Explanation of Melee Game Mechanics (Long Post)

[Vance]

I'm not saying you're a bad player and I'm by no means the best, and I know what point you're trying to make. Many times a turtler has leapt forward and stuck me down when I did the same to him, he won becaue his weapon was faster and I didn't block expecting to hit him first. I'm just saying my style of play is viable and you shouldn't just write it off as bullshit. And I was a half decent player before the patch too, once had a score of 43 for 6 or something, yeah I was using full plate though, (milanese ect).

Frankly brother, you can do as you wish. If you want to be 'viable' rather than 'optimal' then you're already doing more than fine.

Prepatch I killed 20 in a single round, facing all 20 at once as the last man and winning. I almost had a heartattack... I think the balance is much improved now, I shouldn't be that good.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Frankly brother, you can do as you wish. If you want to be 'viable' rather than 'optimal' then you're already doing more than fine.

My version of optimal would be bjord/phyrex  2h spam/blockage topping the boards at 30+ with no more than 2-3 deaths, frequently. You have any examples of what you define as optimal performance?

[Vance]

I guess I'd be looking for a player that fills many functions, the battlefield being a changing place.

Bjord is a good player suddenly (to his credit, as he wasn't so special before) but I'd actually go for Pully or PTX or Oberyn as being the best mercs to fight alongside.

Before the patch came I expected 2h players to start owning 1h, and they do. Olwen switched to 2h, nuff said

[Thomek]

The Lolstab with Turn.

I'm by no means an expert, because I don't stab very much. (Kata have crap stab, and is very short anyway, so most fights are about hugging, not range-whoring.) xD

Is the very secret not in the animations, (cause it still works somehow), but that in stead of backpedaling, you turn 180, and thus move away faster than backpedaling?

* Thus increasing the range to the opponent faster, make him miss a swing, then turn back 180 to lolstab in the face?
* Reckon this is more powerful with a longer weapon, but could be used with any weapon.

I gotta experiment with this..

[Vance]

Is the very secret not in the animations, (cause it still works somehow), but that in stead of backpedaling, you turn 180, and thus move away faster than backpedaling?

Yes, that often gets me and that's a good description of it. I have too much str and a shield, my swing will not hit you if you run immediately after hitting me. If I follow and try to swing again I get stabbed. ... Trying to remember which Merc is best at this... Maybe PTX.

[Murmillus_Prime]

I guess I'd be looking for a player that fills many functions, the battlefield being a changing place.

Bjord is a good player suddenly (to his credit, as he wasn't so special before) but I'd actually go for Pully or PTX or Oberyn as being the best mercs to fight alongside.

Before the patch came I expected 2h players to start owning 1h, and they do. Olwen switched to 2h, nuff said

I don't mean to offend anyone, but bjord is the better player out of all you mentioned there. On foot of course. Oberyn is undisputed champion of horseback lancing.

[Vance]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but bjord is the better player out of all you mentioned there.

You can have your opinion about anything you like without offending anyone ever. I think he was the best Shogunate member but he wasn't much to fear for prepatch Vance. I'd have more problems with Olwen (his previous characters weren't that good) and ofc Burr1ck by a very long shot. I figure you're talking about 1v1 again anyway...

It's a very important point to realise when measuring other players that their character might be awesome, or gimped. (imo ofc...)

[Trikipum]

Nice text wall. Interesting reading, seriously. But you missed one thing. The double attack is not covered in your text. Im talking about swinging 2 times, first one wont hit and since your enemy didnt block it, you will have time to launch a second swing which will be faster than the other guy's swing if he tries to hit you after you miss.

[Xant]

I guess I'd be looking for a player that fills many functions, the battlefield being a changing place.

Bjord is a good player suddenly (to his credit, as he wasn't so special before) but I'd actually go for Pully or PTX or Oberyn as being the best mercs to fight alongside.

Before the patch came I expected 2h players to start owning 1h, and they do. Olwen switched to 2h, nuff said

Yeha Bjord the nub started h4xx0ring all of a sudden..

And will Olwen be 2h for much longer? Stay tuned for the next episode...

[Formless]

I thought I would continue this discussion with tips for shielders.  Sword and board is a very effective class and is quickly becoming one of my favorites.  While playing with a shield I noticed that many new shielders tend to make the same mistakes.  So I thought I would help you guys out. 

