cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Guides => Topic started by: Formless on January 25, 2011, 08:55:21 pm

Title: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on January 25, 2011, 08:55:21 pm

For awhile now I have been playing 1 hander and no shield and no armour, usually using either the Italian falchion or the Grosse Messer.  As most of you know both of these weapons are short.  Because of the size of these weapons I started to noticed several things about the mechanics behind the game that I thought would be interesting to share. 

Now for a Disclaimer, this will be a long, long post also I am not by any means an expert in the mechanics behind this game, neither am I an expert dueler/fighter that can take out anyone any time or kill whole armies by myself.  There are players out there that are much better then myself , but on the other hand there are players that are very much worse then myself. 

So why should you read this post?  You should read this post because it might clarify for you some of the mistakes you have been making in timing and pacing during fights, that get you killed.  Or these ideas might clarify for you concepts that you have been unconsciously contemplating yourself and bring them to the foreground.  Whatever you do, do not take these words as bible or law as these are merely concepts that I have been thinking about and are still up for review.  Saying all that, these concepts so far have helped me when I remember to use them :)

Let’s start this conversation with discussing the Metaframe of how melee works in the game.  For now lets ignore movement and feinting and just concentrate on two stationary opponents.  The game’s melee mechanics work very much in a turn base way:

Let’s say your opponent is the first to launch an attack, you block.  This is the end of his attack phase and the beginning of yours.  You attack and your opponent blocks.  This is the end of your attack phase.  Opponent attacks and you block, this ends his attack phase and is the beginning of yours.  I am sure by now you get the picture.  But what happens if your opponent chooses to attack again after his attack phase is already over?  Answer, if your opponent chooses to try to hit you after his formal attack phase is over, and swings during your attack phase, you will hit him with your swing since this is your attack phase.  Even if he has greater wpf and a faster weapon he will not be able to outswing you during your attack phase.  Notice, we are still talking about two stationary figures, we will talk more about how to shift this paradigm of his turn, your turn a bit later. 

So now you should understand the basic mechanics behind the game.  Its very much turn base:   Your turn, His turn, Your turn, His turn and so forth.  While this is an important concept that we will return to later, if you have played this game for any amount of time, you know that seeing two perfectly stationary figures fighting without feinting are very, very  rare indeed. :)

To understand the game mechanics in a more complete way, we will let our two stationary fighters add feinting to the mix.  How would that look:

Your opponent attacks, you block.  His attack phase is over and yours has begun.  You feint, feint, attack, opponent blocks.  You attack turn is over and his has begun.  Opponent feints, feints, feints, attacks, you block.  His attack phase is over and yours has begun.  You feint, feint attack, opponent blocks.  Your attack is over and his has begun.  By now I am sure you get the idea.  When you feint you are actually prolonging your attack turn in a synthetic way.  This has its good points and bad points.  Lets talk about them.  When you feint your are trying to do one of two things:

1.)   Get your opponent to misjudge the direction he should be blocking from.
2.)   Goad your opponent to attack during your synthetically extended attack phase.

Number 1 is self explanatory.  We will talk about Number 2 at greater depth:

When you synthetically extend your attack phase, you are on borrowed time.  You cannot indefinably extend your attack phase, as your opponent can judge your feints and attack you midway feint and hit you.  He will be able to hit you while your are feinting in your attack phase because you were synthetically extending your attack turn into his turn.

You can however turn this to your advantage.  When you feint, watch you opponent closely if he gets tired of waiting thru the constant feints and decided to attack you and begins to swing you can simply turn your latest feint into an attack and have a good chance of hitting him before he hits you.  This is one of those instances were a fast weapon and higher wpf will work for you.  This is a maneuver that will not work 100% as it depends on your agility and wpf and the speed of your weapon vs that of the opponent.  This needs to be practiced and is one of the ways of shifting the his turn, your turn paradigm.

Now that we have covered the basic melee paradigm and added feinting to it.  Lets talk about movement. 

This is perhaps the hardest of all game mechanics to explain in words, I hope that I will be able to do it justice.  Movement is perhaps the best way of shifting the turn based paradigm of melee mechanics in this game.  Noticed I said shifting not breaking, you cannot really break the his turn, your turn paradigm, but you can shift it to work for you.

When I was first explaining to you the his turn, your turn paradigm all I talked about is attacking and blocking.  For the sake of simplicity I did not mentioned that during your attack turn you could actually do two things.  You could attack and then make a small move all before your opponents attack phase has begun.  Now the extent of your ability to move after you attacked is directly linked to the agility of your character and the weight he has on him.  The higher the agility and the lower the weight the further your character can move before your opponents attack phase has begun. 

Now let us give our two stationary, feinting opponents the ability to move.     

Opponent attacks, you block.  His attack turn is over and your has begun.  You attack and move slightly back, you opponent blocks.  Your attack turn is over and opponent’s turn has begun.  Opponent attacks, you block.  Your attack turn has begun.  You attack and move slightly back.  Now you are out of your opponents weapons range.  To be able to hit you he takes a large step forward and starts to swing, you attack and he dies.  Now why were you able to attack him during his attack phase?  You were able to attack him because his attack phase was over when he made a large movement forward to get you into range.  When he completed the large movement forward he ended his turn, when he started to attack he was actually attacking during your attack phase, so you were able to outswing him and kill him. 

The above example is very important and when you understand it a whole new world will open up for you. 

Since this post is already very, very long, lets talk about one more fight and how the turn base paradigm works in the context of distance and timing.  Think of two opponents one armed with an Italian Falchion no shield the other armed with a Poleaxe.  Since the guy with the Poleaxe has the much longer weapon he will obviously attack first.  It might look something like this:

Opponent with Poleaxe attacks first, you block.  Opponent moves back slightly.  You move forward and begin your attack phase but the poleaxe swings again and kills you.  Now why was the Poleaxe guy able to swing and hit you during your attack phase?  The Poleaxe guy was able to swing two times in a row without blocking because the size of his weapon in relation to yours meant that during your attack phase you did not actually attack but instead you were forced to move to get him into range.  So when you went to swing after moving you were no longer in your attack phase you were in his.  For a short weapon to fight a much longer weapon, it might be necessary for the shorter weapon wielder to block 2 to 3 times in a row without attacking just to get into range.  Otherwise the short weapon wielder will be violating the turn phase paradigm mechanics of the game and will get hit.

