+30 hp for all horses, -10 speed and maneuverability

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

But no, Mr Lorenzo just takes this opportunity of an error from me, to say that this archer plays like this (and since he did that one time, he probably does that all the time, right) and this his arguments are irrelevant. If you can't defend against a person's argument, try to attack the person, hey ?
Hate you.

Love you!
Your actions make my arguments come to life

Its not attacking the person if you point out they don't actively attempt to avoid the situations they are whining about Its just relevant!

[Keshian]

I don't know by how much, or how cav should be nerfed, only that they should be less efficient.

Most of all I would see a damage risk (from zero to break the neck) to the rider when he falls off, but that is wse stuff, and not implementable in the near future.

There are many ways to do this:

1. Give us back some sheath-able longer spears. (I.ex Bamboo for weaboos + a Euro-ish one)
2. Buff throwing somehow..
3. Nerf cav maneuverability, but buff the HP enough so they can survive the same amount of attempted shots. (If it took 10 shots to down a cav now 5 hits 5 misses, it should take 10 shots after nerf if there was 7 hits / 3 misses. The extra hits come from less maneuverability.)

Torp.. Awareness.. There are situations especially in towns, where cav rounds a corner, and I don't care if you have 12y old reactions: You got no chance. Certain situations in cRPG is already blasting anyones awareness-sensors hehe. You have cav-ranged-infantry-blocking.. etc etc.   (Why I try to avoid the clusterfucks and create 1vs1 situations for myself..) :-D

Cav was always the best Ninja out there. Superfast->1hit kills->Quick Getaway

I really like this idea.  The archer-horse balance remains the same, but the silent predator from nowhere routine will no longer allow a bunch of free easy kills.  Instead you actually have to act as real calvary and charge 1-2 people at a time or if there are more organized infantry you have to actually coordinate and use team tactics as calvary (one of my biggest annoyances is people using the excuse that if the other team only organized themselves cavalry couldn't get so many kills, but the fact is the cav is also unorganized, organizing both wouldn't remove the basic unfairness of a class that has complete control of the battlefield by moving 20 times faster than all infantry).

Just change the dynamics so people being cavalry have survivable horses that don't have such insane maneuverability and speed combined with 6-7 riding skill bonuses.  One possible solution is using the new tool to change code chadz talked about to make all the riding skill add to hitpoints of horses and unlocks horses like strength does for xbows, but doesn't add to speed or maneuver.  Being able to dance a horse at high speed is simply not balanced with the current dynamics of generally very slow, non-pike carrying, non-throwing infantry. 

[Torp]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

ok Horselovers, don't get carried away.

OP moderated his stance, and we have since discussed other ways to nerf it.. OF COURSE a blunt nerf across the line of 30hp and -10 speed is a bit ungentle since cRPG is almost at the right spot when it comes to balance generally. Actually the balancers deserve a bouquet of flowers for holding out and keep reading these threads.. We are also getting closer and closer to *Balance*. (Something mind you, is an extremely complex process. Look how long blizzard keep balancing starcraft for instance.. It takes years of playtesting, and we have barely started exploring OP-Combos for strategus battles!)

The closer we get to complete balance, the more whiny these posts are going to look. The anti-whine posts doesn't understand that this is a kind of feedback to the devs.. Taking the temperature of the playerbase.

Now back on topic:
Horselovers must understand that with such great power like choosing your battles, 1-shotting people, unblockable attacks, Higher point of view, Shield that protects the horse, speed to be anywhere when you want to etc.. There must be some serious downside to it.

This downside should be that if you don't think before you charge, or do stupid things, you get killed. If you use your horse in unfavorable terrain you loose.. These super-maneuverable horses you got make sure you don't get punished enough for doing mistakes. You can circle around just out of range, go in and out of battle, precision bump people etc etc..

Speed is fine, with less maneuver it will be risky to race around full speed. Buff HP (or rather armor) somewhat, I dunno how much, but enough that arrows won't shoot the new unmaneuverable horses to pieces in 5 secs.

this would just take the skill out of being cav, leaving the cavalry to guess whether or not the enemy is aware of his presence. That leaves us with 4 scenarios:

1. The cav does not charge and the enemy is aware of his presence
The cav had a lucky guess and didnt get killed, but didnt kill anyone either. The inf thinks 'Oh well, didnt get the cav' and waits for another one. The cav will never know whther his guess was wrong or right, and can proceed to guess on the next person he sees.

2. The cav does not charge and the inf is not aware of his presence
The cav guessed wrong and won't attack, while he infantry will never know he was there. The cav can proceed and guess on the next person he sees.

