Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?

[Bulzur]

Title means everything.
After feeling cav was overpowered, and hearing all cav players countering my balance arguments with a "buy a pike", i retired and bought a pike, with my polearm user. And... i still feel cav is overpowered.

So yes, i basically survive longer than the rest of the team wich gets picked off by the ennemy cav, no, i can't do anything against HA, yes, two synchro cav can kill me. I understand all that, and even if i'd like it to change, it's not the worse.

When i finally meet a noob cav, or manage to hit his horse thanks to pretending be afk, i'm happy. But the horse is still alive (8 PS), so i do another thrust to the head of the horse, to definitely kill it. And... surprise ! BLOCK ! How can horsemen protect their horse by simply downblocking ? It's completely silly. And thanks to their stupid maneuver, they can run away just like that. Now you mustn't stop them once with a pike, you must stop them at least twice, or have archer support that doesn't die.

I'm not suggesting anything, cause i'm pretty sure this stupid hitblock is hardcoded and comes from Talesworld, and i'm sure we'll hear complains from cavs for 2 all years if you prevent them from blocking. But i'd like to have some dicussion with all thoses players out there. Thoses who do their best against cav, but it's sometimes just not enough. And hopefully some not-too-biaised point of view from cav player.

Currently, all the funny/raging things that can happen :
-good maneuver horses can evage ranged attacks at mid-range
-good lance cav can couch you in 2sec, and thrust two consecutive times in 3sec.
-good maneuver horses stay maximum 2sec "stunned" when they run into a wall, or a pike. They're out of reach in a bit more than 2 attacks.
-slow horses can bump you twice, while staying on you.
-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman.
-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage.
-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction.
-when your horse dies, you'll fall, sometimes slide on a few meters, or even teleport bug to a different place that where people think you are, and switch weapon/bring a shield while being smashed on the ground. Don't ask me how you do that, i'm still trying to figure it out.
-when a pikeman stops your horse, you can actually still stab him, sometimes killing him. Works with a 1hander slash too, providing good timing/luck.
-when succesfully killing a horseman charging you, without hurting the horse, the horse still bumps you, and can even kill you. When that happens, it counts as if it's the player that killed you, and not a random horse.
-you can chamber lances with a good overhead or thrust with a good timing, but you'll always be out of range anyway if the cav is not too bad. So just downblock for the same effect, less dangerous.
-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman.


If you find any others, tell me, and i'll add them to the list. All thoses wonderful memories. About cav being balanced.


Spoiler for moderators :

(click to show/hide)

I don't know if this belongs to "General discussion", but since it's somewhat serious (spam), not suggesting anything(suggestions corner) and related to crpg (General offtopic), i felt this was the best place. Feel free to move it with my blessing if you think otherwise, though.

[nuffen]

Pike on horse is using an exploit, and if an admin catch you using it, you might end up finding another game to play.

[Tears of Destiny]

Stab the horse at a lower spot to avoid them blocking with a downblock (lower then the legs of the rider), or simply stab the very rump of the horse.

[Dehitay]

Pike on horse is using an exploit, and if an admin catch you using it, you might end up finding another game to play.

That was kind of random. Did a post get deleted before I could read it or something?

[polkafranzi]

you sound like kesh

[Rhaelys]

Title means everything.
After feeling cav was overpowered, and hearing all cav players countering my balance arguments with a "buy a pike", i retired and bought a pike, with my polearm user. And... i still feel cav is overpowered.

So yes, i basically survive longer than the rest of the team wich gets picked off by the ennemy cav, no, i can't do anything against HA, yes, two synchro cav can kill me. I understand all that, and even if i'd like it to change, it's not the worse.

When i finally meet a noob cav, or manage to hit his horse thanks to pretending be afk, i'm happy. But the horse is still alive (8 PS), so i do another thrust to the head of the horse, to definitely kill it. And... surprise ! BLOCK ! How can horsemen protect their horse by simply downblocking ? It's completely silly. And thanks to their stupid maneuver, they can run away just like that. Now you mustn't stop them once with a pike, you must stop them at least twice, or have archer support that doesn't die.

I'm not suggesting anything, cause i'm pretty sure this stupid hitblock is hardcoded and comes from Talesworld, and i'm sure we'll hear complains from cavs for 2 all years if you prevent them from blocking. But i'd like to have some dicussion with all thoses players out there. Thoses who do their best against cav, but it's sometimes just not enough. And hopefully some not-too-biaised point of view from cav player.

