cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Preacher on July 18, 2011, 04:31:58 pm

Title: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 18, 2011, 04:31:58 pm
Ok so I certainly don't want to start a rage thread, however, it seems to me that every class is constantly getting messed with EXCEPT 2h. This isn't really all that bad since the obvious drawbacks are that 2h can conceivably get owned by missles unless they want to pay very high upkeep costs on good armor. Once you add in the fact that they can just tote a hammer around and blast through any shield or shield wall for that matter, the class gets OP for sure. If ,for instance, a 1h shield build wants to defend against this, he has to make a hybrid thrower build then he gets owned by 2h speed. Now I am not even suggesting they lose crushthrough with hammers entirely, just that it be modified in this manner, hammers get a bonus against shields and ONLY when they break the shield do they get crushthrough damage. I mean hell, the way it is now with some of the hammers, they can crushthrough the shield, knock you down, then finish you off with a second overhand before you even get to stand up.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Penitent on July 18, 2011, 05:18:59 pm
Yeah...I do not understand why 2h, the most effective playstyle in the game, is not getting nerfed like cav and archery is...especially when most ppl are calling for 2h being nerfed (per the official poll).

 :?:
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Smoothrich on July 18, 2011, 05:23:56 pm
How to beat a strength build with a crushthrough mace as a 1hander

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iJTi_OITEo
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cepeshi on July 18, 2011, 05:38:16 pm
Ah, come on. Have you played when Barmace, Long iron mace and some other has crusthrough? People kept bitching about it, so it got removed. Now u ask for nerf of the only remaining crushing weapons? If you get raped by a hammer guy who made his build in order to crush 100percently, just adjust your playstyle. Dance around him, hammers are not just slow, but have also small range, easy to counter.

Twohanders were getting screwed indirectly, being with new sword stab animation, last recent speed debuff, soak changes which mean i have to hit more times to kill a guy with 1Her than he needs to kill me and stuff, yet people still keep complaining. Come on, just try to adjust, you really only need to dodge first attack and then spam the shit out of him:)

Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 18, 2011, 05:38:25 pm
2 handed was severely nerfed with the new animations... I take it you don't remember c-RPG before the slot system and the rampant LOL-Stabs? The speeds were also removed for heirlooms...

2 handers do not need a nerf. This si coming from someone who finds 2-handed one of his least favorite classes.


People need to Stop calling for nerfs on everything and instead find one thing that is the focal point of the game, then nerf and buff other items from there.

c-RPG needs to stabilize not keep nerfing everything into the ground until we are WoW with foam wiffle bats.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Kaelaen on July 18, 2011, 05:38:55 pm
How to beat a strength build with a crushthrough mace as a 1hander

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iJTi_OITEo

If you can land the kick, great but most people can't do this.  I'd say get in a side swing duel, make sure your positioning is always on the opposite end where your swinging so your hit lands first if he dares attempt an overhead.  Obviously you still have to block if he decides to do a side swing but make him pay if he ever tries his crushthrough attack.  Granted, this won't work if he's working together with someone and if he's a good mauler he probably is, in which case you're better off running away. 

I am telling you though, there is nothing OP except teamwork.  Put shielder + shielder with spear together and it's the most infuriating combo.  At least with a shielder + mauler they give you the decency to die quickly.

Two-handers in general are rather worthless.  Make two two-handers work together and they have a much bigger chance of TKing each other compared to if one of them was a shielder.    You also don't get the benefit of the shielder able to completely tie up whoever you're gang banging.  The ability to hold up right block and just let the shield take blows while the other guy does all the damage is ridiculous.  Mauls are good I'll give you that especially deadly when paired with a shielder, but don't lump in the rest of the two-handers with them.  I feel like that would be saying lancing cavalry is OP therefore we must nerf polearms.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Magikarp on July 18, 2011, 05:41:20 pm
2 handed was severely nerfed with the new animations... I take it you don't remember c-RPG before the slot system and the rampant LOL-Stabs?
Animations? They only got a new stab animation afaik. Except the Flamberge, which gradually got polearm animations on anything but the right swing.

Crushtrough is fine atm really, only skilled blockers can attempt it and dodging/spamming them is quite easy.


Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Baggy on July 18, 2011, 06:14:53 pm
Dont nerf crushthtough as i've built one of my builds around it, any half decent player can spam us to death if we try to overhead and it your own fault if you die in a 1v1 to a mauler.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Siiem on July 18, 2011, 07:22:03 pm
Are you high? two hand class is the one that is consistently messed with on every fkn patch...
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 18, 2011, 10:09:16 pm
you're not the first person to complain about crushthrough, but really its not much of a problem these days. If you're a shielder, its "harder" to deal with a crushmy old friend because hes your natural counter. I say "hard" because if you drop your shield and fight with just 1h, you'd actually have the spam advantage against the mauler. Crushmy old friends are pretty much countered by any 2h/polearm with half a brain and moderate footwork, Nevermind the rangers that pick off an unshielded crushmy old friend.

Crushthrough is "cheap", but without it, whos gonna take care of those fucking shield walls?
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cepeshi on July 19, 2011, 12:26:34 am
Crushthrough is "cheap", but without it, whos gonna take care of those fucking shield walls?

axes perhaps? :D
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 19, 2011, 01:52:48 am
Wow you guys are totally right, it's completely balanced that you can crushthrough a block, knock the guy down, then hit him again, what was I thinking  :rolleyes: , ohh and it can be done with a weapon longer than any shielders.

-edit- The length issue refers to the long maul which is a polearm but still a hammer with crushthough and knockdown
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 19, 2011, 02:08:06 am
Come on, just try to adjust, you really only need to dodge first attack and then spam the shit out of him:)

Of course I know how to do this, but when that one hit connects AND knocks you down you are out, not to mention your strategy suggests I am dueling the hammer one on one, when in reality there are two other kill avarice people on either side of him waiting for the stun and knockdown so they can finish you off. There is no spamming in that situation.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 19, 2011, 02:27:08 am
Wow you guys are totally right, it's completely balanced that you can crushthrough a block, knock the guy down, then hit him again, what was I thinking  :rolleyes: , ohh and it can be done with a weapon longer than any shielders.

-edit- The length issue refers to the long maul which is a polearm but still a hammer with crushthough and knockdown
actually almost every single 1h outreaches the long maul. Short maces are of equal length, like the war hammer.
The swing from the right on a 1h adds a ton of reach, pole arms lose reach, by the way.

I have no problems fighting people with mauls, I win 90% of those encounters. That is with 1h. If i lose with something else, that is embarrassing...
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: rustyspoon on July 19, 2011, 02:57:38 am
Of course I know how to do this, but when that one hit connects AND knocks you down you are out, not to mention your strategy suggests I am dueling the hammer one on one, when in reality there are two other kill avarice people on either side of him waiting for the stun and knockdown so they can finish you off. There is no spamming in that situation.

So you're complaining that you are having trouble with a support weapon when it's being used in a support role?

1 on 1, maul users are hilariously easy to beat. If there's more than one, find a friend with a long spear. Problem solved.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 19, 2011, 03:54:11 am
actually almost every single 1h outreaches the long maul. Short maces are of equal length, like the war hammer.


Long Maul weapon length = 125

Long Espanada Eslanova weapon length = 103
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gafgarion on July 19, 2011, 03:59:01 am
How to beat a strength build with a crushthrough mace as a 1hander

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iJTi_OITEo

We need shieldbashing. Oh wait, that would make shielders OP. SHHH!
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 19, 2011, 04:06:20 am
Plus my initial suggestion wouldn't even be the only solution, how about you can block crushthrough if your shield is all the way up?
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 19, 2011, 04:08:02 am
First of all, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU GETTING 3v1 AS A SHIELDER VS 3 CRUSHmy old friendS? Common sense would suggests NOT getting surrounded by crushmy old friends and, oh i don't know, get your 2h/polearm allies to help you.

Also, i've never encountered a situation where there were 3 crushmy old friends working together... Crushthrough is really situational/gimmicky.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 19, 2011, 04:20:25 am
It's funny how I neither stated nor implied that all three of them were hammers yet that seems to be the assumption you all have taken. I don't make petty comments about single situations and I also don't rage about things irrationally. There is one fellow with a hammer and lets say a polearm and hell even a thrower coming at you, the two of them recognize that you have no defence against being sprawled on the ground so they greedily cling to him waiting to take advantage.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 19, 2011, 04:25:43 am
why are you getting outnumbered?
why are you not around teammates?
why are you complaining about people who use teamwork?

