Archers

[MouthnHoof]

There is only one thing i truly hate about archers, when they shoot into the mele.

This
and archers camping nearly inaccessible places
and archers camping a mile away from combat being completely useless / not defending the flag, but at least these types do not interfere with my game since both sides have enough of those.
and just shear number of them while the shield bubble has been reduced - "hate archers, get a shield" does not hold against hordes of them.

I think that it is safe to generalize that the signature trait of a bad archer is that his self preservation is the dominant factor in his game style.

[Thomek]

FACT: I originally created Ninjas to deal with what I saw as a heavy influx of archers.. Since the dev's didn't deal with them back then I wanted to create a clan dedicated to killing them. They were at ridiculously OP at certain points in cRPG existence, and I pride myself with being at the forefront of most of the Archers nerfs! :-D

Right now.. I think they are pretty much balanced as a class, although certain Archers with loomed bows and arrows are deadly powerful and accurate. The best Archers frequently top the scoreboard, but not like the famous ones used to do like: Njord(?) POLLY_Tor, Nebun, Birdman etc etc.. Some of them seemed to have homing arrows. (Still I don't quite understand how Bulzur could hit me the other day.. I need to work on my random walk routine I think. (More random!)

In stead of an Archer nerf I would like to see an Athletics buff or weight revision on speed somehow. Need to do my tests and research.

To the OP:
Archery is by far the "easiest" class for a beginning player. You don't have to get up and close with experienced cRPG players who knows all the angles, with big loomed swords.. But. I would absolutely recommend starting out as a 2h and get over with it. Knowing the melee mechanics, and being a good dueler will make you much tougher to kill, and give you more time with the bow and more options on positioning as an archer.

Of course other players hate Archers, since to most of them, they represent a "random factor" destroying what is perceived as "skill". They need to understand that "skill" extend to where you are, and how you move at any given point in a battle, be it duel or transport.

Another reason for the Archer hate is that many of them shoot into duels.. Countless times I've been TK'd by an archer shooting into a duel between me and an enemy armored shielder. Since my strategy against shielders often depend on me getting behind them, it is always a lot of circling.. The archer is simply risking my life on my behalf, in order for him to "help" or get a killsteal.

Also.. the further away an archer is, the more dangerous he is to friendlies, because of arrow flight time. (The longer the range, the more you have to be able to look into the future)

On the other hand.. Archery is boring! At least to me.. Perhaps it starts to get interesting when you have played so much that you start to "predict" the battle and the minute movements of other players, i don know. I'm sure it's nice to load up your archer after a long day at work, fire up a joint and just left click a bit. :-D

Archer Hour lasts from 12-01 am in the night to about 3. After that it's only the hardcore no-lifers left, and the server becomes more playable.

In the end.. High ping is a good excuse to go archery. Then I do understand.. But if you have a ping of <50 try to enjoy the amazing melee mechanics, and get some adrenaline kicks.

[Ylca]

The reason people have so many problems with so many classes is they'd like to play a team game as a single player game where they are the sole hero.

Notice how people complain when people retreat into their supporting force, gaining a kill without dying?

Notice how people complain about getting shot with a bow, when shields are readily available?

Notice how people complain about overpowered cavalry when they get lanced in an open field miles away from their team?

I could keep going, but basically the main problem with complaints boils down to a "Why can't i be the hero every time!"

Too many archers? I'm a shielder, i walk towards them laughing my rear off. Cav is cutting us down? Hey there's a guy over there with a pointy stick, perhaps i should support him until the cavalry is all dead. Oh dear a plated battle tank with a 2 hander? Perhaps i should not engage in glorious 1v1 combat with someone who can take about 8 more hits than i can, fall back and return with one or two other buddies, or better yet go find an archer and cover him while he plinks away.

Most complaints could simply be responded to with this "But where were your teammates when all this was going on? Why weren't you with them?"

This isn't a movie and you can't be the star. Most builds have a counter and most build have a complementary. Avoid your counter, keep track of your complementary that's how battles are won and fun is had.

You can't complain that STR builds are the flavor of the month because no one forced you to choose a strength build. Plenty of people happily run circles around slow folk with their high athletics builds (though ath does not give near as much of a speed boost as it could) and that's the joy of this game.

When you create your character you can be whatever you want? Didn't choose a shield? Welp don't complain about arrows plunking you when you're solo. Didn't choose a 2 hander? Don't complain about not having massive raw power. Didn't choose  a pike? Well don't complain about cav.

No one chose your character but you. People complaining about other people's classes are really complaining about their lack of teamwork and their apparently poor decision for a character. If you want to have fun choose a class that can handle the challenges you face well or learn to rely on and work with teammates.