When a 2 hander or a polearm character meet a shielder the vast majority of the time they think "Easy meat", however there is a small minority that has figured out how to play shielder very well.  That small minority when they appear on the battlefield inspire fear and are held by 2 handers and polearms guys as "Terrifying".  I will give you 1 tips that will take you from "Easy meat" to "Pain in the Ass" ("Terrifying" will have to wait )

We already covered the fact that melee dynamics in M&B tend to work in a turn base way.  My turn, his turn, my turn, his turn.  If you try to swing outside of your attack phase you will get hit since you cannot outswing your opponent when he is in his attack phase.

Many 2 handers and Polearm guys have figured out that if they feint allot against a shielder they would induce the shielder to attack out of his attack phase and try to swing.  When the shielder swings out of his attack phase and in the attack phase of the 2 hander this will give the 2 hander the opportunity to hit the shielder as he is in mid swing.  This technique works surprising well.

So the problem for the shielder becomes how to recognize a feint from a true hit so they know when the 2 hander or polearm guys turn is up and when his turn begins.

Listen !!! that’s right just listen.  The 2 hander of polearm guys turn is up when he hits your shield.  When you hear the thump of a weapon against your shield you know that your opponents attack phase is over and yours has begun.  This simple tip will save you from falling for one of the most used techniques 2 handers and polearm guys use to deal with shielders. 

Let the 2 hander or polearm guy dance in front of your raised shield as much as he wants, moving right and left, his sword feinting in a blur of figure eights, his legs doing an Irish jig.  Let him dance, but as soon as you hear the sound of a weapon hitting your shield you know that his attack phase is over and yours just begun, then go to work.

Cheers,

Formless

P.S  Do not get caught chasing someone.  When you are chasing someone with a large move forward during your attack phase.  Your large move forward will eat your attack phase so when you go to swing you will no longer be in your attack phase but in your opponents attack phase.  This is the other most common mistake shields make  See my previous post in this thread as it explains that dynamic a bit better.

[Boss_Awesome]

Nice post.  Only thing i don't get has to do with forward movement eating an attack phase.  One thing i've often taken advantage of is the speed bonus you get from running full speed at someone and attacking.  Since you can swing while moving forward I'm thinking this is more of a weapon range issue?

[EponiCo]

Well, that's pretty basic. I don't know if that advise is really the best on it's own, unless you are really struggling.
Also, the turn description is a bit too simplistic. It just means this - if you block you get to start your attack before him. But what counts is who hits first (or at all) and this is affected by various things, positioning, build and attack choice and stun. But you can also forfeit your attack turn by reacting to late, the game doesn't stop for you. If you wait for the block sound you are delayed by your own reaction time and your ping, while someone who presses attack key rythmically (aka spam) is not (not sure about the ping though). I've had this with a newbie shielder, he wouldn't fall for feints after I told him to listen, but I could spam him then.
I agree to playing it carefully though, you just have to be patient with attacks and wait until all factors are aligned in your favor (you must simply learn when an attack is good, and when not). Don't try to chase him stupidly until you have enemies behind you, ofc, but do try to chase. For one thing it keeps the pressure up (and the classical 2hander always has the advantage when you are to far away) but it also means he doesn't have the time to suddenly disengage and backstab your ally.

edit: Oh, some thing about stun, you really have to expect it when using light weapons or shield against heavy weapon. It means you can only block but not attack, but you only know it if you try to attack. It mostly happens on the first attack, so always block twice then unless you are really sure.

[Formless]

Nice post.  Only thing i don't get has to do with forward movement eating an attack phase.  One thing i've often taken advantage of is the speed bonus you get from running full speed at someone and attacking.  Since you can swing while moving forward I'm thinking this is more of a weapon range issue?

Yes it is a range issue.  For example a good 2 hander with a high agility build will not fight at close quarters or even in the middle of his range.  He will fight just on outer border of his reach with the tip of his blade.  Since 2 handers enjoy an animation advantage their range is actually superior to many polearms.  To leverage their range advantage many 2 handers grab high athletics. 

With high athletics he can make large movements, without them eating his attack phase.  So the way many good 2 handers fight is attack just with the tip of his sword and then move back, they do this to inducing their opponent to chase them.  Since most of their opponents do not have their range, they oblige and chase the 2 hander, since otherwise they will never hit the 2 hander.  So the opponent moves forward, as they move forward they try to swing, however by then too much time has passed and they are no longer in their attack phase, they are in the 2 handers attack phase.  When they start to swing the 2 hander is in his attack phase and easily outswings his opponent.  Rinse and repeat.  I have seen some 2 handers fight this way over and over again never developing past this simple and effective technique.  But since they have good K:D ratio’s using this 1 techinque they don’t have to develop anything else.