You realize that if you have your shield up, the chance of Knockdown decreases Drastically right?
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 19, 2011, 04:27:28 am
i suggest you make a STF 2h maul spammer if you think its so OP, go 21/18 or 30/9 depending if you want speed or just crushing. I guarantee you its harder than you think.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 19, 2011, 06:33:09 am
Thucydides you must realize the validity of my arguments and that is why you can't form effective counter arguments. By up I mean if one were to point his shield at the sky, not just put it in front of one. Of course I am sure you realized this as well but your tactic seems to be just to avoid the obvious and form an argument around any other possibility. Ohh and not to mention attack my playing skills rather than address game mechanics.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Joxer on July 19, 2011, 06:44:39 am
If you can land the kick, great but most people can't do this...

Question for you guys. Is the kick in crpg different from native in any other way besides that it doesn't do damage? For some reason I cant land kicks in crpg. Used it plenty in native. Almost like it responds to the kick button much slower.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gorath on July 19, 2011, 07:49:07 am
i suggest you make a STF 2h maul spammer if you think its so OP, go 21/18 or 30/9 depending if you want speed or just crushing. I guarantee you its harder than you think.

Palatro's crutchthrough build

20/21

6 PS
7 Athletics
6 WM
All wpf in 2h (156-ish)

Now go fight him and tell me you can avoid getting facehug and crutched to death if he blocks you a single time.  He's faster than most, he removes your RMB, and chambering is rendered ineffective.  Block once, overhead = win.

Don't get me wrong, kudos for him for finding a build that emphasises what is wrong with the crutchthrough mechanic.  Well done Palatro.  However it highlights perfectly the retardedness of a game mechanic in melee that quite literally removes your ability to defend at all.

The ONLY thing that I would "fix" about the crutchthrough mechanic, and I've said it a million times, that would be the most fair solution while keeping crutchthrough in the game:  Make chambers/parries (w/e you want to call them) work properly on crutchthrough attacks.  Chambering is the hardest melee skill to master on command, it should counter a crutchthrough overhead attack.  Currently it does not and you get lolcrushed anyways for your effort.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Vibe on July 19, 2011, 09:09:20 am
Crushthrough might be unbeatable in some circumstances, but this is where your team gets in.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gorath on July 19, 2011, 09:12:06 am
Crushthrough might be unbeatable in some circumstances, but this is where your team gets in.

Anytime you resort to the "bring a group" in order to defeat a single enemy then balance has completely failed.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Vibe on July 19, 2011, 09:13:02 am
Right, then backpedal and spam.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gorath on July 19, 2011, 09:58:07 am
Right, then backpedal and spam.

Palatro's crutchthrough build

20/21

6 PS
7 Athletics
6 WM
All wpf in 2h (156-ish)

Backpedal that.

*It's kind of like the old morningstar argument.  Remember Fedor back in the day?  Remember how everyone, myself included, was all "Morningstar's are fine.  L2P.  Just backpedal and sp-crunch-oshit!"  Sometimes a good build comes out that highlights a general issue that wasn't there in native, because the stats were fixed.  With the concept of the whole 'WSE' thing and being able to change more mechanics, I still say it'd be a really good idea to make it so crush through doesn't work on chambers.*
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Vibe on July 19, 2011, 10:04:04 am
Ok fine, dueling a crushthrough that can block is hopeless. I think chamber blocking crushthrough would be ok, I guess.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 19, 2011, 10:19:00 am
uhm, i gots no sword and boarders, but crushthrough weapons are usually easy to defeat. If you suffer at their hand as a shielder... well thats the idea, thats like me going OH NOES PIKES ARE TOO POWERFUL AGAINST CAV! They are supposed to be. If anything chrushthrough should be more effective against shielders as shielders are probably going to be the dominant class in strategus before archers and pikes.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 19, 2011, 11:35:59 am
Chambering a Crushthrough is fine. But Gorath, the OP is talking about being a shielder vs a crushthrough, he wants the ability to omniblock a crushthrough weapon with a shield.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 19, 2011, 11:39:59 am
Thucydides you must realize the validity of my arguments and that is why you can't form effective counter arguments. By up I mean if one were to point his shield at the sky, not just put it in front of one. Of course I am sure you realized this as well but your tactic seems to be just to avoid the obvious and form an argument around any other possibility. Ohh and not to mention attack my playing skills rather than address game mechanics.

your argument: crushthrough is OP because i can't Omniblock it with a shield. I can't spam the crusher because he has teammates.

