build is not a good build for melee, however.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 02, 2011, 04:36:29 pm
Yeah, they dont have the same Melee qualities, but they dont have the same Ranged qualities either.Archers are 100% ranged while Xbowers are only 80% or something because of their long reloading time etc.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Kato on December 02, 2011, 05:03:28 pm
Archers have less skillpoints available for PS unless they significantly sacrifice WM and accuracy.

false

You can do a solid build with 7ps,7pd, 5if, 5wm,5athl and if you bring mace, you can be very capable in melee. You sacrifice little bit of accuracy, and athletics, but thats ok, because instead of running you can actually fight. Thats my build on archer alt, i am bad in archery, but at least i am not roofcamping running bundle of sticks.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 06:23:38 pm
false

You can do a solid build with 7ps,7pd, 5if, 5wm,5athl and if you bring mace, you can be very capable in melee. You sacrifice little bit of accuracy, and athletics, but thats ok, because instead of running you can actually fight. Thats my build on archer alt, i am bad in archery, but at least i am not roofcamping running bundle of sticks.

I am not meaning this to insult you, but this is the point i'm trying to make. Below 6WM you start to seriously sacrifice accuracy and with the fact that PD actually decreases your effective WPF (for whatever reason) 7PD 5WM is actually worse than 6/6. Yeah you can melee well, but you sacrifice being an archer to do so. Also, sacrificing mobility also is a significant disadvantage for archery, as is carrying a heavy mace. People make it work but it's far from optimal, and nowhere near standard. Stellar players make it work, however- so kudos to you for having the ability to do so.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Dezilagel on December 02, 2011, 06:58:15 pm
I am not meaning this to insult you, but this is the point i'm trying to make. Below 6WM you start to seriously sacrifice accuracy and with the fact that PD actually decreases your effective WPF (for whatever reason) 7PD 5WM is actually worse than 6/6. Yeah you can melee well, but you sacrifice being an archer to do so. Also, sacrificing mobility also is a significant disadvantage for archery, as is carrying a heavy mace. People make it work but it's far from optimal, and nowhere near standard. Stellar players make it work, however- so kudos to you for having the ability to do so.

Then just go full six...?

With 6 ps, 6 ath and a solid 1-slot melee weapon you'll hardly be *gimped* in melee, especially considering that just by being an archer you nullify your opponents ability to control the range since lest he wants you to pull your bow he has to constantly chase you.

Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 02, 2011, 07:04:53 pm
Then just go full six...?

With 6 ps, 6 ath and a solid 1-slot melee weapon you'll hardly be *gimped* in melee, especially considering that just by being an archer you nullify your opponents ability to control the range since lest he wants you to pull your bow he has to constantly chase you.

Still don't get armor and are slower than comparable 6Ath characters. Bow has a massive penalty to movespeed, 1hers weigh twice their weight in terms of speed, and 2 stacks of arrows is 7 pounds at minimum assuming you can afford bodkin, and much more if you can't. It's doable, but it's not optimal, and it certainly isn't a melee beast in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Konrax on December 02, 2011, 07:34:53 pm
I made a great suggestion on page 1, if you guys are done peen flexing and arguing over nonsense then please feel free to bring this thread back to a constructive manner.

ggkthx
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Dezilagel on December 02, 2011, 07:37:53 pm
Still don't get armor and are slower than comparable 6Ath characters.


Well, you're an archer. Can't expect to perform up to pure melee standards BUT 6ps/ath is still more than enough to kill people. Light armor compensates for the speed loss against most melee players. Also, who the fucks wears armor for anything other than ranged/th's? lol.

Bow has a massive penalty to movespeed,


Source? But yeah, I do believe that bows slow you down somewhat, but it can't be that bad since I get outrun by most archers anyways (7 ath).

1hers weigh twice their weight in terms of speed


False: EDIT: Also, long weapons carry a massive movespeed penalty (disadvantage for 2h, worst for polearms) when combined with high weight.