If you are fighting someone like this be prepared to block twice in a row, as you are moving forward to chase them down, then attack.


The other thing that you mentioned about running toward someone and attacking when moving forward, in my mind what is sounds like is an entrance technique into a fight.  And I could make a whole new long post just on that, but to keep it short:

When the fight is just about to begin, before any blows have been exchange the turn paradigm does not exist yet.  So when two opponents move toward each other, each getting ready to swing how do you know that your blow will lend before your opponents?
Well it depends on these factors, range of the weapon is the most important:

1.)   Range of the weapon.
2.)   Your wpf and athletics.
3.)   Speed of the weapon
4.)    Angle of Attack

If your weapon range is greater then your opponents and your wpf and athletics are high, running forward and swinging just when you two meet is a good entrance technique, as you are very likely in getting an initial hit.  But if your weapon range is shorter and you have an strength build I would suggest that you do not use this technique, instead prepare to block the initial attack and then go to work.

[Kung Fu Jesus]

I am a 2H and admittedly shitty blocker. I am also bad at keeping distance. So I choose short 2H smashing weapons. One of my hardest opponents is the fast shielder who just spins around me, specifically swinging from their left to right. They will usually just do that over and over til I die. If I am lucky, I can right block the first one. But after that I can't seem to recover fast enough to block the rest. Plus with their spinning, I don't know if I need to block left or right anymore. Any tips for this?

[Michael]

Good post,

If he was a politician then yes, so no.

and the quoted part in particular is the way reason why 1Hs complain about spam, when really they just don't understand the melee mechanics.

Go play on Chinese server for a while to learn something about internet mechanics.
And take him with you.

I am not saying that some people who just started might make mistakes and therefore just complain for no valid reason.

I know everything about this game and know what everything does. 

It is a fact that in crpg for some reason a 1h without shield swings faster than a 1h with shield. Maybe there is some hidden penalty, I dont know.
It isnt in native, at least not so strong, if its there, too.

So his whole post is just a waste of time, because it tells nothing usefull to new players. How many new players play 1 hander without shield? None? I guess.

And even without a shield you say you have to block the 2h 2 or 3 times. This shouldnt be the case, because a 1h shouldnt have so much less athletics than a 2h.
But with a shield, you are even slower.
The damage of 2h/ polearms in crpg is so high, they destroy good shields in 1 or 2 hits.
That means the 1hshielder can start to attack when his shield is already broken.
And then, he has to hit the 2h in his heavy armor 4 times or even more to kill him.
While the 2h/polearm spammer cant block shit, he just backpedals, takes his damage, doesnt care, and then 1 shots the 1h.

THAT is why people (including me) complain about 2h/polearm spam.

They dont even bother with blocking, why would they? They just continue swinging their axes or stabbing their swords, because they know one hit is a insta kill against almost everyone, while they can take many hits.
With my strength build in heavy armor all I needed was the "Great" Axe, what is actually a small axe, and could mindless charge a group of enemies and kill many and injure many more. What is this? Balanced? Ah no.

You get tons of kills without using your right mouse button the whole round as 2h/polearm when you know how to spam.

When you can do the maths, you say a 1h has to block 2-3 times till he can attack.
So now he needs 4-5 hits to kill the 2h/polearm.
That means he has to parry him round about 8-15 times, the 2h/polearm doesnt have to parry once. Is that balanced? No, it isnt.

Personally I prefer to use the word rhythm rather than turn phase paradigm. One of the easiest ways of winning a fight is just breaking the rhythm of the fight. Start by building up a rhythm by for instance just attacking and blocking, no feints or fancy footwork. After a couple of attack/block exchanges, break the rhythm by taking a step back and attacking right after your attack phase or do a quick feint, bam your opponent is hit and disoriented, move in and surprise him with complicated feints or footwork and the fight will be over in seconds.

What you guys fail to understand is that you have to compare equal things.

With my delay of over a second I cant compare me with you who has the best ping on the server.

So you cant compare you who has some experience in this game with someone who just started.

You have to compare equal things.

And its silly how easy 2h/polearm is in crpg.

We have tons of throwers, crossbowmen (now again), bowmen as always, but in crpg most melee warriors dont even carry a shield.

How many melee warriors do you see in native "quality" servers or clanwars run around without a shield? I see none.

So why is that in crpg?

The answer is simple. 2h/polearm spam is really effective, a mediocre player is on top of the scoreboard all the time, and even a really bad player can bring a k d of 2 or 3. No other class can be done that easily.