Currently, all the funny/raging things that can happen :
-good maneuver horses can evage ranged attacks at mid-range
-good lance cav can couch you in 2sec, and thrust two consecutive times in 3sec.
-good maneuver horses stay maximum 2sec "stunned" when they run into a wall, or a pike. They're out of reach in a bit more than 2 attacks.
-slow horses can bump you twice, while staying on you.
-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman.
-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage.
-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction.
-when your horse dies, you'll fall, sometimes slide on a few meters, or even teleport bug to a different place that where people think you are, and switch weapon/bring a shield while being smashed on the ground. Don't ask me how you do that, i'm still trying to figure it out.
-when a pikeman stops your horse, you can actually still stab him, sometimes killing him. Works with a 1hander slash too, providing good timing/luck.
-when succesfully killing a horseman charging you, without hurting the horse, the horse still bumps you, and can even kill you. When that happens, it counts as if it's the player that killed you, and not a random horse.
-you can chamber lances with a good overhead or thrust with a good timing, but you'll always be out of range anyway if the cav is not too bad. So just downblock for the same effect, less dangerous.
-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman.


If you find any others, tell me, and i'll add them to the list. All thoses wonderful memories. About cav being balanced.


Spoiler for moderators :

(click to show/hide)

I don't know if this belongs to "General discussion", but since it's somewhat serious (spam), not suggesting anything(suggestions corner) and related to crpg (General offtopic), i felt this was the best place. Feel free to move it with my blessing if you think otherwise, though.

[EponiCo]

He's talking about pike on foot vs. horse I assume. And yeah, sometimes you can block attacks on the horse (shitty hitboxes I guess, or people not really aiming for the horse), but mostly not. That's kind of my pet peeves, if you get into an actual duel with someone it always goes that way, he steps back and starts killing your horse, and then you while you are lying on the floor.
Ofc, many ways to die vs. horse are quite lame, but the other side of the coin is that you don't really have options to kill otherwise from horse (well, the silly swings that sometimes travel through the horse head and 5 m beyond when you stop them should go, but it doesn't happen that often).
Well, if I would change something I'd make horses able to move sidewards. That way you could press against people and pressure them to protect your horse.It could be quite powerful and you could nerf maneuver a lot. (Kind of 2 modes, sprint mode just forward with slight adjustments for lancing, and walk mode where you can go into any direction at roughly footmans speed).


-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage.

Sometimes you die too. I don't know exactly what causes it, it doesn't seem to be height (I survived literal 3km falls, but also died on only 10m).

-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman.

Haha. The worst are actually those that see "wtf that guy is now going to 1vs1 vs me" start running and backstab 3 of your archers. And then complain about how horses can only backstab people.

[Miralay]

I'm sorry but this is a fail thread. Cavalry has its own problems and if you're having trouble with fighting against cav with pike, just go and practice on servers like everybody else

[Tears of Destiny]

Torb is a damn fine melee user who kicks everyone's ass. Of course he cleans your clock after he is dismounted. Ramses and Cyranule are two other "cav" players that I can think of who are also more dangerous on foot then mounted.

Meh.

EDIT:
How Fallen_Tears_of_Revelations kills cav.
Either one shot both the horse and the cav in one go by thrusting through the horse neck and into the rider's body, OR, if the cav is stopped then quickly drop the pike and do a low left to right swing with the poleaxe sweeping towards the feet of the horse and killing it. Proceed to then do an overhead or right to left swing on the helpless rider sprawling on the ground. Type out "GET FUCKED" in chat.

[Kenji]

EDIT:
How Fallen_Tears_of_Revelations kills cav.
Either one shot both the horse and the cav in one go by thrusting through the horse neck and into the rider's body, OR, if the cav is stopped then quickly drop the pike and do a low left to right swing with the poleaxe sweeping towards the feet of the horse and killing it. Proceed to then do an overhead or right to left swing on the helpless rider sprawling on the ground. Type out "GET FUCKED" in chat.

Yikes, I'm glad me and my tin horse haven't heard that from you yet

[PieParadox]

I think you'd be a fool to say cavalry isn't overpowered. But not so overpowering that the game balance is completely destroyed. They are so many pros and so little cons to using a horse. Its basically a bonus you pay money for.

It's basically "OP" in the same kind of idea that veterans with all heirlooms are better off than newer players with no looms. Not a game breaking mechanic but simply overpowered since game balance is not easy to balance in this game of so many variables, from the RPG element, etc.