Now I know that the above is allot to cover, but I hoped the above helps people out.  Remember the above is theory in progress that can at any time be revised or totally thrown out, we are all human and apt to make mistakes.  Before I say goodbye, there is one last topic to cover: 

When does the Paradigm described above break down?

I noticed that this paradigm breaks down when there is a huge disparity between two opponents wpf, when there is considerable lag on the server.  During high ping times.  During high fps times.  The better the computer and internet connection the better this paradigm will hold during those times.  Sadly I since I am a broke student all the above happen to me regularly.  :(

 If, I noticed a further demand for posts like this I might continue this discussion later.  But for now, you should know the basic paradigm of how the melee game mechanics work in this game.  I hope that you will find this post helpful as you practice fighting. 

Cheer, and many happy battles  :D

Formless.

P.S  Reapy created two great videos for the vanilla M&B Warband that cover some of what I was talking about in this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHcZjWw9U  <-- Very good basic tutorial
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZZnl09qBKM&feature=related  <--Shows people dying mostly due to timing problems

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: LordBerenger on January 25, 2011, 09:07:12 pm

Interesting reading. I give you 1+ Troll Point. I guess that's a good thing :P

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: IG_Saint on January 25, 2011, 09:14:12 pm

Quote from: Formless on January 25, 2011, 08:55:21 pm

For a short weapon to fight a much longer weapon, it might be necessary for the shorter weapon wielder to block 2 to 3 times in a row without attacking just to get into range.  Otherwise the short weapon wielder will be violating the turn phase paradigm mechanics of the game and will get hit.

Good post, and the quoted part in particular is the way reason why 1Hs complain about spam, when really they just don't understand the melee mechanics.

Personally I prefer to use the word rhythm rather than turn phase paradigm. One of the easiest ways of winning a fight is just breaking the rhythm of the fight. Start by building up a rhythm by for instance just attacking and blocking, no feints or fancy footwork. After a couple of attack/block exchanges, break the rhythm by taking a step back and attacking right after your attack phase or do a quick feint, bam your opponent is hit and disoriented, move in and surprise him with complicated feints or footwork and the fight will be over in seconds.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Nindur on January 25, 2011, 09:32:32 pm

You should input your thoughts on chambering, I use a 1h/sheild and I regularly fake a feint into chambers. Discuss!

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Torp on January 25, 2011, 09:47:00 pm

you forgot the fact, that people can move while attacking.
I do that very often, and that wya, you dont have to use your 'turn' moving.

you didnt write anything about kicks and chamber blocks either, but that doesnt matter, since the post would get much longer and much more complicated

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: kongxinga on January 25, 2011, 11:03:25 pm

Read the whole thing, but in the end, Ping matters the most?

How would a 0 athletics guy fight a say 8 athletics guy without being kited or facehugged?

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Gorath on January 25, 2011, 11:15:34 pm

Quote from: kongxinga on January 25, 2011, 11:03:25 pm

Read the whole thing, but in the end, Ping matters the most?

It's this way in almost every FPS style pvp game.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Xant on January 25, 2011, 11:45:12 pm

Only up to a certain point, though. 10 ping gives you an fairly big advantage, but as long as you're under 100 ping you can still compensate by being slightly better. 110+ and it becomes "nothing you can do"

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on January 26, 2011, 01:27:28 am

I think the ping excuse is overrated. I see some players dominate with pings over 150+. We're talking milliseconds of difference. If you have packet loss, thats a different matter.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Gorath on January 26, 2011, 02:11:22 am

Quote from: Kung Fu Jesus on January 26, 2011, 01:27:28 am

I think the ping excuse is overrated. I see some players dominate with pings over 150+. We're talking milliseconds of difference.

True, but sometimes the higher ping goes in the other way for who it favors depending on attack style and weapon.  If anyone remembers TooSexy with his great bardiche left/right spam and 300+ ping getting mystery hits on people or strange animation delays they can attest to it as well.   :lol:

Quote from: Kung Fu Jesus on January 26, 2011, 01:27:28 am

If you have packet loss, thats a different matter.

Quite right and probably more often than not when people are talking "lag" this is actually what they are experiencing.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Daymun on January 26, 2011, 02:19:13 am

Another important factor that is often overlooked is weapon weight. A person with a heavier weapon than their opponent will 'stun' their opponent after they either block them or they get blocked themselves. This is another reason why the poleaxe user in your example would win.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Meow on January 26, 2011, 03:40:32 am

i like it. i read that long infantry primer on the warband forum once and that already helped alot but this breaks the basics down pretty good.
also it might put an end to the myth that just doing right swing over and over again as in spamming is in anyway effective.
if someone outspams you he won the movement game ;)

EDIT: you also get a troll point for it because everyone loves those :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 05:17:48 am

Good post, much of it describes my style of combat with my hafted blade, and I do tend to get most of my dismounted kills with this tactic. I swing at a turtle, he blocks, I swing at turtle again, he blocks, he goes to swing me, see's me about to swing him again and he blocks again, during this whole time im back pedaling, and I have decent athletics and light armour. He gets tired of blocking hits and when he thinks I've overstretched myself (hitting him 3-4 times on his shield nonstop, basically spam), he then procedes to attack me, but in that moment I backpedal and do a horizontal slash at the same time resulting in dead turtle.

Results vary on situation, skill of opponent and how good I am playing at that moment in time. I'm sure many people have died to me this way and get pissed off with me because of it, but it's how I play.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Unreal on January 26, 2011, 05:23:05 am

nice post + troll point

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: [ptx] on January 26, 2011, 05:35:56 am

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 05:17:48 am

Good post, much of it describes my style of combat with my hafted blade, and I do tend to get most of my dismounted kills with this tactic. I swing at a turtle, he blocks, I swing at turtle again, he blocks, he goes to swing me, see's me about to swing him again and he blocks again, during this whole time im back pedaling, and I have decent athletics and light armour. He gets tired of blocking hits and when he thinks I've overstretched myself (hitting him 3-4 times on his shield nonstop, basically spam), he then procedes to attack me, but in that moment I backpedal and do a horizontal slash at the same time resulting in dead turtle.

Results vary on situation, skill of opponent and how good I am playing at that moment in time. I'm sure many people have died to me this way and get pissed off with me because of it, but it's how I play.

