cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: El_Infante on August 03, 2011, 02:30:22 pm
-
It's a suggestion to talk about weight of shields. Now, IMO, shields have more weight than it would have. I noticed that when I was talking about Great & Long Maul in my last post. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12411.msg175192.html#msg175192
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/155/shieldsk.jpg/)
Shields are made of wooden and iron reinforcements. Shields have to be lighter because you have to carry them with a hand. Do you imagine something swinging a great maul with one hand? So.. how hell can a soldier stand up with a shield of 12.5!!! weight. I heard a lot of people talking about 1h is difficult without reason. For example on this post. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12208.0.html The thing that happen is they don't notice that are slower and have shorters weapon so it's too easy to spam dancing around a shielder guy hitting and getting outranged by backpedalling with high agi builds and larger weapons like toptier 2h swords. And it don't mean that 2handers is faster. NO! It mean that you cant hit a guy if he is out of range!
Being a shielder mean that you are forced to go on light equipment and you have to get a high weight penalty from your shield. Why? I can't accept that a wooden shield have the same weight as a great maul!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/greatmaul.jpg/)
Another example. A wooden shield have the same weight as a Great Long Bardiche! :-) Don't make me laugh!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/bardiche.jpg/)
No. That is unfair.
It's not reasonable. It's a simple suggestion. I accept that some shields need to be two-slots. But, IMO, weight is excessive.
-
have you ever held a full size shield? i'm not talkin bout a buckler, but them things is heavy.
not to mention that shields are extremely useful tools, no need for directional block and also stops projectiles.
-
have you ever held a full size shield? i'm not talkin bout a buckler, but them things is heavy.
not to mention that shields are extremely useful tools, no need for directional block and also stops projectiles.
Ofc, and forced to have a lower dmg / lower reach weapon. While the hugher 2h and polearms damage have 46/47cut and a average of 40-42 dmg, the average dmg of a 1hander is 30/31 cut. While I have a 90-100 reach, you have a 120-170.
-
Ofc, and forced to have a lower dmg / lower reach weapon. While the hugher 2h and polearms damage have 46/47cut and a average of 40-42 dmg, the average dmg of a 1hander is 30/31 cut. While I have a 90-100 reach, you have a 120-170.
yep, but 2h are a natural counter to them shielders. Keep in mind 2handers can't just block arrows and if someone swings at us we actually have to actively block in the right direction. Once you master dodging arrows and manual block, you can shed your shield and join the ranks of 2h too.
-
yep, but 2h are a natural counter to them shielders. Keep in mind 2handers can't just block arrows and if someone swings at us we actually have to actively block in the right direction. Once you master dodging arrows and manual block, you can shed your shield and join the ranks of 2h too.
Yeah, 2h is the elite class for pro players and shielders only have to right click and they're invincible and as a matter of course you don't need any kind of skill to be good as a shielder... :rolleyes:
-
Yeah, 2h is the elite class for pro players and shielders only have to right click and they're invincible and as a matter of course you don't need any kind of skill to be good as a shielder... :rolleyes:
well i was being a bit sarcastic at the end there, i guess that didn't come across. My point is, being 2h is more difficult, as it is less forgiving to mistakes.
-
Erm, shields are the counter to 2hand. (protection and short weapon for good close combat performance vs no cover and long weapon with shitty close combat performance)
They have just a strong lobby.
Anyway, shield weight was doubled to counter the huscarl shield turtels and slow them down even more.
-
well i was being a bit sarcastic at the end there, i guess that didn't come across. My point is, being 2h is more difficult, as it is less forgiving to mistakes.
2h is not more difficult. And yes I've played both.
-
well i was being a bit sarcastic at the end there, i guess that didn't come across. My point is, being 2h is more difficult, as it is less forgiving to mistakes.
For me, being able to kill everyone in 1 or 2 hits and have superior range doesn't make 2h a more difficult class.
-
For me, being able to kill everyone in 1 or 2 hits and have superior range doesn't make 2h a more difficult class.
yes, but once again, being completly open to all ranged and having to manual block DOES.
If a shielder with a huscarl faces more than one opponent, he just has to hold right click and maybe turn towards his opponents, a 2h has to actually block all their attacks.
-
It's just different, 2h are offensive, shielders are defensive, you can't have all advantage in one class.
-
yes, but once again, being completly open to all ranged and having to manual block DOES.
If a shielder with a huscarl faces more than one opponent, he just has to hold right click and maybe turn towards his opponents, a 2h has to actually block all their attacks.
Shielder requires more strikes to kill most players, they can't out spam most 2h, blind spots are easy to reach against most enemies because of the shield weight.
It's far easier to get more kills as 2h than as shield. Trust me.
Have you really tried shielder? They are certainly not easier than 2h.
-
Those weights are in to make sure having a shield isn't a bonus troughout.
-
Shielder requires more strikes to kill most players, they can't out spam most 2h, blind spots are easy to reach against most enemies because of the shield weight.