3. The cav charges, and the infantry is aware of his presence.
The cav goes full speed, trying to go for the kill before the infantry sees him. The infantry has already spotted him, and he turns around in order to face the horse. The cav cant do shit because his horse cant turn away, ad he can only wtch as it continues to ride straight into the enemy's weapon.
The cav guessed wrong and can try again next round.

4. The cav charges and the infantry is not aware of his presence.
The cav will only get a kill in this situation, and he won't die unless the infantry either ehar the hoves, or the cav cant turn away before getting in reach of another inf/group of inf. He had a lucky guess.
The cav guessed

This will make it all a game of guessing instead of skill. If you geuss right, yu get a kill, if you don't, you die/nothing happens.
I'm all in for adding more skill requirement to cav - but this is not the way to do it, sorry.

[Thomek]

Again, Torp you misunderstand and exaggerate.

Taking the skill out of cav? Are you joking? Sure it will be more difficult and more risky to dance around at high speeds like they do now. After the nerf/buff I'm talking about, sure you can dance, but you have to slow down a bit to do the dancing.

I'm not talking about horses just being able to go in a straight line.. Horses they use now, are racecars on a field, Ninjas in the towns, and fucking goats in the hills and mountains.

After a HP buff and Maneuverability Nerf, cav can worry less about projectiles, but needs to worry more about pikes. Hopefully they might do more teamwork as well.

[Magikarp]

Again, Torp you misunderstand and exaggerate.

Taking the skill out of cav? Are you joking? Sure it will be more difficult and more risky to dance around at high speeds like they do now. After the nerf/buff I'm talking about, sure you can dance, but you have to slow down a bit to do the dancing.

I'm not talking about horses just being able to go in a straight line.. Horses they use now, are racecars on a field, Ninjas in the towns, and fucking goats in the hills and mountains.

After a HP buff and Maneuverability Nerf, cav can worry less about projectiles, but needs to worry more about pikes. Hopefully they might do more teamwork as well.

Actually, blazing at full speed at opponents is the silliest thing you can do, youll lose way too much manouverability, you better damn well hit your opponent if you are going for such a risky move.

[Overdriven]

Again, Torp you misunderstand and exaggerate.

Taking the skill out of cav? Are you joking? Sure it will be more difficult and more risky to dance around at high speeds like they do now. After the nerf/buff I'm talking about, sure you can dance, but you have to slow down a bit to do the dancing.

I'm not talking about horses just being able to go in a straight line.. Horses they use now, are racecars on a field, Ninjas in the towns, and fucking goats in the hills and mountains.

After a HP buff and Maneuverability Nerf, cav can worry less about projectiles, but needs to worry more about pikes. Hopefully they might do more teamwork as well.

Most horsemen don't ride at full speed or even high speed. I think you have a misconception there. That's partly why their manoeuvrability is so good. Riding at slower speeds allows you to turn much faster. Only on the most open maps will most cav even consider full speed.

[Keshian]

Most horsemen don't ride at full speed or even high speed. I think you have a misconception there. That's partly why their manoeuvrability is so good. Riding at slower speeds allows you to turn much faster. Only on the most open maps will most cav even consider full speed.

But thats part of the point, their top speed is so high, even 75% for great maneuverability is still incredibly fast.  By reducing maximum speed, 75% will be lower more of an actual charging horse role instead of a motorcycyle that makes no noise but zooms in from nowhere.  By the way, CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO PRE-JANUARY WITH HORSES ACTUALLY MAKING NOISES SO WE CAN BE AWARE OF THEM WITHOUT CONSTANTLY SPINNING IN A CIRCLE 100% OF THE TIME!!!

[Magikarp]

But thats part of the point, their top speed is so high, even 75% for great maneuverability is still incredibly fast.  By reducing maximum speed, 75% will be lower more of an actual charging horse role instead of a motorcycyle that makes no noise but zooms in from nowhere.  By the way, CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO PRE-JANUARY WITH HORSES ACTUALLY MAKING NOISES SO WE CAN BE AWARE OF THEM WITHOUT CONSTANTLY SPINNING IN A CIRCLE 100% OF THE TIME!!!

Slow down now, no need to start getting emotional again. Let's have a caps lock free conversation, shall we?

Believe me, at top speed, we get more than a mere 25% penalty to manouverability.

At the moment the only reason I see for using the fragile Arabian and the slightly less fragile courser, is for the looks or the money that you save on your repair bill.

THe only things that need to be done, are imo: -better sound when cav approaches, -less upkeep for armoured horses

[Bonze]

Again, Torp you misunderstand and exaggerate.