So, basically, you spam?

Pro-tip on movement: If your opponent has longer or at least long weapon and is constantly moving backwards, staying out of your range, it is often a good idea not to give chase but rather goad the opponent into moving towards you by moving backwards or standing still. Then, when he is almost within attack range, move forward, often accompanying this with a sudden attack. You often get both a free hit and get yourself in range to keep on attacking your opponent.

Also, your attack phase doesn't end after you've attacked. It ends after your opponent blocks. So, if you make a hit, keep hitting.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: EponiCo on January 26, 2011, 05:50:55 am

I don't know against fast weapons I've often got hit myself when trying a follow up slash.
Ofc for polearms that's different.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Ganon on January 26, 2011, 06:04:00 am

Quote from: EponiCo on January 26, 2011, 05:50:55 am

I don't know against fast weapons I've often got hit myself when trying a follow up slash.
Ofc for polearms that's different.

Same here, vs very fast weapons i can (sometimes) block but then i cannot respond in time before he slashes again. I don't know if i have to click faster, if it's my ping, both or if it just doesn't always work, because my character has low agi, so a high agi character with a fast weapon could just outspam me even if i block. The thing i will do then is moving around, jumping, trying to dodge.. which doesn't work vs skilled players.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on January 26, 2011, 06:13:28 am

Quote from: [ptx] on January 26, 2011, 05:35:56 am

Also, your attack phase doesn't end after you've attacked. It ends after your opponent blocks. So, if you make a hit, keep hitting.

Very, good point.  When your opponent fails to block and you hit him, you get another attack phase until he blocks.
So remember when you get hit do not try to swing back at your opponent as its still his attack phase, instead get ready to block.  This is one of the things in the game mechanics that makes spamming work.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:21:40 am

Quote from: [ptx] on January 26, 2011, 05:35:56 am

(click to show/hide)

So, basically, you spam?

Pro-tip on movement: If your opponent has longer or at least long weapon and is constantly moving backwards, staying out of your range, it is often a good idea not to give chase but rather goad the opponent into moving towards you by moving backwards or standing still. Then, when he is almost within attack range, move forward, often accompanying this with a sudden attack. You often get both a free hit and get yourself in range to keep on attacking your opponent.

Also, your attack phase doesn't end after you've attacked. It ends after your opponent blocks. So, if you make a hit, keep hitting.

I'm aware that most decent players spam, some of the best spam, and people who can't spam well tend to do worse... Yes I spam, you do too, is there a problem with that?

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: EponiCo on January 26, 2011, 06:23:31 am

No, what I meant is when I hit someone and attack again, he sometimes gets me first instead. It's nice against bardiches and similar though.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on January 26, 2011, 07:24:09 am

Quote from: Ganon on January 26, 2011, 06:04:00 am

Same here, vs very fast weapons i can (sometimes) block but then i cannot respond in time before he slashes again. I don't know if i have to click faster, if it's my ping, both or if it just doesn't always work, because my character has low agi, so a high agi character with a fast weapon could just outspam me even if i block. The thing i will do then is moving around, jumping, trying to dodge.. which doesn't work vs skilled players.

I am not sure what is the problem that you are experiencing, to know for sure I would have to see you play, perhaps the following might help:

Ping could be a problem but if yours is around 60 you should be okay.  It is very unlikely that another player is just so much faster then you that he can take attack phase after attack phase, unless you are really low level and he is very high (possible in old Crpg, but probably not anymore).  So the real problem probably does not lie with his "super speed" but in the way the high agility player through his intuitive understanding of the game mechanics is making you violate these same game mechanics causing you to get hit.

If you understand the game mechanics the way I have described them either intuitively or consciously they open a whole new world of fighting for you to explore and you can devise many new tactics of fighting that reward your understanding of them and punish others for not knowing them.  Now I believe that high agility players have an advantage when it comes to being able to manipulate the turn paradigm that is inbuilt in the game, but that is a whole other discussion. 

What could be happening to you is what I have seen many agility players do and what I call "stealing a turn".  This tactic works well with a longer weapon such as a large 2 hand sword or a spear. 

You attack, your opponent block.  Your attack turn is over and his is starting.  He attacks and moves backwards in a half spin, getting ready to stab you (lolstab :) ).  His movement is just large enough to take him out of your weapon range.  So what happens?  There are two popular responses that get people killed all the time. 

1.)  Most people either move forward and then try to attack. 
2.)  They do nothing.

Lets look at point 1.  Most people move forward and then try to attack.  This is a mistake, most of time people move too far forward and they forget that their move forward is too large and their turn has ended once they moved, when they are actually trying to swing its no longer their turn they are swinging in, its their opponents turn.  Result is they get stabbed as they are trying to attack, they violated the turn paradigm.

Let's look at point 2.  Also a mistake but a smaller one.  Some people do nothing, they hesitate because they recognize that their opponent is too far away for them to hit.  So effectively they wasted their attack turn, waiting.  This lets the opponent attack again, thus "stealing" your attack phase.  A good 2 hand agility player by fighting just on the outer limits of his range can keep "stealing" attack phase after attack phase in just such a manner, especially against inexperience or defensive minded players.

On a side note, what I have noticed is that inexperience players tend to hesitate in such a way that they do not even realize that they are hesitating.  They are just a tad slower to the punch then experience players.

Another side note.  I am hoping that by explaining game mechanics in the clearest way I know how, to my best understanding that a new generation of fighting techniques could be created.  These techniques could then be easily explained to others because everyone would have the same understanding of how the game works.  The result would be a richer community with a higher level of competitive game play.  Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Formless.
   