It's far easier to get more kills as 2h than as shield. Trust me.
Have you really tried shielder? They are certainly not easier than 2h.
if you are trying to fight like a 2h, of course you are gonna fail. 2h is a mainly offensive class, shielder is defensive, so of course 2h is going to get more kills. A characters value on the battlefield is not measured solely by kills.
a shielder has the ability to BLOCK ALL PROJECTILES SHOT AT HIM. Shielders have a much better chance of survivability and are more useful in a team melee situation if played properly. Also shielders are great for moving into areas where there are lots of enemies such as getting on a wall and disrupting the defenders there.
-
Shield weight protects against maulers, ykno.
-
if you are trying to fight like a 2h, of course you are gonna fail. 2h is a mainly offensive class, shielder is defensive, so of course 2h is going to get more kills. A characters value on the battlefield is not measured solely by kills.
a shielder has the ability to BLOCK ALL PROJECTILES SHOT AT HIM. Shielders have a much better chance of survivability and are more useful in a team melee situation if played properly. Also shielders are great for moving into areas where there are lots of enemies such as getting on a wall and disrupting the defenders there.
I agree with that.
Imo the shields weight is good atm, when you look which advantage you have in some situations. Also I think devs try to stay as realistic as possible ( beside of Al_Adin... whatever)
-
Shieldweight protects vs crushthrough, as it's one of the factors that decides wether the crushthrough will happen or not.
Try crushing a wooden shield with a mallet and then try the same with a steel shield.
Also, it takes a good 3-4 hits to kill an 18/18 6 IF players in 50-60 body armour with crushthroughs from a great maul if they're holding up a steel shield.
Doesn't matter though, cuz the stun you get from gettin crushed is long enough for the enemy to land his next overhead.
So high shield weight has an advantage too.
-
Shield weight protects against maulers, ykno.
oh yeh, that too
-
Shieldweight protects vs crushthrough, as it's one of the factors that decides wether the crushthrough will happen or not.
Try crushing a wooden shield with a mallet and then try the same with a steel shield.
Also, it takes a good 3-4 hits to kill an 18/18 6 IF players in 50-60 body armour with crushthroughs from a great maul if they're holding up a steel shield.
Doesn't matter though, cuz the stun you get from gettin crushed is long enough for the enemy to land his next overhead.
So high shield weight has an advantage too.
So lowing weight of crushtrough weapon is the solution, not increasing weight of shields.
-
Lowering weight of mauls would nerf them against everything, which isn't necessary.
-
A characters value on the battlefield is not measured solely by kills.
Until something else starts showing up on the scoreboard, then yes it is.
-
Even with sthe steel shield you dont block the heavy mauls.
And you dont block all projectiles, you are still vulnerable from the sides and the back. And sometimes a lucky shoot gets you from the front (and i use bigger shields as well).
-
Until something else starts showing up on the scoreboard, then yes it is.
Remind me to stop dehorsing my usual 2-4 cav a round then and see how well you fuckers perform on my team. Ready for the challenge boost?
-
Imo be an average shielder is easier than to be an average 2handers.
But be a good shielder is harder than to be a good 2hander.
There is plenty of average shielders, plenty of good 2handers, but just a few shielders are good.
-
Ready for the challenge boost?
Yep. Sorry man, but other than the forums I wouldn't remember any of your toons because you're not topping the scoreboard regularly. Those are the players that get remembered. The ManOWars, Balbs, Goretooths, Cyranules, etc etc.
Everyone else is completely forgettable. "Hey, you know whats-his-name? You know, the dude that hovers in the center of the scoreboard alot?"
:lol:
-
Yep. Sorry man, but other than the forums I wouldn't remember any of your toons because you're not topping the scoreboard regularly. Those are the players that get remembered. The ManOWars, Balbs, Goretooths, Cyranules, etc etc.
Everyone else is completely forgettable. "Hey, you know whats-his-name? You know, the dude that hovers in the center of the scoreboard alot?"
:lol:
Honestly, there is a difference between being a good player ("A characters value on the battlefield") and being memorable. I would rather be forgotten and take out a significant amount of cav to allow my team to win (as multipliers are cool yo) then be remembered and cause endless "EFFING fagchers!" and have a top scoring toon. I also doubt that people know or would bother remembering all of my toons anyways considering it is a double digit figure...
Don't mix up Value with Kills.
-
Your poll is a push poll and thus useless, you compare one specific instance (heavy kite vs great maul) or a statement on all shields (all shields should be lighter). Fix your poll unless your a fan of Fox news style "fair and balanced".
Beyond that, as a shielder i don't see the problem at all. I have never felt the weight of shields was unfair as it isn't a realism issue, it's a balance issue. Shields do require technique to be used properly but they are an amazing defensive tool, and as such should come with some drawbacks. Add in the fact that 2handed weapons have a multiplier that adds to their weight penalty to athletics while shields and 1handers don't and you'll see why there is no problem in the current system at all.