Listed one-handed weapon weight                      Effective weight for calculation
                 1                                                                         1.5
                1.5                                                                        2
                 2                                                                          3
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Konrax on December 02, 2011, 07:42:14 pm
You forgot the extra 6-8 lbs for a shield in extra weight too.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on December 03, 2011, 06:24:14 am
Actually, he got a point. One of the ways of making archery less rage inducing is nerfing the ranged part and buffing the melee abilities.

I sure used to melee more and run less when I could carry a good longsword instead of a weak hatchet.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: HarunYahya on December 03, 2011, 07:15:26 am
I think devs will consider giving some love to melee survivability of archers but tbh i don't think that could be the solution cuz i experienced limitless times that when it comes to archer vs melee at the end of the map archer just kites the infantry and shoots him to death.
You can always loot a fucking awesome +3 loomed weapon on the ground if you want to melee but i've never seen an archer bothers to do that while he can win easily by run-shoot-run-shoot combo.

there are 3 types of archers :
1)Longbow/Rusbow archer who excels at killing infantry with their hard hitting but slow bows. They carry a shitty 0 slot backup weapon to be able to block if they get cought.(Those guys run like hell if it comes to melee)
2)Hornbow archers who excels at killing enemy archers with their fast bows and those kind can go melee also since they don't give extra 3 points in STR and 1 skill point to PD,they give those points to PS and grab a mace or langesmesser . (Those may spam the shit out of you on melee but most of the time they just runaway if they can.)
3)Exceptions like Tenne longbow+langesmesser + only 1 quiver gameplay type is close to hornbow archers type but their priority target to shoot is infantry.

The common speciality of all those types is this:
Running away from melee is their priority move , if it's their last chance some may melee but most of them keep running.

Result:
Why would a guy bothers to fight melee with confusing mechanics like attack/block/glance/speed bonus etc while he can deal 35-45 damage from hundreds of meters ?
With my archer alt , i wouldn't do that even if the mod allows me to carry a fucking flamberge.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Tzar on December 03, 2011, 09:45:16 am
Like koyama explains their is no profit for archer to go melee since they carry a freakin death dealing depleted uranium anti tank missile launcher thx to the bodkins arrows getting pierce dmg.

Remove the pierce dmg from bodkins an make only the longbow have that attribute and all our archer problems will go away.

Once archers have to aim their shot for weak spots an not just spray their arrows to hit someone 3 times to kill em regardless of armor everyone with a weak stomach for melee will be archers an thus increase the range spam that we all ready are dealing with.

If the devs wanted to fix the problem they should imo.

A. Increase the weight of the bows so they cant kite around all day an remove ladders archer´s can keep their High dmg pierce bodkins arrows but their counters such as shielder have a chance to catch em plus they cant be immune to melee/cav on roofs.

B. Archer´s lose their bodkin arrows with pierce and only the longbow have the pierce dmg like before the archer buff but they can still kite all day an camp roofs but they will be forced to aim for weak spots to deal the same dmg as before.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Lech on December 03, 2011, 11:23:29 am
I sure used to melee more and run less when I could carry a good longsword instead of a weak hatchet.

You can carry good 1h or 1h that work as 2h or mace. There are plenty of choices for archer to become good in melee.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Rumblood on December 03, 2011, 12:31:47 pm
You DO realize that you can't actually play this theoretical godly archer build that supposedly exists. The Upkeep for this Legolas would be like maintaining Black Plate with Flamberge and Plated Charger. Not to mention he would need to be lvl 36 or more to be damaging enough and accurate enough to actually do the things that are purported here.
What you've created in this thread is some kind of crazy FrankensteinArcher with every attribute you've ever seen from an archer that kicked your ass.

 :twisted:
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Lech on December 03, 2011, 12:34:56 pm
Level 34 is enough to do those things.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: MrShine on December 03, 2011, 05:13:10 pm
Level 34 is enough to do those things.