Taking the skill out of cav? Are you joking? Sure it will be more difficult and more risky to dance around at high speeds like they do now. After the nerf/buff I'm talking about, sure you can dance, but you have to slow down a bit to do the dancing.

I'm not talking about horses just being able to go in a straight line.. Horses they use now, are racecars on a field, Ninjas in the towns, and fucking goats in the hills and mountains.

After a HP buff and Maneuverability Nerf, cav can worry less about projectiles, but needs to worry more about pikes. Hopefully they might do more teamwork as well.

Wow sounds  like a big fail,  like nerf throwing ..in 1 vs 1  situations u had no chance with a weapon under 110 range and less then 43-45 maneuverability against the warp 9 dancing footsoldiers and archer my old friends  .  Another  internal cav buff for horse  lancers and my old friendgnes HAs,  how dumb is that? Whats the point of that?

[img]

The closer we get to complete balance, the more whiny these posts are going to look. The anti-whine posts doesn't understand that this is a kind of feedback to the devs.. Taking the temperature of the playerbase.

.

That means that the "devs " never nerf her favorite spam class.

[EponiCo]

But thats part of the point, their top speed is so high, even 75% for great maneuverability is still incredibly fast.  By reducing maximum speed, 75% will be lower more of an actual charging horse role instead of a motorcycyle that makes no noise but zooms in from nowhere.  By the way, CAN WE PLEASE RETURN TO PRE-JANUARY WITH HORSES ACTUALLY MAKING NOISES SO WE CAN BE AWARE OF THEM WITHOUT CONSTANTLY SPINNING IN A CIRCLE 100% OF THE TIME!!!

They didn't change the sound system at all.
Btw. I'd really like to see how you figure this charging role. Anyone up to that, I'll be in spec and pay your repaircost for a destrier or warhorse and you ride around at the speed and turning you think it should have and do charges.

[Keshian]

Slow down now, no need to start getting emotional again. Let's have a caps lock free conversation, shall we?

Believe me, at top speed, we get more than a mere 25% penalty to manouverability.

At the moment the only reason I see for using the fragile Arabian and the slightly less fragile courser, is for the looks or the money that you save on your repair bill.

THe only things that need to be done, are imo: -better sound when cav approaches, -less upkeep for armoured horses

Misunderstood - going 75% of max speed so that you still have high maneuverability near maximum.

The othe rpost, yes it did get changed, people were complaining that horse's hooves sounds were interfering with the other battle sounds and often you would hear hooves while they were still far away (I never had any trouble distinguishing between close and far and could time dodging very well just on sound).  Currently the horses hooves do not travel more than a couple feet away from the horse which is fail, like silent sharks in the ocean instead of heavy lumbering beasts of burden.

[LordRichrich]

No, it's far too easy to hit cav with a bow or xbow already, make us any slower and they'll land bodyshots on the rider.
And stop using loomed horses as an example, most cavalry use unloomed horses, you can't do across the board balance based on loomed horses because you'd just kill non-loomed horses

You know what else has increase post-patch? Dave style crossbowers. Just though i'd point it out

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

tl;dr-- see my horse burf thread. In it I propose a bump/nerf for cavalry, whereby survivability is increased at the expense of speed and maneuver with a strong emphasis on maneuver. Less ninja-horse bundle of sticksry, more actual fighting.

Regarding speed: it shouldn't be nerfed too much. Why? As LordRichrich points out, horses are very vulnerable to projectile weapons. I'd like to not move at the speed of a turtle and become a pincushion. All the HP buffing in the world won't save a horse from a baker's dozen of arrows lodged in its ass.

By the way cavalry is perfectly (almost) balanced within the current, large framework of cRPG. The whine (mine included) challenges the way in which that balance comes about.

Perhaps all these suggestions are stupid. Maybe armored horses (the slow, survivable kind) need to be affordable. Then cavalry players would actually have a choice as to their play style. Up close and personal infantry support, or pussy courser lancer? We might even see diversity. I do not propose CHEAP tank-horses, merely AFFORDABLE tank-horses.

[EponiCo]

The othe rpost, yes it did get changed, people were complaining that horse's hooves sounds were interfering with the other battle sounds and often you would hear hooves while they were still far away (I never had any trouble distinguishing between close and far and could time dodging very well just on sound).  Currently the horses hooves do not travel more than a couple feet away from the horse which is fail, like silent sharks in the ocean instead of heavy lumbering beasts of burden.

Where exactly do you see this? I don't see any changes in the files regarding horse sound at all.
Also, what you describe is exactly how it is like, you constantly hear friendly horses from far away, but an enemy behind you is completely silent, and that problem has been around since native.

[Apostata]

to OP
then add +10 to charge for every horse and I am okay with that.