Author Topic: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)  (Read 18197 times)

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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 05:50:55 am »
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I don't know against fast weapons I've often got hit myself when trying a follow up slash.
Ofc for polearms that's different.

Offline Ganon

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 06:04:00 am »
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I don't know against fast weapons I've often got hit myself when trying a follow up slash.
Ofc for polearms that's different.

Same here, vs very fast weapons i can (sometimes) block but then i cannot respond in time before he slashes again. I don't know if i have to click faster, if it's my ping, both or if it just doesn't always work, because my character has low agi, so a high agi character with a fast weapon could just outspam me even if i block. The thing i will do then is moving around, jumping, trying to dodge.. which doesn't work vs skilled players.

Offline Formless

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 06:13:28 am »
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Also, your attack phase doesn't end after you've attacked. It ends after your opponent blocks. So, if you make a hit, keep hitting.

Very, good point.  When your opponent fails to block and you hit him, you get another attack phase until he blocks.
So remember when you get hit do not try to swing back at your opponent as its still his attack phase, instead get ready to block.  This is one of the things in the game mechanics that makes spamming work.



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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 06:21:40 am »
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(click to show/hide)
So, basically, you spam?

Pro-tip on movement: If your opponent has longer or at least long weapon and is constantly moving backwards, staying out of your range, it is often a good idea not to give chase but rather goad the opponent into moving towards you by moving backwards or standing still. Then, when he is almost within attack range, move forward, often accompanying this with a sudden attack. You often get both a free hit and get yourself in range to keep on attacking your opponent.

Also, your attack phase doesn't end after you've attacked. It ends after your opponent blocks. So, if you make a hit, keep hitting.

I'm aware that most decent players spam, some of the best spam, and people who can't spam well tend to do worse... Yes I spam, you do too, is there a problem with that?
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 06:23:31 am »
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No, what I meant is when I hit someone and attack again, he sometimes gets me first instead. It's nice against bardiches and similar though.

Offline Formless

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 07:24:09 am »
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Same here, vs very fast weapons i can (sometimes) block but then i cannot respond in time before he slashes again. I don't know if i have to click faster, if it's my ping, both or if it just doesn't always work, because my character has low agi, so a high agi character with a fast weapon could just outspam me even if i block. The thing i will do then is moving around, jumping, trying to dodge.. which doesn't work vs skilled players.

I am not sure what is the problem that you are experiencing, to know for sure I would have to see you play, perhaps the following might help:

Ping could be a problem but if yours is around 60 you should be okay.  It is very unlikely that another player is just so much faster then you that he can take attack phase after attack phase, unless you are really low level and he is very high (possible in old Crpg, but probably not anymore).  So the real problem probably does not lie with his "super speed" but in the way the high agility player through his intuitive understanding of the game mechanics is making you violate these same game mechanics causing you to get hit.

If you understand the game mechanics the way I have described them either intuitively or consciously they open a whole new world of fighting for you to explore and you can devise many new tactics of fighting that reward your understanding of them and punish others for not knowing them.  Now I believe that high agility players have an advantage when it comes to being able to manipulate the turn paradigm that is inbuilt in the game, but that is a whole other discussion. 

What could be happening to you is what I have seen many agility players do and what I call "stealing a turn".  This tactic works well with a longer weapon such as a large 2 hand sword or a spear. 

You attack, your opponent block.  Your attack turn is over and his is starting.  He attacks and moves backwards in a half spin, getting ready to stab you (lolstab :) ).  His movement is just large enough to take him out of your weapon range.  So what happens?  There are two popular responses that get people killed all the time. 

1.)  Most people either move forward and then try to attack. 
2.)  They do nothing.

Lets look at point 1.  Most people move forward and then try to attack.  This is a mistake, most of time people move too far forward and they forget that their move forward is too large and their turn has ended once they moved, when they are actually trying to swing its no longer their turn they are swinging in, its their opponents turn.  Result is they get stabbed as they are trying to attack, they violated the turn paradigm.

Let's look at point 2.  Also a mistake but a smaller one.  Some people do nothing, they hesitate because they recognize that their opponent is too far away for them to hit.  So effectively they wasted their attack turn, waiting.  This lets the opponent attack again, thus "stealing" your attack phase.  A good 2 hand agility player by fighting just on the outer limits of his range can keep "stealing" attack phase after attack phase in just such a manner, especially against inexperience or defensive minded players.

On a side note, what I have noticed is that inexperience players tend to hesitate in such a way that they do not even realize that they are hesitating.  They are just a tad slower to the punch then experience players.

Another side note.  I am hoping that by explaining game mechanics in the clearest way I know how, to my best understanding that a new generation of fighting techniques could be created.  These techniques could then be easily explained to others because everyone would have the same understanding of how the game works.  The result would be a richer community with a higher level of competitive game play.  Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Formless.
   