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 08:15:19 am

I've killed people in the way Ganon describes, and been killed in the same way. Sometimes when a decent player gets the first hit, before you even see your block animation do anything (even go in the wrong direction) you get hit again, and you try to block still nothing happens but you get killed on the third hit. It feels impossible to block, it's happened to me a few times but I've done it to other players sometimes. They'll go to swing at me, I quickly retaliate by back pedal, swing right, then swing left, I sometimes do this and it's like I don't give them a chance to block, second hit usually kills people in that situation unless heavier armoured.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: EponiCo on January 26, 2011, 09:06:29 am

Formless, what you describe has nothing to do with timing (moving too long), only with reach. If the guy with the longer weapon hits on his outer range and moves backwards immediately you can't strike back (you'd only slash empty air). Simply put you have to block until you are clearly in range (and then stay in it if you can). You can make a surprise lunge like ptx suggests to cover the distance or you can just keep running forward, but regardless of what you do you'll have to make 2 or 3 or even 5 blocks before you hit back. In a group fight this is also used to attack one, get away, attack someone else.
The real trick to attack faster while staying in range is turning. Often with added sideways movement which gets you out of range of one directional attack and makes the other often whiff - overhead is too slow and stab kind of crappy on most longer 1h, so you don't have a hard time blocking if he does the right attack.
Both techniques compared with the de facto superfast directional movements are kind of silly imo. I mean seriously, turning you back to your opponent is not a defensive technique, but with right character in crpg it is. Imo once fighters are engaged there should be a period where they have to exchange blows before one can disengage again instead of having to reengage after every single hit.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: zagibu on January 26, 2011, 09:58:46 am

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:21:40 am

I'm aware that most decent players spam, some of the best spam, and people who can't spam well tend to do worse... Yes I spam, you do too, is there a problem with that?

Yep, it's a problem. Spam allows skill-less players (not accusing you directly) to top the charts easily. Fortunately, it is easy to counter: make consecutive swings after 2 gradually slower and slower. Then, every 2h will be required to learn blocking and skill will return.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: bruce on January 26, 2011, 10:08:42 am

Quote from: EponiCo on January 26, 2011, 09:06:29 am

Both techniques compared with the de facto superfast directional movements are kind of silly imo. I mean seriously, turning you back to your opponent is not a defensive technique, but with right character in crpg it is. Imo once fighters are engaged there should be a period where they have to exchange blows before one can disengage again instead of having to reengage after every single hit.

The ability to strafe and backpedal nearly as fast as you go forward is the culprit there.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: v/onMega on January 26, 2011, 10:17:44 am

Well, quite good explanations.

Some other factor being as important as the distance to your opponent is the side (left or right) he is standing at (from ur position).

Means opp. is to your left, your right swing will need a longer way / time to connect (and the other way around).
This always needs to be taken into account, specially when you see your opp. comitting such a mistake u can easily break his attack paradigm.

Everyone can lower the effect of bad positioning by pulling the mouse into the direction your swing is going to, thus making your swing connect earlier than it would without the pulling.

But this isnt a guaranted way to compensate a wrong positioning / swing direction situation.

Something else about animationspeed:
Undoubtfully the fastest attack for 1H is the left swing.
For 2H its the right swing.
(This doesnt take positioning etc. into account).

But the most important thing is the general ability to block everything an opp. is trying to hit u with. You can t kill what u cant hit.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: bruce on January 26, 2011, 10:28:19 am

Quote from: v/onMega on January 26, 2011, 10:17:44 am

Some other factor being as important as the distance to your opponent is the side (left or right) he is standing at (from ur position).

Means opp. is to your left, your right swing will need a longer way / time to connect (and the other way around).
This always needs to be taken into account, specially when you see your opp. comitting such a mistake u can easily break his attack paradigm.

I often go for shielders by hitting their shield then passing them by to their right (my left side) while facehugging and doing a right swing without blocking. If they do manage to hit first by using a right-swing, they hit early in the swing and it's likely to bounce.  :D

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: v/onMega on January 26, 2011, 10:34:18 am

Quote from: bruce on January 26, 2011, 10:28:19 am

I often go for shielders by hitting their shield then passing them by to their right (my left side) while facehugging and doing a right swing without blocking. If they do manage to hit first by using a right-swing, they hit early in the swing and it's likely to bounce.  :D

Oh yes bruce, good reminder, when I started typing i was thinking about that factor being worth a mentioning...

Bad positioning and a long or rly short way for ur weapon will make ur swing tend to bounce off.

Btw Bruce: Next thing that shielder does after a bounce off is dying xD
Love that sound.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Kekn on January 26, 2011, 01:22:48 pm

Thanks for a good read, these types of articles are new here and I welcome it. Good reasoning, great arguments, sound conclusions. From an academic to another: nicely done, high five!! :)

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 26, 2011, 04:01:04 pm

Great post. Describes the rhythem of battle very well, and helps confirm what I was already pondering.

+1 internets

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 26, 2011, 05:00:24 pm

Great post. Brought the mechanics of gameplay out of the shadows of the back of my mind.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 05:12:48 pm

Quote from: [ptx] on January 26, 2011, 05:35:56 am

So, basically, you spam?

Spam and run away, don't forget 'run away'.

This kind of liability-player, especially if they look like a good player from stats and equipment, is a bountiful occurrence to a turtle with any sense.

If his style is 'backpedalling' then really what he's saying is that his style is 'being pushed around', he's just trying to put a positive spin on it.

Fair mistake for a dueler to make, but it's not a warrior's technique without serious thought about when and where he is going to backpedal.

It can seem effective to the user, I'm sure. But to the teammates he abandons through cowardice it's annoying.  For example it's usually great for allowing the enemy team to kill friendly archers.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 05:35:16 pm

Quote from: zagibu on January 26, 2011, 09:58:46 am

Yep, it's a problem. Spam allows skill-less players (not accusing you directly) to top the charts easily. Fortunately, it is easy to counter: make consecutive swings after 2 gradually slower and slower. Then, every 2h will be required to learn blocking and skill will return.

Thing is, most players do 'spam', just because you're able to block alot of hits, doesn't make you a 'non spammer'. I can block sort of decently 1v1, depending on the situation, anyone who's dueled me knows I can at least block a bit and I don't rely on plain spam to kill. Sometimes block is all that saves me from dying, many times. Especially when I run around in my gambeson with my black hood, as of recent. I'm not a pro blocker but I can be a decent one sometimes. Even you should know this PTX, incase you wondered why stabbing 100 times a minute with your pike didn't always kill me.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 05:38:44 pm

Quote from: Vance on January 26, 2011, 05:12:48 pm

Spam and run away, don't forget 'run away'.

This kind of liability-player, especially if they look like a good player from stats and equipment, is a bountiful occurrence to a turtle with any sense.

If his style is 'backpedalling' then really what he's saying is that his style is 'being pushed around', he's just trying to put a positive spin on it.

