just a thought on builds, the basics

[tankmen]

Pure strength, by this I mean 27 strength at the least. For the most part this build is slow but only needs the enemy to make ONE mistake, and in most circumstances they get killed in one swing. Where as the pure strength user is able to make numerous amounts of mistakes in blocking and keep going.

18/18, Or any build that isn't 6-9 more than the other. For the most part these builds are average hitting, and can take a decent amount of hits, depending on there higher attribute. In other words the enemy they are fighting could make a few mistakes and still survive, and the user could survive a decent amount of hits as well, fair both ways.

Pure Agility, 27 Agility is the least one could have to be called Agility build. This build the user sacrifices the ability to "crutch". They can not use plate and if they mess up a block they die in one hit at the most. Their enemy can make numerous mistakes because the Agility user does next to no damage.

In simpler terms

Pure Strength = Easy mode
18/18 = normal mode
Pure Agility = hard mode

Just my thoughts on builds, there's a reason pure Agility builds don't top the score boards very often.

I'm open to others thoughts on this.

[Cyclopsided]

So true

[tankmen]

i think you said that cause your agility build 

[Gorath]

So true

I'll say it then.  And I've played an "Average" build forever (18/18 or something akin to that) so I've seen the balance go back and forth rather well from agi domination, to current STR build dictatorship.

[Socrates]

AGI truly use to be good in the old cRPG days.

[Cyclopsided]

i think you said that cause your agility build 

I have been playing mostly strength builds. The only actual agi character i have was a gimmick CanYouBlockDown. And Brunchlady this generation but i haven't played it enough to hit 31 in the past 3 months!
I duel with strength builds and they do the best by far. No downside in 1v1 combat except location of battle, which I would still have to choicefully chase an agi character, which I don't.
-->and they are even better in battle, and even BETTER in siege.

I'll say it then.  And I've played an "Average" build forever (18/18 or something akin to that) so I've seen the balance go back and forth rather well from agi domination, to current STR build dictatorship.

AGI truly use to be good in the old cRPG days.

We had generational wpf stacking back then. That was completely different. Some poeple hit 400+ WPF and had warp speed swings, but it was more generation than agi still. Also, less % of the population could manual block back then. Now 80+% of NA can manual block at the least 5 hits if they aren't just playing on autopilot and actually are conscious.

[Christo]

Pure Strength = Easy mode
18/18 = normal mode
Pure Agility = hard mode

I have to agree with you.

I always used a 18/18 build, and after every patch I saw how other people got stronger, or weaker. 18/18 will always remain the "normal" mode as you stated it, because it has best of both worlds. (and I can be cav and footman at the same time, woo.)

So, +1.

There were days when agility was the king, though, and STR was mediocre, but now it's the total opposite since the WPF nerf.

[Keshian]

Now 80+% of NA can manual block at the least 5 hits if they aren't just playing on autopilot and actually are conscious.

I think you overestimate the typical cRPG player... most are not conscious.

[Digglez]

raising the STR requirements on weapons was a bit mistake.  they need to lower many of them back down.  I would love to see AGI based requirements on weapons or have certain ones get AGI based dmg bonuses, say thrusting weapons in particular.

frankly the game needs a 3rd stat: constitution, to even builds out.  So dumb that STR contributes to HP and resiliency

[Thomek]

Agree..

Since wpf started to get taxed/capped so aggressively we don't have the 200+ wpf agi chars anymore. My most fun char was my 10 Athletics Jarid-throwing superfast Ninja at lvl40.. Of course that wasn't fair for new players.

Nowadays, heavy STR-builds frequently one-shot me, and people in much heavier armor, with greatswords.. It feels a bit like being cheated. IMO it should be balanced so you could take at least 1 hit before you go down in most cases. I would accept it for the heaviest and most unwieldy weapons, but not for all-rounders like greatswords.

I'm also for softening the wpf penalty at higher levels a little bit, or make the curve a bit flatter. (Too much would require rebalancing of everything once again)

Anyway, I would say AGI is still more fun to play, as you get many more tactical options rather than jogging to the battle and start spamming.

* Diggles - No, having str-requirements is very important to not let agi-chars get the flambies i.ex. Long, extremely powerful weapon + much more wpf is deadly, and perhaps unbalanced. But having STR-requirements, when STR is currently the most powerful choice defeats the point. Buff agi pls!

edit - Also want to say that the weight influence on running speed needs to be leveled a bit higher. Now your athletics gets eaten up almost entirely if you have as much as 12-15 weight. I thought the idea of it was to get the tanks, not everyone not in a T-shirt.

[bilwit]

I've been dancing around balanced type builds and it really seems like the more strength you give up, the less utility you get in return. My first gen was 21/18 and it definitely served me a lot better than the 15/21 build I used after retiring. The marginal benefit of 7 WM and 7 ATH is not enough to justify 5 PS. I'm going for 18/18 now. I feel like I could fight better with 21/18 but I like the versatility of having an extra 5 skill points to dump into riding.

[Socrates]

We had generational wpf stacking back then. That was completely different. Some poeple hit 400+ WPF and had warp speed swings, but it was more generation than agi still. Also, less % of the population could manual block back then. Now 80+% of NA can manual block at the least 5 hits if they aren't just playing on autopilot and actually are conscious.

Not that. Older days. There was no requirements on anything. IE holding a long bardiche with 15 STR was viable while rest AGI. Also WPN Master worked as in early stages. Got WPN Master early more points you got to spend. Also it costed less points for 1 point of proficiency in the higher levels than now. IE like 150+ is like a lot of points not sure the exact numbers, but back then it was way easy to go over 150 with the old Weapon Master point calculations.

[Kenji]

I think you overestimate the typical cRPG player... most are not conscious.

Or they get battleweary too soon, and lost the will to fight on.

Often happens in my case .

[Tor!]

Pure STR is also powerful in the way that it is extremely boring to fight sometimes  . So boring that you try something stupid / crazy and end up getting oneshotted cus you already fought a whole minute in slow motion, and just want to get it all over with 

[Cyclopsided]

I think you overestimate the typical cRPG player... most are not conscious.

I qualified it by saying if they were conscious
But yeah, so many players are just on autopilot grind mode... it is sad that crpg is that way. they aren't enjoying the battle, they are 'putting up with it' as they grind.
Pathetic. Should never be that way.
Instant level 30 is the best thing to have happened to this mod imo. Grinders can grind past for heirlooms and levels, ok. Sure. They can 'play' on autopilot and zone out too...