[Torben]

anybody ever thought about the sheer fun of the speed everythong goes down with a horse?  flying across the map,  pinpointing turns,  standing on one side of a field challenging 10 enemy cav against u alone,  swirling and twisting and taking down as many as you can and,  with some luck,  even surviving.  its a fuckin thrill to  ride a fast horse if skilled.  thats why i do it,  thats why i love this game.  thats why i was sad when the horse heirloom nerf made my courser slower.
 this aint got nothin to do with pikes n blocking and what not,  of course.  well.  try it.  do it and than come back and say cav needs a nerf.

[Torben]

btw.  i like comparing cav to planes in other games.  ever hear a tank yell:  nerf that messerschmitt!?

meh.  and ya,  tears is saying what to do,  wonder why people dont figure it.

[Felix]

From footman's perspective it looks sooo terrible. I play cav. I can assume you, that i can rarely block strikes coming after i was stopped. And i almost never do even 10 steps after being dehorsed.
After my horse is stopped, i always turn it's head away from the pikemen and block the upcoming strike with my shield. Though, yeah, sometimes it's kinda stupid - you clearly should've hit the horse, but somehow the invisible shield force protects it. Though, i can assure, it doesn't happen always.

Might make some quotes

-good maneuver horses can evage ranged attacks at mid-range true it is. i say - nerf arabians
-good lance cav can couch you in 2sec, and thrust two consecutive times in 3sec. warband engine. if one wants to be totally unbiased - a footman can kill like 5 men in 3 sec. slash, slash, slash, slash...
-good maneuver horses stay maximum 2sec "stunned" when they run into a wall, or a pike. They're out of reach in a bit more than 2 attacks. nerf arabians.
-slow horses can bump you twice, while staying on you. engine
-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman. that's your problem. be aware, assertive and quick. this one looks more like whining to me
-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage. additional code will be required (like in Rus 13 mod, where rider can die from fall impact
-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction. why not? shield gives footman force field as well.
-when your horse dies, you'll fall, sometimes slide on a few meters, or even teleport bug to a different place that where people think you are, and switch weapon/bring a shield while being smashed on the ground. Don't ask me how you do that, i'm still trying to figure it out. yeah. i am against it too. make it impossible to bring out next weapon while being on ground, though i think it's hardcoded
-when a pikeman stops your horse, you can actually still stab him, sometimes killing him. Works with a 1hander slash too, providing good timing/luck. don't see anything odd here. you stopped the horse, ye, but there's a rider on top it and he's still alive.
-when succesfully killing a horseman charging you, without hurting the horse, the horse still bumps you, and can even kill you. When that happens, it counts as if it's the player that killed you, and not a random horse. this one looks more like rage and whine 
-you can chamber lances with a good overhead or thrust with a good timing, but you'll always be out of range anyway if the cav is not too bad. So just downblock for the same effect, less dangerous. ...so?
-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman. very biased. most cavalrymen go down while being on ground. if he was able to survive... why not? or do you intend to make all dehorsed cav crippled on foot?

Bah, here you come, horse haters 

[Tennenoth]

Also like those arrows between your eyes Torben?   

As an archer, I find it fairly easy to dehorse cavalry but as you know these days the autobalance is my major bugbear because of the fact that if there are entire clans of cavalry, not matter how good or bad they might be, they will slaughter the enemy due to the sheer number of them and the fact that they can knock you down with as little as grazing on your forehead!

I'm not complaining but the guys in the Guild ts have heard me say some bad things about being ganked by cav, i've taken down 8/9 cavarlymen from their horses before and there are still more running around while we had none in our team.

Once the autobalance (hopefully this is going to happen) takes into account what equipment or wpf you're using (ranged/cav/melee) along with the normal autobalance I think a lot of my troubles will be gone. That's a sort of personal rant there.

With regards to the horsefield (had to) when blocking yourself is rather annoying, but the worst has to be the arrows being blocked (as an archer) when you hit the horse in it's head to take the bugger down, but instead they still trample you giving you stars comically spinning around your head before the rider comes round with insane speed (normally before you've even gotten up) and has bump slashed/stabbed you. (They don't normally but that gets annoying, usually they're pretty useless and proceed to harrass you for 2 minutes by bumping you and swinging at you wildly like some sort of rabid dog before you finally trap them in a wall or something to drop them and run away like a coward that you really are just to put two fingers up saying "haha, now who's the fast one?!")

Not really had any other problems other than ubundance of horses these days, faar too many!

*QQ over.*