Fair mistake for a dueler to make, but it's not a warrior's technique without serious thought about when and where he is going to backpedal.

It can seem effective to the user, I'm sure. But to the teammates he abandons through cowardice it's annoying.  For example it's usually great for allowing the enemy team to kill friendly archers.

Tell that to the turtles expecting to kill me with a finishing blow only to be cleaned up by 2 quick swipes of my hafted blade. Tell that to kinggrimm, phazh, and other known turtles. Yeah they've killed me alot but I've also killed them just as much if not more sometimes and they're turtles I'm a lowly backpedaling spammer who can't block right. I'm happy to duel anyone who challenges, no I'm not saying I'll win, I'm just saying I can prove to anyone I can block a bit, and I don't just spam.

My tactics are viable and many players use them. Using game physics to your advantage used to be called skill, I guess it's just spam now.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:01:36 pm

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 05:38:44 pm

Tell that to the turtles expecting to kill me with a finishing blow only to be cleaned up by 2 quick swipes of my hafted blade. Tell that to kinggrimm, phazh, and other known turtles. Yeah they've killed me alot but I've also killed them just as much if not more sometimes and they're turtles I'm a lowly backpedaling spammer who can't block right. I'm happy to duel anyone who challenges, no I'm not saying I'll win, I'm just saying I can prove to anyone I can block a bit, and I don't just spam.

My tactics are viable and many players use them. Using game physics to your advantage used to be called skill, I guess it's just spam now.

You missed the point and took it personally. Get over yourself and reread it. I'm just telling you that what you're doing has a place and that doing it all the time makes you a liability.

With this response you've effectively proven my guess right, you are a dueler and it's that environment that has gimped you. But from the sounds of things you got some self-esteem from doing well there, which is fine when it doesn't prevent you from realising you've plenty to learn for battles.

Look:

Quote from: Vance on January 26, 2011, 05:12:48 pm

If his style is 'backpedalling' then really what he's saying is that his style is 'being pushed around', he's just trying to put a positive spin on it.

Fair mistake for a dueler to make, but it's not a warrior's technique without serious thought about when and where he is going to backpedal.

You can actually become a more flexible warrior. I show you the path to a great deal more power! ... lol

I hope you can understand this time that I attack a style of play and not a player.

If you are strong while failing your team (yeah I bet you can't accept that but anyway), then you will be even stronger when you have learned to serve it more effectively.

I guess the bottomline is that sometimes what you are good at is not what is needed for you to get the multiplier, so play to improve on your weaknesses.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Teddy bear on January 26, 2011, 06:05:48 pm

Very well thought explanation of melee "paradigm". Thumbs up to OP :)

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:11:57 pm

NVM

Judge me how you wish Vance, many do, good on you and on them. Have fun now.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:16:42 pm

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:11:57 pm

Err, vance... You made a judgement on me, how can you expect me not to react? PTX say's I spam, you concur then go further by presuming to think how I'd fight? Or was I seeing things when you said I spam and run away, calling me a liability player, I know you didn't do it directly but if you didn't want to offend me then you shouldn't have posted a quote from PTX that was directed at me.

I don't want to argue, yet here you are passing judgement on me.

You're still crying? ... *slap's Murmillus* - Pull yourself together! Be a man!

Now dry your eyes and look:

Quote from: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:01:36 pm

I hope you can understand this time that I attack a style of play and not a player.

And tell me what that means to you.

If you'd rather run off in tears, then do so. Personally I'd be more embarrassed about that than being shown how to get better at the game.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:18:35 pm

I'm sorry for being a liability.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/lolhurr.jpg/)

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/hurr2s.jpg/)

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/hurr3.jpg/)

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Dunecat on January 26, 2011, 06:21:04 pm

That was a really good post, Formless.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:21:33 pm

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:18:35 pm

I'm sorry for being a liability.

That's OK Murmillus, you will get better even if you resist the idea that anyone can be :wink:

(Spoiler that self-love image maybe? .. Or are you still so mad? lol)

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: bruce on January 26, 2011, 06:23:13 pm

Pffft Murmillus you noob, you're supposed to sacrifice yourself for the greater good!  :lol:

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:24:11 pm

Notice the turtlers on my last screenshot and how I've got twice their score.

Hey is that you on my last screenshot vance? 3 places below my name?

Spoilered them.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:25:34 pm

I think it's [spoiler.]stuff goes here[/spoiler.], but without the fullstops.

I think it's retarded to measure your value to the team using the scoreboard, BTW. It's about winning, not stealing other people's kills at the last moment, backstabbing and lancing, making the most of all those chips the archers took out of your opponents, etc. etc.

BTW the patch made things a bit harder for me... A shame you weren't around when I was topping the scoreboard, you'd have wrongly thought I was good at the game.

edit:

Toned down an accidental ambiguity that might have seen you start crying again ... lol

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:30:59 pm

Quote from: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:25:34 pm

I think it's [spoiler.]stuff goes here[/spoiler.], but without the fullstops.

You have to be retarded to measure your value to the team using the scoreboard, BTW. It's about winning, not stealing other people's kills at the last moment, backstabbing and lancing.

BTW the patch made things a bit harder for me... A shame you weren't around when I was topping the scoreboard, you'd have wrongly thought I was good at the game.

I'm not saying you're a bad player and I'm by no means the best, and I know what point you're trying to make. Many times a turtler has leapt forward and struck me down when I did the same to him, he won becaue his weapon was faster and I didn't block expecting to hit him first. I'm just saying my style of play is viable and you shouldn't just write it off as bullshit. And I was a half decent player before the patch too, once had a score of 43 for 6 or something, yeah I was using full plate though, (milanese ect).

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:33:04 pm

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:30:59 pm

I'm not saying you're a bad player and I'm by no means the best, and I know what point you're trying to make. Many times a turtler has leapt forward and stuck me down when I did the same to him, he won becaue his weapon was faster and I didn't block expecting to hit him first. I'm just saying my style of play is viable and you shouldn't just write it off as bullshit. And I was a half decent player before the patch too, once had a score of 43 for 6 or something, yeah I was using full plate though, (milanese ect).

Frankly brother, you can do as you wish. If you want to be 'viable' rather than 'optimal' then you're already doing more than fine.