My argument: You're not supposed to be able to block it. Work with your team.

Pointing it up to the sky pretty much makes you immune to everything, so no i don't believe shielders should be able to Block a melee attack that pretty much everyone can't.

I attack your skill because everyones been in your place where they feel that one of the mechanics is broken because bla bla bla when really its because they were noobs. I've whined about 2h and shields before when i was a noob, now i just rack it up to the person being better than me. Crushthrough weapons are actually hard to use (unless you build EXCLUSIVELY for crushthrough) so it does take skill in using them, especially the long maul, that weapon is slower than a fat man on a treadmill.

now that i think about it, i remember hearing that shield skill and shield weight affects the amount of crushthrough thats allowed. Using a heavy board shield and pointing it up reduces Crushthrough, try it next time. At the very least you shouldnt be knocked down, since a heavier shield reduces the damage taken after getting crushed
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Nurax on July 19, 2011, 12:21:26 pm
If there is a thing to worry about it is the Polearm stuff, sometimes the stun of the polearms are very long and they could even hit you before you could block. IN general polearms are: -longer
                                                                       - Same dmg as 2h
                                                                       - in some cases faster/ fast as 2h
                                                                       - and they got the stun

If you nerfed the "lol" stabb, it is just fair to nerf the stun of polearms too, thats my opinion.

Greetings
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gorath on July 19, 2011, 04:23:15 pm
Chambering a Crushthrough is fine. But Gorath, the OP is talking about being a shielder vs a crushthrough, he wants the ability to omniblock a crushthrough weapon with a shield.

I know, and I don't agree with that.  Again I said the only thing I would do to fix crushthrough would be to make them chamberable.  This would benefit shielders too that were skilled in that they wouldn't be at an insta-loss vs a mauler.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Mala on July 19, 2011, 04:56:13 pm
I still think crushthrough should not be able to block, they are heavy after all (and yes i am biased).
Oww, and they are pure support weapons.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tzar on July 19, 2011, 08:04:02 pm
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Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 19, 2011, 09:54:39 pm

Long Maul weapon length = 125

Long Espanada Eslanova weapon length = 103
Oh, you didn't read my post but replied anyways telling me I am wrong!
I am normally very civil, but there is now a 3 page thread of you ignoring everyone with valid points. I gave you very simple reasons as to why you always get the first swing on a mauler due to having more reach than him, and then from there it is piece of cake to victory. You then pointed to weapon length and told me I was wrong without reading my post.

So i'll spoon feed it to you. Pole arms lose weapon length due to how they are held. One handers gain weapon length due to how they are held. a 1h's Right swing adds a nice amount of reach thanks to the animation. It is math time, apparently. This ends up posted in every thread, i swear.
Quote
Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation.

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50
This puts as at 110 long maul overhead reach vs 122 long espada right-swing reach. Since you sited the longest 1h where even it's ultra fast left swings out reach it.
As I said earlier, only maces and short 1h are fucked vs the long maul, and even then they still usually get the first swing because if you are backing up then step in, you get more instantaneous reach from the lunge.
As I said earlier, me using a 1h I win vs crutchthrough weapons 90% of my encounters, with the other 10% as me being retarded or blind.

*to gorath: I never have any trouble fighting agility maulers like palatro. I never let him get the overhead on me, even when he blocks. It is always a close call though...
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gorath on July 20, 2011, 08:03:20 am
(click to show/hide)

Someone missed the overall point due to hate.   :lol:

Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: ArchonAlarion on July 20, 2011, 04:17:51 pm
All weapons should have a chance of crushthrough based on their weight*misc wpn factors + wielder's strength vs defending weight*misc wpn factors + strength. The chance should remain rare against evenly matched opponents, but a great bardiche vs a shortsword should crushthrough. Knockdown should be done similarly.

Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 20, 2011, 06:15:51 pm
All weapons should have a chance of crushthrough based on their weight*misc wpn factors + wielder's strength vs defending weight*misc wpn factors + strength. The chance should remain rare against evenly matched opponents, but a great bardiche vs a shortsword should crushthrough. Knockdown should be done similarly.

this would be so fucking awesome, but it would give strength builds way too much power. I already abuse weapon stuns and holds, wait until i can crushthrough with my GLA with 10 PS :)
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 20, 2011, 06:32:12 pm
I am not a fan of random factors that take away player skill.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 20, 2011, 06:37:45 pm
I am no noob, Ive been playing for over a year, and my char. is 3rd gen. just cause I don't heat it up with you hot tots here on the boards does not mean I'm new to the game. Yes I remember when everyone raged about barmace etc. I was a polearm then so it didn't really bother me. I just wanted to see what sword and board was like. Whats funny about someone using that argument about the barmace is that they addmitted that the mechanic sucked, so they altered the barmace but left the same mechanic on other hammers? Let me give you an example, idk the map name, but there is a map on seige that is considered generally unwinnable by the defense ,in fact many admins just change the map when it rolls up, D wins maybe 1-20, the wood stake walls are low, offense can take a pre-set ladder on the right and open the doors, and then the only way it is ever won is by holding the keep which has a large outer entrance and a narrower inner entrance to the flag. I was on D with the clan that wears red and uses steel shields, we formed a shield wall and the first wave came crashing into it with casulties on both sides but we managed to hold, the next wave at least 60% of the two-handers on the other team brought hammers and mauls etc. knowing that we would just be out. They knew they would just bust our stuff up and not a damn thing we could do about it. THAT is the definition of OP.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 20, 2011, 06:57:10 pm
@ Tzar, If you think the shields are like force fields then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and you certainly have never held one in crpg. Any hit from the side bypasses it as well as archers always bypass one. Funny enough though a steel buckler defends ones entire body from throwing weapons, but that is a topic for another thread.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 20, 2011, 07:06:15 pm
@ Tzar, If you think the shields are like force fields then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and you certainly have never held one in crpg. Any hit from the side bypasses it as well as archers always bypass one. Funny enough though a steel buckler defends ones entire body from throwing weapons, but that is a topic for another thread.

Yup, I am now regularly scoring hits on the sides of Huscarl users where before it was impossible.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Magikarp on July 20, 2011, 07:18:14 pm
Yup, I am now regularly scoring hits on the sides of Huscarl users where before it was impossible.
Yet it and other shields still have a forcefield, I've tested it with a clanmate, it's not perfect, but much better than before.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cepeshi on July 20, 2011, 07:28:19 pm
I would not call the fact that someone has almost 100%crush through with a maul, after SPECCING HIS CHAR IN SUCH WAY, to be overpowered. With 6-7 PS the crushes happen quite rarely, and tbh, everyone who invests more points to PS should be able to crush anything with a huge hammer.

Yeah, i might be a little biased, but usually i use swords and such, hammers just on good "hammertime" maps. And yeah, it is quite funy to go down some stairs and keep spamming overhead and getting frag with every single hit, just love the smashity sound the hammer makes when it reaches the head  :mrgreen:

also, with 8 PS it happens to me quite often the hit does not go thru, so i would not call this being overpowered.

I am not a fan of random factors that take away player skill.

well, yeah, random factors are not that much fun, but this particular one is easily counterable by somewhat good footwork and timing, not to speak that most hammer guys have difficulties landing the overheads :P (yeah, me included, many times i have to overhead like 3-5 times in order to hit one guy)

but again, if you are not able to dance around hammerboy and hit him in between his misses, the problem might be elsewhere

the thing that pisses me off way more than crushthrough (or how the hell it gets spelled) is the damn annoying knockdown...many times it happens that in first hit i get knocked down by an archer with 0Ps and the 0slot hammer and then just raped before i stand up, but again, as for crush for knockdown goes the same: do not get hit and you are fine
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 20, 2011, 07:31:17 pm
do not get hit and you are fine

Sage advice indeed good sir.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cepeshi on July 20, 2011, 07:37:53 pm
Sage advice indeed good sir.

Some people in this thread are having difficulties with this, obviously. Take this advice, it is a good one and what more, for free!  :mrgreen:

edit: i can bitch about lot of stuff aswell, but when i think about it, 90percents are my own errors, so...i think people might need to get theirheads out of their asses and admit they are not the best players in the world
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tzar on July 20, 2011, 07:51:55 pm
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Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 20, 2011, 09:49:14 pm
your example, you ragged on the map being bad, and that is a separate issue. But your scenario, Let's talk about it.

