The Two Hander Problem and Crushthrough

[Magikarp]

Yup, I am now regularly scoring hits on the sides of Huscarl users where before it was impossible.

Yet it and other shields still have a forcefield, I've tested it with a clanmate, it's not perfect, but much better than before.

[Cepeshi]

I would not call the fact that someone has almost 100%crush through with a maul, after SPECCING HIS CHAR IN SUCH WAY, to be overpowered. With 6-7 PS the crushes happen quite rarely, and tbh, everyone who invests more points to PS should be able to crush anything with a huge hammer.

Yeah, i might be a little biased, but usually i use swords and such, hammers just on good "hammertime" maps. And yeah, it is quite funy to go down some stairs and keep spamming overhead and getting frag with every single hit, just love the smashity sound the hammer makes when it reaches the head 

also, with 8 PS it happens to me quite often the hit does not go thru, so i would not call this being overpowered.

I am not a fan of random factors that take away player skill.

well, yeah, random factors are not that much fun, but this particular one is easily counterable by somewhat good footwork and timing, not to speak that most hammer guys have difficulties landing the overheads (yeah, me included, many times i have to overhead like 3-5 times in order to hit one guy)

but again, if you are not able to dance around hammerboy and hit him in between his misses, the problem might be elsewhere

the thing that pisses me off way more than crushthrough (or how the hell it gets spelled) is the damn annoying knockdown...many times it happens that in first hit i get knocked down by an archer with 0Ps and the 0slot hammer and then just raped before i stand up, but again, as for crush for knockdown goes the same: do not get hit and you are fine

[Preacher]

do not get hit and you are fine

Sage advice indeed good sir.

[Cepeshi]

Sage advice indeed good sir.

Some people in this thread are having difficulties with this, obviously. Take this advice, it is a good one and what more, for free! 

edit: i can bitch about lot of stuff aswell, but when i think about it, 90percents are my own errors, so...i think people might need to get theirheads out of their asses and admit they are not the best players in the world

[Tzar]

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[Cyclopsided]

your example, you ragged on the map being bad, and that is a separate issue. But your scenario, Let's talk about it.

You are siege defense, you have a defensive shield wall to hold an area [in this case the flag] and nothing breaks it until a specific weapon designed to break apart shield walls arrives -- and it breaks it. A weapon that is almost exclusively used for breaking shield walls, because against everything else it sucks.

Sorry, but that is the point of the weapon. every 2h or pole character will trounce and step on a mauler, which is the way it should be. IDK, I just don't think it is a problem right now. This is nothing like the barmaces.

[Tears of Destiny]

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Would now be a bad time to point (Walt_F4 even did tests on this) out that no matter your AGIL or ATHL you will backpedal slower then someone running forward as long as they are not swinging like a loon? I should also point out that NA has several 5ATHL and 6ATHL crush builds...

[Cepeshi]

5-6ath leaves you to only like 8-9 PS max at lvl 33 or so, which is not guaranteed crushthrough

[Xant]

I was able to reliably crushthrough with 6-7 PS, using a lolhammer.

And yeah, you were not backpedaling away from me. Could also block->overhead before an agi katana build could hit me.

[Tzar]

I was able to reliably crushthrough with 6-7 PS, using a lolhammer.

And yeah, you were not backpedaling away from me. Could also block->overhead before an agi katana build could hit me.

U cant even carry the great maul with 18 str nor can u get 100% crush with 21 str and 7 PS.

[Preacher]

@Marathon There are plenty of other weapons to destroy a shield wall, I know plenty of 2h'ers whirling long axes and they break a huscarl in 3 sometimes 2 strikes, great bardiche as well, also you see in neither of my suggestions have I proposed that crushthrough be eliminated entirely. But allow me to amend even my first proposal and then restate the both of them.

1.Add bonus against shield to all things that have crushthrough and in fact give it back to barmace and all weapons that lost the ability, that is give them back crusthrough and add bonus against shield. But amend crushthrough so that it only applies when the shield breaks. This way one cannot merely crush and knockdown and finish off all in its path. (and why everyone is focusing on being able to do this 100% idk, just to irrationally bolster their argument I suppose, because if a fellow is able to do this even 60% of the time thats still plenty of "whelp I'm just dead and nothing I could do to stop it", plus I think they do crushthough 100% of the time its just the knockdown that is not 100% yes?)