Prepatch I killed 20 in a single round, facing all 20 at once as the last man and winning. I almost had a heartattack... I think the balance is much improved now, I shouldn't be that good.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:35:16 pm

Quote from: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:33:04 pm

Frankly brother, you can do as you wish. If you want to be 'viable' rather than 'optimal' then you're already doing more than fine.

My version of optimal would be bjord/phyrex  2h spam/blockage topping the boards at 30+ with no more than 2-3 deaths, frequently. You have any examples of what you define as optimal performance?

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:39:23 pm

I guess I'd be looking for a player that fills many functions, the battlefield being a changing place.

Bjord is a good player suddenly (to his credit, as he wasn't so special before) but I'd actually go for Pully or PTX or Oberyn as being the best mercs to fight alongside.

Before the patch came I expected 2h players to start owning 1h, and they do. Olwen switched to 2h, nuff said :P

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Thomek on January 26, 2011, 06:42:03 pm

The Lolstab with Turn.

I'm by no means an expert, because I don't stab very much. (Kata have crap stab, and is very short anyway, so most fights are about hugging, not range-whoring.) xD

Is the very secret not in the animations, (cause it still works somehow), but that in stead of backpedaling, you turn 180, and thus move away faster than backpedaling?

* Thus increasing the range to the opponent faster, make him miss a swing, then turn back 180 to lolstab in the face?
* Reckon this is more powerful with a longer weapon, but could be used with any weapon.

I gotta experiment with this..

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:43:48 pm

Quote from: Thomek on January 26, 2011, 06:42:03 pm

Is the very secret not in the animations, (cause it still works somehow), but that in stead of backpedaling, you turn 180, and thus move away faster than backpedaling?

Yes, that often gets me and that's a good description of it. I have too much str and a shield, my swing will not hit you if you run immediately after hitting me. If I follow and try to swing again I get stabbed. ... Trying to remember which Merc is best at this... Maybe PTX.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:44:41 pm

Quote from: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:39:23 pm

I guess I'd be looking for a player that fills many functions, the battlefield being a changing place.

Bjord is a good player suddenly (to his credit, as he wasn't so special before) but I'd actually go for Pully or PTX or Oberyn as being the best mercs to fight alongside.

Before the patch came I expected 2h players to start owning 1h, and they do. Olwen switched to 2h, nuff said :P

I don't mean to offend anyone, but bjord is the better player out of all you mentioned there. On foot of course. Oberyn is undisputed champion of horseback lancing.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:45:59 pm

Quote from: Murmillus_Prime on January 26, 2011, 06:44:41 pm

I don't mean to offend anyone, but bjord is the better player out of all you mentioned there.

You can have your opinion about anything you like without offending anyone ever. I think he was the best Shogunate member but he wasn't much to fear for prepatch Vance. I'd have more problems with Olwen (his previous characters weren't that good) and ofc Burr1ck by a very long shot. I figure you're talking about 1v1 again anyway...

It's a very important point to realise when measuring other players that their character might be awesome, or gimped. (imo ofc...)

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Trikipum on January 26, 2011, 10:21:45 pm

Nice text wall. Interesting reading, seriously. But you missed one thing. The double attack is not covered in your text. Im talking about swinging 2 times, first one wont hit and since your enemy didnt block it, you will have time to launch a second swing which will be faster than the other guy's swing if he tries to hit you after you miss.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Xant on January 26, 2011, 10:28:16 pm

Quote from: Vance on January 26, 2011, 06:39:23 pm

I guess I'd be looking for a player that fills many functions, the battlefield being a changing place.

Bjord is a good player suddenly (to his credit, as he wasn't so special before) but I'd actually go for Pully or PTX or Oberyn as being the best mercs to fight alongside.

Before the patch came I expected 2h players to start owning 1h, and they do. Olwen switched to 2h, nuff said :P

Yeha Bjord the nub started h4xx0ring all of a sudden..

And will Olwen be 2h for much longer? Stay tuned for the next episode...

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on February 22, 2011, 06:12:10 pm

I thought I would continue this discussion with tips for shielders.  Sword and board is a very effective class and is quickly becoming one of my favorites.  While playing with a shield I noticed that many new shielders tend to make the same mistakes.  So I thought I would help you guys out. 

When a 2 hander or a polearm character meet a shielder the vast majority of the time they think "Easy meat", however there is a small minority that has figured out how to play shielder very well.  That small minority when they appear on the battlefield inspire fear and are held by 2 handers and polearms guys as "Terrifying".  I will give you 1 tips that will take you from "Easy meat" to "Pain in the Ass" ("Terrifying" will have to wait :) )

We already covered the fact that melee dynamics in M&B tend to work in a turn base way.  My turn, his turn, my turn, his turn.  If you try to swing outside of your attack phase you will get hit since you cannot outswing your opponent when he is in his attack phase.

Many 2 handers and Polearm guys have figured out that if they feint allot against a shielder they would induce the shielder to attack out of his attack phase and try to swing.  When the shielder swings out of his attack phase and in the attack phase of the 2 hander this will give the 2 hander the opportunity to hit the shielder as he is in mid swing.  This technique works surprising well.

So the problem for the shielder becomes how to recognize a feint from a true hit so they know when the 2 hander or polearm guys turn is up and when his turn begins.

Listen !!! that’s right just listen.  The 2 hander of polearm guys turn is up when he hits your shield.  When you hear the thump of a weapon against your shield you know that your opponents attack phase is over and yours has begun.  This simple tip will save you from falling for one of the most used techniques 2 handers and polearm guys use to deal with shielders. 

Let the 2 hander or polearm guy dance in front of your raised shield as much as he wants, moving right and left, his sword feinting in a blur of figure eights, his legs doing an Irish jig.  Let him dance, but as soon as you hear the sound of a weapon hitting your shield you know that his attack phase is over and yours just begun, then go to work.

Cheers,

Formless

P.S  Do not get caught chasing someone.  When you are chasing someone with a large move forward during your attack phase.  Your large move forward will eat your attack phase so when you go to swing you will no longer be in your attack phase but in your opponents attack phase.  This is the other most common mistake shields make  See my previous post in this thread as it explains that dynamic a bit better.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Boss_Awesome on February 22, 2011, 06:52:21 pm

Nice post.  Only thing i don't get has to do with forward movement eating an attack phase.  One thing i've often taken advantage of is the speed bonus you get from running full speed at someone and attacking.  Since you can swing while moving forward I'm thinking this is more of a weapon range issue?