You are siege defense, you have a defensive shield wall to hold an area [in this case the flag] and nothing breaks it until a specific weapon designed to break apart shield walls arrives -- and it breaks it. A weapon that is almost exclusively used for breaking shield walls, because against everything else it sucks.

Sorry, but that is the point of the weapon. every 2h or pole character will trounce and step on a mauler, which is the way it should be. IDK, I just don't think it is a problem right now. This is nothing like the barmaces.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 20, 2011, 09:51:30 pm
(click to show/hide)

Would now be a bad time to point (Walt_F4 even did tests on this) out that no matter your AGIL or ATHL you will backpedal slower then someone running forward as long as they are not swinging like a loon? I should also point out that NA has several 5ATHL and 6ATHL crush builds...
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cepeshi on July 20, 2011, 09:58:46 pm
5-6ath leaves you to only like 8-9 PS max at lvl 33 or so, which is not guaranteed crushthrough
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Xant on July 20, 2011, 10:08:39 pm
I was able to reliably crushthrough with 6-7 PS, using a lolhammer.

And yeah, you were not backpedaling away from me. Could also block->overhead before an agi katana build could hit me.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tzar on July 20, 2011, 10:27:59 pm
I was able to reliably crushthrough with 6-7 PS, using a lolhammer.

And yeah, you were not backpedaling away from me. Could also block->overhead before an agi katana build could hit me.

U cant even carry the great maul with 18 str nor can u get 100% crush with 21 str and 7 PS.

Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Preacher on July 20, 2011, 10:55:12 pm
@Marathon There are plenty of other weapons to destroy a shield wall, I know plenty of 2h'ers whirling long axes and they break a huscarl in 3 sometimes 2 strikes, great bardiche as well, also you see in neither of my suggestions have I proposed that crushthrough be eliminated entirely. But allow me to amend even my first proposal and then restate the both of them.

1.Add bonus against shield to all things that have crushthrough and in fact give it back to barmace and all weapons that lost the ability, that is give them back crusthrough and add bonus against shield. But amend crushthrough so that it only applies when the shield breaks. This way one cannot merely crush and knockdown and finish off all in its path. (and why everyone is focusing on being able to do this 100% idk, just to irrationally bolster their argument I suppose, because if a fellow is able to do this even 60% of the time thats still plenty of "whelp I'm just dead and nothing I could do to stop it", plus I think they do crushthough 100% of the time its just the knockdown that is not 100% yes?)

2.Allow one to block a crusththrough attack by blocking AND pointing camera angle all the way to the sky. This still puts the blocker in a very awkward position, looking at the birds and not around him and more realistically and fairly represents the threat of an overhand from a giant hammer.

These suggestions needn't even be exclusive, they could be implemented together, I am not trying to take away from the game, I wan't to add to it. I love this game.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Siiem on July 20, 2011, 11:06:23 pm
U cant even carry the great maul with 18 str nor can u get 100% crush with 21 str and 7 PS.

The maul wasn't allways 20 str... besides nothing has changed except the requirement which is easily worked around by rearranging skill points to get a 20-21 build. Try and backpeddle away from that. Besides, usually one crushthrough is enough, if you get a knockdown aswell you've won.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 21, 2011, 06:04:50 am
I am no noob, Ive been playing for over a year, and my char. is 3rd gen. just cause I don't heat it up with you hot tots here on the boards does not mean I'm new to the game. Yes I remember when everyone raged about barmace etc. I was a polearm then so it didn't really bother me. I just wanted to see what sword and board was like. Whats funny about someone using that argument about the barmace is that they addmitted that the mechanic sucked, so they altered the barmace but left the same mechanic on other hammers? Let me give you an example, idk the map name, but there is a map on seige that is considered generally unwinnable by the defense ,in fact many admins just change the map when it rolls up, D wins maybe 1-20, the wood stake walls are low, offense can take a pre-set ladder on the right and open the doors, and then the only way it is ever won is by holding the keep which has a large outer entrance and a narrower inner entrance to the flag. I was on D with the clan that wears red and uses steel shields, we formed a shield wall and the first wave came crashing into it with casulties on both sides but we managed to hold, the next wave at least 60% of the two-handers on the other team brought hammers and mauls etc. knowing that we would just be out. They knew they would just bust our stuff up and not a damn thing we could do about it. THAT is the definition of OP.