That's the equivalent of 8 gens.  See you in 4 months!
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Lech on December 03, 2011, 08:17:18 pm
Yet people have lvl 34. And they have 15-0 scores as archers with just lvl 30. Sure, they don't excel at melee, but are good enough to kill people.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: MrShine on December 03, 2011, 08:31:34 pm
Yet people have lvl 34. And they have 15-0 scores as archers with just lvl 30. Sure, they don't excel at melee, but are good enough to kill people.

Wait, are you telling me someone somewhere went 15-0 as an archer?  That changes everything I said, NERF THEEEM!

As far as I know there is one person at level 35, and maybe a handful or so at level 34.  You can have an extra power-draw and still be pretty accurate as an archer at level 34, but even still it's not going to be gamebreaking.

Basically what I'm saying is that's not a very strong argument.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Lech on December 03, 2011, 09:28:35 pm
There are about 1000 people who have 31+ lvl. About 20-30 (i bet closer to 30) people have lvl 34 as far as i know. And the number grow.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Rumblood on December 03, 2011, 09:31:29 pm
Wait, are you telling me someone somewhere went 15-0 as an archer?  That changes everything I said, NERF THEEEM!

As far as I know there is one person at level 35, and maybe a handful or so at level 34.  You can have an extra power-draw and still be pretty accurate as an archer at level 34, but even still it's not going to be gamebreaking.

Basically what I'm saying is that's not a very strong argument.

I went 15-0 as an archer, but only once and I was lvl 33. The fact is that I can shoot 30 arrows, hit 20 people, and go 0-5, and also shoot 30 people, hit 20 people and go 15-0. Damn KS'ing melee! We want assist points!

(Without assist points and/or damage output, we can never ever adequately balance the archer class)
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 04, 2011, 11:35:10 am
There are about 1000 people who have 31+ lvl. About 20-30 (i bet closer to 30) people have lvl 34 as far as i know. And the number grow.

I'd be hard pressed to believe there are 1,000 people in this mod, yet alone at level 31.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Rumblood on December 04, 2011, 03:06:26 pm
I'd be hard pressed to believe there are 1,000 people in this mod, yet alone at level 31.

I know right? It's like the same 120 people playing 24 hours a day!
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Tomas on December 04, 2011, 06:30:14 pm
I'd rather just see a limit of 1 quiver per archer/xbowman and a slight increase in the number of arrows/bolts per quiver so compensate.  Looming shouldn't matter as this disadvantages new players massively

I'd say the following numbers should be about right
Arrows = 36
Barbed Arrows = 32
Tartar Arrows = 30
Bodkins = 24
Bolts = 24
Steel Bolts = 16

Doing it this way would limit the number of arrows/bolts per archer/crossbowman in the same way, but still leave plenty of choice for melee weapons.  This is important as the idea of limiting arrows is to force archers into melee towards the end of rounds.

The only other thing that needs doing is the disabling of weapon racks in cRPG.  They defeat the purpose of limiting arrows so it will be pretty daft to keep them in.  They also encourage camping.




Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Tomas on December 04, 2011, 06:33:10 pm
I know right? It's like the same 120 people playing 24 hours a day!

each with 483 alts since i'm ranked in the 58000s having just retired :D
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 04, 2011, 06:44:52 pm
You DO realize that you can't actually play this theoretical godly archer build that supposedly exists. The Upkeep for this Legolas would be like maintaining Black Plate with Flamberge and Plated Charger. Not to mention he would need to be lvl 36 or more to be damaging enough and accurate enough to actually do the things that are purported here.
What you've created in this thread is some kind of crazy FrankensteinArcher with every attribute you've ever seen from an archer that kicked your ass.

 :twisted:

Basically this. Every archer who has kited you senselessly is not the same archer who has nuked you with a pair of shots against your strength build.

This would be like me trying to add shik's 9PD character to her older archer with 24 agility, then try and smash into it Fallen_Dach's melee archer (who basically uses his bow as bait for people to close with him).
As for fears of level 34s and up, those numbers are extremely small, and they grow about a person every two months at best... Likely less. Most people "fatigue" once hitting level 32. Precious few people don't retire their mains in the grand scope of things.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Leshma on December 04, 2011, 06:45:45 pm
As far as I know there is one person at level 35, and maybe a handful or so at level 34.