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: EponiCo on February 22, 2011, 07:51:51 pm

Well, that's pretty basic. I don't know if that advise is really the best on it's own, unless you are really struggling.
Also, the turn description is a bit too simplistic. It just means this - if you block you get to start your attack before him. But what counts is who hits first (or at all) and this is affected by various things, positioning, build and attack choice and stun. But you can also forfeit your attack turn by reacting to late, the game doesn't stop for you. If you wait for the block sound you are delayed by your own reaction time and your ping, while someone who presses attack key rythmically (aka spam) is not (not sure about the ping though). I've had this with a newbie shielder, he wouldn't fall for feints after I told him to listen, but I could spam him then.
I agree to playing it carefully though, you just have to be patient with attacks and wait until all factors are aligned in your favor (you must simply learn when an attack is good, and when not). Don't try to chase him stupidly until you have enemies behind you, ofc, but do try to chase. For one thing it keeps the pressure up (and the classical 2hander always has the advantage when you are to far away) but it also means he doesn't have the time to suddenly disengage and backstab your ally.

edit: Oh, some thing about stun, you really have to expect it when using light weapons or shield against heavy weapon. It means you can only block but not attack, but you only know it if you try to attack. It mostly happens on the first attack, so always block twice then unless you are really sure.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on February 22, 2011, 07:57:36 pm

Quote from: Boss_Awesome on February 22, 2011, 06:52:21 pm

Nice post.  Only thing i don't get has to do with forward movement eating an attack phase.  One thing i've often taken advantage of is the speed bonus you get from running full speed at someone and attacking.  Since you can swing while moving forward I'm thinking this is more of a weapon range issue?

Yes it is a range issue.  For example a good 2 hander with a high agility build will not fight at close quarters or even in the middle of his range.  He will fight just on outer border of his reach with the tip of his blade.  Since 2 handers enjoy an animation advantage their range is actually superior to many polearms.  To leverage their range advantage many 2 handers grab high athletics. 

With high athletics he can make large movements, without them eating his attack phase.  So the way many good 2 handers fight is attack just with the tip of his sword and then move back, they do this to inducing their opponent to chase them.  Since most of their opponents do not have their range, they oblige and chase the 2 hander, since otherwise they will never hit the 2 hander.  So the opponent moves forward, as they move forward they try to swing, however by then too much time has passed and they are no longer in their attack phase, they are in the 2 handers attack phase.  When they start to swing the 2 hander is in his attack phase and easily outswings his opponent.  Rinse and repeat.  I have seen some 2 handers fight this way over and over again never developing past this simple and effective technique.  But since they have good K:D ratio’s using this 1 techinque they don’t have to develop anything else.

If you are fighting someone like this be prepared to block twice in a row, as you are moving forward to chase them down, then attack.


The other thing that you mentioned about running toward someone and attacking when moving forward, in my mind what is sounds like is an entrance technique into a fight.  And I could make a whole new long post just on that, but to keep it short:

When the fight is just about to begin, before any blows have been exchange the turn paradigm does not exist yet.  So when two opponents move toward each other, each getting ready to swing how do you know that your blow will lend before your opponents?
Well it depends on these factors, range of the weapon is the most important:

1.)   Range of the weapon.
2.)   Your wpf and athletics.
3.)   Speed of the weapon
4.)    Angle of Attack

If your weapon range is greater then your opponents and your wpf and athletics are high, running forward and swinging just when you two meet is a good entrance technique, as you are very likely in getting an initial hit.  But if your weapon range is shorter and you have an strength build I would suggest that you do not use this technique, instead prepare to block the initial attack and then go to work.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on February 25, 2011, 12:11:23 am

I am a 2H and admittedly shitty blocker. I am also bad at keeping distance. So I choose short 2H smashing weapons. One of my hardest opponents is the fast shielder who just spins around me, specifically swinging from their left to right. They will usually just do that over and over til I die. If I am lucky, I can right block the first one. But after that I can't seem to recover fast enough to block the rest. Plus with their spinning, I don't know if I need to block left or right anymore. Any tips for this?

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Michael on February 25, 2011, 12:53:41 am

Quote from: IG_Saint on January 25, 2011, 09:14:12 pm

Good post,

If he was a politician then yes, so no.

Quote

and the quoted part in particular is the way reason why 1Hs complain about spam, when really they just don't understand the melee mechanics.

Go play on Chinese server for a while to learn something about internet mechanics.
And take him with you.

I am not saying that some people who just started might make mistakes and therefore just complain for no valid reason.

I know everything about this game and know what everything does. 

It is a fact that in crpg for some reason a 1h without shield swings faster than a 1h with shield. Maybe there is some hidden penalty, I dont know.
It isnt in native, at least not so strong, if its there, too.

So his whole post is just a waste of time, because it tells nothing usefull to new players. How many new players play 1 hander without shield? None? I guess.

And even without a shield you say you have to block the 2h 2 or 3 times. This shouldnt be the case, because a 1h shouldnt have so much less athletics than a 2h.
But with a shield, you are even slower.
The damage of 2h/ polearms in crpg is so high, they destroy good shields in 1 or 2 hits.
That means the 1hshielder can start to attack when his shield is already broken.
And then, he has to hit the 2h in his heavy armor 4 times or even more to kill him.
While the 2h/polearm spammer cant block shit, he just backpedals, takes his damage, doesnt care, and then 1 shots the 1h.

THAT is why people (including me) complain about 2h/polearm spam.

They dont even bother with blocking, why would they? They just continue swinging their axes or stabbing their swords, because they know one hit is a insta kill against almost everyone, while they can take many hits.
With my strength build in heavy armor all I needed was the "Great" Axe, what is actually a small axe, and could mindless charge a group of enemies and kill many and injure many more. What is this? Balanced? Ah no.

You get tons of kills without using your right mouse button the whole round as 2h/polearm when you know how to spam.

When you can do the maths, you say a 1h has to block 2-3 times till he can attack.
So now he needs 4-5 hits to kill the 2h/polearm.
That means he has to parry him round about 8-15 times, the 2h/polearm doesnt have to parry once. Is that balanced? No, it isnt.