If its the map i'm thinking of, You should have brought pikes and long spears. They can stab through bodies and the longspear overheads through bodies. But that would require teamwork lulz.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 21, 2011, 06:08:16 am
@Marathon There are plenty of other weapons to destroy a shield wall, I know plenty of 2h'ers whirling long axes and they break a huscarl in 3 sometimes 2 strikes, great bardiche as well, also you see in neither of my suggestions have I proposed that crushthrough be eliminated entirely. But allow me to amend even my first proposal and then restate the both of them.

1.Add bonus against shield to all things that have crushthrough and in fact give it back to barmace and all weapons that lost the ability, that is give them back crusthrough and add bonus against shield. But amend crushthrough so that it only applies when the shield breaks. This way one cannot merely crush and knockdown and finish off all in its path. (and why everyone is focusing on being able to do this 100% idk, just to irrationally bolster their argument I suppose, because if a fellow is able to do this even 60% of the time thats still plenty of "whelp I'm just dead and nothing I could do to stop it", plus I think they do crushthough 100% of the time its just the knockdown that is not 100% yes?)

2.Allow one to block a crusththrough attack by blocking AND pointing camera angle all the way to the sky. This still puts the blocker in a very awkward position, looking at the birds and not around him and more realistically and fairly represents the threat of an overhand from a giant hammer.

These suggestions needn't even be exclusive, they could be implemented together, I am not trying to take away from the game, I wan't to add to it. I love this game.

Long maul would then be pretty pointless then, so would to a lesser extent a great maul. Why use a slowass weapon with crushthrough that doesn't crush through when you can use a Barmace, with knockdown, with bonus against shield, and a gimp crushthrough, with 92 speed. Lulz we'd see barmaces up the asshole like back in the old days.

hell why use 2h Axes when a barmace has 92 speed AND knockdown?

so no barmace, then there is no way to immediately break a siege wall and Strategus would just be a series of Sieges where the defender Shield walls the opponent.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gorath on July 21, 2011, 07:31:55 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Would now be a bad time to point (Walt_F4 even did tests on this) out that no matter your AGIL or ATHL you will backpedal slower then someone running forward as long as they are not swinging like a loon? I should also point out that NA has several 5ATHL and 6ATHL crush builds...

^
This.   :rolleyes:  "HURR DURR BACKPEDAL AND SPAM!  EVEN THOUGH HE STILL MOVES FASTER THAN YOU...oshitwait...hmm"

Also the player I mentioned (Palatro) with that build I posted (with 6ps and 7 athletics 6 wm) crushes through everyone guaranteed, knockdowns on at least 60% of those hits at the same time.

Anyways.  Keep the mechanic, just make the crushthrough counter properly working chamber blocks already dammit.  Perfect balance.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Thucydides on July 21, 2011, 08:00:39 am
gorath's solution is the only solution i'd be willing to support, and i SUCK at chambering
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 21, 2011, 02:08:18 pm
Would now be a bad time to point (Walt_F4 even did tests on this) out that no matter your AGIL or ATHL you will backpedal slower then someone running forward as long as they are not swinging like a loon? I should also point out that NA has several 5ATHL and 6ATHL crush builds...

well, instead of just moving, you could try swinging at him, a sideswing to the head should interrupt his attack. If you have high athl, turn around and run, or run past him.

Use your damn brain.

oh and if in a battle and there is ALOT of maulers, just bring some xbows and heavy bows and shoot em to bits.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: ArchonAlarion on July 21, 2011, 06:20:26 pm
I am not a fan of random factors that take away player skill.

I don't either; ideally, there would be enough variables in the crushthrough formula for it to not be inevitable or totally predictable (no random chance)
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cepeshi on July 21, 2011, 09:46:32 pm
Wondering how is it possible that i do not crush for sure with 8 PS and some of you mentions guaranteed crush on 6PS? Bullshit.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Tzar on July 22, 2011, 12:49:51 am
Wondering how is it possible that i do not crush for sure with 8 PS and some of you mentions guaranteed crush on 6PS? Bullshit.