I'm not sure why this even has to be pointed out, but it's a bit important as the same people who say "Archers are overpowered because they kill my 10PS 2hander that moves like a turtle but kills in one hit" are the same people in the suggestions forum trying to "fix" archery and work on "balance".

Balance does not mean that you win every engagement, nor that every matchup is even a remotely fair one. A 2hander looming over an archer isn't a fair fight, but then again neither is an archer shooting at a 2hander from across the field.

Get over this hero of the day mentality so that we can actually work on balancing real issues, instead of petty personal gripes.

[Adrian]

Haters just gonna hate......

With that being said archery is just one of those playstyles that the "simple minded players" are always going to whine about. The sad thing though is the fact that archery is bitched about probably more than any other class that i've seen in the game, especially now that throwers have been nerfed. People groan and cry just so hard when it comes to the archer class and it takes a lot more flak than it deserves.

A lot of players love to complain about how archers fire into melee friendly firing their teammates causing them to die when in most cases that player was getting their ass handed to them and a ranged player attempted to assist them, but made a mistake and accidentally wounded them instead of the enemy. This happens, accidental team hits/team kills always will. The sad part of this is that most players receive large amounts of melee team hits aswell while fighting. In my personal experience i actually get team hit by melee probably 3x as much as i do by any archer. Yet people will always choose to rage at the range, but I have come to accept this and will still continue to help teammates by stunning enemies while they are engaged in melee combat.

As far as archers running from enemies I fail to see the argument here. Archers are a RANGED class believe it or not. If I am able to kite opponents by simply running a few paces then turning and shooting at some stupid tin can build with very low athletics then hells yes i'm sure going to do it. Why would a strength built melee player expect any archer to engage them in melee combat. That's literally like asking the melee player to pick up a bow off the ground and fight the archer in ranged combat, its just plain stupid. Now are there times when an archer should accept defeat or give up the run? Yes of course. In situations where say a 2 slot bow archer with a 0 slot hammer is the only player remaining against a large force chasing them then yeah I would say your probably beaten and should except your fate. But if I have teammates alive you best believe i'm going to kite you all the way to them while firing arrows into your chest on the way there.

Anyway, in the end everyones going to hate whatever causes them the most grief while playing, truth is that people need to except that you win some and you lose some. There's a counter to almost every class in the game. An Archer with a long bow that can actually aim will annihilate a slow tin can chasing them, while that same archer will get his stuff pushed in by say a good cav player who keeps pressuring them or flanks them when they're distracted or running away. These are the things that make this game great, the diversity in classes and how you choose to build your character will obviously effect your strengths and weaknesses out in the field when fighting. How a player chooses to negate their weaknesses is up to them recognizing them first, complaining about a class that occasionally counters your own wont really get you anywhere.

With all this being said, I just want to close with a message to all the players who despise archers. Even though archers have been nerfed, we're still here bitches and always will be. Cry all you want because the dedicated ranged players have taken this much hatred already and are still in the servers shooting you in the face and I personally don't intend to stop due to the occasional ranting about how much people hate "ranged baddies". So haters please just keep hating.

[Kafein]

I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.

Because of this, it is actually impossible for a mainstream cav to attack an archer up front, even alone and on flat terrain. Longbow or strongbow, both will headshot the horse.

So basically you need a very good distraction even for archers. If there are 2 or 3 archers grouping up (which happens often), any attack angle will fail.

Shields have a different problem as an "anti-archer" force. First, they are slow. A shielder can hardly ever kill a decent archer running away. Second, they have to face all the melee that get in the way. As they are slow, they can't just run to the archers without fighting the melee. They have to use their shield to protect themselves from arrows anyway, so -30% speed iirc. And third, many shields have very little coverage (actually even some of the tier 4 shields cover less than what the model shows, especially on the sides), which makes spread archers very hard to reach before being shot to death.

All in all, archers usually never die if their team doesn't loose. An archer killed by a melee in the middle of a round was probably tunnel-visionning, away from his teammates or just being a noob.

So yeah, my point is, archers have little to no effective counter, yet are very effective killing machines.

[Spurdospera]

I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.

I can see that you haven´t even tried out archery.

[Ylca]

I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds.

This line negated the entirety of your post and shows that you have only played an archer in native, not CRPG. The reticle "close" time for the Strongbow, Longbow, and Warbow is 1.5 seconds. There's the time it takes to draw, then a 1.5 second window of accuracy before having to fire or redraw. You have no idea what you're talking about and you're tossing out words like you do, one of the major problems with any discussion of mechanics in this game.

[karasu]

I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.