That great maul is listed at 8 weight but counts for well more in terms of penalty to movement speed.
The more you know.
-
Your poll is a push poll and thus useless, you compare one specific instance (heavy kite vs great maul) or a statement on all shields (all shields should be lighter). Fix your poll unless your a fan of Fox news style "fair and balanced".
Beyond that, as a shielder i don't see the problem at all. I have never felt the weight of shields was unfair as it isn't a realism issue, it's a balance issue. Shields do require technique to be used properly but they are an amazing defensive tool, and as such should come with some drawbacks. Add in the fact that 2handed weapons have a multiplier that adds to their weight penalty to athletics while shields and 1handers don't and you'll see why there is no problem in the current system at all.
That great maul is listed at 8 weight but counts for well more in terms of penalty to movement speed.
The more you know.
Actually, it's 1h that have penalty to running speed. If you take 2h with weight 2.0 and 1h with weight 1.5, all other things being equal both of them will move with the same speed. Waltz4 tested it.
-
Actually, it's 1h that have penalty to running speed. If you take 2h with weight 2.0 and 1h with weight 1.5, all other things being equal both of them will move with the same speed. Waltz4 tested it.
I could have sworn it was the other way around, but now i'm going to have to check as you may be right. If this is the case then yes, shield weight could use revisiting.
e: And i was very wrong.
From this plot it can be seen that an increase in weapon length will increase run time for a given weapon weight, and an increase in weapon weight will increase run time for a given weapon length. One-handed weapons appear to count as more weight than two-handed or polearm weapons of the same in game weight for the purposes of this run time increase:
Listed one-handed weapon weight Effective weight for calculation
1 1.5
1.5 2
2 3
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3278.msg58740.html#msg58740
The word of walt has spoken.
-
Honestly, there is a difference between being a good player ("A characters value on the battlefield") and being memorable. I would rather be forgotten and take out a significant amount of cav to allow my team to win (as multipliers are cool yo) then be remembered and cause endless "EFFING fagchers!" and have a top scoring toon. I also doubt that people know or would bother remembering all of my toons anyways considering it is a double digit figure...
Don't mix up Value with Kills.
At the end of the day the only way to actually guage a player's value is the scoreboard. You can SAY that you did blah blah blah to contribute, but people only remember the guy that's 20+/2 on the board.
I do get your point, I play a support role too with my spear n' shield vs cav and chasing down archers while the heavy hitters go mop up. But at the end of the day I'm in the middle on most boards and noone will ever know that I dehorsed 3 guys and caused 4 archers to stop firing (through fear or death). Just the way it goes.
Once again, a better scoreboard with stuff like horse kills, assists and such would go a long way to changing peoples cooperation, teamwork and priorities imo.
-
I think the mobility reduction with shields hinders them a lot (moreso than the lack of range/damage, I believe). It's easier to take on two players at once if one is a shielder since the shielder can't chase as well.
I rarely see consistently successful shielders with any of the heavier shields. Turtle up and people can just surround you or outspam you easily. Most of the time when I see top level shielders die, it's because they were going for a swing and barely missed, getting killed by the backpedaling/circling opponent. They're all more offensive/dangerous with the lighter shields for a reason.
I pretty much have to use an awlpike as a secondary weapon to make up for all of my build's faults, so I can be more useful in a 2v1 situation and against cavalry. Heavier shields protects against some things, like crushthrough and block stun, but I'd much rather have a light, yet durable shield.
-
I'm a shielder and I'm happy with the way things are. That said, I'd be even more happy if shields were, on average, about .5-1 point lighter.
-
Once again, a better scoreboard with stuff like horse kills, assists and such would go a long way to changing peoples cooperation, teamwork and priorities imo.
Agreed.
-
Just a few cents;
Crushthrough does not stun long enough to land a second overhead if you play your shielder right. Plenty of time to sidestep and slash the mauler.
Plenty of variants to the shielder, same as any class. 15/21 plays way different than 21/15; dashing with short pierce/blunt + light shield VS juggernaut with sword + huscarl. The former relies on getting behind the enemy by movement, the latter fits teamwork better due to the frequent 1-2 hit kills.
As for shielders being defensive, not even the mightiest 2her can consistenly face two to four enemies and emerge victorious without a single hp lost. Try it, it's fun. :)
And yes, if possible, the scoreboard would be sexier with a points column instead of a kdr, based on damage dealt/absorbed, horse kills and so on. Though I reckon if it was indeed feasible, it'd been done by now.
-
As for shielders being defensive, not even the mightiest 2her can consistenly face two to four enemies and emerge victorious without a single hp lost. Try it, it's fun. :)
BkS_Tyrian, that crazy bastard... I say he gets away with it about 80% of the time.
-
BkS_Tyrian, that crazy bastard... I say he gets away with it about 80% of the time.
He's better in battle than rhade for sure. I bet they'll love that comment.
-
He's better in battle than rhade for sure. I bet they'll love that comment.
He honestly is, much better battlefield awareness.