Quote

Personally I prefer to use the word rhythm rather than turn phase paradigm. One of the easiest ways of winning a fight is just breaking the rhythm of the fight. Start by building up a rhythm by for instance just attacking and blocking, no feints or fancy footwork. After a couple of attack/block exchanges, break the rhythm by taking a step back and attacking right after your attack phase or do a quick feint, bam your opponent is hit and disoriented, move in and surprise him with complicated feints or footwork and the fight will be over in seconds.

What you guys fail to understand is that you have to compare equal things.

With my delay of over a second I cant compare me with you who has the best ping on the server.

So you cant compare you who has some experience in this game with someone who just started.

You have to compare equal things.

And its silly how easy 2h/polearm is in crpg.

We have tons of throwers, crossbowmen (now again), bowmen as always, but in crpg most melee warriors dont even carry a shield.

How many melee warriors do you see in native "quality" servers or clanwars run around without a shield? I see none.

So why is that in crpg?

The answer is simple. 2h/polearm spam is really effective, a mediocre player is on top of the scoreboard all the time, and even a really bad player can bring a k d of 2 or 3. No other class can be done that easily.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Xant on February 25, 2011, 12:56:37 am

tl;dr michael needs to l2p

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 25, 2011, 12:57:07 am

Quote

And even without a shield you say you have to block the 2h 2 or 3 times. This shouldnt be the case, because a 1h shouldnt have so much less athletics than a 2h.
But with a shield, you are even slower.
The damage of 2h/ polearms in crpg is so high, they destroy good shields in 1 or 2 hits.
That means the 1hshielder can start to attack when his shield is already broken.
And then, he has to hit the 2h in his heavy armor 4 times or even more to kill him.
While the 2h/polearm spammer cant block shit, he just backpedals, takes his damage, doesnt care, and then 1 shots the 1h.

Rofl

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on February 25, 2011, 03:14:58 am

Michael Hi,

The way I explained how melee works holds for every melee class, 1 hander with shield and without, 2hander and polearm.  I meant this post to be especially useful to new players.  This game has a very steep learning curve, by having knowledge of how melee works in this game and combining it with practice new players should become competitive with the old hands much faster then if they figured this stuff out on their own.

I agree with some of the things you said and disagree with others.  I think each class has its pluses and minuses I have played every possible class in this game for at least 2 or more generations, so I have an overall good sense of how the game works.  My favorite classes are definitely polearm and 1 hander plus shield.  While admittedly it took a bit longer for me to figure out 1 hander plus shield then it did polearm it is quickly becoming my favourite class and I often get a K:D of 3 or 4 kills per 1 death.

Does your computer and internet connection matter?  Yes it very much does and I did mention that in my first post. 

Finally, I am not sure why you sound so angry, but lashing out at random people on the internet who are trying to help you have more fun playing a game in my mind is not the way to go.


 
 

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: kinngrimm on March 31, 2011, 06:05:00 pm

very well written and thought advices here. Thanks.

Some random thoughts of myself.

Spammer per definition when it should be an insult, is a person who can't block and just spams attacks.

Spamming itself in contrast
is a viable tactic if you strike and see blood of your opponent you have the opportunity to strike again, as often you don't miss, see his blood and don't here the sound of glancing weapon or a block, you can continue with spam. Attacking without blocking. Nevertheless it is still dangerous , one mistake in a controlled spam makes you an easy target to the enemies counter attack.

Spamming for 1h/shield is surly different to the 2h/polearm spam, as 1h/shield you have less range, the opponent can get out of your way by better footwork. The One Hand spam has to be more presice in targeting. If you are lucky you can get 2 or more strikes that way. If you come against a good blocker you have to feint at least after the second strike again otherwise your spam is over in most cases and you have to follow the attack/block paradigm again.

I'd like to know more about glancing, Bruce mentioned he could provoke a glancing attack from a 1h/shielder. What tactics do resolve in the opponents weapon to glance?

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Memento_Mori on March 31, 2011, 06:23:19 pm

This is a very informative post, thank you for taking the time to write it Formless.
I suggest everyone ignore Michael's post, every class takes it's own bit of skills and finesse there isn't really an easy mode but there is a hard mode (playing on EU servers as NA or vice versa :P)

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on March 31, 2011, 09:03:46 pm

Quote from: Memento_Mori on March 31, 2011, 06:23:19 pm

This is a very informative post, thank you for taking the time to write it Formless.
I suggest everyone ignore Michael's post, every class takes it's own bit of skills and finesse there isn't really an easy mode but there is a hard mode (playing on EU servers as NA or vice versa :P)

Thank you Memento_Mori for bringing this thread back from the dead.  I did spend a some time writing it, I wanted it to serve as a primer on how good players thinks about combat.  There is a allot of good content written in this thread spread over the five or so pages.  I was hopping it would be made into a sticky, but alas it was not meant to be.  Anyway, its good to see it comeback, thanks again Memento_Mori.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Penitent on March 31, 2011, 10:28:12 pm

I just wanted to say that I'm a new player, and this has helped me.  I've still got a long way to go, but my melee abilities have noticeably improved!

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Formless on April 01, 2011, 04:31:11 am

Quote from: Garison on March 31, 2011, 10:28:12 pm

I just wanted to say that I'm a new player, and this has helped me.  I've still got a long way to go, but my melee abilities have noticeably improved!

Woot, Success :)

Glad to hear it, let me know if you have any questions, I am glad to help out.

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Gimest on September 21, 2011, 01:32:05 pm

Yeh this is very good thread for everyone who doesnt know how the battle mechanics work. I have played m&b for 7 years, started warband like week ago and this thread just blew my mind :D

Title: Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
Post by: Trikipum on January 12, 2012, 12:40:30 am

Quote from: Ganon on January 26, 2011, 06:04:00 am

Same here, vs very fast weapons i can (sometimes) block but then i cannot respond in time before he slashes again. I don't know if i have to click faster, if it's my ping, both or if it just doesn't always work, because my character has low agi, so a high agi character with a fast weapon could just outspam me even if i block. The thing i will do then is moving around, jumping, trying to dodge.. which doesn't work vs skilled players.

You dont block and then attack, you block/attack int he same movement. Dont wait to see if you blocked for your counter attack, do it as a combo. In fact, if you failed your block you gonna be hit anyway, so try to do the block/counterattack as a single movement.