I think you're confusing things with Crossbows. In case you haven't tried archery in cRPG, on mouse 1 pressing, specially with longbow p.e., you have something like 2 seconds or more until the reticule gets to the maximum accuracy point, which doesn't actually stops at that point, and goes back to the opening process.

There are two types or players regarding this situation with reticule. Those who hold the mouse button and release only when they have a clear and sure shot, preventing all types of mistakes, and those who actually only press once the mouse button, and the arrow releases automatically at that maximum accuracy point, with the high risk of getting team hits, or constant misses.

In Crossbows, if you hold down the mouse button, and stand still, the reticule stands always at maximum accuracy, no timer involved. If you move the mouse slowly, no fast movements, the reticule will stay at that maximum accuracy point. If you do a fast movement it will widen a bit going back to maximum accuracy when you stop the movement.

Hope this was of any help, and I can fraps these explained details/situations in case of any confusion, cause fortunately, I know what I'm talking about since my main is an archer and one of my multiple alts is a dedicated crossbowman (which has no problems in topping scores with arbalest on battle servers, no gloating intended, just facts about balancing).

[Peasant_Woman]

Archers are fine. Even if you can't outright counter them (shields) you can at least not make it easy for them.

Heres how to beat most archers, straight from the ninjas mouth;

(click to show/hide)

Be mindful of WHERE THE ARCHERS ARE and place yourself accordingly, don't rush off to fight in plain sight of that roof full of archers. Get some buddies and ambush them or ask your archers to kindly stop shooting the enemy melee who currently are no threat to them and kill the enemy archers, teamwork wins battles more often than being a hero does.
 When closing on an archer, dodge and weave with erratic movements but do keep an eye on them, if they are clever they'll stop leading on you and aim still waiting for you to dodge into thier reticule, at this point you run towards them to keep the pressure on and avoid stepping into thier reticule. This gets harder the more players there are shooting at you yes, but melee fighting also gets harder the more players there are. Once you are <5ft from an archer you see the good ones separated from the terrible. If you are beaten in melee by a single archer, congratulations you either met a player who is simply better than you at the game, or need to go practice more melee.

[Keshian]

I hate archers because of the meta-game shift from heavy Agility melee to heavy STR no agility.
An agility based melee has no chance anymore in a duel agaisnt another melee'er (since STR is so OP right now for melee).

Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.

This has caused more str infantry to do cav/infantry hybrids (with 12~agi) and now cav map are fucking unplayable as a melee'r with 5000 archers and 5000 cavs

On top of that there's nothing you can do agaisn't 2 archers as a melee, you can outplay 2+ melee'r but if there's a chance you get ranged youre fucked, so fuck all of you.

-kekeeke

I fully agree.  I abhor camping, but finding myself forced to because often 30-50% of the server will be cav on their silent ponies and I don't want to walk around with a constant downblock constantly turning around waiting to be couched to death by some cav guy going near full speed around a corner 30 feet away and hitting me 1 second later.  As an archer, most archers are actually pretty easy to doge their arrows with how slow draw speed is, often rather than waste a minute and my limited stack of arrows in an archer duel while we each dodge each other's slow arrows (plus its a pain to archer duel with effective archer wpf of 127 against someone with 165 wpf with a much higher draw speed), I will just dodge and weave (8 athletics) toward the 2-3 archers shooting at me and pull out a 2-slot 2hander and kill them in their light armor in 1-2 hits.  Then go back to using arrows to kill horses and stun tincans in fights.  Knowing how often I do this, its odd how many 2handers/polearmers complain about archers as often they are some of the easiest kills in melee with only a 0 slot weapon to defend themselves. 

Now strength builds with heavy armor (often those complaining as too slow to dodge well) are a pain to fight as you can shoot them 8-12 times and they dont die (unless longbow/xbow) or you can slash them 5-7 times with a sword to same effect or just get that teammate with the bec or 1 handed bec (pick) who will kill them in a couple hits to attack them while you distract or arrow stun the strength build.  Very little disadvantage to swing speed with a  strength build right now so it proliferates, and with far fewer pikes and throwers, much easier to get kills as cav so they proliferate and then you see a bunch of archers camping hoping to kill some of these classes before they get too close.

[kursad]

The reason people have so many problems with so many classes is they'd like to play a team game as a single player game where they are the sole hero.

You can argue about archery for hours (actually years, nerf archery arguments have been coming up since the first day of native beta) but this is the main reason of the problem. People just want to be the hero they watch in movies and arrows never hit the hero in movies.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

Lol everybody mad.

[ThePoopy]

  NERF!

[Murmillus_Prime]

-1 Airstrike fired.

And no keshian that hot asian chick picture didn't save you from the bombs.

[Lech]

What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?

Kill horses instead of hunting peasant.