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 08:15:19 am »
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I've killed people in the way Ganon describes, and been killed in the same way. Sometimes when a decent player gets the first hit, before you even see your block animation do anything (even go in the wrong direction) you get hit again, and you try to block still nothing happens but you get killed on the third hit. It feels impossible to block, it's happened to me a few times but I've done it to other players sometimes. They'll go to swing at me, I quickly retaliate by back pedal, swing right, then swing left, I sometimes do this and it's like I don't give them a chance to block, second hit usually kills people in that situation unless heavier armoured.
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 09:06:29 am »
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Formless, what you describe has nothing to do with timing (moving too long), only with reach. If the guy with the longer weapon hits on his outer range and moves backwards immediately you can't strike back (you'd only slash empty air). Simply put you have to block until you are clearly in range (and then stay in it if you can). You can make a surprise lunge like ptx suggests to cover the distance or you can just keep running forward, but regardless of what you do you'll have to make 2 or 3 or even 5 blocks before you hit back. In a group fight this is also used to attack one, get away, attack someone else.
The real trick to attack faster while staying in range is turning. Often with added sideways movement which gets you out of range of one directional attack and makes the other often whiff - overhead is too slow and stab kind of crappy on most longer 1h, so you don't have a hard time blocking if he does the right attack.
Both techniques compared with the de facto superfast directional movements are kind of silly imo. I mean seriously, turning you back to your opponent is not a defensive technique, but with right character in crpg it is. Imo once fighters are engaged there should be a period where they have to exchange blows before one can disengage again instead of having to reengage after every single hit.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 09:43:00 am by EponiCo »

Offline zagibu

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2011, 09:58:46 am »
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I'm aware that most decent players spam, some of the best spam, and people who can't spam well tend to do worse... Yes I spam, you do too, is there a problem with that?

Yep, it's a problem. Spam allows skill-less players (not accusing you directly) to top the charts easily. Fortunately, it is easy to counter: make consecutive swings after 2 gradually slower and slower. Then, every 2h will be required to learn blocking and skill will return.
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Offline bruce

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 10:08:42 am »
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Both techniques compared with the de facto superfast directional movements are kind of silly imo. I mean seriously, turning you back to your opponent is not a defensive technique, but with right character in crpg it is. Imo once fighters are engaged there should be a period where they have to exchange blows before one can disengage again instead of having to reengage after every single hit.

The ability to strafe and backpedal nearly as fast as you go forward is the culprit there.
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Offline v/onMega

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 10:17:44 am »
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Well, quite good explanations.

Some other factor being as important as the distance to your opponent is the side (left or right) he is standing at (from ur position).

Means opp. is to your left, your right swing will need a longer way / time to connect (and the other way around).
This always needs to be taken into account, specially when you see your opp. comitting such a mistake u can easily break his attack paradigm.

Everyone can lower the effect of bad positioning by pulling the mouse into the direction your swing is going to, thus making your swing connect earlier than it would without the pulling.

But this isnt a guaranted way to compensate a wrong positioning / swing direction situation.

Something else about animationspeed:
Undoubtfully the fastest attack for 1H is the left swing.
For 2H its the right swing.
(This doesnt take positioning etc. into account).

But the most important thing is the general ability to block everything an opp. is trying to hit u with. You can t kill what u cant hit.




Offline bruce

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 10:28:19 am »
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Some other factor being as important as the distance to your opponent is the side (left or right) he is standing at (from ur position).

Means opp. is to your left, your right swing will need a longer way / time to connect (and the other way around).
This always needs to be taken into account, specially when you see your opp. comitting such a mistake u can easily break his attack paradigm.

I often go for shielders by hitting their shield then passing them by to their right (my left side) while facehugging and doing a right swing without blocking. If they do manage to hit first by using a right-swing, they hit early in the swing and it's likely to bounce.  :D
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Offline v/onMega

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 10:34:18 am »
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I often go for shielders by hitting their shield then passing them by to their right (my left side) while facehugging and doing a right swing without blocking. If they do manage to hit first by using a right-swing, they hit early in the swing and it's likely to bounce.  :D

Oh yes bruce, good reminder, when I started typing i was thinking about that factor being worth a mentioning...

Bad positioning and a long or rly short way for ur weapon will make ur swing tend to bounce off.

Btw Bruce: Next thing that shielder does after a bounce off is dying xD
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Offline Kekn

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 01:22:48 pm »
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Thanks for a good read, these types of articles are new here and I welcome it. Good reasoning, great arguments, sound conclusions. From an academic to another: nicely done, high five!! :)

Offline KaMiKaZe_JoE

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Re: Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 04:01:04 pm »
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Great post. Describes the rhythem of battle very well, and helps confirm what I was already pondering.

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