You obviously don't know much and yet you're active in every balancing thread.

This mod needs less of your kind to become more attractive to people of my kind.

Hopefully chadz will get tired of paying for NA servers and that might fix that little issue of mine ;)
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Ylca on December 04, 2011, 07:10:08 pm
You obviously don't know much and yet you're active in every balancing thread.

This mod needs less of your kind to become more attractive to people of my kind.

Hopefully chadz will get tired of paying for NA servers and that might fix that little issue of mine ;)

Who cares about actual responses or rebuttals when we can just fling insults and wallow in a warming under served smug sense of superiority because of our geographical location? Leshma, modern poster for a modern age.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 04, 2011, 07:36:14 pm
You obviously don't know much and yet you're active in every balancing thread.

This mod needs less of your kind to become more attractive to people of my kind.

Hopefully chadz will get tired of paying for NA servers and that might fix that little issue of mine ;)
Kesh respecced and is no longer 35. There might be one person at 35 now though, not sure... As even after the respecc Kesh is still rank 1.

There are only a handful of 34s, no more then two or three dozen. I know of level 33 players who have low rank numbers, 40s and high 30s last I checked a month or so ago. Considering there are 6000 active players, I think that counts as a handful.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Blashyrkh on December 04, 2011, 07:56:13 pm
about throwers, i think its highly unrealistic to be able to carry 3 axes with the same weight as 1 infantry 1h axe.
about xbow cav, its ridiculous that the bolt stays in the grove of the xbow while galloping 30 mph and not falling out.
also you should root xbows while reloading since it looks ridiculous that when they are reloading their foot is through the stirrup and they can turn around and if the cav is approaching they can just jump out of the way ...
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Torost on December 05, 2011, 12:42:11 am
too much ranged?.. simple solution.. remove xbow from game.. problem solved.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: B3RS3RK on December 05, 2011, 12:46:21 am
Better remove archery.Xbows are nice.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: BlindGuy on December 06, 2011, 02:30:16 am
fear ranged? buy a fucking shield.

I went 15-0 as an archer, but only once and I was lvl 33. The fact is that I can shoot 30 arrows, hit 20 people, and go 0-5, and also shoot 30 people, hit 20 people and go 15-0. Damn KS'ing melee! We want assist points!

(Without assist points and/or damage output, we can never ever adequately balance the archer class)

This. I used to loose shafts, for 10 gens I was archer: Some maps I top scoreboard, 20:1 kdr, very next map, 1:5. Shoot same number of arrows, make approx. same number of hits. If it IS possible to create a way to track DMG, not just kills, balance might be possible, but fact remains:

2 melee players close, they fight, 95% of the time one or other of the fighters dies. With ranged players, you engage and spend time/ammo on a large number of enemies who a/ you dont kill, b/ dont kill you: These engagements dont get recorded at all, so the actual, factual, effect of archers is very hard to judge since a lot of their effect is unrecorded.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: Leshma on December 06, 2011, 12:41:07 pm
fear ranged? buy a fucking shield.

This. I used to loose shafts, for 10 gens I was archer: Some maps I top scoreboard, 20:1 kdr, very next map, 1:5. Shoot same number of arrows, make approx. same number of hits. If it IS possible to create a way to track DMG, not just kills, balance might be possible, but fact remains:

2 melee players close, they fight, 95% of the time one or other of the fighters dies. With ranged players, you engage and spend time/ammo on a large number of enemies who a/ you dont kill, b/ dont kill you: These engagements dont get recorded at all, so the actual, factual, effect of archers is very hard to judge since a lot of their effect is unrecorded.

Who the fuck are you, if I may know? Don't hide behind forum nick, that's lame.
Title: Re: Archery Balance Read and Discuss please !
Post by: BlindGuy on December 06, 2011, 01:48:05 pm
Who the fuck are you, if I may know? Don't hide behind forum nick, that's lame.

Hiding? O NOO IM HIDING ON TEH INTERNETS. My ingame name is NoYB :D