Its called lobbyism don't try and argue with people that post bullshit.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Xant on July 22, 2011, 01:57:25 am
U cant even carry the great maul with 18 str nor can u get 100% crush with 21 str and 7 PS.

OK - you can't 100% crush with 7 PS......... aaaaaaaaaaaand? So what? Why do you need 100%? Even 20% is enough if you can block worth a shit. And it's FAR higher than that, so it's imbalanced. As long as it's possible to overhead someone after blocking once, lolhammer is imbalanced.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 22, 2011, 03:50:00 am
Wondering how is it possible that i do not crush for sure with 8 PS and some of you mentions guaranteed crush on 6PS? Bullshit.
Hold attack + hit anywhere close to sweetspot and NOT the hilt = crush always.
Can't hold an overhead in the midst of a fight, which is good. But that is still 50%+ chance without holding.

Saying this from experience. I've had fun with playing WhackAMaul :)
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Seawied on July 23, 2011, 09:00:03 am
Hold attack + hit anywhere close to sweetspot and NOT the hilt = crush always.
Can't hold an overhead in the midst of a fight, which is good. But that is still 50%+ chance without holding.

Saying this from experience. I've had fun with playing WhackAMaul :)

The pun alone deserves a +1
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Hisagi on July 23, 2011, 09:39:11 am
Beating crushthrough:

Block sideswings. Attack after words. If they go to overhead, side step and swing in the direction you move. It you know what an inside swing is than hammers will be no problem.


fighting long maul and another enemy:

run for dear life


OR

Keep the long maul behind the other guy ur fighting. As soon as you're in attack range/view of the maul do everything you can to not let him OVERHEAD and try to get him back behind his teammate.

Keyword: OVERHEAD. That's the only thing with a crushthrough property.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: DrKronic on July 24, 2011, 10:17:47 am
man whatever, crush through weapons don't even exist really, so wait now the maul by itself is just ruining the game, compared to what bec spammers/1h guys with butter knives running around blocking everything/counterstike mode guns guns guns(battle)/straight to 30 invincible shields/and so forth and so on

bring back the crush on bar mace and morningstar, forget the whiners, this lobbying crap ought to be punished, how far we gotta go before the game just competely sucks

and tears doesn't want player skill, he wants group skill to decide battles, what we've done so far has actually reduced the effect of individual player skill dramatically
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Gorath on July 24, 2011, 11:00:36 am
I want to whine about skill while lobbying for a mechanic that removes skill from the equation.  lolnoRMBinthisgame.com!

Yeah....
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: DrKronic on July 24, 2011, 11:50:41 am
lol *wink*
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 24, 2011, 04:17:26 pm
Long Maul difficulty is 18 str imo should be 19-20
Great Maul is 21 imo should be 22-23

imo raise the difficulties on a lot of the items in this game to prevent being able to out move and out swing your opponent using those super heavy or long weapons.

18 str is too low for long maul crush through imo
same with 21 str for the great maul, should be like 22, 23, force people to spec for different items.
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: DrKronic on July 24, 2011, 05:03:47 pm
Long Maul difficulty is 18 str imo should be 19-20
Great Maul is 21 imo should be 22-23

imo raise the difficulties on a lot of the items in this game to prevent being able to out move and out swing your opponent using those super heavy or long weapons.

18 str is too low for long maul crush through imo
same with 21 str for the great maul, should be like 22, 23, force people to spec for different items.

yea I agree, I'd do like 24 str on great maul/long maul, mainly to limit athletics of those who use (so they'd get max 5 ath from doing say a 24-15 build)

in fact I'd look at statistically what kinda builds are being used and tweak quite a few weapons upwards in str, seeing that the regular range of characters falls somewhere between 12 str-24 str(yes I know and have made characters outside that, just saying for example)
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: Siiem on July 27, 2011, 05:07:52 pm
in fact I'd look at statistically what kinda builds are being used and tweak quite a few weapons upwards in str

Fu...
Title: Re: The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough
Post by: DrKronic on July 29, 2011, 01:24:20 am
Fu...

the reason being Dev's should consider 18 str as "Average/Balanced" where as even at 15 str u should be considered weaker than "Average" and therefore not able to use strength based weapons, like bar maces/bec's/long spears/pikes/warhammers*hell I think warhammer is 18 str*

this would really help weaken the hyper agi sausage hiding polearm guys everyone is playing(me included)