Author Topic: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!  (Read 3389 times)

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Offline Lanic0r

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2011, 09:41:02 pm »
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1. Range: Empirical studies
Nubert und me jointed the duel server and we checked out the range. I blocked and he swung (overhead, side swing and stab) with DGS. Next step was the way around until one of the lances reached danish greatsword´s range. Danish stab has a bit less range than light lance! So this are real facts right came up from the game itself.
2. Nubert has got a MW elegant poleaxe, so im sure he can read :D
3. "Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80 *According to waltF4 still accurate even with the new animation*"
what does +80 mean. it cant be a multiplier like 1.8 otherwise the length would be 223.
Please, if you explain this numbers i can implement this to the matrix.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2011, 09:47:50 pm »
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+80 as in it gives you 80 more reach, so if the weapon was 122 now it stabs for 202, if I read the report from Walt correctly.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
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Offline IG_Saint

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2011, 09:59:42 pm »
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+80 as in it gives you 80 more reach, so if the weapon was 122 now it stabs for 202, if I read the report from Walt correctly.

Yes. It's not precisely 80 though, but something around there.

As to Lanic0r's test, I'm guessing you did something wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woesVWoCtkM

That video shows a 117 reach practice longsword outranging a 182 reach scythe, so a 124 greatsword should easily outrange a 175 lance.

Offline Penitent

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 10:47:39 pm »
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Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...

Offline Seawied

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 10:52:35 pm »
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Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...

Polearms are more diverse and more universal. They're better at stopping horses and are altogether very competitive with 2h.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline BlackMilk

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2011, 10:57:06 pm »
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Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...
Yeaaaah,riiiiiight.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2011, 11:02:40 pm »
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Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...

Stop horses as well as stun the opponent longer.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Penitent

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2011, 11:06:10 pm »
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Polearms are more diverse and more universal. They're better at stopping horses and are altogether very competitive with 2h.

Damage is comparable
2h is faster
2h has more reach
pole can stop horses..oh wait 2h can do that too by hitting x.

I guess pole is more diverse because there are some super-long spears/pikes.   As a weapon class though, they seem to come up short (pun intended) when looking at Walt's attack length modifiers. :)

Offline Torp

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2011, 11:18:33 pm »
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imo Polearms are better for big battles, 2h's are better for duelling

Offline WaltF4

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2011, 11:40:10 pm »
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2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80 *According to waltF4 still accurate even with the new animation*

That test was preformed before the 0.223 patch, which included some modification to the two-hand weapon thrust. I know the speed of the thrust animation was reduced to be slower than the overhead and side slashes, but I have not tested the reach since the patch. However, the reach does seem to be similar.



1. Range: Empirical studies
Nubert und me jointed the duel server and we checked out the range. I blocked and he swung (overhead, side swing and stab) with DGS. Next step was the way around until one of the lances reached danish greatsword´s range. Danish stab has a bit less range than light lance! So this are real facts right came up from the game itself.

You will not get very precise reach measurement with two people both attacking each other. The distance the weapons travels between objects is different for attacks made at different angles. This is why players aim down at the ground or up into the air when thrusting at targets very close to themselves: it increases the distance the weapon collider travels before interacting with the hit box of the other player which is required for thrusts to do full damage. You should have one person attack a fixed target with both weapons using a fixed camera angle. You also need to be careful with the length of time a weapon is held before attacking as there seems to be variations in the weapon reach with held attacks verses quick attacks. The reach variation is on the order of less than 5 cm but would explain remarks on precision in the original reach study by Stabbing Hobo. I was working on a study that included reach measurements and it was requiring a macro program (that is no longer functioning on my computer  :() to input the attack command on a key being released rather than the standard key being pressed to prevent any hold time on the attacks. It also appears that the maximum reach of right-to-left and left-to-right attacks are not constant with the angle about the attacker so the tip of the weapon does not follow a circular arc. As such, the facing of the attacker relative to the defender will partial determine the reach.

Offline Kafein

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2011, 12:18:56 am »
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imo Polearms are better for big battles, 2h's are better for duelling

This.


To all the guys saying that polearms are clearly inferior to 2h, have you ever seen Leed playing on foot ? His poleaxe seems made of a platinum-iridium alloy with a ceramic blade.

Offline Lanic0r

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2011, 07:38:12 am »
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Cool stuff mate:)
Ye, there is a variation. I didnt write it down on the begining because most dont read anything, they just want to comment their OPINIONS xD
1. We were fix. I kept blocking on a fix position. He was for example overheading. The angel of overhead doesent matter ;D
Same with stab. In this case he chose the horizontal until he hit the block. I ingonred the variation of "5cm", wehn it hits after 5 swings it is its range, thats it.
2. If i put in this +80 , -15 etc. without validation, the matrix would say: danger 2h DGS is a much more overpowered weapon
3. We can validate the range togheter waltF4. Just send me a message for the meeting (OMG like in Outlook at work :D)

Offline Peasant_Woman

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2011, 08:06:51 am »
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Whether the target is blocking or not blocking seems to make a difference in reach too. If someone stabs at you with a spear and you are just outside their range but block anyway to be on the safe side, the spear will hit the block whereas if you hadn't blocked he would have only stabbed air.
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Offline Barracuda

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2011, 08:27:26 am »
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember someone saying that  a two hander and a polearm have different reactions to stun. Polearms of same weight stun weapons easier and also don't get stunned as easily. Does anyone have the formula of this?

I did a quick search in the forums but came up empty handed. It could've been in IRC or I've just been dreaming.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 08:46:57 am by Barracuda »

Offline Vibe

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Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2011, 08:35:34 am »
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I think you should spend less time thinking over item balance and spend more time dueling.

The way I see it you're just looking for an excuse because you suck at dueling.