2.Allow one to block a crusththrough attack by blocking AND pointing camera angle all the way to the sky. This still puts the blocker in a very awkward position, looking at the birds and not around him and more realistically and fairly represents the threat of an overhand from a giant hammer.

These suggestions needn't even be exclusive, they could be implemented together, I am not trying to take away from the game, I wan't to add to it. I love this game.

[Siiem]

U cant even carry the great maul with 18 str nor can u get 100% crush with 21 str and 7 PS.

The maul wasn't allways 20 str... besides nothing has changed except the requirement which is easily worked around by rearranging skill points to get a 20-21 build. Try and backpeddle away from that. Besides, usually one crushthrough is enough, if you get a knockdown aswell you've won.

[Thucydides]

I am no noob, Ive been playing for over a year, and my char. is 3rd gen. just cause I don't heat it up with you hot tots here on the boards does not mean I'm new to the game. Yes I remember when everyone raged about barmace etc. I was a polearm then so it didn't really bother me. I just wanted to see what sword and board was like. Whats funny about someone using that argument about the barmace is that they addmitted that the mechanic sucked, so they altered the barmace but left the same mechanic on other hammers? Let me give you an example, idk the map name, but there is a map on seige that is considered generally unwinnable by the defense ,in fact many admins just change the map when it rolls up, D wins maybe 1-20, the wood stake walls are low, offense can take a pre-set ladder on the right and open the doors, and then the only way it is ever won is by holding the keep which has a large outer entrance and a narrower inner entrance to the flag. I was on D with the clan that wears red and uses steel shields, we formed a shield wall and the first wave came crashing into it with casulties on both sides but we managed to hold, the next wave at least 60% of the two-handers on the other team brought hammers and mauls etc. knowing that we would just be out. They knew they would just bust our stuff up and not a damn thing we could do about it. THAT is the definition of OP.

If its the map i'm thinking of, You should have brought pikes and long spears. They can stab through bodies and the longspear overheads through bodies. But that would require teamwork lulz.

[Thucydides]

@Marathon There are plenty of other weapons to destroy a shield wall, I know plenty of 2h'ers whirling long axes and they break a huscarl in 3 sometimes 2 strikes, great bardiche as well, also you see in neither of my suggestions have I proposed that crushthrough be eliminated entirely. But allow me to amend even my first proposal and then restate the both of them.

1.Add bonus against shield to all things that have crushthrough and in fact give it back to barmace and all weapons that lost the ability, that is give them back crusthrough and add bonus against shield. But amend crushthrough so that it only applies when the shield breaks. This way one cannot merely crush and knockdown and finish off all in its path. (and why everyone is focusing on being able to do this 100% idk, just to irrationally bolster their argument I suppose, because if a fellow is able to do this even 60% of the time thats still plenty of "whelp I'm just dead and nothing I could do to stop it", plus I think they do crushthough 100% of the time its just the knockdown that is not 100% yes?)

2.Allow one to block a crusththrough attack by blocking AND pointing camera angle all the way to the sky. This still puts the blocker in a very awkward position, looking at the birds and not around him and more realistically and fairly represents the threat of an overhand from a giant hammer.

These suggestions needn't even be exclusive, they could be implemented together, I am not trying to take away from the game, I wan't to add to it. I love this game.

Long maul would then be pretty pointless then, so would to a lesser extent a great maul. Why use a slowass weapon with crushthrough that doesn't crush through when you can use a Barmace, with knockdown, with bonus against shield, and a gimp crushthrough, with 92 speed. Lulz we'd see barmaces up the asshole like back in the old days.

hell why use 2h Axes when a barmace has 92 speed AND knockdown?

so no barmace, then there is no way to immediately break a siege wall and Strategus would just be a series of Sieges where the defender Shield walls the opponent.

[Gorath]

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Would now be a bad time to point (Walt_F4 even did tests on this) out that no matter your AGIL or ATHL you will backpedal slower then someone running forward as long as they are not swinging like a loon? I should also point out that NA has several 5ATHL and 6ATHL crush builds...

^
This.     "HURR DURR BACKPEDAL AND SPAM!  EVEN THOUGH HE STILL MOVES FASTER THAN YOU...oshitwait...hmm"

Also the player I mentioned (Palatro) with that build I posted (with 6ps and 7 athletics 6 wm) crushes through everyone guaranteed, knockdowns on at least 60% of those hits at the same time.

Anyways.  Keep the mechanic, just make the crushthrough counter properly working chamber blocks already dammit.  Perfect balance.